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77 Responses

  1. Dread says:

    Concerning the ongoing topic. Christians are responding publicly. Here’s one response.

    Statement on the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and Christian Nationalism

    “In light of the controversy surrounding the terms “New Apostolic Reformation” and “Christian Nationalism,” we are issuing this statement of clarification.

    We affirm the importance of Ephesians 4:11 ministry for the Church today and believe that such ministry functions have existed throughout Church history, even if not described in these exact terms.

    We affirm that contemporary apostolic and prophetic ministries are important for the well-being and mission of the Church, just as evangelistic, pastoral, and teaching ministries are important.

    We reject the belief that contemporary apostles carry the same authority as did the original Twelve Apostles.

    We reject the belief that contemporary prophets have the same function or carry the same authority as did Old Testament prophets.

    We reject the belief that every church must be submitted to apostles and prophets to be in right order before the Lord.

    We further oppose the possible abuse of ecclesial titles that manifests itself in self-proclaimed apostles and prophets claiming territorial authority over pastors in a community, city, or nation.

    We reject the belief that “new revelation” is essential for the life and growth of the Church or that contemporary apostles or prophets are the only ones privy to such “new revelation.”

    We affirm the full sufficiency of Scripture for the health and mission of the Church.

    We affirm that the spirit of true apostles and prophets should exemplify the attitude and lifestyle of Jesus (Philippians 2:4-12), coming alongside other church and workplace leaders to serve them, not replace them.

    In short, we deny any affiliation with what is presently being characterized as “NAR” in both Christian and secular press. We also believe that reports of an alleged, massive, worldwide, dangerous “NAR” movement are highly exaggerated and misleading.

    We also deny any affiliation with what is called “Christian nationalism” in the sense of merging Christian identity with national identity and marrying the gospel to politics. This is very different from a healthy Christian patriotism, which some term “Christian nationalism” and which can be both positive and biblically based.

    We believe nationalism is biblical in the sense of defined borders and people groups as mentioned by Paul in Acts 17 and by Moses in Deuteronomy 32. God sets national borders and governments and authority spheres for a purpose. We also believe in the positive value of nationalism when it comes to respecting national borders and authority in contrast with an international one-world government.

    We denounce any religious or national movement that promotes white supremacy (or the supremacy of any race).

    We do believe that Christians have as much right as any other group to have their voices heard in the public square and to influence society, functioning as the salt of the earth and light of the world, and we encourage such activities as good citizens of our various nations and as part of our sacred responsibility.

    We believe that Christians should seek to make a positive impact on every aspect of society, including education and media, along with politics, and that by acting on gospel principles, whole nations can be changed.

    We believe that Christians should be politically informed, should exercise their right to vote, should hold elected officials accountable, and when called by God, should run for political offices themselves.
    We reject as unbiblical the belief that America is similar to Old Testament Israel as being the chosen nation of God. (Although God has used the USA in various ways to bless the world with missionaries, humanitarian aid, and military support, in the New Testament, Jesus, as the King of kings and Lord of lords has a special relationship and assignment for every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue represented on the earth.)

    We denounce calls to violent, armed resistance in the name of Christian nationalism or as an alleged means of advancing the cause of the gospel.
    We denounce the triumphalist, top-down, take-over of society as part of a so called “dominion mandate.” (The original “dominion mandate” in Genesis 1:28 was given to Adam before the world was populated with people. hence, it was God giving humankind stewardship and dominion over the created order, not over other humans. The Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20 does not include a mandate to the Church to take over society through geopolitical means.)

    We believe the biblical way to influence society is by living the cruciform life in which believers lay down their lives in the service of others, resulting in human flourishing for the glory of God. This can include Christ-like engagement in every sphere of society.

    We see it as spiritually dangerous when:
    1) We are more concerned with winning elections than winning the lost.
    2) We wrap the gospel in the American flag.
    3) We equate our country with the kingdom of God.
    4) We confuse patriotism with spirituality.
    5) We compromise our ethics to keep our party (or leader) in power.
    6) Our church/denomination/ministry becomes an appendage of a political party.
    7) We put more trust in earthly methods than in spiritual methods.
    8) We marry the cause of Christ to the cause of a political party (or leader) as if they were one and the same.
    9) We become as vulgar and rude as the candidates we follow.
    10) We look to the White House more than to God’s house.
    11) We make a human being into a political savior.
    12) We equate loyalty to God (which is unconditional) with loyalty to a party or political leader (which is conditional).
    13) Our prayers and our prophecies become politically partisan.

