Smoked Dove

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  1. Bob Sweat says:


    Phoenix Preacher Alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    More ODM verbiage

  2. Please Note says:

    Prasch is such a buffoon.

    About Piper he says he “… has always misled others on various other points.”

    Wow, way to research & document your accusations.

    What other points? How has he misled people? From what litmus test are you gauging his erroneous teachings?

    I also find it hilarious that he can’t even spell Raul Ries’ name right, yet apparently he endorses him. Too funny.

    I hate that he’s getting air time here, but folks need to know….

  3. Michael says:

    I hate having to defend Skip… 🙂

    I’m starting to cramp up…

  4. Bob Sweat says:


    Try GasX 😯

  5. Michael says:



  6. bishopdave says:

    As an outsider, may I ask: Is Chuck considered to speak ex cathedra? Because that is what this clown seems to be claiming.

  7. jlo says:

    So are those pastors on Jacobs “endorsed” list going to have to disassociate with those on the “heretics” list? Seems they have ties to one another. Back in march the following shared the stage to teach at a leadership conference in Tuscon: Skip Heitzig, Jack Hibbs, Gayle Erwin, James MacDonald, Levi Lusco, Damian Kyle, Pedro Garcia, Alistar Begg, Don Mclure, and Robert Furrow.

  8. Michael says:


    That was excellent!

  9. Erunner says:

    People trust their pastors and those whom their pastor look up to. They are taught to think within the box the pastor chooses to create and pretty much follow the unspoken agenda.

    The pastor opens the word to them. He explains why his positions are sound and to be adhered to. A family atmosphere may be created. Since the pastor is God’s representative on earth nobody will question him for the most part. It worked on me.

    It’s cool being in the know. It’s cool hearing reports from inside China warning us of another Tienemen Square that was to come the following year. (Never Happened) It’s cool having the news shown as prophecy unfolding. It’s cool hearing Prince Charles may be the anti-christ.

    It’s not cool having a stale walk with God built on sand and soon you just get sick of it all. No one in the church is safe these days. It’s only a matter of time till another brother or sister is warning others of your devilish ways.

  10. Tim says:


    News flash to the ODMs: there’s a Great Commission we’ve been given. Perhaps we could better spend our time sharing the gospel with those who are lost?

  11. Xenia says:

    You know, in a way this is Calvary Chapel’s fault. They sowed the seeds of this. My old CC used to (not so much anymore) host counter-cult seminars, preached against all groups except CC and had a lot of anti-cult literature in the bookstore. They were very much “we are right everyone else is wrong” in their approach. On another board (CARM) where I used to read it’s the CC posters who are the most hysterical about this stuff. They are currently very critical of CC itself.

  12. Xenia says:

    It’s that 2nd degree of shunning that keeps these ODMs ‘ fires fueled. It’s not that Pastor A believes a heresy, it’s that Pastor A ate lunch with the heretical Pastor B.

  13. Preston says:

    I’ve got to believe most CC Pastor’s who get these letters from Bryson & Prasch in their mailbox, probably immediately file them in the trash can.

    That said, I’ve got to say… Xenia’s 11:35 was pretty much my experience too.

  14. Not Chuck Smith says:

    I thought Piper was NOT a replacement theology guy. What else is wrong with the article?

  15. Nonnie says:

    Xenia, you have spoken well.
    What a sad situation this is. Gayle Erwin just oozes Jesus and lifts preaches the gospel in power and love. Cheap shots.

  16. Bob Sweat says:

    If more people in ministry were like Gayle Erwin, Phoenix Preacher might never had happen. Having said that, I’m glad it did happen. 😉

  17. Bob Sweat says:


    Have have observed your 11:35 in my limited experience with CC. But I see a change taking place. At our Men’s Retreat this coming weekend, Kent Hughes is the speaker.

  18. Another Voice says:

    But how can I defend some of those claiming to be Calvary Chapels who no longer by their actions believe or do what Chuck taught?”
    Let me say how much I love Pastor Chuck. I owe him more than he will ever know, or I could ever pay.

    I hope Chuck goes to his reward very soon.

    Too many people are claiming to talk for Chuck. Men whom Chuck loves and has both pastored and encouraged for decades. Chuck is not up for fresh battles with close friends, and I don’t think he should have to be.

    Whatever the movement’s future happens to be, it won’t get there until Chuck goes to glory. I say, “Let’s get it on.” and say so with the highest respect.

  19. Michael says:


    I hear your heart… and you’re right.

  20. Bob Sweat says:



  21. Another Voice says:


    I’m getting tired of men like Bryson claiming their 40-year relationship with Chuck entitles them to special knowledge.

    I’ve listened to the whole Genesis-Revelation tapes. TWICE.
    I’ve sat in person and listened for many years on Sunday morning, evening, and midweek.
    I’ve been privileged to be at some closed sessions with him and hear him share his heart.

    And I have NEVER heard him spout the nonsense that these ‘veterans’ are spouting.

    I HAVE heard him say on many occasions that the church down the street is not the enemy. That there is great fellowship to be had among believers in other denominations.

    I HAVE heard him express his displeasure at those who would use CC Costa Mesa for their own personal agendas.

    And as I showed the other day, I have read Distinctives and know that what we see today goes against much of what is written in that booklet which SUPPOSEDLY is to be the governing agreement of the CC Movement.

  22. Bob Sweat says:


    I have no reason to doubt your 12:35………………..Why does Chuck remain silent as all this takes place? It seems that a word of rebuke would go along way with these men who respect him so much.

  23. Michael says:


    Chuck is trying to quietly finish well…that’s really all that concerns him at this point from what I know.

  24. Michael says:

    “Advise: Never try to rescue a drowning cat with your bare hands.”

    LOL! 🙂

  25. Em says:

    AV,”Whatever the movement’s future happens to be, it won’t get there until Chuck goes to glory.”

    can i go too, please? 😉

  26. Another Voice says:

    Bob, I could only speculate. I don’t know Chuck personally as in a one-on-one friendship.

