If study the bible carefully you see what Jesus thought about religion. He hated it. Religion is what y’all got going on at this site…. Real shame because all it does is keep you bound up. Be free in Jesus not religion
Already did, apparently completely over the top…. this is classic and completely predictable behavior for those who embrace religion. Denial is always the first line of defense…..as futile as that is…..ditch religion and be free in Jesus
Swing and a miss on that one…second most common thing one hears from those who are stuck under the oppression of religion…,are threats….religion and the law always kill…they never bring life
Yep…and the funny thing is they keep posting even when they are sent to the spam filter. When someone fails to present a coherant statement it’s usually because they can’t…which is the case here.
I’m trying to figure out how to be “free in Jesus” without religion.
I’m looking at the 3 top definitions of “religion”:
1 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
2 a (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
b : the state of a religious
a nun in her 20th year of religion
3 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Aside from 2b, which I don’t think applies to this discussion, I can’t see a conflict between the term “religion” and freedom in Jesus.
If you want to have a discussion you have to define your terms and explain what your issue is.
Jean rightly challenged you to answer what you consider to be “religion”.
You have to define that and demonstrate how the folks here from numerous denominations and traditions are examples of such.
In the past you have made statements that betray a lack of understanding of theological issues and seem content to just blast off with no discussion needed.
This site doesn’t work that way…different views are encouraged…but there is an expectation that one can defend those views with some measure of clarity and with an intention to engage with the whole community.
Until you can do so…no one is going to see you yelling into the void.
I’m going to look for another job…I think God is moving me on…or maybe I have no choice. I’m not in love with this call center job at all and feel like I’m walking on a tightrope with a blade hanging over my head (or the rope).
I recently started working at a local health food store. I was having an enjoyable conversation with a gentle about various supplements, life, faith, and so on. After helping him find several things I went to help another person. He went to look at the produce. As I heading back to my cart full of backstock he approached me as he headed to the register with a concerned look on his face. He asked me how we could sell genetically modified grapes that were seedless. I briefly explained that was more selective breeding than anything else. He then said, “Didn’t the Lord say every one according to its seed? I don’t think we are supposed to have seedless grapes. The seeds are healthy for you. I agreed with him that the seeds are healthy but then I gently corrected him in that grapes are not typically multiplied by seeds but rather by spreading and laying down new roots or by propagated cuttings. He looked at me kind of like I was crazy. Which was just fine with me.
There was I day I assumed everything was overly simple lik Bill/Larry until one day I woke up and realized that belief in God, the Christian faith, and so on are simple until they are not. I thinking it is learning to trust God even when our preconceived ideas about “freedom in Jesus” are just another form of dogmatic slavery. Oh, the irony.
Anonymous or Brian- I would loathe a job in a call center. I actually did it once. I had to call gas stations and mechanics in Kansas and Oklahoma to see if the wanted to try an engine oil performance product. At the time I lived in California. I worked there one week until the next Monday morning I was too stoned to go to go in that day. Later that day I found out that it was a good thing that I ditched worked. The BATF, FBI, and local police officers raided the building. I guess the product we said we were shipping and were actually shipping we vastly different. It turns out they were shipping heroin. True story. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Anyways, I wish you well in your potential search.
Sorry about my spelling, poor grammar, and missing words in my post above. I love my new job but it has been a long time since I moved up, down, and all around this much. Yet, the irony is that was the reason I took this job. Well, that and helping people with something I am fairly passionate about.
Shawn – I’m with you on how times not that long ago were simpler. Then conspiracy theory folks were an extreme minority, while now conspiracy thinking runs amok. Your cold calling job, I can’t even wrap my head around it. I’m guessing your were calling known dealers fronting as auto shops?
The Bill/Larry thing – One of the traits of the latest form of “deconstructors” I see is claiming to like Jesus but having zero respect for Christians and the church. None. I’m betting they would think twice before disrespecting a Hindu or Buddhist, but its open season for mocking believers. We are easy targets, especially those of us who for some strange reason reject fundamentalism while still trying to hold on to some kind of orthodoxy.
Often Christians use ‘religion’ in a negative sense and it often means “Christianity the way other people do it”. Sometimes the other people are not even doing it that differently, but I know I’m being real about it, while what I see of others is mostly the externals, unless I talk to them and learn more.
It’s easy to think those people in more traditional churches have more of the unnecessary extra stuff and we are better on the basics of life with Jesus. But it might be more correct so say “I am in a non-traditional church tradition… We have a non-liturgical liturgy…”
I have been trying to come to terms with God. It’s hard to do because I hate religion. I might dare say I have come to a conclusion that I hate the “church”. I don’t hate the people, I hate what they subject themselves to, and what happens behind the doors of the buildings. I hate what they try to export to society. I hate Christian Nationalism. I hate the abuses that have been reported here and elsewhere. Quite a bit of hate. I know. I’m trying to deal with that too.