    In short, we see no conflict between loving God and loving one’s country, but we reject the merging of the Christian faith with national identity, and we denounce the use of the gospel as a means of taking over the society in order to enforce Christian principles on the nation.

    Finally, we conclude by contrasting the Kingdom of God with extreme nationalism.

    The Kingdom of God prioritizes the advancement of the Gospel. Extreme nationalism prioritizes the advancement of its ideology even at the expense of the Gospel.

    The Kingdom of God produces loyalty to Christ above all else. Extreme nationalism produces loyalty to one’s nation above all else.

    The Kingdom of God produces people who lay down their lives for the cause of Christ. Extreme nationalism produces citizens who are willing to die for their nation above all else.

    The Kingdom of God raises the banner of Jesus above all else. Extreme nationalism raises the national flag above all else.

    The Kingdom of God promotes the interests of God above the world. Extreme nationalism promotes the interests of one’s nation above the Kingdom.

    The Kingdom of God views the world through a biblical lens. Extreme nationalism views the world through a geo/political lens.

    The Kingdom of God is dependent upon neither an earthly kingdom nor an earthly ruler but upon Jesus as the King of kings (Rev. 19:16). Extreme nationalism is dependent upon both the ideology of an earthly nation and its ruler.

    Followers of the Kingdom of God are passionate about a Christ-centered global awakening. Adherents of extreme nationalism are focused solely on a political/ideological awakening.

    Christ-followers are primarily identified with the Kingdom of God. Extreme nationalists derive their primary identity from their nation.

    Christ-followers derive their primary value from being children of their heavenly Father (Romans 8:14-17). Extreme nationalists derive their primary value from being citizens of their country.

    May the Church put God’s Kingdom and His righteousness first so that He can trust true believers, who genuinely represent His heart, to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

    For further details on the connection between “NAR” and contemporary apostolic ministry, see Joseph Mattera, The Global Apostolic Movement and the Progress of the Gospel (Ames, IA: BILD International, 2022).

    For further details on the intersection between the gospel and politics along with the question of Christian nationalism, see Michael L. Brown, The Political Seduction of the Church: How Millions of Americans Have Confused Politics with the Gospel (Washington, DC: Vide Press, 2022).“

  2. Michael says:

    Who signed off on this?

    News has yet to reach the Elijah List…

  3. Dread says:

    Haha

    I think it is Michael Brown

    Doesn’t it mirror some of what the SBC asserted?

    The people in my world are keen to separate from NAR and nationalism.

    I was in the doctoral seminar at Fuller where Wagner taught the first class. His application definitely morphed and that is included in why I did not identify with Pete despite my affection for him personally.

  4. Officerhoppy says:

    Interesting.

    An article on NAR says this about the movement: “ According to New Apostolic thinking, mankind lost its dominion over earth as part of the fall of Adam. So Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross not only resolved our sin debt, but it empowered mankind—specifically, Christians—to retake control of the earth. The New Apostolic Reformation sees seven areas in which believers are supposedly empowered and expected to dominate: government, arts, finances, education, religion, family, and media. Of these, the New Apostolic Reformation sees government as the most important because of its ability to influence all of the other facets of life. As a result, the New Apostolic Reformation overtly encourages Christian control over politics, culture, and business. In some ways, this is nothing unusual, as people should be expected to vote and lobby according to their convictions. The New Apostolic Reformation, however, is often accused of pushing for outright theocracy.”

    Dread post seems to contradict this statement

  5. Dread says:

    It does –

    NAR by that definition represents a narrow loud group.

  6. Dread says:

    NAR in 1997 when Wagner first taught it was a sociological phenomenon. It became a dogma later and Wagner had a lot to do with that also.

