from Bruce L Shelleyâs â Church history in plain languageâ:
Under âRise of the Megachurchâ
(1) These congregations seldom carry a denominational labelâŠâ The name was a symbol of their openness to people with diverse backgrounds and problems: divorce, addictions, and depression.â
(2) â worship and these large congregations was marked by fast-paced and enthusiastic, popular, religious music.â
(3) * this should be a particular interest to the PP audience*
â they were built around the attractive ministry of a magnetic preacher who possessed a win some personality.. Loyalty, what there was to be found in the gathering, was usually to the pastor, rather than to a denomination or congregation.â
(4) â these large churches seem to have the best that money could buy. Services were available for every imaginable need.â
There are many models of how churches operate, and Iâm wondering about the program-based church. The above seems to partially answer my question. The modern non denominational megachurch seems to be the source.
We Gen Xers have experienced it from a young age.
Iâm on a âmissionâ to examine the Gospels and the books of Acts and compare the modern church to what we see in those scriptures. And they are soooo different. Of course society is as well, but it seems modern church (especially those that focus on âprogramsââŠis there a better term?) seems incredibly different than what Acts describes.
All the recent talk about âthe systemâ on here has me pondering these things, as well as my need to help people know and grow in Christ.
Michael, I both see what youâre saying and see evidence quite to the contrary on a small scale anecdotal level.
re:
âEntrepreneurial projectsâ
Iâm so naĂŻve (perhaps) that I think, in 2022, that if I could just take you for a month long ride-along youâd see the world differentlyâŠ
But if I got the emails you received, heard the stories youâve heard, if I admired Bowden as much as you do, Iâd likely see the world through your eyes.
I appreciate your feedback.
And HT to you for the book recommendation i posted above.
The feeding of widows and orphans was a program…supervised by elders.
So were the financial projects…and the missions work.
If you stick to the book of Acts, you miss the big picture.
The picture is filled in with 1st Corinthians…and in both books you still see all sorts of issues with “organic “fellowships.
1 Cor 11 is not primarily about the Eucharist, but addresses class distinctions in the church.
The romanticization of the early church is fools gold.
I try to look at both all of the Bible, and history and my own experience and observations. And I have a very curious mind, with a fairly extensive ânetworkâ of friends and acquaintances. And still donât âunderstandââŠ.lol
As a standard rule, humans have a proclivity to sin…inside and outside the church, in history and today.
We make systems to be efficient and that ability is a gift from God.
The early church wasn’t pristine…and just got worse after the memory of Ananias and Sapphire faded…
If the Jesus People movement was the last great revival…it was led by Chuck Smith…who was the spiritual child of Sister Aimee…let the reader understand…
Michael,
I understand your point re: Aimee and Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith was a major figure during the Jesus Movement, but he was not the only one, even within Calvary Chapel. Other church groups in Southern California were experiencing an out pouring of the Holy Spirit in various ways. Particularly in the earlier years of the Jesus Movement, it was much more de-centralized. It became much more controllable, more hierarchical, the hippies got older, they divided into their different theological camps, and the day came when the music died.
For the record, I believe Simple Aimee came to us via Canada – like our VP
Simple Aimee had a ramp constructed in her sanctuary and rode in on her motorcycle…
Uuggghh
What I’m getting at is that all the defining marks of big evangelicalism sprang from Aimee…and I’m baffled at why she doesn’t get the attention she deserves.
Chuck was running from Foursquare when he ran into Lonnie Frisbee. It was hard for him so decouple from his roots. Though Lonnie had no organic connection to Aimee he carried the spiritual DNA and forced CC into more charismata than Chuck could bear. He later dubbed it charismania and pursued Zionism as a unifying standard. Chuck inherited a flood and proceeded to build levees to control the waters.
