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71 Responses

  1. Em says:

    No reason, but I’m sitting here wondering why the deer have eaten every single lilac and snow berry blossom, but they ignore a yard full of dandelions? ? ?
    God? ? ?

  2. Em says:

    Also, anyone who has an abortion simply for her own convenience is evil…
    To put it simply, you made your choice, dear, when you had sexual intercourse….

  3. JimmieT says:

    ‘Em- I don’t know if “evil” is the proper descriptive word for someone who chooses to abort her child however it is a very evil act. Also I do maintain the vast majority of decisions to abort is out of convenience!

  4. Michael says:

    I hesitate to even address the issue.
    People are complex…and while we oppose anything that opposes human flourishing and the kingdom of God not all motives are the same…

  5. Eric says:

    Em, imo the man needs to be seen equally as having made that choice.

  6. Em says:

    Jimmie, I have two daughters who took advantage of the procedure. They both regret it. Maybe evil isn’t the right term. Perhaps confused and desperate?
    Eric, good point, also

  7. LInn says:

    I find the act of abortion horrible, but I think many people do it because it has been so accepted in the culture (we have two generations that have grown up with abortion as a right) and our entire concept of what is normal sexually is also skewed. Most young people I know expect to have sex before they are married, even a lot of Christians. I have friends my age (mid sixties) who also think that hookup culture is normal and go in and out of sexual relationships. Sex run amok leads to babies, STDs, and lots broken hearts. Even with the Supreme Court decision of revoking Roe v. Wade (if that happens), I think disposable babies will continue to be part of the society “normal.”

  8. JimmieT says:

    Link- so sad but true

  9. BrianD says:

    Country star Mickey Gilley — cousin to Jerry Lee Lewis and Jimmy Swaggart — passed away on Saturday.

    https://www.newschannel5.com/entertainment/country-music-star-mickey-gilley-passed-away-saturday-at-the-age-of-86

  10. Em says:

    Linn, good words and true…. sad, but true

  11. Steven says:

    In China, I noticed that they fully knew abortion was terminating a baby’s life.

    1). In home pregnancy kits, they had a flier for abortion providers.

    2). During tv commercials they’d have back-to-back commercials for the same “maternity hospital.”

    -one for the “awwww….you’re having a baby? Wonderful! We’ll take good care of both mom and your precious little one.”

    Very next commercial (for the same hospital): “Aw, found yourself pregnant and your life is ruined? Can’t pursue life or a career now? Come to our maternity hospital and we’ll ‘take care’ of that baby for you so you can get on with your life.”

    No joking.

    (Disclaimer: not literal interpretations)

  12. JimmieT says:

    China has always had the lead number of abortions

  13. JimmieT says:

    China has always had the lead number of abortions. Product of a godless society

  14. Officerhoppy says:

    Pretty harsh statement EM. As was stated, the act may be evil, but not the individual.

  15. Em says:

    Point taken, officerhoppy

  16. Pineapple Head says:

    We’re far from Eden, aren’t we?

  17. Nathan Priddis says:

    Something has been forgotten in regards to abortion.

    No prohibition in Scripture was detailed for it.

    Christians have gone beyond the Word of God in opposition to abortion. This is identical to the Pharresees developing oral tradition, that led to the Talmud after the fall of Jerusalem, in 70 AD. Line is added to line, here a little, there a little.

    The two closest texts to abortion are the ordeal of bitter herbs, and penalties for death of a preborn child. Neither would support the current Prolife position.

    -Bitter herbs would kill the unborn child of a pregnant woman. It would constitute an abortion.
    -Penalties assigns a separate legal status to the unborn. While death of the unborn is recognized as a loss in fact, the value is represents an inferior legal status of the child.

    It’s likely a typical Evangelical voter would have no clue I am referring to portions of Scripture.

  18. Dread says:

    pharisaism is an endless shapeshifter… it’s good that we are not like them.

  19. Nathan Priddis says:

    For homicide-
    “He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.”

    For violent loss of a fetus and possible subsequent, and seperate death resulting from the initial attack on the mother-
    “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,..”..