    Of course, I can speculate with the best of them… 😉

    But since that is all it would be, I would rather stay quiet and let my two earlier posts be my main comments on this subject.

  27. Bob Sweat says:


    I guess it comes down to how one defines “finish well”. I want to finish well too, but to me that would also mean “understood well”. I say that with no disrespect intended.

  28. Bob Sweat says:


    Did you get my email?

  29. Em says:

    AV,”And I have NEVER heard him spout the nonsense that these ‘veterans’ are spouting”

    i’m willing to bet that comment applies to a lot of the Church’s leadership … mebbe all the way back to our Lord

    you guys, keep up the good work here

    BTW – it is a good work

  30. Michael says:


    You make a good point and I know you mean no disrespect.

    What it comes down to from where I sit is that he views all these issues as unsolvable so he has retreated to what he knows best…teaching the Word.

  31. Michael says:


    You’re not finished yet either… 🙂

  32. I don’t get George’s letters and I dumped Prasch along time ago about the same time I dumped the Alnor report.

    Interesting about lists that pastors get on; to get off one is to get on another and vice versa!!

  33. Another Voice says:

    Bob, I did..will return it later though. Sort of off and on here for now, working on some other things.

    Thanks for writing.

  34. This is why I don’t go the the CC Pastor’s conferences…We got side tracked along the way and got our focus off our goal on these types of issues. I can hear it now “Leonard Sweet and Skip Hetizig are punks” and 1/2 the crowd will applaud the other half will walk out

  35. Another Voice says:

    Steve…I guess you missed it last year when Dave Rolph gave a shout-out to Michael.


  36. AV
    Yeah I did…but I heard about it

  37. Another Voice says:

    That last thing was supposed to be the ‘shocked’ smiley face thingy.


  38. You need some schoolin’ on your smiley faces :mrgreen:

  39. Michael says:

    I haven’t finished Sweet’s new book yet…but so far it’s an amazing piece of Christological writing…

  40. Another Voice says:


    That’s why I usually just ‘wink’ at everybody. It’s the only one I have down right!

    😉 😉 😉 😉

  41. Another Voice says:


    I have had FOUR, count ’em, FOUR people at my fellowship ask me with nervous fear about his appearance at that conference.

    I talked them off the ledge and convinced them to put the shotgun down. (To mix metaphors but both apply in the Sweet situation).

    I may have to install the bizarro rule….

    Where people at the fellowship can only read or listen to non-Calvary pastors and all Calvary stuff outside our doors is prohibited.

  42. Michael says:


    That’s why we have to keep talking about this …real fellowships and real people are affected every day.

    This is a disease that will take down even a healthy church if not addressed with scripture and reason.

  43. Remember that old H.G. Wells movie “The First Men in the Moon” where a guy in the 1800’s comes up with a substance that enables him to travel in a space ship to the moon? He encounters life forms but years later, when astronauts landed, they found the lifeforms all dead because the scientist that landed in the 1800’s had a cold and so the people in the moon all died of the common cold…could be what is happening in Evangelicalism right now…we are killing ourselves off…AND to the delight of all who watch!

  44. Michael says:


    That’s an interesting analogy…well said.

  45. Josh Hamrick says:

    Has Chuck ever formally claimed to disfellowship Lonnie and Wimber?

  46. Michael says:


    Good question…don’t know about Lonnie, pretty sure about Wimber, though he left on his own.

  47. PxP
    I don’t know where you stand on Warren Smith. My guess is you were like me. When he was done speaking, I was ashamed and angry at the same time.

    I know of your long relationship with Pastor Chuck and while I have great respect for him, I fault him for allowing this disorganization continue in the movement.

  48. BrianD says:

    Is the Sweet book released yet?

  49. I believe the Sr Pastor’s conferences could be better spent preparing CC to tackle issue facing our culture today. Problem is CC moves forward looking in the rear view mirror instead of taking and strategizing of how CC can be relevant and effective in the future. It’s very disturbing.

    CC is becoming a memorial to the tent!

  50. Michael says:


    End of May…

  51. Isaiah56:1 says:

    This reminds me very much of the Black Knight skit from Monty Python

    It’s bloody and ridiculous at the same time
    (of course it’s not really all that funny in real life)

  52. Josh at #47

    Does Church “Formally” do anything? Serious question. BTW Chuck has done some great things. But our weaknesses catch up to us sooner or later…and Chuck has them. He is a great teacher, but I don’t think he by nature is a great organizer. Nor do I think he world well in groups. He is a CEO visionary type of guy.

    The movement grew inspite of that and every one said “Wowee look at Chuck is doing” and many copied his style. But now some real direction and leadership into the future is required and he is not provoding it nor is stepping aside or encouraging others to take the lead.

    Moses trained Joshua…He took the next generation of Jews into the promised land. Where is the Joshua for CC?

  53. BrianD says:

    I await your review then.

    I picked up Metaxas’s Bonhoeffer biography. It’s long. Perhaps I will have it finished by May. 🙂

  54. Does “Chuck” formally do anything…sorry

  55. Another Voice says:

    Moses trained Joshua…He took the next generation of Jews into the promised land. Where is the Joshua for CC?

    At my time there Chuck was constantly talking about taking it to the 3rd generation. This was years ago, but he used Israel’s history for an example that it would be a mistake to constantly look back to the days of the tent. Can’t tell you how many times I heard this.

    I know that is (or was) heavy on his heart.

    Might the problem be that those who agreed with Chuck went and did just that? They began to think (and read) for themselves, still with the Bible as the authority, and are now looking forward to what God is doing and what He is GOING to do in the future (apart from just waiting for the rapture). While still being aligned with the basic doctrines associated with CC, they also realized what a blessing the ministry of a Piper could be to them and their flock, and that Rick Warren and others are not their real enemy.

    The problem then being that those left behind, who desperately try to perfect in the flesh what God did in the Spirit, are the ones actually NOT sharing the heart of Chuck.

    Of course, they have been around Chuck for 40 years, and I have only about 20 under my belt – so what do I know.