  7. Muff Potter says:

    Officerhoppy wrote:
    ” The New Apostolic Reformation, however, is often accused of pushing for outright theocracy.”

    If it’s true, and if they accrue the power they so desperately crave, it would be as brutal a dictatorship as any the world has seen.

  8. Dread says:

    Muff

    What is your basis and evidence? You made that up in your prejudice.

    NAR – even ones who espouse the 7 mountain strategy have zero intention of authoritarianism. Just isn’t true.

  9. Dread says:

    Hoppy posted a quote straight from the Got Questions page with no citation to reference it. Just their editorial opinion.

  10. Michael says:

    The truth behind DeSantis cruel stunt and the asylum seekers…

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1570828946308206593.html

  11. Dread says:

    The ‘truth behind’ guy’s self description

    “Proud Texan. Proud Dad. Proud Democrat. Ashamed of the 30 years I wasted as a Conservative Republican. #NeverTrump #LatterDaySaint”

    May be true but the witness is not neutral and the post looks like partisan politics.

    Take a look at this guy’s other posts

    Here’s one

    “I don’t know how much more clear on this I can be:

    Every word that comes out of the Pro Life movement is a lie.

    Every word.

    Anytime someone who is Prolife makes a claim, you can always ALWAYS count on it being untrue or misleading.”

    Nunca Trumpisimo exaggerates… next witness.

  12. Steve says:

    Dread, I’m a bit confused about NAR. One of the previous articals posted here correlated NAR with Christian Nationalism and FAR right wing politics. But if you consult the narconnections website, you will find folks that in my estimation are quite to the left politically. For instance Tim Keller is listed on the web site but he has been characterized as a full fledged Marxist which is clearly not on the RIGHT side of the political spectrum. Correct me if I’m wrong but I feel this is not a RIGHT/LEFT issue politically but a purely a theological issue.

  13. Duane Arnold says:

    Tim Keller “a full fledged Marxist”!?!

    Someone needs to get out of the house more…

  14. Dread says:

    Steve,

    NAR has become a slur that people ascribe to others.

    Christian Nationalism is it’s own beast and it touches many denominations and theological subgroups. It is NOT intrinsic to apostolic churches or movements. It is an error that can be, as noted elsewhere a pure heresy.

    NAR is basically a belief in the present day function of apostles and prophets.

    Anti charismatic churches use the moniker to dismiss their opposite.

    NAR has provided a shorthand “basket of deplorables” for careless critics.

  15. Dread says:

    The Tim Keller nonsense is a reveal for the usefulness of that website.

  16. Steve says:

    Duane, my church has pretty much fully endorsed Tim Keller but I am not a fan personally. I think he definitely leans very left and has incorporated some of prominent thinkers of “cultural Marxism “. What was surprising to me is that he showed up on a who’s who in NAR. I think I understand now though. He is big into cultural transformation which fits into the narrative. But I think it makes my point that NAR is not a Right or Left issue and it’s been used primarily as a slur ss Dread pointed out. It’s quite fascinating to me that both Peter Wagner and Tim Keller have had an impact on my church. It is one of my bigger concerns where I attend currently.

  17. Duane Arnold says:

    Tim Keller is as middle of the road as one could imagine. I’m not a devotee, but that is owing to my framework of faith being sacramental…

  18. Duane Arnold says:

    ” I think he definitely leans very left and has incorporated some of prominent thinkers of ‘cultural Marxism’ “.

    I don’t understand this. I have incorporated many different thinkers into my theological perspective. Merely because I believe they have insight in one area or another does not mean I have accepted the whole of what they write or what they say. This is about the norms of dialogue. I am a great fan of Fleming Rutledge, I’m also a fan of much of what I’ve heard through the years from Benedict XVI. I’ve read most of what Raymond Brown has written. This does not mean that I’m going to become a Roman Catholic. He has insight that I can benefit from in theological study. If we’re not willing to expose ourselves to the thinking of others, how in the world can we have an intelligent discussion. This tribalism takes stupidity to a whole new level! What, is our next job to look for theological reds under the bed?

