Wanted to share something I read in scripture this week that really stuck with me.
Paul speaking to the Ephesian elders:
And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. (Acts 20:32, ESV)
I know that the evangelicals here like to sing Chris Tomlin songs in church – has anyone here tried this one in the church service yet? What’s going on here??
Something else – Joe Sobolic’s church popped up on my Facebook this morning … he must be buying ads.
So I clicked on it and read some of it. In a one month period he had paid singers in – The Gutierrez Brothers, Two or more and Bryan Duncan.
Why does a church use tithe money to pay singers to come in? Sobolick being a music man, you would think would develop his own.
Is it for the big name notoriety? Do they pack in enough new people to pay for it? I don’t know how much they charge, but I will bet it’s not cheap. I know once at Ocean Hills, Fernando Ortega wanted $3,500
I liked the Mexican guy playing the trumpet. Added a good ecumenical feel to it, instead of just a bunch of young and thin beautiful white kids jumping around š
$3500 that’s nothing, my former church once paid $10,000 for a big name pastor/speaker for Sunday service. Wonder how much my former pastor was paid for his speaking gig that day.
nope, they did not know. But my guess is that even if they did, they would find a way to justify it in their minds. Since this was a well known radio personality within certain circles.
Jim,
It was a concert – but so are all of his songs and they end up in the church on Sunday morning – I was just asking if it has shown up in any of your churches yet. Would anyone object to that in your church … with everyone jumping around on ‘god’s dance floor.’?
Don’t give me the joy stuff – I’ve seen the same ‘joy’ with people jumping around at Guns & Roses concerts with the words to the effect of “kill your parents – kill your dog.”
Signed – grumpy old fart š
The paying of guest speakers and guest music guys is just a marketing strategy. What they are saying is that the preached word is not good enough (even though the Bible says it is) – it has to be preached by a ‘special’ person or sung by a person of notoriety.
OMG, could you imagine if a regular person preached and the congregation produced their own music … no one would show up.
Is church just about young people now?
That is one thing I dislike about modern evengelicalism.
It’s propensity to just leave the older generation behind.
Why are you taking everything I say so personally?
Like the whole thing about racism a few weeks back, it wasn’t aimed at you and if you had read a few posts back you would have realized that.
I myself have been disappointed in how the church as a whole has treated the older generation.
We diss the hymns they like, by hardly ever playing them.
While a lot of newer hymns are empty of substance.
We try to make people feel like inferior worshipers, because they aren’t raising their hands and swaying to the music
I myself have felt this guilt in the past.
But, it the whole thing makes me feel like they are acting like the Pharisees that prayed publicly so that they could be seen by men.
Sorry, London, I have a lot of opinions and not all of them are personal affronts to you.
How many times can you say I, we & us – no wonder the audience looks so joyful … it’s all about them.
I’m coming back to the start
where You found me
I’m coming back to Your heart
now I surrender
take me
this is all I can bring
I’m coming back to the start
our God is freedom
and here we feel Your heart
Your heart beat for us
take me
this is all I can bring
Chorus:
You’ll never stop loving us
no matter how far we run
You’ll never give up on us
all of heaven is shouting
let the future begin
let the future begin
take me
this is all I can bring
You’ll never stop loving us
no matter how far we run
You’ll never give up on us
all of heaven is shouting
let the future begin
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on Gods great dance floor
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on God’s great dance floor
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on God’s great dance floor
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on God’s great dance floor
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on God’s great dance floor
Read more: Chris Tomlin – God’s Great Dance Floor Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Today, it is all about numbers. Get them in anyway you can. After all, the ends justify the means. Big church means big salary for the pastors. Makes me sick.
I don’t have any trouble with the music, considering where I came from. However, I am not pragmatic – the ends never justify the means.
My church hasnāt done this song, yet I could totally see them doing it, even though they tend to choose songs that are more Christ centered. Sometimes we have quite a lively time of worship, other times itās quiet and reflective.
We are a diverse bunch. There is a group of young and old that like to get up and dance, and let me tell you some of those old ladies can really dance with joy. There is a group that flag twirls. There is one woman who sometimes paints as she worships. There is a group that goes to the alter. There are those that sit or stand at their seats. We are free to worship as the Spirit leads, yet it is all done in an orderly manner.
I referenced this song in the message today. It is a hymn over 150 years. In looking at the lyrics though…I don’t think it would pass MLD’s test. To much me and my.
(And according to google..Chris Tomlin did a version too. š )
Take my life, and let it be
Consecrated, Lord, to Thee;
Take my moments and my days,
Let them flow in ceaseless praise,
Let them flow in ceaseless praise.
Take my hands, and let them move
At the impulse of Thy love;
Take my feet and let them be
Swift and beautiful for Thee,
Swift and beautiful for Thee.
Take my voice, and let me sing
Always, only, for my King;
Take my lips, and let them be
Filled with messages from Thee,
Filled with messages from Thee.