    I need to take my place at the back of the bus and understand clearly that I will not be the “sort” of pastor who speaks at any of the big conferences or teaches in any of the colleges.

    Of course, I’m not interested in those gigs anyway.

  56. Bryan Stupar says:

    To be honest, it’s situations like these that temp me to distance myself from the dove. I wonder if redemption for the name/movement is obtainable, especially in light of those “contentious for the faith” and their malformed offspring, seem to be posturing for a coup.

    If the prerequisite for being in the CC tribe is to stand opposed to, Piper, Calvinists, Rick Warren, Beth Moore, and the massive list composed by Bryson, Prasch, and the ODM’s (who are still greeted w/ open arms in MANY CC’s), then, I see a future exodus. I DO NOT believe any of the above reflects Chuck heart or view. But, to stay silent/tolerant while these contentious ODM’s & Bryson types, subversively inject falsities & exaggerations into unsuspecting sheep, is akin to a form of complicity, and not grace. Part of shepherding sheep well is to warm of wolves, as well as quarantining rabid sheep, until they’re nursed back to health, benefiting the community, and not biting it.

    I agree, with the above about Chuck…He’s a godly man, who’s lived a long & fulfilling, life. He’s tired, and has fought MANY a good fight, and may not have the strength (or time) to verbally joust the likes of Bryson/Prasch. I feel it’s high time that someone w/ cajones & the universal respect among the CC tribe, to address & expose the damage/danger these quarrelsome brothers are causing…(methinks Dave Rolph) 😆

    Churches will be torn apart by the likes of these aforementioned, “ministries”. The darkness they fight, they fight with darkness….Putting the fire out by throwing straw at it only makes it burn stronger.


  57. Isaiah56:1 says:

    These letter going out seem to be classic cases of deflection. I don’t think it reflects all of CC, but certain “sub-goups” within the movement.

    Having a common enemy allows the group to be defined by what they are against, or what they are not, which encourages continual criticism and evaluation of what’s wrong with the “others” while passively discouraging much inspection of the internals of the unhealthy group. Everyone is so busy pointing fingers and feeling superior that they are able to completely ignore what would cause red flags if anyone was paying attention.

  58. Isaiah56:1 says:


  59. Bryan Stupar says:

    I think you’re correct.
    This is a sad testimony and one that most certainly doesn’t reflect the NT standard.
    It’s sad that a groups’ unity is built upon what they’re against…sad, very sad!
    All of this is a subtle attempt of the dragon to rally people around ANYTHING, accept the Gospel.

  60. Isaiah56:1 says:

    It’s so sad. One of the most pathetic parts is that it seems like they think they are building unity with this destructive technique.

    The mutual goal of opposition against an individual or group is an effective, if twisted, team-building dynamic.

  61. Michael says:


    Excellent word…

  62. Another Voice says:

    CC unity to me has been (in no real order):

    1) Pretrib, premill, Israel distinct from Church,literal interpretation etc.
    2) Teaching the entire Bible, book by book.
    3) A ‘contemporary’ (for lack of better word) music in worship.
    4) Accepting all the gifts, but without the excesses that have no Bible support.
    5) Burden for evangelism, missions and new church plants.
    6) Not begging for money, volunteers for service etc.
    7) No emphasis on organized church ‘programs’, attendance contests etc.

    These are the things that attracted me and were modelled by Pastor Chuck to me over the years.

  63. Michael says:

    One more thing…what these creeps are doing to Gayle Erwin is despicable.

    He supports himself by touring the churches…and now he’s being blacklisted by some.

  64. Another Voice says:

    I also think Chuck has tricked everyone.

    He is 83 years old, yet basically looks the same year after year we see him.
    He is 83 years old, yet basically talks and teaches with the same clarity year after year.

    But remember, he is 83 years old.

    83 years old, and just had a stroke.
    83 years old, with an equally aging wife of his youth.
    83 years old, with only so many opportunities to be with the grandkids.

    Frankly, I won’t lay blame at Chuck’s doorstep for all this.

    These men who brag about their walks with the Lord (and Chuck) for forty years (like Bryson) are to blame for this mess today. Those men in the shadows at CCOF are to blame.

    Maybe I am to blame too….

    Chuck Smith is 83 years old. Most don’t live that long, and those who do are blessed if they can still feed themselves and use the bathroom. How can I expect him to take on the stress of rebuking the men he loves? Frankly, how much can I even be assured that he even knows what all is taking place?

    I hope he enjoys his wife, grand and greatgrandchildren, the radio show and the pulpit while he still is able..

    Others in the movement should take this ball…

  65. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Gayle Erwin has been such a blessing, and example, to so many people! He is an incredible example of grace in ministry. I will be praying for him.

  66. pardon the interruption says:

    I second the nomination of Dave Rolph to bust some chops, in love, when it comes to those pernicious ODM dividers of the brethren. Use that bully pulpit, Dave.

  67. Isaiah56:1 says:

    So I’m sitting here thinking about Gayle Erwin and all I have learned from listening to him and reading his books. He has taught me a lot.

    My favorite works of his are not his better know Style series books, but the audio book copies of “The Reminds Me of A Story” and “That Reminds Me of Another Story”. They are entertaining, great for listening to in the car with the whole family (even the kids liked them) on road trips, and full of examples of what it looks like to live a life following God imperfectly, and the grace and victory that comes from that pursuit. May God bless Gayle for being so transparent, and funny!

  68. Isaiah56:1 says:

    talk about imperfect – where did I learn to type? or is it my spelling? sorry!

  69. Bob Sweat says:

    “The guys who sided hard with Paul Smith wanted a type of “purging” in CC. Paul had a mental list of churches he wanted thrown out of the movement. It was turning into a witchhunt when Chuck let his brother go.”


    That’s not what I heard as far as Chuck letting Paul go. I heard it was more of a Brian B call. But again, you probably know more than me.


    As far as who takes over for Moses? With all due respect, drop the Moses.


    You are right on with your posts! Excuse me, make that “spot on”! Gotta sound contemporary.