Foursquare is following suit. Having doused the free flow of Spirit gifting, they have gone full Wokeistan. They are swiftly transitioning the positional authority to those whose agenda is to partner with race essentialism. They are retraining their leaders to sit in silence as whiteness has to be opposed exposed and curtailed.
CRT is a programmatic capture of institutions before it is a reprogramming of dogma. Institutions are poor vehicles of Spirit long term but fabulous disseminators of ideology.
The spiritual heirs of Aimee are being driven out except for the international churches who, like Methodism, are more driven by passionate spirituality than social reconstruction. The true Seven Mountain occupiers are social justice warriors not revivalists.
I would know nothing of this whole thing if it were not for honest classical liberals who have been ground in the wheels of this movement. They are the prophets who warned me with the church was sleeping.
The matters I am raising about Foursquare are based on actual experiences of pastors who are being put to the tests of DEI orthodoxy, asked to be silent in online communities, displaced by superintendents who have never been pastors but carry the appropriate intersectional attributes, accused of racism without being allowed to face accusers.
I don’t deny right wing damnables, not least the prophetic liars, and the refusal to accept a failed election but institutional hegemony has very few havens left among conservatives.
Call it out if you see it …. we can have healthy discussions. I am game.
We attended a 4 Square church 25 years ago. We never got into the âcounterfeit revivalâ so we left when someone tried to push grandma backwards. They were careful never to mention Ms. Aimee at all and claimed credit to have spawned Chuck Smith. Visiting overseers were concerned about the number of people who got saved and about pressuring and promoting the Mr. and Mrs. Pastor to move on up the ladder within the worldwide organization.
Otherwise very good people I remember.
I think part of the answer to your query is that paradoxical things in Christian history make us uncomfortable. Charismatic things make us uncomfortable. She has both.
It’s all yours today…
When did churches become based on programs?
jtk,
I don’t understand the question.
What kind of programs are you talking about?
from Bruce L Shelleyâs â Church history in plain languageâ:
Under âRise of the Megachurchâ
(1) These congregations seldom carry a denominational labelâŠâ The name was a symbol of their openness to people with diverse backgrounds and problems: divorce, addictions, and depression.â
(2) â worship and these large congregations was marked by fast-paced and enthusiastic, popular, religious music.â
(3) * this should be a particular interest to the PP audience*
â they were built around the attractive ministry of a magnetic preacher who possessed a win some personality.. Loyalty, what there was to be found in the gathering, was usually to the pastor, rather than to a denomination or congregation.â
(4) â these large churches seem to have the best that money could buy. Services were available for every imaginable need.â
jtk,
That one is easy.
The birth of the modern church is in the 1920’s and its mother was Aimee Semple McPherson.
Anyone who hasn’t studied that remarkable woman hasn’t a clue as to the history of modern evangelicalism.
She had programs…lots of them.
Her “worship” services included massive musical and theatrical productions.
She used media like no one before her…and set the standard for being an early adopter of technology.
I could go on and on…
She is the fount from which what we see today flowed.
There are many models of how churches operate, and Iâm wondering about the program-based church. The above seems to partially answer my question. The modern non denominational megachurch seems to be the source.
We Gen Xers have experienced it from a young age.
Iâm on a âmissionâ to examine the Gospels and the books of Acts and compare the modern church to what we see in those scriptures. And they are soooo different. Of course society is as well, but it seems modern church (especially those that focus on âprogramsââŠis there a better term?) seems incredibly different than what Acts describes.
All the recent talk about âthe systemâ on here has me pondering these things, as well as my need to help people know and grow in Christ.
jtk,
If you think the church in Acts didn’t have programs…you’re reading it wrong.
Ahhhhhh yes, I know of here.
And she was fully of controversies too!
Are the two inextricably linked?đ
jtk,
Of course they are…because what evangelical churches are at the core are entrepreneurial projects based on the leaders personality…
Help me see them.
I see the feeding of widows and more.
I see the financial assistance.