Take my silver and my gold;
Not a mite would I withhold;
Take my intellect, and use
Every power as Thou shalt choose,
Every power as Thou shalt choose.
Take my will, and make it Thine;
It shall be no longer mine.
Take my heart; it is Thine own;
It shall be Thy royal throne,
It shall be Thy royal throne.
Take my love; my Lord, I pour
At Thy feet its treasure-store.
Take myself, and I will be
Ever, only, all for Thee,
Ever, only, all for Thee.
Derek – I was really poking MLD with his “How many times can you say I, we & us…it’s all about them”
Speaking as someone who likes the hymns a lot – I would point out what I see as a definite difference. When an existing church gets a new pastor or worship leader and they decide to dramatically change the music….then I can get on board with where I think you are coming from Derek.
However, if a relatively new church (which of course might be 30-40 years old too) has always had a certain kind of music, people know what they are walking into to. There are still plenty of churches on the map that sing the hymns.
Steve,
“Derek ā I was really poking MLD with his āHow many times can you say I, we & usā¦itās all about themā
I don’t see the comparison – in your hymn the voice is petitioning God to do something with what they are surrendering.
In the Tomlin party song (on American Bandstand it would receive a 10 because you can dance to it) It is all about what he feels and does.
But my serious question is would anyone object to this song being played in the church service. There are many Christian songs I hear on the radio, that I like and can sing along to that I wouldn’t want in the church service. But hey – I can sing along with some Gun n Roses also. š
I do look at the words and the theology behind these songs. Several years ago several of you thought I was nuts when I criticized the Michael W. Smith song “Above All”
When it was sung at my Lutheran church in a contemporary service I went to the music director and explained why it was wrong and should not be sung – at least by us – and it hasn’t since.
You cannot have inconsistencies between what you believe, teach and confess and with what you sing. The bad theology in singing will always win out.
I don’t know any pastors who would include the song in their worship, as there are far better choices. Having said that, the song contains no doctrinal error. I allowed myself to be blessed by it. You don’t have to.
The video was from a concert. I can think of worse ways to spend a Friday night.
Linnea, Iām in CA. I fellowship at Cucamonga Christian Fellowship, which is part of the Free Methodist denomination.
The Worship there is amazing, itās done family style, so all the kids are there with us. At the end we pray a blessing on the kids and send them off to their respective class rooms, or if they want to stay with the adults thatās fine also. At times we have had healings, words of wisdom, and prophecy. If anyone has a word from the Lord, they are encouraged to share it with the Pastor or an Elder, who then decides if it will be shared with the rest of the body. Sometimes the Pastor will share it, and sometimes the individual will.
London, I don’t think I registered a complaint about the video or the concert. My concern is that the church cannot suck up Chris Tomlin songs fast enough. So my question was is this song appropriate if it came into your church?
Once I point out the chorus, how could people continue to sing this song in church. Since so many evangelical churches put the words on the Jesus Jumbotron, it’s not like people don’t know what they are singing – (have you ever been there, singing along on the radio and the words hit you? and you go, OMG, I can’t sing that.)
I think that the theology of what you sing, determines the theology of what get’s preached.
CHORUS
Crucified
Laid behind the stone
You lived to die
Rejected and alone
Like a rose
Trampled on the ground
You took the fall
And thought of me
Above all
I wouldn’t put either of those songs on a request list at church no.
The Chris Tomlin song is way too long for a church service for one thing and that MWS song isn’t one I like that much anyway.
As far as much having a mention of the person singing it, a discussion we have had a million times here, that alone isn’t enough to make my think it should be banished from churches.
Sometimes it’s a good thing to acknowledge outloud that we are loved.
Sarah, I had not seen it before, but I admire the fact that they have someone reviewing the words and theology of what goes in their hymnal and not just accept “popular” songs with bad theology (I am not commenting whether their theology is correct or not). At least there is some kind of a review committee and it’s not just some 20 something song leader who liked “the sound” but paid no attention to the words or whether it even matched the church’s theology.
Another thing is I would hope that the songs chosen for the service (hymns, songs, praise songs it doesn’t matter) are chosen for a purpose aligned to the service and the message – and not just the song that the ‘worship’ leader wrote.
Let me give an example – although it is a great hymn, I don’t think a Lutheran could sing “I have decided to follow Jesus” … I doubt a Calvinist would sing it either.
An evangelical could sing it all day at the top of their lungs. š
I thought it was pretty admirable as well, on both sides. I appreciated that both stood their ground because of theological views. The Gettys (who wrote the song) actually are part of our fellowship and have contributed to helping the planning of the worship aspect of the service in terms of what you are talking about…where the theology of the songs is part of the message as well.
I reread the article and I feel more strongly that what we sing dictates what we believe, teach and confess … and if it doesn’t, then you will end up with a confused congregation.
The liberal wing – the PCUSA doesn’t believe strongly in the wrath of God and don’t want to sing about it. The conservatives, the PCA do and will sing loudly.