  20. Duane Arnold says:

    Nathan,

    The following provides a reasonable synopsis of Jewish thought on the subject…
    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/abortion-in-judaism

  21. Dread says:

    Priddis

    Tell us how your knowledge of these texts and others leads to a proper understanding of when to end life in the womb and when to protect it.

    On another note.

    It has been interesting to watch politicians step on their tongue trying to be politically correct about uterus bearing people’s rights.

  22. Em says:

    My understanding of the teaching coming out of “Jewry,” there is no human life in the womb. After birth the first breath the newborn takes makes it a living soul….
    I DISAGREE COMPLETELY with that view… FWIW

  23. Em says:

    Interesting ponder for the day….
    What if Mary had told the angel, “if I am impregnated by the Holy Spirit, I will abort! After all it is just piece of tissue! ! !”. ? ? ?

  24. Xenia says:

    I don’t really care when the Evangelicals came to realize abortion is a great evil. Christians have known this for nearly 2000 years. If the Evangelicals are late to the show, all I can say is Better Late than Never and Thank you for your Help and Thank you for setting up the Compassion Pregnancy Centers all around the country and for being to willing to adopt unwanted babies.

  25. Nathan Priddis says:

    ..”Tell us how your knowledge of these texts and others leads to a proper understanding of when to end life in the womb and when to protect it…”..

    BD. It is like this. We (believers) have been brought into the family of God by Faith, that Jesus Christ is Lord. Specifically, this faith is that…Jesus Christ..and not an other…is Lord. It is the Lord’s role as Sovereign to issue the type of ruling you ask about. Has the Court done so? It has not.

    What then? If a matter arises and the Court has made no clear ruling, is there precedent or instruction on handling silence or ambiguity? There is.

    ..”..And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
    When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”…

    The ruling on abortion, as with many things, will be handed down by the Court, when the Court is seated. For us that means, post-resurection, not now.

    For now, our role is to not go beyond, in pronouncing presumptously, before the Court has spoken.

    Can the Court rule on abortion at this time? I personally don’t believe so. Because, while the abortion tuft is focused on criminal code, forgotten is the status of the child. In addition, the status of the Woman was never pronounced in Genesis.

    Are you following the issues I point out?
    These are eternal states, or conditions, of spirits. It is beyond what law this or that State Legislative action produces.

  26. Dread says:

    Priddis

    1 – I did not ask you about a court ruling
    2 – Your response sounds either Mormon or some sect of an open revelation faith

    So no I’m not following you

  27. Dread says:

    As for the SBC of the early 70s was a theologically moderate crowd. Like most denominations the institutional leaders we more avant-garde than the laity. Roe hit the church like a thunderclap and made people pay attention. Within 5 years a full blown reaction happened among the churches.

    Abortion was not the sole cause by any means but it played a role. The institutional response to abortion of pre-1979 SBC was markedly different than the response after the conservative resurgence.

    It is true that the SBC had a slow unfolding rejection of abortion but it is also true that the SBC ultimately rejected the leaders that gave the early response. In 2003 on the 30th year of Roe the denomination renounced its motions from the 70s.

    The abortion issue did indeed play a role in the SBC’s resurgent conservatism of the 80s and beyond.

    Those were my formative years as a young believer and pastor – history is rarely just one thing.

  28. Michael says:

    The average adoption costs $30,000.00…

    Most abortions are a moral evil…but when any issue becomes politicized, other moral evils are soon to follow in the wake.

    There are now bills being introduced to outlaw contraception…the theocrat knows no bounds.
    The theocrat is satisfied by the law without Christ…

    A political solution may be necessary at this point…but because it comes without persuasion or conversion, it will change as the political winds do.

    Once the abortion issue is moved to the states, the right will only have border issues as its emotional play…and the hell they will wreck on migrants will be as evil as anything they protest against.

    Little of this is about faith…it’s about power.

  29. Dread says:

    Of course WA Criswell was no moderate but his oft-quoted voice on the matter did not hold sway. So these things are as I said – never just one thing.