    You too!!!


    I’ll join with that second. I’d pay money to see Rolph square off with the CC dude from Maine (forgot his name, called Warren a puke) 🙂 I’m sure he and Dave are friends, but it would still look good in the Octagon! 😉

  70. Michael says:


    It’s all good…we can hear your heart.

  71. Bob Sweat says:

    I’ll be Gayle Erwin’s wingman any day of the week. Just watched Top Gun again the other night. 🙂

  72. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Thanks Michael. Sometimes my fingers and my brain just don’t sinc up – especially when I let myself get worked up over stuff like this. It’s so sad…

    Bob, A match up with Ken Graves (I think that who you are referring too) and Dave Rolph huh? I’d buy a ticket for sure….

  73. Isaiah56:1 says:

    I’ve been out of the Calvary loop for a little while, but most of the people mentioned in Jacob’s article I know or am at least familiar with somewhat, but Jacob Prasch is pretty much unknown to me. I read through his website some, but couldn’t find a big Calvary connection. Can someone fill me in? Is making the rounds through Calvary’s and just hasn’t made it our way yet? Has he been around for years and years and I just never crossed paths with him or heard of his organization?

  74. David says:

    This might be the funniest website on the internet 🙂 Your group also has a list of people that you think are wrong. It’s just that, your list is a little shorter than the ODM lists. 🙂

    It’s still a list.

    Why are you always right, and the ODM’s are all wrong all the time?

    Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (you know where this is from).

  75. Another Voice says:

    As far as who takes over for Moses? With all due respect, drop the Moses.
    I was quoting Hopkins…My answer, if unclear, really had nothing to do with Moses but more about being there when God was at work – seeing Him work in person. Not just hearing about it from the prior generation.

  76. Michael says:


    He’s been around a lot…dispensationalists love anyone who can combine end times and Israel. 🙂

  77. Michael says:


    The problem is that the folks the ODM’s accuse are brothers and sisters, not the enemy and part of the Anti- Christ agenda.

    They are occasionally correct…even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then.

    The problem is that their acorns are usually covered with a layer of pig stuff…

  78. David says:


    Some of the ODM’s would say the same about the things you say 🙂

    The ODM’s obviously don’t agree that certain people are brothers and sisters in Jesus, that you believe to be brothers and sisters in Jesus. I think on many cases, they are right, which is why they take so many shots. Nobody will be popular if they attack the unity movement.

    I think that’s one of the great blessings of the Lord in the provision of the internet. They can say what they please and they don’t have to listen to you, and you have the same privilege.

  79. Michael says:

    “Nobody will be popular if they attack the unity movement”

    That would be John 17…. that’s the only unity movement I care about.

  80. Dave Rolph says:

    So, I’ve been nominated as team captain in a pissing contest with a bunch of skunks? I am so flattered. 😉

  81. Michael says:

    ‘The ODM’s obviously don’t agree that certain people are brothers and sisters in Jesus, that you believe to be brothers and sisters in Jesus.”

    At least you’re honest…

  82. Bryan Stupar says:

    David, I can’t speak for all here but myself & the distinction I’d make in your assessment/question,
    “Your group also has a list of people that you think are wrong. It’s just that, your list is a little shorter than the ODM lists.” and
    “Why are you always right, and the ODM’s are all wrong all the time?”

    1. I’m not breaking fellowship with them (nor am I ignoring that fact that it’s easy)
    2. I’m not calling to question their salvation,
    3. Nor causing others via second generation report to do the same.

    We actually welcome ODM’s to come here and dialog. Most refuse to do this.
    Rarely if ever are they open to this…this IMO is unfortunate.

    Personally what I’d like to see, is the ODM’s admit that they have forgotten who the real enemy is (Eph 6:11-13), while they substitute targets like Beth Moore, Gail Erwin, Piper, RW and others, slandering them all over the internet. After repenting I’d love to see them rejoin the team of Jesus’ body, becasue we need strong people fighting/contending for the gospel. But IMO, the line between contending and contentiousness has been blurred.

  83. Em says:

    Pastor Steve,”Moses trained Joshua…He took the next generation of Jews into the promised land. Where is the Joshua for CC”
    perhaps, there’s something to be said for ‘annointing’ … altho the term has been misused IMO, i was reading today where old Jacob blessed Ephraim and his blessing foretold what Joshua (out of Ephraim’s line, they said) was destined to do further down the line… was Pastor Smith predestined for a time and place and now that time and place and work is finished?
    how much does man control? how much is God’s directive blessing … or predestination
    that said, i’m really beginning to see the need for serious biblical and systematic theology – but suspect it is done by a chosen few and fed to the rest of us… dunno 🙄

  84. Michael says:


    Not only that, but the vote was unanimous… 🙂

  85. deadmanwalking says:

    Blind pigs –that’s funny —

    Michael Pig Stuff — you are really getting mellow but in this case mellow was funnier.

    David – a good reminder that we all need to step back once in a while and laugh at ourselves.

    I guess like Spurgeon once said of some group that they were all grunt and no bacon.

    We here at PP are deliver more bacon per grunt.

  86. Michael says:


    Age has taken it’s toll…but I’m trying to learn to be as offensive as before without the effort. 🙂

  87. deadmanwalking says:

    I’ve been around 40 years. And my special insight is that I know could never pretend to speak for Chuck, or to say that I know this or that, I’ll be honest to me Chuck Smith has always been an enigma, I feel like I know him really well and I feel like I don’t know him at all. It’s not that he is a complex man but he is a man that I find it hard to know. For one thing he really doest say all that much. I have met with Chuck a few times over the years and each time I leave feeling like he was fully behind me and for me, but as I was driving home I realized that all he did was listen to me, and the pray with me. He really didn’t say anything. I have seen a lot of guys tell me that they talked to Chuck and he was fully behind them, and I smile to myself knowing that all Chuck did was show them love, listen and pray for them, and then they run wild they take the things they told Chuck and the say “Chuck said” or “Chuck told me” when in truth Chuck probably just listened and prayed with them. I learned to go to Romaine. After a talk with Romaine there was never any doubt about the counsel he gave, it was clear, concise, and usually not what I wanted to hear. But I knew Romaine with give it to me straight and in my experience he was always right, not that I alway did what he said, but those times I didn’t follow his counsel I learned the hard way that he knew what he was talking about.