My concern is that in many churches, the songs that make into the church are the ones that can crack the Christian radio top 40 – regardless of content – as long an it is snappy and you can dance to it.
And I should add, that does not mean it is stuffy or one style of music. Some would not notice anything different…but there is a maturity to the intention of the worship…and it is clear when you have been there over a length of time. It is not haphazard…and that is especially true here in “Music City.” There is much showcasing in this town. I mean, we have Phil Keaggy, Amy Grant, Margaret Becker and Big Kenny (from Big and Rich) in the fellowship along with the Gettys on any given Sunday. I think part of why they come is because there is a different attitude toward the worship…and because we do not have those who are “names” in the music business lead the worship…we give them the freedom to “just” be part of the congregation.
I will say this, my daughter’s ex brother in law is the worship leader of a very large church – I think but could be wrong – in the Napa area. When he was the worship leader in a similarly large church in Long Beach … how can I say this kindly? the kid was theologically as dumb as a rock – great singer and a very good arranger, but I hope someone else was choosing the songs for him.
I was always flabbergasted – how could someone be in ‘ministry’ and know practically nothing about scripture? I haven’t had contact with him for about 3 years, perhaps he is smarter now.
The MWS song dictates that his theology is that the number one reason Jesus went to the cross was that he was thinking about me… above all things
My theology and the reason that the song should not be sung in church is that I believe that Jesus went to the cross to fulfill the will of the Father and that his thoughts were towards the Father… above all things… not me.
MLD.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say anything about liking songs with bad theology. You made that up…and, as expected, you did not answer my question.
I think you just wanted to complain about everyone else and don’t really have any idea of songs that you find suitable.
A couple of publishing groups have set hymns to modern music, which is a pretty good idea IMO.
I remember the culture shock back in 1982 of being in hard rock bars one weekend, and in a 1950’s southern gospel church the next weekend. It messed with my head for a while. I felt guilty every week for wanting to shoot the organ. Fortunately, in this church, everyone got saved all over again every Sunday night, so I was good… š
London,
“Donāt put words in my mouth. I did not say anything about liking songs with bad theology.”
I have only been complaining about songs with bad theology. So when you try to beat me up, the only thing I can assume is that you like the songs with bad theology – otherwise you would agree with me. I have said nothing about style of the songs.
Why would you ask about music that would keep people away under 60 – I didn’t say anything about boring music and as I said, we teach people why they are edified singing proper songs..
I dropped my comment because it sounded too much like name dropping…I was trying to get a different point across, but when I re-read it, I really didn’t like how it sounded…sorry, I hate to do that, but it sounded terrible. I apologize. I know that leaves a couple comments hanging, but we’ll leave it at that.
I think Oh No and I were talking about completely different bands. Big Kenny I was talking about is from a country band and lives here in Nashville and I don’t think his wife is a pastor. Not that I know of at least. š
Jim,
Our old song leader (we don’t call the music man the worship leader – that is the pastor) used to arrange old hymns with modern arrangements – you got the contemporary sound with the sound theology … and no stanzas repeated 7 or 8 times.
That is one thing about style – the old hymn writers could think of 7 stanzas that were not the same. Today you get perhaps 3 stanzas and 7 repetitive choruses.
London,
I don’t know what to say, do you want me to list the top 100 acceptable songs – pick up a Lutheran hymnal. Any contemporary song that has good theology.
You still have not reacted to songs with bad theology – I have pointed out 2, you said one was too long and the other you didn’t like anyway … but do you agree they should not be sung in church. Otherwise you are arguing for something that I am not arguing against.
Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. Only the songs that are in a Lutheran hymnal are acceptable for singing in church.
Gotcha.
Explains a lot about why you don’t like modern music at least. š
As for those two specific songs…I answered that.
No, they shouldn’t be sing on church. The first is too long (9 min)
And the other I don’t like. If I were the worship leader and in charge if song selection they would not be on the playlist.
The MWS song has bad theology and is too whiney.
I don’t like the line, but understand the sentiment, about Jesus having “me” on his mind while he died.
London – now who is being dishonest. My complete statement was;
“pick up a Lutheran hymnal. Any contemporary song that has good theology.”
I think that I included ANY CONTEMPORARY SONG that has good theology.
I love modern music – I said just because it is played on the radio does not make it acceptable for a church service. But some people will just mindlessly sing along.
MLD – that is quite a stretch to use the expression “bad theology” just because (quote) I believe that Jesus went to the cross to fulfill the will of the Father and that his thoughts were towards the Fatherā¦ above all thingsā¦ not me.
There is plenty in Scripture to suggest Jesus had the saving of sinners as part of the equation. He was not on some need to know basis simply following the Father’s orders without any clue of the gameplan.
So if your quibble is over simply the words “above all” then fine….at least the song speaks of the crucifixion which is a rarer and rarer thing today.