I see (or read into it?) NATURAL organic fellowship that doesnât appear to be fakeâŠwhich seems different than some corners of church life.
Iâve seen fellowship done well as well as horribly.
Michael, I both see what youâre saying and see evidence quite to the contrary on a small scale anecdotal level.
re:
âEntrepreneurial projectsâ
Iâm so naĂŻve (perhaps) that I think, in 2022, that if I could just take you for a month long ride-along youâd see the world differentlyâŠ
But if I got the emails you received, heard the stories youâve heard, if I admired Bowden as much as you do, Iâd likely see the world through your eyes.
I appreciate your feedback.
And HT to you for the book recommendation i posted above.
The feeding of widows and orphans was a program…supervised by elders.
So were the financial projects…and the missions work.
If you stick to the book of Acts, you miss the big picture.
The picture is filled in with 1st Corinthians…and in both books you still see all sorts of issues with “organic “fellowships.
1 Cor 11 is not primarily about the Eucharist, but addresses class distinctions in the church.
The romanticization of the early church is fools gold.
What a mystery the Body of Christ can be!
I read about Johnny Mac and then have 37 years of church experience that looks nothing like that.
I know Christians that I have truckloads of respect for then know others that leave me scratching my headâŠ.
jtk,
I have no doubt you see lots of good things.
We’re seeing amazing things in Ukraine.
That doesn’t eliminate the sea of nonsense and heresy that has washed over evangelicalism…it means we should be grateful for people like you.
âfools goldâ
can you say more?
I try to look at both all of the Bible, and history and my own experience and observations. And I have a very curious mind, with a fairly extensive ânetworkâ of friends and acquaintances. And still donât âunderstandââŠ.lol
Ahhh thanks. Depends on who you ask đ
jtk,
As a standard rule, humans have a proclivity to sin…inside and outside the church, in history and today.
We make systems to be efficient and that ability is a gift from God.
The early church wasn’t pristine…and just got worse after the memory of Ananias and Sapphire faded…
I donât like your answer about Aimee Semple McPhersonâŠ
she seemed like such a complicated mess.
She sounded like the most dramatic girl in high school drama class.
I shall have to ponder these things.
I appreciate your help A LOT
jtk,
Sister Aimee is the single most fascinating and important person in church history of the last 150 years.
She was a genius…I highly recommend the book I posted.
If you don’t understand Aimee…you don’t understand today.
If the Jesus People movement was the last great revival…it was led by Chuck Smith…who was the spiritual child of Sister Aimee…let the reader understand…
Michael,
I understand your point re: Aimee and Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith was a major figure during the Jesus Movement, but he was not the only one, even within Calvary Chapel. Other church groups in Southern California were experiencing an out pouring of the Holy Spirit in various ways. Particularly in the earlier years of the Jesus Movement, it was much more de-centralized. It became much more controllable, more hierarchical, the hippies got older, they divided into their different theological camps, and the day came when the music died.
pstrmike,
Yes.
My point is that all of that…especially in SoCal…is Aimee inspired and instructed.
I have to do a hospital visit…be back later…
For the record, I believe Simple Aimee came to us via Canada – like our VP
Simple Aimee had a ramp constructed in her sanctuary and rode in on her motorcycle…
Uuggghh
Yes, she was Canadian.
She did shows like that almost weekly…
I FORGOT the Chuck Smith connection!
He was a Foursquare pastor before he went to Cali.
All the more fascinating for the PP audience
Re: the Jesus People,
people need a face to describe a movement, and Chuck Smith was the most identifiable
JTK et al…I have NO connection whatsoever to CC and the like, and even I know who Chuck Smith was.
What I’m getting at is that all the defining marks of big evangelicalism sprang from Aimee…and I’m baffled at why she doesn’t get the attention she deserves.