  88. Another Voice says:

    I learned to go to Romaine. After a talk with Romaine there was never any doubt about the counsel he gave, it was clear, concise, and usually not what I wanted to hear. But I knew Romaine with give it to me straight and in my experience he was always right, not that I alway did what he said, but those times I didn’t follow his counsel I learned the hard way that he knew what he was talking about.
    Maybe the truest thing said in this thread today.

    Could we get a ‘cloning exception’ for Romaine to keep the movement going??

  89. Another Voice says:

    They can say what they please and they don’t have to listen to you
    And then those who read them run to pastors like me in a panic, and we get to clean up their mess.

    Sure no harm done…not like we have anything better to do with our counsel time. What’s substance abuse, divorce, molestation, loss of job, family, inome, home – when we can go after a Calvinist!

  90. Another Voice says:

    dispensationalists love anyone who can combine end times and Israel
    now now Michael…. 🙂

  91. Michael says:


    I’m a dispie…kind of… 🙂

  92. centorian says:

    Xenia sez:
    “You know, in a way this is Calvary Chapel’s fault. They sowed the seeds of this. My old CC used to (not so much anymore) host counter-cult seminars, preached against all groups except CC and had a lot of anti-cult literature in the bookstore.”

    Hard to argue with that statement, although the fault does not lay with Calvary Chapel alone. It seems that balance is a rare commodity within the church, I wonder if it is a characteristic in any of us. There is clearly a Biblical admonition to anticipate the Lord’s soon return. What began as a healthy watch became in some cases a hyper obsession than in some cases has birthed into hysteria that has linked arm in arm with a doomsday scenario that will keep you up at nights.

    Oh Jacob!!!…, that would be Erwin, not Irwin. Let me suggest some excellent books for you to read. YHWH Style, Jesus Style, Spirit Style, and Body Style… and yes, Gayle Erwin is the author. Oh and that list of endorsements of Calvary pastors, well, be prepared to eat a little crow, as unkosher as it may be.

    I am still amazed of how many want to define Warren Smith’s appearance at the 2008 SPC as a watershed moment. Very rarely is so much made about so little… I wonder if I made Paul’s hatchet list?

  93. Babylon's Dread says:

    Leonard Sweet? I just may have to go see Leonard….last time he was in town we had a great time and he was amazing. I have the message here somewhere.

    Front Row Dread

  94. centorian says:

    Babylon’s Dread on the front row at C of A………… now, seeing that might be worth the price of admission…………. 8)

  95. Michael says:

    I’m afraid to finish Sweet and Violas book…at this point it could very well end up being a Christian classic.


  96. BrianD says:


    Raul and Xavier Reese (Ries)
    Damian Khyle (Kyle)
    Bill (Bil) Gallatin
    Daryl (Derald?) Skinner

  97. Babylon's Dread says:

    I have ordered the book Michael,

    How is it that you get these advance copies?

    Jealous Dread

  98. centorian says:

    I do find it interesting that some of the discernment types are either directly or indirectly calling for, or predicting a split within Calvary Chapel.

  99. Michael says:


    Frank Viola set it up for me…he likes the blog. 🙂

  100. Michael says:


    They are actively working for a split…and I think they could get their way…

  101. Babylon's Dread says:

    Well Michael,

    I look forward to the book… even though I have little regard for Viola and his endless critique of the church.

  102. Michael says:


    I’m five chapters in and so far the book just raises up Jesus page after page.

    I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop…

  103. victorious says:

    Any Joshua worth listening to and following is found in Rev.2-3.

    Centy. I love Erwin’s Frontier Theology.

  104. David says:

    Michael wrote: “That would be John 17…. that’s the only unity movement I care about.”

    You sound like a catholic man. The catholics always bring up that verse, when anyone questions whether something might be amiss.

    Oh well. Sorry to interrupt the Group Think 🙂

  105. Michael says:


    That’s the kind of ignorance that disgusts me.

    John 17 contains the words of Jesus and He spoke of His desire that we pursue unity.

    You twist the very words of Christ…and that is despicable and blasphemous.

  106. Michael says:

    Stupid jackass…

  107. Michael says:

    You can’t explain yourself theologically and you can’t engage in ideas so all you have are accusations and tired cliches that you’ve heard someone equally ignorant speak, all the while condemning family members to the fire.

    Stupid jackass…

  108. Em says:

    i’d like to think that the Church is catholic and some even are RCs

    God keep all close this nite

  109. Believe says:

    Well, nothing like good timing…

    Phoenixbelieve…rising from the ashes 🙂

    David, don’t take it personally (easier said than done)…

    I’ve received my rebukes and done some soul searching…and Michael is right in what he’s saying (though he could phrase it a tad more diplomatically…)

    I am studying my ass off…I feel like I’m in seminary.

    One really shouldn’t engage with the Theologians on issues of Theology…lesson learned (for me).

    Also, stirring the pot and being contentious is not a “gift” or a fruit of the Spirit.

    While I’ve added value many times to the PP dialogue…there are many times I’ve been a contentious jerk and distracted from the good being done here.

    I’ve apologized offline, sought forgiveness and am repenting.

    My pride has been tweaked at times…and I’ve sinned mightily in responding poorly. My anger has turned into sin many times also. But, let’s try this again…

    I’ve also had a mini crisis of Faith…though I didn’t realize it at first…after another very unpleasant (out-of-the-blue) negative experience with a long-time pastor (offline…not part of the PP in any way).

    I’m recommitted to engaging…without “arguing”…but rather discussing…not to stir the pot and be contentious (as B. Stupar rightly warns)..but to contend…which edifies.