To my knowledge we have never sung that song – but every week I tell the people “Jesus went to that cross for you. He willingly died for you.”
MLD.
I don’t think we use the word “contemporary” to mean the same thing.
No dishonesty on my part whatsoever.
You just don’t like it that I’m not agreeing with your assessment.
Steve,
Probably more like “When he said above, “You have neither dirsired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.”
Yes, I think “above all” the joy Jesus spoke of was doing the will of the Father.
MLD – if your point is that there is a lot of man-centered focus in some Christian music, you will get no argument from me.
I argue that a disagreement with what is your opinion, (as you throw verses out for support while ignoring verses that might suggest otherwise) is equated to “bad theology”
A song that acknowledges Jesus is eternal, that He came to earth to die, and ends in giving praise and thanks to Him is not the song I would put at the head of the line of man-centered focus.
In fact, if I may be so bold š , I think your problem lies in your faulty Christology which we have discussed here ad naseum in the past, as you confuse the two Natures of Christ. Where is the deity of Jesus when you speak of Him as simply following orders of God the Father?
The Bible of course speaks of both, in connection to the two Natures. Yes, Jesus did the will of the Father, but yes, He was certainly focused on saving sinners – for there is no contradiction between the two statements.
“Where is the deity of Jesus when you speak of Him as simply following orders of God the Father? ”
Perhaps our difference IS actually in Christology. I would never place the work of Christ in the position of following orders. That makes your Christology one where Jesus could be disobedient and choose not to follow orders. The will of the Father and the will of the Son are the same.. and Jesus clearly says that he is carrying out the will of the Father.
Look, you have not addressed the issue – is it above all things that Jesus thought of me? or is it that Jesus did the will of the Father Above all things.”
I think you are in a protectionist mode or it’s that ‘filter’ through which you look at scripture. š
An old CC wisdom thought – “how many drops of poison does it take to render a glass of water undrinkable.?” Look, I didn’t call him a heretic, I just think it is sloppy bad theology. Perhaps it rhymed so he used it.
Steve,
Just when I thought you understood the 2 natures, you relapse. Now you are sounding like my argument.
Before the incarnation the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the same will – we see nothing to the contrary.
In the incarnation, Jesus does have somewhat of a separate will, brought on by his new fleshly wants and needs (just as I don’t think pre incarnation Jesus ever hungered or thirsted)
So my point exactly – Jesus did the will of his Father – how can I say this… “Above all things”
It’s all yours today.
Bunch a truckers….vets and bikers going to Washington.Will the President along with the Congress and Senate listen?Not!
Music is up for the week. Feel free to drop by.
http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/praise-worship-october-11th-2013/
Fixed the problem with the above music post so if you drop by music will actually be there!! š
Wanted to share something I read in scripture this week that really stuck with me.
Paul speaking to the Ephesian elders:
And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. (Acts 20:32, ESV)
WoW… This blog still exists…. ?
Derek
Amen.
Amen, Derek. Thank you!
Nickky, the blog is still here, but it is almost all automated, very few real people commenting.
This comment, for example, in response to your comment, was automatically generatiugeevfdr356?~}%^**uiooedpp..ed
May God comfort Adrian Peterson and his family as they go thru their mourning process
I know that the evangelicals here like to sing Chris Tomlin songs in church – has anyone here tried this one in the church service yet? What’s going on here??
Something else – Joe Sobolic’s church popped up on my Facebook this morning … he must be buying ads.
So I clicked on it and read some of it. In a one month period he had paid singers in – The Gutierrez Brothers, Two or more and Bryan Duncan.
Why does a church use tithe money to pay singers to come in? Sobolick being a music man, you would think would develop his own.
Is it for the big name notoriety? Do they pack in enough new people to pay for it? I don’t know how much they charge, but I will bet it’s not cheap. I know once at Ocean Hills, Fernando Ortega wanted $3,500
Is this church growth?
I liked the Mexican guy playing the trumpet. Added a good ecumenical feel to it, instead of just a bunch of young and thin beautiful white kids jumping around š
$3500 that’s nothing, my former church once paid $10,000 for a big name pastor/speaker for Sunday service. Wonder how much my former pastor was paid for his speaking gig that day.
$10,000!!!!!!!! Wow….
Jlo, did the congregation know they were paying $10,000 for that guy?
nope, they did not know. But my guess is that even if they did, they would find a way to justify it in their minds. Since this was a well known radio personality within certain circles.
Oh man! That looks like so much fun!
I wish I was in that audience and I wish I had the kind of personal freedom to jump around with that much joy.
#10 just looks like a concert to me. I guess a grumpy old fart might not like it, but I saw a lot of joy in that crowd.
Jim,
It was a concert – but so are all of his songs and they end up in the church on Sunday morning – I was just asking if it has shown up in any of your churches yet. Would anyone object to that in your church … with everyone jumping around on ‘god’s dance floor.’?