There is much…good and awful… to learn from her…
Chuck was running from Foursquare when he ran into Lonnie Frisbee. It was hard for him so decouple from his roots. Though Lonnie had no organic connection to Aimee he carried the spiritual DNA and forced CC into more charismata than Chuck could bear. He later dubbed it charismania and pursued Zionism as a unifying standard. Chuck inherited a flood and proceeded to build levees to control the waters.
Foursquare is following suit. Having doused the free flow of Spirit gifting, they have gone full Wokeistan. They are swiftly transitioning the positional authority to those whose agenda is to partner with race essentialism. They are retraining their leaders to sit in silence as whiteness has to be opposed exposed and curtailed.
CRT is a programmatic capture of institutions before it is a reprogramming of dogma. Institutions are poor vehicles of Spirit long term but fabulous disseminators of ideology.
The spiritual heirs of Aimee are being driven out except for the international churches who, like Methodism, are more driven by passionate spirituality than social reconstruction. The true Seven Mountain occupiers are social justice warriors not revivalists.
Pastor dread, VERY INTERESTING PONDER @2:19 ….. very interesting, indeed!
Of course â these are my thoughts and evaluations and I know I could be wrong as I have sometimes changed my mind⊠đ
I donât speak infallibly here
Dread,
I just looked at their website…and didn’t see or hear anything “woke”.
I’ve stood for immigrants and border issues for decades…is that woke?
Youâre not that naive to think that would appear in print.
I did not say theyâve no virtue or truth remaining. And what theyâve done for âdecadesâ has nothing to do with my claim.
Iâll stand by it as Iâve been dialoging with the exiles. You know Michael justice and this DEI agenda are very seductively similar in language.
But I could be wrong.
For sure they are not the Foursquare of Aimee or Jack Hanford.
Dread,
My concern is that anything not from the American right wing ideology is now considered “woke”.
I’m seeing the CRT bogey man used to ruin good colleges, good schools, and good people.
I’m seeing it applied in places where it’s simply not part of the system.
There are real issues with far left ideologies…that is undeniable.
However, the right is using the same tactics…just the other side of the coin.
Michael,
Denial of existence is the standard …
Nothing to see here is the creed…
I would know nothing of this whole thing if it were not for honest classical liberals who have been ground in the wheels of this movement. They are the prophets who warned me with the church was sleeping.
The matters I am raising about Foursquare are based on actual experiences of pastors who are being put to the tests of DEI orthodoxy, asked to be silent in online communities, displaced by superintendents who have never been pastors but carry the appropriate intersectional attributes, accused of racism without being allowed to face accusers.
I don’t deny right wing damnables, not least the prophetic liars, and the refusal to accept a failed election but institutional hegemony has very few havens left among conservatives.
Call it out if you see it …. we can have healthy discussions. I am game.
Dread,
I believe your testimonies come from direct sources.
We will discuss this further…but I have church coming up tonight and need to get situated…
Grace and peace Michael,
Discharging the word in the company of the faithful is that which I miss most.
We can talk another time.
On another note
The mercy-naries Christian and otherwise have flooded to Eastern Europe. They return bearing gifts â the latest strain of COVID19.
Yes they test everyone who is leaving but infection precedes symptoms and COVID19 is raging among their numbers.
Mask totalitarians will be thrilled vaccine deniers will be scandalized and our nations irreconcilable divides will expand.
Much reason to pray.
It seems that, like Jezebel and her kin, we are cast upon the sickbed and we are not soon to be freed.
Candlestick is in the wind
We attended a 4 Square church 25 years ago. We never got into the âcounterfeit revivalâ so we left when someone tried to push grandma backwards. They were careful never to mention Ms. Aimee at all and claimed credit to have spawned Chuck Smith. Visiting overseers were concerned about the number of people who got saved and about pressuring and promoting the Mr. and Mrs. Pastor to move on up the ladder within the worldwide organization.
Otherwise very good people I remember.
I think part of the answer to your query is that paradoxical things in Christian history make us uncomfortable. Charismatic things make us uncomfortable. She has both.