    All who I’ve offended…I apologize and ask forgiveness…I need a good ol’ grace shower…and I repent and will get back on the horse and try again. Love the PPeeps 🙂

  110. The vote for the pissing match with a bunch of skunks may have been unanimous for Rolph but I abstained!! :mrgreen:

  111. Michael says:


    I want David to take it personally…when these people twist the scriptures to justify their judgmentalism it’s war time.

    I won’t put up with that crap for two seconds.

  112. Gayle Erwin is one of the finest men I know. He was my campus pastor 37 years ago When I attended SCC (Vanguard University now). I traveled to Israel with him two years ago and we all had the bestest time. Some one takes on Gayle better be ready for a fight cause there will be a whole lotta KJV donkey kickin’ from a lotta people who feel the same way about Gayle as me

  113. Believe says:

    Michael…Ok…I’ll stay out of that one…

  114. Michael says:


    I have reports that they have done much damage to Erwin…

  115. Michael says:


    These people need targets because they aren’t fulfilled by the fruit of the Spirit.

    Real people are becoming real casualties and I’ve had enough…and I could care less how much I offend them.

    Besides that, they made me defend Heitzig… 🙂

  116. BrianD says:

    Michael, that’s horriffic if that’s true.

  117. Michael says:


    The sources were good…it’s not only financial damage, but think about living a life dedicated to Christ and then being labeled a false teacher and a wolf.

    It’s despicable.

  118. BrianD says:

    About Erwin, I mean.

  119. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Leonard Sweet is brilliant, not Lutheran, but brilliant none the less. He seems to get in trouble because he is trying to deliver a message to a generation that is not listening. So, he experiments with delivery and he keeps trying until he get’s someone to lift their head to listen.

  120. Michael says:


    That’s a very strong endorsement coming from you…I’m slightly shocked. 🙂

  121. Believe says:

    Michael…got it. I’m all about righteous anger…I just don’t have a good gauge personally…I start thinking all my anger is righteous…and then I go after everyone…

    …then I over-correct and want to not judge anyone…reading the somewhat Liberal Theologians recently.

    There are lines in both directions…gonna personally seek to find the balance…

    As far as you go…do your thing and let me know if I get in the way…and I’ll make the adjustment on my end.

    Defending Heitzig…that’s gonna require some Kahlua 🙂

  122. Believe says:

    “then being labeled a false teacher and a wolf.”

    That’s a terribly hurtful weapon.

    Being called an unbeliever, a heretic or an evildoer as laity…or a false teacher or wolf as a pastor…have all got to be the most hurtful things that can be said of a believer.

    You should have a pretty air-tight case (and even then to be used with caution) when throwing those bombs around. It really hurts…I know from personal experience.

  123. Erunner says:

    I probably represent a lot of folks in CC. I was saved in 1976 and had zero exposure to religion of any sort. It was all new for me and I was filled with joy at my new found salvation. All I wanted to do is share what I had found. So I talked to people about Jesus. God honored that and many were saved.

    I was in error though as I soon came to equate the church with CC. A good friend asked me after all of my talking if anybody outside of CC would be in Heaven. What he said made me think but really didn’t deter me.

    I soon learned what I was saved from. Sadly I equated that with the cults and the false teachers. I learned to speak with cult members and pointed out the errors of the Oral Robers and Robert Schuller’s of the world. I was forgetting my past very quickly. Not my testimony as I used it often in sharing. I was becoming dull to my own sin and my personal walk with God.

    My biggest mistakes had to do with Bible prophecy. I was blown away by “A Thief In The Night” and the movie Pastor Chuck made. Knowing that the day’s headlines could be lined up with Scripture fascinated me and fascinated many I shared with.

    Fascination with prophecy doesn’t necessarily create legitimate converts. One of my cousins got saved after a movie night that showed “A Thief In The Night” but would not claim to be a believer today. The emotions wear off and life goes on. The seed didn’t fall on good soil.

    Through the years I was always looking for error so I could protect people. I was one of those who couldn’t see beyond Calvary Chapel. It really wasn’t until I arrived here that I learned differently. That may indicate this place is dangerous to some but it is not.

    All of this was my doing. It was not Pastor Chuck or any other Pastor along the way. I chose what I wanted to focus on. It made me feel superior as I went about pointing out error to others.

    The casualty was a vital and personal relationship with Jesus. Deep down I despised myself for so many reasons. I never believed God had much interest in me. I was afraid of God’s spirit as I believed He would expose me to the church. That’s why I sent my wife to the midweek studies. The Holy Spirit had a way of showing up. I couldn’t chance it.

    Those years were not a waste though. God did love me and wanted to use me. He wanted to be my Abba Father. I was too afraid.

    Calvary Chapel offered me so much more. It was not their fault I chose otherwise.

    The Christian life can be very easy and the mission quite simple. I don’t believe that is God’s best for us though. It’s easy to find fault. It’s easy to smirk after speaking with another person. It’s easy to do a lot of stuff. That’s not what following Jesus and picking up our crosses daily is all about. I know as I’m still learning.

  124. centorian says:

    After reading Prasch’s website, I was reminded of this passage.

    Jhn 16:1-3 “These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

    This is a heavy thing to consider, and no doubt the consideration is one the other side of the table as well. The church used to be content with shooting the wounded. We now live in a day when the church is rabid to bite and devour each other, and assassinate the character of those who’s views or associations don’t pass the mustard. There is suspicion and malice and all the while in our heart of hearts we affirm our own membership within the Kingdom.

    If there is persecution coming, and I’m hearing with greater frequency that it is, I wonder if there will be enough of us to stand.

  125. Michael says:


    Well said…very well said.

  126. Michael says:


    That was right on…and scary.

  127. centorian says:

    … BTW, Prasch…….

    Gayle Erwin is speaking this Saturday at Calvary Chapel Modesto along with Mike Macintosh… of course, you know that Damian Kyle is the pastor of CC Modesto… what say ye about your list now Prasch? 8)

  128. A E A says:

    Dave Rolf, make sure you stay hydrated.

    I can’t believe anyone would take seriously someone who came against Gayle.