    This is majoring on the minors. Currently most Christians are biblically and theologically illiterate. Maybe we need to start with the basics. You know things like reading the gospels or encouraging people to have a regular and disciplined life of prayer. It seems to me that we are to be concerned with creating a Christian culture within the church before we start pointing our grubby little fingers at what’s happening outside…

  19. Dread says:

    Look here’s the basic characteristics of what Wagner dubbed New Apostolic Reformation.

    Not a hint of nationalism. Love it or hate it but don’t lie about it like these online wags do.

    This arrival was his basic outline in his class in 1997.

    https://renewaljournal.com/2012/04/12/the-new-apostolic-reformation-byc-peter-wagner/

    You can see that all kinds of churches reflected this.

  20. Dread says:

    *article not arrival

  21. Michael says:

    “May be true but the witness is not neutral and the post looks like partisan politics.”

    It looks that way because it has become such, because in this great Christian nation the lives of our neighbors have become such….stripping them of the image of God and making them disposable pawns.

    You want an apocalypse of God’s judgment?

    This will make it fall faster than all the other “moral” issues .

    I have no idea what this person thinks of other issues…I do know that he provided a list of the same things that I have been saying for decades that are fact.

    These were not “illegal” people…the way you present yourself for asylum LEGALLY is to present yourself to the Border Patrol for processing.

    They were engaging the system legally…only to be used as cannon fodder for depraved politicians.

    This is a biblical issue…

  22. Michael says:

    “NAR – even ones who espouse the 7 mountain strategy have zero intention of authoritarianism. Just isn’t true.”

    Then who do the “prophets” of the Elijah List, Dutch Sheets, Greg Locke, and all those jackasses running around claiming Trump is being reinstated affiliate with?

  23. Michael says:

    “If we’re not willing to expose ourselves to the thinking of others, how in the world can we have an intelligent discussion?”

    We can’t…

  24. Michael says:

    Tim Keller, “cultural Marxist”.

    Now, that’s funny…he’s a confessional Presbyterian…

  25. Dread says:

    Michael

    Good examples but there is no necessary correlation between NAR and that spirit.

    I’ve lived in it.

  26. Duane Arnold says:

    Reading what’s been posted, NAR seems like a revival of Montanism and the New Prophecy dressed up in new clothes. Brushing up on the ancient schismatic group in Pelikan…

  27. bob1 says:

    Outstanding interview with Philip Yancey on evangelical subculture and how he overcame racism.

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/17/us/philip-yancey-white-evangelicals-trump/index.html

  28. Duane Arnold says:

    bob1

    It’s very good…

  29. Michael says:

    From the Yancey piece:

    “Since we’re talking a lot about politics, it makes me wonder: Is it more difficult to write now about the Christian faith? Do you get a lot more pressure to pick a side and come out this way or another on a political issue?”

    “Yeah, I get some, especially on the gay issue. I get a lot of pressure to take a public position on things like that. And I said no, because someone has to be a bridge person. And as soon as you declare yourself, one way or another, then the other side doesn’t listen to you anymore. And I want to be one of those reconcilers.”

    I live this every day…it’s not about the faith anymore…it’s about left and right…

  30. bob1 says:

    I believe God, in His providence, provided Philip with the tools to transcend his childhood racism, including a high school summer internship at the CDC with an African American. And since he’s
    an avid reader (natch!), the book “Black Like Me” had a profound
    influence on him.

    His “Where the Light Fell” is among the very best books I’ve ever read. It’s powerful!

    I find him interesting in several ways…his books sell in the millions among evangelicals, yet he’s found a way to “thread the needle.”
    Not an easy task, especially these days, but one we’re all called
    to do, IMHO.

  31. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    finished Katelyn Beaty’s Celebrities for Jesus last weekend. Review up
    https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2022/09/katelyn-beatys-celebrities-for-jesus.html

    It was a fast read, very fast. I think the core thesis is solid but she may have had to pull all her punches along the way. Being the Ellul reader that I am I supplemented her core proposals with a few of his observations.

    I had forgotten who Dutch Sheets even was for some time until I began to follow this thread.

  32. Duane Arnold says:

    A tip of the biretta to Alan. Thanks to his posting on the NAR, I came upon a MTh thesis on the links between Montanism and Pentecostalism. I don’t agree with all the conclusions, but there was some fascinating information and cogent insights…

    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/37420495.pdf

  33. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    looks interesting. Thanks for the heads up. Look forward to reading.