13 years of alcohol and reprogramming, absorbing all the historical writings about what the church has done. 13 years of trying to drown the pain of things I taught people, and what it did to create a sense of futility in life. 13 years of remembrance, those that were lost. 13 years of asking God why I had to suffer at the hands of filthy actors in the theatre of church. 13 years of wondering how and why I managed to have a pulpit to stand behind, and still be allowed to teach the nonsense I taught.
I do use ‘religion’ in a negative sense, and I mean in the way almost everyone observably does it.
I don’t want the tradition of the “church”, because the pattern is worldly. It’s just as vile as heathens. It’s pattern is destructive. I don’t take the arguments of, “Oh but look at all the good it has done…” because the cost in lives is too great.
I want to know God. I feel like I almost can’t because I am too jaded, I have seen too much.
I believe there is truth. I don’t believe it is found in religion. I don’t believe it is found behind walls. I believe people can love their neighbor as they love themselves. I believe people can feed the hungry, clothe the poor, welcome the stranger, and I believe this can be done because I have seen it from both Christian and heathen.
I think this is where “deconstruction” is helpful, as long as reconstruction is based on Jesus and not on failed human constructions of Him.
If I were doing reconstruction counseling, I’d tell the ones I’m counseling to become immersed in the Johannine writings…and start learning about critical scholarship views of the Scriptures…Pete Enns has some good material on the subject…
I don’t see what the relationship is between Reuben’s experience and a lack of critical scholarship views of Scripture or Peter Enns’ materials. I don’t know Reuben’s experience, but I don’t see how critical scholarship views or Peter Enns’ writings could prevent church abuse or false teaching.
The other question I have is once critical scholarship views and Peter Enns are finished deconstructing Scripture, then what is left for reconstruction of anything firm and reliable that faith can take hold of?
I’m with Reuben, once again. I have floundered for several years now trying to find a system that works, but there’s always a catch. It always hurts. I go to the fluffiest mega churches I can find just to hear music well done, and maybe hear something uplifting. That doesn’t work either. Even religion-lite leaves me frustrated and wondering what the hell it is we are actually doing. I like Jesus. All the stuff we’ve built around hi from day 1 is weird.
I wish I could take you along with me to church. I have not found the perfect one, as none such exist, but one that eschews many of the silly, superficial, and harmful practices that have been adopted in Christianity. Surely you would have some theological differences, maybe even difficulties with the teachings of the church, given the current, seemingly unsettled place where you are at. But you would also find a church that doesn’t focus on squabbling about or acting condescendingly about things outside the core of the Christian faith and is more concerned with loving people and serving needs. Of course, they do not do this perfectly, myself included, as the church is made up of humans and sometimes they may do some hurtful things, just like you can experience anywhere where humans are present. But they faithfully try to keep the emphasis on exuding Jesus and His love, truth, and sacrifice, and not the “system”.
This is the most authentic church I have ever found and it has been a big breath of fresh air, especially after attending a church for many years which encompassed a lot of troubling aspects which take place within the Church. You also well know that I write about a lot about these troubles in the Church, and certainly have a sensitivity to them.
So all of this is to say, don’t give up hope on the Church. You still have Jesus, and that is the most important part. But I don’t think Jesus desires for us to go it alone without an earthly family of some sort which collectively follows after Him and from which we can find mutual support and encouragement. I don’t know what God has for you or how long you may continue to feel frustrated and disillusioned, but I do believe that God has something good for you and one way or another you will come upon it.
It’s all yours today…
If study the bible carefully you see what Jesus thought about religion. He hated it. Religion is what y’all got going on at this site…. Real shame because all it does is keep you bound up. Be free in Jesus not religion
Bill,
Before I completely dismiss you as a troll, why not give an example of what you’re speaking about?
I suspect your “careful” bible study is as ignorant as your initial comment, but let’s give it a shot…
Michael
I rest my case
Genius…resting a case you failed to even attempt to make. Enjoy the spam filter…
Michael
You are the case…,do you not understand?
Larry,
You’ll need to lay the case out clearly…I’m sure you’ll want all our readers to understand your complaint…
By the way…changing your name doesn’t change anything…I have your ip address…
Already did, apparently completely over the top…. this is classic and completely predictable behavior for those who embrace religion. Denial is always the first line of defense…..as futile as that is…..ditch religion and be free in Jesus
Last chance Larry…define how we are embracing “religion”…as if that were a bad thing…Jesus was a practicing Jew…
I notice you’re no longer using your businesses email address…probably smart…
Michael,
Do people do stuff like this on purpose? Bill/Larry doesn’t make sense!