    His track record is too good.
    This has got to backfire on the odm’s, they are an embarrassment.

  129. Michael says:

    I can’t review the book until the end of May…but Sweet and Viola have written an astounding book.

    Just finished…

  130. Michael says:

    I stole this from Bob Sweat…

    “Involuntary ignorance is not charged against you as a fault; but your fault is this—you neglect to inquire into the things you are ignorant of.” Augustine

  131. Michael says:


    Lighthouse Trails and Prasch have both trashed him…good line about Rolph and the need for fluids… 🙂

  132. Believe says:

    Great quote…using the recent events as motivation to correct the situation.

  133. A E A says:

    I have driven hundreds of miles to listen
    (and watch, he uses his entire roundish body when he communicates)
    to Gayle. He and his wife Ada are the real deal.

    I wouldn’t walk across the street to hear Prasch.

  134. Michael says:


    That quote applies to all of us at some time.
    It especially applies to ODM’s all the time. 🙂

  135. Sarah says:

    Just sent Gayle a note of encouragement….might suggest that we all do so.

  136. Bob Sweat says:


    Can you share Gayle’s email?

  137. Michael says:


    Excellent idea!

    Not sure he’d appreciate one from the Phoenix Preacher, but the rest of you get busy!

  138. A E A says:

    there may be churches that listen to them, but most of the guys they put on the “trusted” list are real tight with Gayle.

    They will eventually be exposed as mean spirited and petty.

    I think they picked the wrong victim. It’s easier to malign someone to people that don’t really know the person beyond a name.

    But Gayle has had years of exposure and too many have been genuinely blessed by him.
    He’ll have far more defenders that opponent in the CC circles, and beyond.

  139. Michael says:


    They need to stand up and stand with him…

    I have never listened to him speak, but he’s one of the few people I’ve never heard a bad word about…except from ODM’s.

  140. Michael says:


    He’s on Facebook…

  141. Babylon's Dread says:

    This is the latest garbage from the Judaizers this guy is evangelizing Christians to leave Chrstianity and become Messianic … to get the blessings of the covenant you have to either be from Judah or Israel according to this pea brain…

    Another form of fundamentalism… rancid objectionable tripe

  142. Babylon's Dread says:

    Makes me want to form my own website for exposing theologicalporn

  143. Believe says: is one address…

  144. Michael says:


    I got an email from someone demanding that I read this book or be cast into the pit…are you going to do a review?

    I sure as hell ain’t buying it…

  145. Babylon's Dread says:

    Someone sent it to me in the mail telling me that the forerunner generation is heralding the end of the times of the gentiles to welcome in the parousia…. a review… what on earth … perhaps I should. But that might make someone read it and gullibility knows no end so…

  146. A E A says:

    Hasn’t the Apostle Paul already given a critique…several times?

    How do these guys ever get a following?

  147. Sarah says:

    Bob….I just emailed through his website, I think the address that Believe posted.

    Michael is right, a lot of times we figure that the person knows that their impact outweighs what is being portrayed….but in times like this they need to hear that as well. I simply told him about the time he took out to have breakfast with me in Albuquerque. I doubt he will remember who I am, but God used him.

    Praying that God covers these servants who are faithful in shadow of his wings. Praying that those who simply what to stir discord will lose their voice and in the silence find His grace and the freedom of being part of the Body.

  148. David says:

    Believe wrote: “David, don’t take it personally (easier said than done)…”

    I would never take it personally, since first of all, Jesus has never spoken to me that way in all my life 🙂 And Jesus also never told me to regard Michael as the final authority on doctrine 🙂

    I’ll go away now… cheering commence 🙂

  149. Believe says:

    A E A…because a lot of us lay-people are gullible…and when you’ve been hurt by the Church you know…it opens the door for the devil to sow seeds of doubt…and then wa la…a guy comes along telling you that the jerks you know have it all wrong…and it sounds Christ-centered and has a mysteriousness and antiquitous intrigue to it…

    …and next thing you know…you’re eating Kosher and following Torah. (didn’t go that far…but was intrigued when I was proselytized by a Messianic…enough to get some more info about it so I knew what it was).

  150. A E A says:

    Well time for me to go to bed.
    Maybe BD should send the book to David, he seems to think he is a …. well forget it.

    Blessing all,

  151. Michael says:

    I’m off as well…blessings!

  152. A E A says:

    Glad I read your post before closing.

    Coyotes go first for the wounded.

    Blessing bro

  153. Believe says:

    yes…good analogy.

    Blessings A E A.

  154. Gayle’s reputation will precede him. I would be surprised if there was much negative fall out. Prasch is just a knucklehead who no one knows anyway. Lighthouse Trails is bird cage liner stuff too.

    Knowing Gayle as well as I do I doubt he’s worried.

  155. Another Voice says:

    I understand the heart of one who would cry out for a Dave Rolph or whoever to step in.

    But in reality, isn’t this akin to the married couple on the verge of divorce asking the pastor to fix their marriage. The problem with their marriage isn’t the pastor, and the problem with the movement is not with the Dave Rolphs of the world.

    Of course, in the marital example there is the chance that there is ignorance of the ways of the Lord and the pastor could be of some help – though he will be no savior. Most of the time though, the solutions are obvious, but there is no willingness.

    But these are men who know the Word, know the commands to servanthood, humility, love of the brethren, and yet are CHOOSING to devote their Christian lives, at least in large part, to these pursuits.

    So what is Rolph or anyone else going to say to such a man?

  156. Sarah says:

    AV…I think this is where we genuinely have to turn our hearts to prayer.

    Such a cliche thing to say sometimes, or can be heard that way….I’m trying to learn better the power of our petitions. It’s a humbling thing to petition the Almighty.

    I’ve been thinking a lot today about this thread and about Kempner. I was thinking as I was driving about the reality that my sin today is viewed the same as Kempner’s. That is hard to get ahold of and to really grasp…at least for me. My arrogance, my callousness, my selfishness is just as much a hindrance to the Gospel in those I encounter as Kempner’s and gang.