  34. Steve says:

    Duane, as I stated I go to a church that has fully endorsed Tim Keller. I have hosted Bible studies at my house with Tim Keller material. He is widely respected and admired and well read in my congregation. It’s quite strange that you would accuse me of not willing to expose myself to the teaching of others. Accussing me of tribalism because I wont read Tim Keller. It’s absolutely unbelievable! Tim Keller is so accepted and so prevalent and well loved in my camp that I am speechless. Does this mean I can not even critique my own tribe? I’m starting to read outside my own tribe and I don’t have as much glowing fondness of him as I once did. He leans too far left for me but I still go to my church.

  35. Duane Arnold says:

    “He leans too far left for me but I still go to my church.”

    Better than designating him as a “cultural Marxist”, but still ridiculous…

  36. Steve says:

    Duane, And it’s ridiculous because I’m not a big fan? Tribalism? When your not a big fan of someone in your own tribe? Talk about ridiculous.

  37. jtk says:

    Thanks for the link, Michael. I see a lot of truth in what that biased source says, a problematic contradiction.

    I love responsible compassion, but it sure seems like Biden doesn’t have a good handle on the immigration component, and I wonder about the asylee component.

  38. Duane Arnold says:

    Steve

    I’m not a fan or defender, but designating Tim Keller as a “cultural Marxist” or “too far left” strains credulity. That’s all…

  39. Steve says:

    Duane,. I’m afraid anything that veers slightly to the right of you would strain credibility in your perspective. First, I didn’t designate Keller as a cultural Marxist, I said he incorporated some of their prominent thinkers. But second, you missed my entire point and that was back to NAR. Somehow Tim Keller made it to the who’s who of NAR. I trust Dread that Keller doesn’t belong there but he made it there for some reason. And I can tell you for sure it’s not because he is some kind of right wing conspiracy nutcase. He leans left and if you think somehow he is dead smack in the middle we just simple disagree. Let’s move on

  40. Michael says:

    Steve,

    What defines someone as “leaning left”?

    I’ll just say this because I can’t hold it…anyone that thinks a confessional, non charismatic Presbyterian is in any way part of the NAR is an idiot.

  41. Michael says:

    jtk,

    Anyone who has a different viewpoint from someone is now “biased” irregardless of fact.

    Neither party does anything productive about the migrant crisis…it brings in too much money.

  42. Duane Arnold says:

    Steve,

    I’m content to disagree… completely.

  43. Michael says:

    Carl Trueman is very conservative…and he has this to say;

    https://modernreformation.org/resource-library/web-exclusive-articles/the-mod-is-tim-keller-a-marxist/

    “But he is no cultural Marxist, and to call him such is to reveal not the politics of the good doctor but the ignorance of the troll.
    It is to indulge in the spirit of this age, which eschews thoughtful argument about difficult issues for moronic and often malicious soundbites.
    It is not a helpful way of locating him in current debates in order to further the discussion, but rather a cheap way of pre-emptively delegitimizing him and his opinions.
    It is an unwarranted slur on his character, for we all know that cultural Marxism is not intended as a morally neutral term. And—I almost forgot—it is to break the Ninth Commandment about a Christian brother. And that’s a sin—not so much a sin against Tim Keller as against the God he serves.”

  44. Michael says:

    People who have attained the level of education that Keller has, have read extensively and as a requirement of their education interface with all sorts of different ideas.

    Much of that interaction will include the work of people that they do not necessarily agree with or even oppose vociferously.

    Referring to that work does not signal complete agreement with a school of thought.

  45. bob1 says:

    Good on Trueman! “Ignorance of the troll” says it all!