Swing and a miss on that one…second most common thing one hears from those who are stuck under the oppression of religion…,are threats….religion and the law always kill…they never bring life
Linn,
Yep…and the funny thing is they keep posting even when they are sent to the spam filter. When someone fails to present a coherant statement it’s usually because they can’t…which is the case here.
Michael, you and the rest of the site have Cooties.
I’m trying to figure out how to be “free in Jesus” without religion.
I’m looking at the 3 top definitions of “religion”:
1 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
2 a (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
b : the state of a religious
a nun in her 20th year of religion
3 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Aside from 2b, which I don’t think applies to this discussion, I can’t see a conflict between the term “religion” and freedom in Jesus.
See, your existence proves it.
I rest my case.
It is juvenile hour on the Phoenix Preacher, right?
I raise Cooties and feed them to my cats…
Yup, I was right. It’s still juvenile hour.
Somebody learned a cliche in hillbilly chapel and it sounded good enough to repeat…
Greg,
If you want to have a discussion you have to define your terms and explain what your issue is.
Jean rightly challenged you to answer what you consider to be “religion”.
You have to define that and demonstrate how the folks here from numerous denominations and traditions are examples of such.
In the past you have made statements that betray a lack of understanding of theological issues and seem content to just blast off with no discussion needed.
This site doesn’t work that way…different views are encouraged…but there is an expectation that one can defend those views with some measure of clarity and with an intention to engage with the whole community.
Until you can do so…no one is going to see you yelling into the void.
It must be Troll Day on the PhxP!!
CK,
It is…so weird to have people believe something they can’t even articulate.
Waste of time…
I’m going to look for another job…I think God is moving me on…or maybe I have no choice. I’m not in love with this call center job at all and feel like I’m walking on a tightrope with a blade hanging over my head (or the rope).
anon,
Seen…praying a new door opens for you soon. Customer service is a preview of hell…
I recently started working at a local health food store. I was having an enjoyable conversation with a gentle about various supplements, life, faith, and so on. After helping him find several things I went to help another person. He went to look at the produce. As I heading back to my cart full of backstock he approached me as he headed to the register with a concerned look on his face. He asked me how we could sell genetically modified grapes that were seedless. I briefly explained that was more selective breeding than anything else. He then said, “Didn’t the Lord say every one according to its seed? I don’t think we are supposed to have seedless grapes. The seeds are healthy for you. I agreed with him that the seeds are healthy but then I gently corrected him in that grapes are not typically multiplied by seeds but rather by spreading and laying down new roots or by propagated cuttings. He looked at me kind of like I was crazy. Which was just fine with me.
There was I day I assumed everything was overly simple lik Bill/Larry until one day I woke up and realized that belief in God, the Christian faith, and so on are simple until they are not. I thinking it is learning to trust God even when our preconceived ideas about “freedom in Jesus” are just another form of dogmatic slavery. Oh, the irony.
Anonymous or Brian- I would loathe a job in a call center. I actually did it once. I had to call gas stations and mechanics in Kansas and Oklahoma to see if the wanted to try an engine oil performance product. At the time I lived in California. I worked there one week until the next Monday morning I was too stoned to go to go in that day. Later that day I found out that it was a good thing that I ditched worked. The BATF, FBI, and local police officers raided the building. I guess the product we said we were shipping and were actually shipping we vastly different. It turns out they were shipping heroin. True story. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Anyways, I wish you well in your potential search.
Sorry about my spelling, poor grammar, and missing words in my post above. I love my new job but it has been a long time since I moved up, down, and all around this much. Yet, the irony is that was the reason I took this job. Well, that and helping people with something I am fairly passionate about.
Shawn – I’m with you on how times not that long ago were simpler. Then conspiracy theory folks were an extreme minority, while now conspiracy thinking runs amok. Your cold calling job, I can’t even wrap my head around it. I’m guessing your were calling known dealers fronting as auto shops?
The Bill/Larry thing – One of the traits of the latest form of “deconstructors” I see is claiming to like Jesus but having zero respect for Christians and the church. None. I’m betting they would think twice before disrespecting a Hindu or Buddhist, but its open season for mocking believers. We are easy targets, especially those of us who for some strange reason reject fundamentalism while still trying to hold on to some kind of orthodoxy.
Bill/Larry/Greg are part of the new evangelicalism that is equal parts of politics and Christendom.
The faith part simply serves the political aspirations…it’s not historically new, but always barely orthodox.
Terry,
Looking back I think so because they knew if I skipped through the list of Mechanics and Gas Stations in the phone books they provided me.
Often Christians use ‘religion’ in a negative sense and it often means “Christianity the way other people do it”. Sometimes the other people are not even doing it that differently, but I know I’m being real about it, while what I see of others is mostly the externals, unless I talk to them and learn more.