  30. Duane Arnold says:

    “Little of this is about faith…it’s about power.”

    Exactly…

  31. Dread says:

    Power is the the drug of the two beasts of Revelation… religion and government

    Neither is the kingdom of God

  32. Michael says:

    We have spent the last generation feeding the beasts rather than seeking the kingdom…as the boomer generation dies those beasts will consume what is left.

    There will be a remnant and it will scorn our ways…

  33. Dread says:

    Well Michael

    We can already see the ways of the next two waves of post-boomer USA. They don’t have me optimistic. Perhaps the global south or some non-American expression of the kingdom will fare better.

    Frankly church history leaves me believing the lurching and stumbling forward will not end.

  34. Michael says:

    “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?””
    (Luke 18:8 ESV)

    This passage makes more sense today than it ever did before.

    In context, the line is drawn between those waiting for Jesus and His vindication and those who are looking for it elsewhere.
    We are looking to the beasts…

    I may start a new prophecy conference with this being a sign of the nearness of the Second Coming…I’ll be the only speaker and keep all the love offerings…

  35. Dread says:

    💰💰💰💰💰💰

  36. Officerhoppy says:

    According to my Jewish Ph.d friend, there is no singular position among Jews concerning abolition. But below is a midrash on being created in the image of God. Like many midrash it is a bit allegorical, but the notion that the last place we look is inside us, does strike a cord.

    “The angels, having heard that God planned to create the human being in His image, grew jealous. What does mere mortal man have to deserve such a gift? The angels plotted to hide the image of God from the human being. One angel suggested that it be hid on the tallest mountain. Another suggested that it be sunk into the deep of the sea. But the shrewdest angel demurred. “Man,” he said, “is an adventurer. He will climb the highest mountain. He will plumb the deepest ocean. But if we want to hide it from him, let us hide the image in himself. It is the last place in the world that he will seek it.”

  37. Officerhoppy says:

    A couple of “What if Questions”: what happens to our country if Row v Wade is overturned? Will it erupt in violence like in the George Floyd case?

    What happens to the Republic is SCOTUS out of fear of physical harm, buckles to the bully tactics of protestors, Nancy Pelosi, Bernie Sanders and others?

  38. Michael says:

    Bully tactics are used by both sides of this country.

    After Jan 6, conservatives cannot claim higher ground.

    Of course, violence will erupt…that is the new way of persuasion…it has also failed miserably for the most part.

    What will happen to the Republic in time is this…we will remain a union of states without national unity.

    This is not historically unique…pre and post Civil War America was the same and some of those boundary markers remain.

  39. Michael says:

    The only thing that prevents the eventual breaking of the Union is geography…which may not prevent a new South from emerging eventually…

  40. Dread says:

    It would definitely help if the President would actually speak to the protestors to leave the justices to do their work and to take their protests to appropriate places. That Psaki would not rebuke the doxxing is unfathomable.

    Going to the homes of justices — like going to the homes of mayors in the BLM riots — well those things should be met with shut down force.

    Sooner or later we’ll be back to the Kennedy—King catastrophes of the 60s

    But I think the Roe protests won’t have the same energy given that even Ruth Ginsburg knew this is a proper outcome. Abortion has to go to the states and to legislation.

    Even there it’s unsolvable — managing is all that can be hoped

  41. Officerhoppy says:

    If Texas secedes from the union, I just might become a Texan!

  42. Officerhoppy says:

    “ It would definitely help if the President would actually speak to the protestors to leave the justices to do their work and to take their protests to appropriate places”

    My thoughts too

  43. Michael says:

    ‘It would definitely help if the President would actually speak to the protestors to leave the justices to do their work and to take their protests to appropriate places.”

    Turns out that the protestors are all his neighbors…which I still find abominable, but this is what “protest” looks like on both sides these days.

    We have given up on persuasion and compromise and this is what you get.

    I care little anymore…I’m a churchman, not a political hack.

  44. Michael says:

    “If Texas secedes from the union, I just might become a Texan!”

    I am an Oregonian.