Don’t give me the joy stuff – I’ve seen the same ‘joy’ with people jumping around at Guns & Roses concerts with the words to the effect of “kill your parents – kill your dog.”
Signed – grumpy old fart š
The paying of guest speakers and guest music guys is just a marketing strategy. What they are saying is that the preached word is not good enough (even though the Bible says it is) – it has to be preached by a ‘special’ person or sung by a person of notoriety.
OMG, could you imagine if a regular person preached and the congregation produced their own music … no one would show up.
Yeah. No joy allowed in church by golly!
Cut it out you young people!
Is church just about young people now?
That is one thing I dislike about modern evengelicalism.
It’s propensity to just leave the older generation behind.
It was a concert, and the dancing/countenance looked nothing like what occurs at a G&R show.
Derek. What in the world are you talking about??
I was making fun of MLD being so old and grumpy. It had NOTHING to do with church in general.
Well mine was piggybacking off MLD’s.
Why are you taking everything I say so personally?
Like the whole thing about racism a few weeks back, it wasn’t aimed at you and if you had read a few posts back you would have realized that.
I myself have been disappointed in how the church as a whole has treated the older generation.
We diss the hymns they like, by hardly ever playing them.
While a lot of newer hymns are empty of substance.
We try to make people feel like inferior worshipers, because they aren’t raising their hands and swaying to the music
I myself have felt this guilt in the past.
But, it the whole thing makes me feel like they are acting like the Pharisees that prayed publicly so that they could be seen by men.
Sorry, London, I have a lot of opinions and not all of them are personal affronts to you.
In fact, where can I find the giant rock concerts in the bible?
Anyone got a verse reference for me?
My point is made – everything is acceptable in the evangelical church. If the big dog like Chris Tomlin thinks it’s OK, then bring it on.
Besides, the song (words) are pretty self centered – at best, about the christian and not the Christ.
“In fact, where can I find the giant rock concerts in the bible?”
Heck, where can I find God’s great dance floor?
How many times can you say I, we & us – no wonder the audience looks so joyful … it’s all about them.
I’m coming back to the start
where You found me
I’m coming back to Your heart
now I surrender
take me
this is all I can bring
I’m coming back to the start
our God is freedom
and here we feel Your heart
Your heart beat for us
take me
this is all I can bring
Chorus:
You’ll never stop loving us
no matter how far we run
You’ll never give up on us
all of heaven is shouting
let the future begin
let the future begin
take me
this is all I can bring
You’ll never stop loving us
no matter how far we run
You’ll never give up on us
all of heaven is shouting
let the future begin
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on Gods great dance floor
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on God’s great dance floor
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on God’s great dance floor
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on God’s great dance floor
I feel alive
I come alive
I am alive on God’s great dance floor
Read more: Chris Tomlin – God’s Great Dance Floor Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Today, it is all about numbers. Get them in anyway you can. After all, the ends justify the means. Big church means big salary for the pastors. Makes me sick.
I don’t have any trouble with the music, considering where I came from. However, I am not pragmatic – the ends never justify the means.
MLD…love those lyrics. Thanks for sharing š
We need a church for us baby boomers…BB church..kind of looks like cowboy church š So sorry for those of you who hate country š
My church hasnāt done this song, yet I could totally see them doing it, even though they tend to choose songs that are more Christ centered. Sometimes we have quite a lively time of worship, other times itās quiet and reflective.
We are a diverse bunch. There is a group of young and old that like to get up and dance, and let me tell you some of those old ladies can really dance with joy. There is a group that flag twirls. There is one woman who sometimes paints as she worships. There is a group that goes to the alter. There are those that sit or stand at their seats. We are free to worship as the Spirit leads, yet it is all done in an orderly manner.
I referenced this song in the message today. It is a hymn over 150 years. In looking at the lyrics though…I don’t think it would pass MLD’s test. To much me and my.
(And according to google..Chris Tomlin did a version too. š )
Take my life, and let it be
Consecrated, Lord, to Thee;
Take my moments and my days,
Let them flow in ceaseless praise,
Let them flow in ceaseless praise.
Take my hands, and let them move
At the impulse of Thy love;
Take my feet and let them be
Swift and beautiful for Thee,
Swift and beautiful for Thee.
Take my voice, and let me sing
Always, only, for my King;
Take my lips, and let them be
Filled with messages from Thee,
Filled with messages from Thee.
Take my silver and my gold;
Not a mite would I withhold;
Take my intellect, and use
Every power as Thou shalt choose,
Every power as Thou shalt choose.
Take my will, and make it Thine;
It shall be no longer mine.
Take my heart; it is Thine own;
It shall be Thy royal throne,
It shall be Thy royal throne.
Take my love; my Lord, I pour
At Thy feet its treasure-store.
Take myself, and I will be
Ever, only, all for Thee,
Ever, only, all for Thee.