  46. Steve says:

    Michael,. I know in my own church I have heard Peter Wagner and Tim Keller used in the same sentence in a positive way. I had to do a double take when I heard them used together. I didn’t see any connection but thought I would ask. I agree it doesn’t seem to make sense. I also don’t know who put the NAR connections web site together. Regarding confessional Presbyterian, that doesn’t say much to me at all. Tim Keller is better characterized as a neo-calvinist than a non charismatic. Also non charismatic churches that are big into vision casting are suspect to me. Tim Keller vision casts. I defer to Chris Rosebrough who is my vision casting go to expert of this practice. Regarding leaning left, it was from my perspective more from a theological point of view than a political one. Although Tim Keller is both to the left of me in both areas. Theologically, I just had trouble with certain passages of scripture. I count him as a brother. He has some good stuff but I have concerns. The NAR stuff is a bit confusing but I can see that the Dominionism of NAR has some connection with the cultural transformation that Tim Keller is into.

  47. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Please tell me which of Tim Kellers books you have read.

    I’ll wait…

  48. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Crawford Gribben, in his book on survivalism and Christian reconstructionist movements in the Pacific Northwest, pointed out that in the 1980s there was a strange nexus of postmillennialist reconstructionist/theonomist ideas downstream of Rushdoony that mingled with charismatic Third Wave groups. Dominionist ideas and ideals don’t have to be strictly Calvinist but a transformationalist approach to culture (per Trueman) does not automatically make a person a “cultural Marxist” otherwise all the mainlines in the second half of the 19th century who endorsed a social gospel would be “Marxist”. The egregious bad faith is most clear when the shoe is on the other foot and “taking America back for God” is seen as some kind of divine mandate by cultural conservatives who object to “cultural Marxism” but may homeschool or private school their kids to be the little platoons who “go upstream and influence culture”. Driscoll had something of this ethos despite rejecting postmillennialism with open contempt and also (until 2014) rejecting the “charismaniacs”.

    Conflating “transformationalism” with NAR seems hard to sustain. If cultural transformational impulses are all it takes for someone who self-identifies as some kind of Presbyterian to be a “cultural Marxist” then Doug Wilson is a cultural Marxist.

  49. Steve says:

    Michael, I spent over a year in a small group in my own house studying “Gospel in Life” by Tim Keller.

  50. Michael says:

    Steve,

    So you spent a year studying one book.
    Anybody become a commie?

  51. Michael says:

    WTH,

    Well said.

    I think the Bible describes “cultural transformation” as being “salt and light”.

  52. Steve says:

    Michael, my church like many others are on the verge of collapse. Covid didnt help. I don’t really have time to address your sarcasm. YES, we only studied that book in community. And, since most of the attendees were Chinese some may have defaulted back to communism from what they know from their own up bringing. I hope not.

  53. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    I shall repeat for emphasis… “This tribalism takes stupidity to a whole new level! What, is our next job to look for theological reds under the bed?”

  54. Michael says:

    The idea that anyone would revert to communism from reading “Gospel in Life” is both slanderous and stupid.

  55. Michael says:

    Duane,

    I keep coming back to the conclusion I’ve spoken to you privately…I don’t have a place in this bizarre new world.
    This is not productive for anyone.

    If I threw out all the books where I don’t agree with the author on all points or interpretations, I’d be sitting in an empty room.

  56. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    Agreed… And, unpacking the false narratives of this bizarre new world will take multiple lifetimes.

  57. Steve says:

    Michael, I didn’t say the book caused this. I said your comments were being sarcastic and I’ll add stupid. I wish we had a strong church where we could survive. If we don’t, many of the Chinese in my life may go back to their roots which is communist. That is an unfortunate reality.

  58. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Maybe if your church quits worrying about politics and devotes itself to the Gospel alone it will get better.
    I pastor a group of very conservative saints…and haven’t mentioned anything remotely political in months…because it’s utterly unnecessary.

  59. Steve says:

    Michael, my church isn’t into politics and haven’t heard anything of the sort from the pulpit. I would be long gone if it did. This is not the readon for our church pending collapse if that happens. So don’t slander.

  60. Em says:

    Speaking of the Chinese, I’ve heard that they are buying up our farmland and shipping its produce to China!
    Is this true? ? !

  61. bob1 says:

    This is a perceptive and helpful view of why Xns don’t talk about heaven much anymore, and why we should. The author teaches theological ethics at Baylor.

    https://www.christiancentury.org/article/voices/looking-heaven-without-looking-past-earth

  62. Dread says:

    I believe England is a Christian nation in actuality judging from the state funeral of Elizabeth II. A Christian nation is not Christian nationalism.