    Born here, raised here, live here, will die here, and will rise here…

  45. Dread says:

    We’ve all had neighbors from hell but usually they keep it low key.

    Better to know who your enemies are when you’re in the yard.

  46. Nathan Priddis says:

    BD.
    1. You asked about text. I realize it’s difficult to envision God on a throne as a monarch / court / government. We use various terms all the time like sovereignty or judgement. That does mean the words we use are anything more than empty talk.

    My position is simple. God heads a real government. As of now, no ruling has been handed down from him in regards to the death of the unborn, regardlessof how they died. Decisions, when handed down, may have implications beyond the initial scope of petition.

    That’s how Daniel’s 70 weeks came about. Daniel petitioned about a list of concerns. He got back something broader. This is a very simple example.

    2. You probably never thought that people have business before the Court. All sorts of business. Some are human and some not. A determination of the status of a unborn child, will have enormous impact on the Kingdom of God.

  47. Michael says:

    Nathan,

    You are either a genius or crazy as hell.
    I have no clue what you’re talking about…again.

  48. Dread says:

    Now I have a gauge Nathan

    Michael

    Priddis ascribes to a niche that is fixed on “the courts of heaven” in which people with a ‘legal’ claim can enter the courts and petition heaven to get a ruling. Or that can get an assignment, or even have accusations against themselves ‘cancelled’ whereby they move ahead with a new standing.

    This idea is popularized by folk like Robert Henderson — there are also other kinds of groups — they are very faddish and sectarian.

    There are as many gurus in this as coronavirus variants

  49. Michael says:

    Dread,

    I’ll go with crazy as hell, then.

    I was just watching a “prophet”explain how the Kentucky Derby has foretold the return of Trump this year.

    There is good money in innovation…

  50. Steven says:

    “I care little anymore…I’m a churchman, not a political hack.”

    For what (little) it’s worth, I’m with ya, Michael.

  51. Dread says:

    I should have known the first time he referenced Daniel and the courts of heaven.

    Michael Heiser does good exegetical work on the “council of heaven” in his various writings. But none of his ends in some experiential trip to the heavens to engage the court.

    My first experiences with this were with some folk I loved who got involved in “taking trips to heaven.”

    I quietly exited myself from their crazy world.

  52. Steven says:

    Dread: Taking acid trips to heaven, you mean? 😛

  53. Michael says:

    There is a common thread to all this crap…I think.

    Jesus is not enough to satisfy the longings for power and knowledge….the revealed Word not enough to satisfy spiritual inquiry, the Incarnate Christ not strong enough to follow…Jesus is not enough for most…

  54. Em says:

    Michael @ 3:26
    GOOD, GOOD PONDER
    IMNSHO

  55. Dan from Georgia says:

    “I was just watching a “prophet”explain how the Kentucky Derby has foretold the return of Trump this year.”

    WTF?!?!?!

    That is a new level of idiodicy.

  56. Dan from Georgia says:

    I agree with Em…amen Michael to your post at 3:26.

  57. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    I haven’t gotten around to reading Heiser but he’s on my sprawling list. I’ve been doing more with Mark Sneed and Reed Carlson reading lately (Taming the Beast and Unfamiliar Selves respectively, both good reads).

    But the divine court stuff can be oversold. Reed Carlson pointed out that the oracle Micaiah gave Ahab about a lying spirit in the divine court going out to deceive Ahab culminated in an implicit announcement that the prophets Ahab had who affirmed his forthcoming campaign were leading him to his death. I.e. the “how” of the set-up is something Carlson thinks needs to be read like Nathan’s moment of telling David “You are the man”, that Ahab was being warned his prophetic coterie was leading him to his death.

    I.e. fixating on the image of the royal court as though its “punchline” weren’t about what was happening in Ahab’s flesh and blood court misses its primary point within the narrative. It’s not that court imagery never happened, obviously, it’s more, per Dread, how people exegete the significant of those images.

    I’ve got some books by Andrei Orlov on ideas of the earthly realm as mirroring a heavenly realm but it’s going to be a while before I can get to those.