Source: http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/445#ixzz2hePc6RN4
Steve…great worship song!
jlo…would love to know where you worship š
Sorry Steve,
Still not impressed by “God’s Great Dance Floor”
Don’t think it is gonna pass the test of time like “Take My Life and Let it Be”
Derek – I was really poking MLD with his “How many times can you say I, we & us…it’s all about them”
Speaking as someone who likes the hymns a lot – I would point out what I see as a definite difference. When an existing church gets a new pastor or worship leader and they decide to dramatically change the music….then I can get on board with where I think you are coming from Derek.
However, if a relatively new church (which of course might be 30-40 years old too) has always had a certain kind of music, people know what they are walking into to. There are still plenty of churches on the map that sing the hymns.
Steve,
“Derek ā I was really poking MLD with his āHow many times can you say I, we & usā¦itās all about themā
I don’t see the comparison – in your hymn the voice is petitioning God to do something with what they are surrendering.
In the Tomlin party song (on American Bandstand it would receive a 10 because you can dance to it) It is all about what he feels and does.
But my serious question is would anyone object to this song being played in the church service. There are many Christian songs I hear on the radio, that I like and can sing along to that I wouldn’t want in the church service. But hey – I can sing along with some Gun n Roses also. š
I do look at the words and the theology behind these songs. Several years ago several of you thought I was nuts when I criticized the Michael W. Smith song “Above All”
When it was sung at my Lutheran church in a contemporary service I went to the music director and explained why it was wrong and should not be sung – at least by us – and it hasn’t since.
You cannot have inconsistencies between what you believe, teach and confess and with what you sing. The bad theology in singing will always win out.
MLD,
I don’t know any pastors who would include the song in their worship, as there are far better choices. Having said that, the song contains no doctrinal error. I allowed myself to be blessed by it. You don’t have to.
The video was from a concert. I can think of worse ways to spend a Friday night.
Jim,
You are correct – it actually had no theology.
I’ll never hear the song again, so I’m kinda over the whole conversation.
I watched the Lincoln movie last night, and was still able to keep my self imposed “don’t talk politics on PP” fast. You’re welcome, one and all… š
Linnea, Iām in CA. I fellowship at Cucamonga Christian Fellowship, which is part of the Free Methodist denomination.
The Worship there is amazing, itās done family style, so all the kids are there with us. At the end we pray a blessing on the kids and send them off to their respective class rooms, or if they want to stay with the adults thatās fine also. At times we have had healings, words of wisdom, and prophecy. If anyone has a word from the Lord, they are encouraged to share it with the Pastor or an Elder, who then decides if it will be shared with the rest of the body. Sometimes the Pastor will share it, and sometimes the individual will.
Some times people just need a reminder that God loves them, isn’t going to leave them and its ok tone happy about life.
It’s so funny to me that people want to complain that people are having a good time in this video.
Maybe if there had been a few there’s and thousand thrown in it would be more acceptable.
And I love the idea of Gods big dance floor.
London, I don’t think I registered a complaint about the video or the concert. My concern is that the church cannot suck up Chris Tomlin songs fast enough. So my question was is this song appropriate if it came into your church?
Michael W. Smith’s – Above All
Once I point out the chorus, how could people continue to sing this song in church. Since so many evangelical churches put the words on the Jesus Jumbotron, it’s not like people don’t know what they are singing – (have you ever been there, singing along on the radio and the words hit you? and you go, OMG, I can’t sing that.)
I think that the theology of what you sing, determines the theology of what get’s preached.
CHORUS
Crucified
Laid behind the stone
You lived to die
Rejected and alone
Like a rose
Trampled on the ground
You took the fall
And thought of me
Above all
I wouldn’t put either of those songs on a request list at church no.
The Chris Tomlin song is way too long for a church service for one thing and that MWS song isn’t one I like that much anyway.
As far as much having a mention of the person singing it, a discussion we have had a million times here, that alone isn’t enough to make my think it should be banished from churches.
Sometimes it’s a good thing to acknowledge outloud that we are loved.
The MWS song has been sung probably in all churches – as I said, it even creeped into mine, terrible theology and all.
MLD…what did you think of this debate:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/05/presbyterians-decision-to-drop-hymn-stirs-debate/2618833/
(not baiting, genuinely curious….)
Sarah, I had not seen it before, but I admire the fact that they have someone reviewing the words and theology of what goes in their hymnal and not just accept “popular” songs with bad theology (I am not commenting whether their theology is correct or not). At least there is some kind of a review committee and it’s not just some 20 something song leader who liked “the sound” but paid no attention to the words or whether it even matched the church’s theology.
Another thing is I would hope that the songs chosen for the service (hymns, songs, praise songs it doesn’t matter) are chosen for a purpose aligned to the service and the message – and not just the song that the ‘worship’ leader wrote.
Let me give an example – although it is a great hymn, I don’t think a Lutheran could sing “I have decided to follow Jesus” … I doubt a Calvinist would sing it either.