    The first paragraph of that politico piece is errant, pejorative, and intentionally inflammatory. “White, Christian” did not appear in that polling. It was editorial truth-shaping.

    Some conflation exists in the politico poll. That poll did not describe Christian Nationalism to respondents.

    That was propagandist nonsense intended to do exactly what it did… not discover something… accuse something.

    The USA rejected state religions in our founding. This innovative evil of Christian nationalism is a different beast. Congresswoman Taylor-Greene notwithstanding.

    And if you want this space to be something other than political or partisan you will have to stop pressing partisan political issues so freely.

  63. Dread says:

    Frankly America is a colonized continent that was conquered by European immigrants. Those immigrants were of Christian heritage whether or not they were faithful disciples of Jesus. Now their ancestors (us) are being found guilty and liable of all the ills that accompanied those ‘accomplishments.’

    What we need now is wisdom to get through this season of mess without worsening the problems. What we seem intent upon doing is demonizing each other out of existence.

    We can do better. We are not trying.

  64. Duane Arnold says:

    Dread

    “I believe England is a Christian nation in actuality judging from the state funeral of Elizabeth II. ”

    Legally, but less so culturally apart from occasions such as the state funeral.

  65. Duane Arnold says:

    This is a good set of statistics for the UK overall…
    https://faithsurvey.co.uk/uk-christianity.html

  66. Michael says:

    There is no such thing as a Christian nation.

    I’m so tired of all this…

  67. pstrmike says:

    Michael,
    Thanks for the link on Truman’s article. Interesting how the conversation morphed here.

    “ For me, cities are a necessary evil whose sole purpose is to provide country boys like me somewhere to go to the theatre once in a while.”

    Amen. And may forever be.

  68. Nathan Priddis says:

    Dread. Im not sure how your history is helping you in regards to identifying what Christian Nationalism is.

    Do you know why Zadok the Preist used to be played for the Queen?
    Why where Tsars and Tsarinas referred to as such?
    Are you awareof how the Rus became Christians?
    Why is there rivalry between Moscow and Kiev?
    Have you read the Mayflower Compact, and the later City on a Hill?
    Do you understand why Plymouth Colony existed?
    Have you read the Virginia Company Charter as granted by James 1st?
    Do you know whether or not there existed any tangible ideological divide in the original North and South?
    Do any of the concepts of Poweres, as mentioned in Scripture, apply to any of the situations mentioned above?

  69. Duane Arnold says:

    “Christians differ not from other men in country, or language, or customs. They do not live in any peculiar cities, or employ any particular dialect, or cultivate characteristic habits of life. The truths which they hold result not from the busy ingenuities of human thought; the counsels of man in them possess no champion. They dwell in cities, Greek and barbarian, each where he finds himself placed, and while they submit to the fashion of their country in dress and food and the general conduct of life, they yet maintain a system of interior polity, which beyond all controversy is full of admiration and wonder. The countries they inhabit are their own, but they dwell like aliens; they take their part in all privileges, as being citizens; and in all sufferings they partake as if they were strangers. In every foreign country they recognize a home; and in their home they see the place of their pilgrimage.”

    The Letter to Diognetus

  70. Nonnie says:

    Several years ago, as Prince of Wales, King Charles III said that, when he became king, rather than declaring himself “The Defender of the Faith” (like those before him, and especially his mother) that he will be “The Defender of the FAITHS.” (I don’t know what gods he will be defending, but that is what he said). I’m wondering how this is going to flesh out.

  71. Duane Arnold says:

    “Church of England data shows that average Sunday attendance in 2019 was 600,000 adults, or fewer than 1% of the population. A third of those attending church were aged 70 or over.”

    The Guardian, March 20, 2021

  72. Dread says:

    Priddis

    Not once have I argued that either a state religion or Christian nationalism is a good thing.

    I do argue that they are not the same thing. They are perversions of the kingdom of God. Though as Duane’s stats indicate. You can kill your religion by partnering it with the beasts (powers)

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