  58. BrideofChrist says:

    I had an ectopic pregnancy that required an abortion when I was 28. As soon as I had healed from the major abdominal surgery my husband and I started trying to get pregnant again. I was pregnant two months later with my first child, a daughter born 9 months later. If that first pregnancy hadn’t been terminated my daughter never would have been conceived as I would have been six months pregnant with the first pregnancy and not ovulating. I don’t pretend to know how this all is ordered by God, but it’s clear that some abortions result in a different child being born that never would have been born if it hadn’t been for the abortion. My case proves this to be a fact. My daughter who was born 11 months after my ectopic pregnancy/abortion has now given me two grandchildren – one boy, two, and his sister aged 5. I know she wasn’t a mistake. Was the first unborn being ( I don’t know if it was boy or girl) a mistake? If you can answer that question you are wiser than Solomon. These are very complicated issues that no one truly understands – a mystery to be revealed by God to us one day.

  59. BrideofChrist says:

    Interesting that folks can wax eloquently about this subject in the complete and total abstract, but when confronted with the actual flesh and blood, life and death reality of it, a reality that many women must face and endure, they shrink from it.

  60. Michael says:

    BoC,

    One of the reasons I’m always hesitant to speak to this issue is because pastoral concerns and “hard cases” get bulldozed in the mix.

  61. Em says:

    B of C, there ARE legitimate medical reasons for such procedures…
    I am certain your OB told you that there was no way that first ,”pregnancy ” could produce a living child

  62. Nathan Priddis says:

    Dread. You sleuthed me out as a Mormon this AM. Now your calling out my fringe Charasmatic identity. You toy with me. How is a boy supposed to know who he is when you keep changing it?

  63. Dread says:

    “2 – Your response sounds either Mormon or some sect of an open revelation faith”

    Was my exact inquiry

    You’re clearly not charismatic by spelling

    But you’re suggesting ‘open revelation’ in a more profound way than merely charismatic prophetic gifts. (Who don’t attach divine authority to their utterances)

    Whatever you are —- you are! Be free.

  64. Nathan Priddis says:

    The courts of heaven crowd seems to have some level of traction. How much, who knows.
    Are they actualy traveling to Heaven?
    My take is yes/no. The true is somewhere in between.

    My take is based on 3 bodies of evidence.

    1 -From the Old Testament God revealed when you worship in idolatry, he will cause your false deity to speak.
    2 -Parable of the Tares describes angels being sent in the time of heat, into the World to bind people. This is prior to the end of the Age. People are bound, but not burned till later.
    3 -Paul say God will send a strong delusion.

    My conclusion: In latter centuries angels decend and interact with many. Many will depart from the Faith, to their destruction.

    I doubt they can recover their former state. I presume they will live out their natural lifespan, but tragity will emerge in the afterlife.

    Jesus said.. ..”..The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness..”..

    As a side note, I believe contact with spirits results in minor, but detectable mental changes. If pharmakeia is witchcraft, then direct contact with spirits without the aid of drugs, should be stronger. I imagine it rather like low-volt circuitry crossing high-voltage.

  65. Officerhoppy says:

    Is this the Nathan Priddis tat teaches at BYU?

  66. Nathan Priddis says:

    Officer happy. Every girl, or boy, needs a few secrets. Just imagine your disappointment if I turn out to be a part-time queen, living in an rv in Portland.

    Imagine Dreads disappointment. I’d feel like I let him down.

  67. Dread says:

    “A part time queen living in an RV in Portland”

    Yeah that would do it

  68. Em says:

    Nathan, why are you hiding ? ? ?

  69. Michael says:

    Nathan,

    I’ve pretty much let you post here without restriction, even though most of the time I have no idea what the hell you’re saying.

    If you can’t answer direct questions respectfully…expect that to change…

  70. Nathan Priddis says:

    Disrespectful? That was a very cordial answer.

    But, does anyone seriously think I teach anything. I’m a terrible communicator. It wouldn’t go with the whole Mormon perfectionist thing. Especially at the mother beehive.

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