An evangelical could sing it all day at the top of their lungs. š
I thought it was pretty admirable as well, on both sides. I appreciated that both stood their ground because of theological views. The Gettys (who wrote the song) actually are part of our fellowship and have contributed to helping the planning of the worship aspect of the service in terms of what you are talking about…where the theology of the songs is part of the message as well.
Yep…I am tracking right with ya š
I reread the article and I feel more strongly that what we sing dictates what we believe, teach and confess … and if it doesn’t, then you will end up with a confused congregation.
The liberal wing – the PCUSA doesn’t believe strongly in the wrath of God and don’t want to sing about it. The conservatives, the PCA do and will sing loudly.
My concern is that in many churches, the songs that make into the church are the ones that can crack the Christian radio top 40 – regardless of content – as long an it is snappy and you can dance to it.
And I should add, that does not mean it is stuffy or one style of music. Some would not notice anything different…but there is a maturity to the intention of the worship…and it is clear when you have been there over a length of time. It is not haphazard…and that is especially true here in “Music City.” There is much showcasing in this town. I mean, we have Phil Keaggy, Amy Grant, Margaret Becker and Big Kenny (from Big and Rich) in the fellowship along with the Gettys on any given Sunday. I think part of why they come is because there is a different attitude toward the worship…and because we do not have those who are “names” in the music business lead the worship…we give them the freedom to “just” be part of the congregation.
Anyway, just thought I’d add that.
I will say this, my daughter’s ex brother in law is the worship leader of a very large church – I think but could be wrong – in the Napa area. When he was the worship leader in a similarly large church in Long Beach … how can I say this kindly? the kid was theologically as dumb as a rock – great singer and a very good arranger, but I hope someone else was choosing the songs for him.
I was always flabbergasted – how could someone be in ‘ministry’ and know practically nothing about scripture? I haven’t had contact with him for about 3 years, perhaps he is smarter now.
Sarah,
Did you know that Big Kenny is married to a Calvary Chapel pastor from Orange County?
So MLD what specific songs do you find “acceptable” to sing in church that won’t lull people under 60 to sleep whilst they sing along?
In that case – I hope that “Big Kenny” is female š
London – I don’t know why you think songs with bad theology keep people awake more that songs with good theology – but I guess you have your reasons.
We teach people what is exciting about the songs we sing.
The MWS song dictates that his theology is that the number one reason Jesus went to the cross was that he was thinking about me… above all things
My theology and the reason that the song should not be sung in church is that I believe that Jesus went to the cross to fulfill the will of the Father and that his thoughts were towards the Father… above all things… not me.
But the song does keep people under 60 awake.
MLD.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say anything about liking songs with bad theology. You made that up…and, as expected, you did not answer my question.
I think you just wanted to complain about everyone else and don’t really have any idea of songs that you find suitable.
A couple of publishing groups have set hymns to modern music, which is a pretty good idea IMO.
I remember the culture shock back in 1982 of being in hard rock bars one weekend, and in a 1950’s southern gospel church the next weekend. It messed with my head for a while. I felt guilty every week for wanting to shoot the organ. Fortunately, in this church, everyone got saved all over again every Sunday night, so I was good… š
I looked up Big Kenny and he is not female … so what’s the story about him and the CC pastor? Inquiring minds want to know.
London,
“Donāt put words in my mouth. I did not say anything about liking songs with bad theology.”
I have only been complaining about songs with bad theology. So when you try to beat me up, the only thing I can assume is that you like the songs with bad theology – otherwise you would agree with me. I have said nothing about style of the songs.
Why would you ask about music that would keep people away under 60 – I didn’t say anything about boring music and as I said, we teach people why they are edified singing proper songs..
I dropped my comment because it sounded too much like name dropping…I was trying to get a different point across, but when I re-read it, I really didn’t like how it sounded…sorry, I hate to do that, but it sounded terrible. I apologize. I know that leaves a couple comments hanging, but we’ll leave it at that.
I think Oh No and I were talking about completely different bands. Big Kenny I was talking about is from a country band and lives here in Nashville and I don’t think his wife is a pastor. Not that I know of at least. š
OOps
Married to the daughter of a CC pastro. Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
pastor
Its too early!!!!!
Jim,
Our old song leader (we don’t call the music man the worship leader – that is the pastor) used to arrange old hymns with modern arrangements – you got the contemporary sound with the sound theology … and no stanzas repeated 7 or 8 times.
That is one thing about style – the old hymn writers could think of 7 stanzas that were not the same. Today you get perhaps 3 stanzas and 7 repetitive choruses.
Still not answering the question and just twisting my words.
London,
I don’t know what to say, do you want me to list the top 100 acceptable songs – pick up a Lutheran hymnal. Any contemporary song that has good theology.
You still have not reacted to songs with bad theology – I have pointed out 2, you said one was too long and the other you didn’t like anyway … but do you agree they should not be sung in church. Otherwise you are arguing for something that I am not arguing against.
Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. Only the songs that are in a Lutheran hymnal are acceptable for singing in church.
Gotcha.
Explains a lot about why you don’t like modern music at least. š
As for those two specific songs…I answered that.
No, they shouldn’t be sing on church. The first is too long (9 min)
And the other I don’t like. If I were the worship leader and in charge if song selection they would not be on the playlist.
The MWS song has bad theology and is too whiney.
I don’t like the line, but understand the sentiment, about Jesus having “me” on his mind while he died.
London – now who is being dishonest. My complete statement was;
“pick up a Lutheran hymnal. Any contemporary song that has good theology.”
I think that I included ANY CONTEMPORARY SONG that has good theology.
I love modern music – I said just because it is played on the radio does not make it acceptable for a church service. But some people will just mindlessly sing along.
“but understand the sentiment, about Jesus having āmeā on his mind while he died.”
sentiment is all that it is.
MLD – that is quite a stretch to use the expression “bad theology” just because (quote) I believe that Jesus went to the cross to fulfill the will of the Father and that his thoughts were towards the Fatherā¦ above all thingsā¦ not me.
There is plenty in Scripture to suggest Jesus had the saving of sinners as part of the equation. He was not on some need to know basis simply following the Father’s orders without any clue of the gameplan.
So if your quibble is over simply the words “above all” then fine….at least the song speaks of the crucifixion which is a rarer and rarer thing today.
To my knowledge we have never sung that song – but every week I tell the people “Jesus went to that cross for you. He willingly died for you.”
Bad theology?
Steve, the “above all” is a big deal. I think Hebrews is a good starting point for what Jesus was doing… the will of his Father.
The will of the Father was to save people – the work of Jesus was to fulfill the will of the Father.
So many Christians today are into the benefit to them – and not the work of Christ.
Yes it is a bigger deal than you may think.
MLD.
I don’t think we use the word “contemporary” to mean the same thing.
No dishonesty on my part whatsoever.
You just don’t like it that I’m not agreeing with your assessment.
London,
I mean any song of any times up to the present, and perhaps some that are still in the minds of some song writers, that have good theology.
I reject all hymns, ancient and modern, and all other songs with bad theology.
Speaking of Hebrews…like where we read that Jesus endured the cross “for the joy set before Him”
I guess your take is that the joy was simply “Whew, can’t wait until this is over and I finally get Dad satisfied so He stops asking me to do stuff”
I think the joy had something to do with saving us sinners.
Steve,
Probably more like “When he said above, “You have neither dirsired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.”
Yes, I think “above all” the joy Jesus spoke of was doing the will of the Father.
MLD – if your point is that there is a lot of man-centered focus in some Christian music, you will get no argument from me.
I argue that a disagreement with what is your opinion, (as you throw verses out for support while ignoring verses that might suggest otherwise) is equated to “bad theology”
A song that acknowledges Jesus is eternal, that He came to earth to die, and ends in giving praise and thanks to Him is not the song I would put at the head of the line of man-centered focus.
In fact, if I may be so bold š , I think your problem lies in your faulty Christology which we have discussed here ad naseum in the past, as you confuse the two Natures of Christ. Where is the deity of Jesus when you speak of Him as simply following orders of God the Father?
The Bible of course speaks of both, in connection to the two Natures. Yes, Jesus did the will of the Father, but yes, He was certainly focused on saving sinners – for there is no contradiction between the two statements.
Last word is yours…
“Where is the deity of Jesus when you speak of Him as simply following orders of God the Father? ”
Perhaps our difference IS actually in Christology. I would never place the work of Christ in the position of following orders. That makes your Christology one where Jesus could be disobedient and choose not to follow orders. The will of the Father and the will of the Son are the same.. and Jesus clearly says that he is carrying out the will of the Father.
Look, you have not addressed the issue – is it above all things that Jesus thought of me? or is it that Jesus did the will of the Father Above all things.”
I think you are in a protectionist mode or it’s that ‘filter’ through which you look at scripture. š
An old CC wisdom thought – “how many drops of poison does it take to render a glass of water undrinkable.?” Look, I didn’t call him a heretic, I just think it is sloppy bad theology. Perhaps it rhymed so he used it.
The will of the Father and the will of the Son are the same.
——————————————————————
“Not my will, but thine be done…”
Steve,
Just when I thought you understood the 2 natures, you relapse. Now you are sounding like my argument.
Before the incarnation the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the same will – we see nothing to the contrary.
In the incarnation, Jesus does have somewhat of a separate will, brought on by his new fleshly wants and needs (just as I don’t think pre incarnation Jesus ever hungered or thirsted)
So my point exactly – Jesus did the will of his Father – how can I say this… “Above all things”
Seems that the “Holy Father” is going a little too far for some Catholics, http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/conservative-catholics-question-pope-franciss-approach/2013/10/12/21d7f484-2cf4-11e3-8ade-a1f23cda135e_story.html