It’s easy to think those people in more traditional churches have more of the unnecessary extra stuff and we are better on the basics of life with Jesus. But it might be more correct so say “I am in a non-traditional church tradition… We have a non-liturgical liturgy…”
I have been trying to come to terms with God. It’s hard to do because I hate religion. I might dare say I have come to a conclusion that I hate the “church”. I don’t hate the people, I hate what they subject themselves to, and what happens behind the doors of the buildings. I hate what they try to export to society. I hate Christian Nationalism. I hate the abuses that have been reported here and elsewhere. Quite a bit of hate. I know. I’m trying to deal with that too.
13 years of alcohol and reprogramming, absorbing all the historical writings about what the church has done. 13 years of trying to drown the pain of things I taught people, and what it did to create a sense of futility in life. 13 years of remembrance, those that were lost. 13 years of asking God why I had to suffer at the hands of filthy actors in the theatre of church. 13 years of wondering how and why I managed to have a pulpit to stand behind, and still be allowed to teach the nonsense I taught.
I do use ‘religion’ in a negative sense, and I mean in the way almost everyone observably does it.
I don’t want the tradition of the “church”, because the pattern is worldly. It’s just as vile as heathens. It’s pattern is destructive. I don’t take the arguments of, “Oh but look at all the good it has done…” because the cost in lives is too great.
I want to know God. I feel like I almost can’t because I am too jaded, I have seen too much.
I believe there is truth. I don’t believe it is found in religion. I don’t believe it is found behind walls. I believe people can love their neighbor as they love themselves. I believe people can feed the hungry, clothe the poor, welcome the stranger, and I believe this can be done because I have seen it from both Christian and heathen.
Reuben,
I think this is where “deconstruction” is helpful, as long as reconstruction is based on Jesus and not on failed human constructions of Him.
If I were doing reconstruction counseling, I’d tell the ones I’m counseling to become immersed in the Johannine writings…and start learning about critical scholarship views of the Scriptures…Pete Enns has some good material on the subject…
I don’t see what the relationship is between Reuben’s experience and a lack of critical scholarship views of Scripture or Peter Enns’ materials. I don’t know Reuben’s experience, but I don’t see how critical scholarship views or Peter Enns’ writings could prevent church abuse or false teaching.
The other question I have is once critical scholarship views and Peter Enns are finished deconstructing Scripture, then what is left for reconstruction of anything firm and reliable that faith can take hold of?
Jean,
Evangelicalism has used one way of looking at Scripture as a weapon , not a source of hope and faith.
Critical scholarship demonstrates there are other ways of looking at the sacred text that can remove toxic interpretations.
I fully affirm the early creeds of the church and have an utterly orthodox soteriology…one does not have to check their brain at the door of faith.
Having said that, I don’t embrace everything Enn’s says…but I trust that Reuben and others are intelligent enough to parse things for themselves…
Michael, which book is a good starting point? (Enns)
A lot of interesting titles there…
“How the Bible Actually Works”…
I’m with Reuben, once again. I have floundered for several years now trying to find a system that works, but there’s always a catch. It always hurts. I go to the fluffiest mega churches I can find just to hear music well done, and maybe hear something uplifting. That doesn’t work either. Even religion-lite leaves me frustrated and wondering what the hell it is we are actually doing. I like Jesus. All the stuff we’ve built around hi from day 1 is weird.
The One We All Know,
I wish I could take you along with me to church. I have not found the perfect one, as none such exist, but one that eschews many of the silly, superficial, and harmful practices that have been adopted in Christianity. Surely you would have some theological differences, maybe even difficulties with the teachings of the church, given the current, seemingly unsettled place where you are at. But you would also find a church that doesn’t focus on squabbling about or acting condescendingly about things outside the core of the Christian faith and is more concerned with loving people and serving needs. Of course, they do not do this perfectly, myself included, as the church is made up of humans and sometimes they may do some hurtful things, just like you can experience anywhere where humans are present. But they faithfully try to keep the emphasis on exuding Jesus and His love, truth, and sacrifice, and not the “system”.
This is the most authentic church I have ever found and it has been a big breath of fresh air, especially after attending a church for many years which encompassed a lot of troubling aspects which take place within the Church. You also well know that I write about a lot about these troubles in the Church, and certainly have a sensitivity to them.
So all of this is to say, don’t give up hope on the Church. You still have Jesus, and that is the most important part. But I don’t think Jesus desires for us to go it alone without an earthly family of some sort which collectively follows after Him and from which we can find mutual support and encouragement. I don’t know what God has for you or how long you may continue to feel frustrated and disillusioned, but I do believe that God has something good for you and one way or another you will come upon it.
Kevin, your church sounds much like mine. Best I’ve found in decades.
CK,
Maybe if The One We All Know would change their name to Kevin, then they’d find a good church. 😉
😉