    My fist-pounding and calling for grace can be just as arrogant as the ODM’s call for ‘purity’ or truth in doctrine.

    We are so complicated. I think that we want to see Rolph sweep in and save the day because, quite frankly, we are tired of waiting to see God work.

    Yet….He has extended patience and grace to me in my life, allowing the time for the Spirit to work.

    So…I’ve kind of come full-circle today. I want to see justice. I want to see those who slander teachers I respect come to a place of appreciating them as I do. I want to see Kempner repent.

    Maybe, it is because I want to know that when I get lost in my humanity there is hope that I will repent and that I will recognize my error.

    The complexities of how we grieve the Spirit, or how we deaden ourselves to the conviction of God in our lives is beyond my ability. Maybe what we come to in these discussions is the place, like Michael, of continuing to hope that we will see God move and see redemption and Gospel happen before us.

    Because if it happens there, it can happen in me. Maybe if I can bear witness to the work God has done in me the reverse holds true….that it can happen there. Maybe a little of the foolishness of the Gospel is continuing to cling to hope because we realize there aren’t any riders on white horses who can save the day….only a Savior.

  157. Eddie says:

    In my escape from the Jehovah’s Witnesses I learned a lot. Two main things:

    1. Always question those who focus primarily on secondary and tertiary issues. Disagreeing on non-essentials does not a heretic make.

    2. Require specific evidence when accusations are made. Hearsay and innuendo are not acceptable.

  158. Eddie says:

    To quote David: “Michael wrote: “That would be John 17…. that’s the only unity movement I care about.”

    You sound like a catholic man. The catholics always bring up that verse, when anyone questions whether something might be amiss. ”

    Since Michael already corrected your interpretive error on this, might I be so bold as to point out the logical fallacies in your response? You used an ad hominem abusive in the first sentence. Then, in the second, you altered what Michael clearly meant when referring to the passage (equivocation of meaning).

  159. Bryan Stupar says:

    AV, when I suggested someone like Dave Rolph step in, it was originally tongue in cheek.
    But the more I think of it, it’s important for someone to say “something”, to the broader CC movement. CC pastors are GREATLY influenced by those given the platform to speak. I’d not be surprised if Warren Smith still receives speaking engagements from his pastors conference debut several years ago.

    We need good leaders in the body who can lovingly engage deviant theological trends, while carefully operating upon & discerning essential doctrine from non-essential, like a “skilled, heart surgeon”. Many of these ODM’s & Bryson types act more like thugs & bullies on the playground with a scalpels in their hands and fog in their discernment, and they damage REAL people….God’s people…(and this MAKES ME MAD!)

    So, yes, we need discerning shepherds, who can skillfully correct false teaching, becasue it injures & wounds people.


    We need courageous shepherds who can correct thuggish behavior, becasue IT TOO, injures & wounds people.

    Perhaps, by addressing these thuggish ministries and the deeply damaging methods they employ, the stage of CC’s just may be reset for what Chuck originally forged the way for…”love”! Should there be silence, these angry people, who are given floor space, will rip CC’s apart.

  160. Bryan Stupar says:

    What Prasch’s statement, “Piper has always been a teacher of error anyway.”


    Charles Taze Russell’s, errant view on John 1:1

    have in common, is they’re both LIES.
    ALL Lies are sourced in and planted by the father of lies and ought to be lovingly exposed and not given fertile soil to grow. The crop, each aforementioned produces may be different, in size and negative effect…but in both cases, neither is good.

  161. Bryan Stupar says:

    I’m not suggesting Prasch & Russell are in the same league…there not!
    Prasch is a blood bought saint while Russell rejected the biblical Jesus.

  162. I agree with Stupar

  163. Bob Sweat says:

    I agree with Hopkins

  164. Erunner says:

    I agree with Sweat.

  165. centorian says:

    I agree with E

  166. Bob Sweat says:

    I agree with Centy

  167. BrianD says:

    I agree with Sweat, but what I don’t quite agree with E, though we’re all agreeing on the same thing? 🙂

  168. Nonnie says:

    I got on Gayle Erwin’s website today and got my socks blessed!! I have down-loaded one of his books and will begin listening tomorrow.
    Because God used a fictional book, The Shack, to minister to Gayle and he said so, he gets labeled a heretic. That is just plain sick.

    God bless Gayle, his wife and the ministry they have in reaching out in Jesus’ name and Jesus’ style…..Love and Truth.

  169. Bob Sweat says:

    Song for the day

  170. Bryan Stupar says:

    Noonie, you said, “Because God used a fictional book, The Shack, to minister to Gayle and he said so, he gets labeled a heretic. That is just plain sick.”

    This is what I talking about…it’s plain thuggish, unaccountable, militia style, character assassination, done in the name of “discerning truth”. Until, these guys (and gals) stop their flesh driven diatribes, they should not be welcomed in pulpits to preach.

    “Truth in love”, must be the criteria for usage of a platform, otherwise abuse will follow from both extremes of, “all love and no truth”, or “all truth and no love”. Both extremes will mislead, and may damn, whereas both held together in tension will edify the body and glorify Christ. Only those free to walk in the Spirit can accomplish this otherwise impossible task.

  171. Michael says:


    Perhaps they need to hear your voice…perhaps you are one who will set the future of your movement.

    Perhaps it’s time for some of you to speak without an invitation…

  172. Em says:

    you folks were fired up last night – good reading, clear-headed and spiritually sound IMO 😉

    re: #171 – those were the good old days 😆

  173. John says:

    I know I am dating myself, but I was saved by listening to the Costa Mesa Sunday evening study on KYMS. Would I have been so soundly saved (by listening to sound exposition of the Word), if I was treated to any of the following gobbledygook by Leonard Sweet. Why is this heretic being being allowed to speak at the conference in Albuquerque?

    There be Treasures #10. (1) Unitary thinking, the highest level of understanding reality, opens us up to a wider sensory realm and mystical dimension of the divine; it also heals the divisions that separate us from one another and life’s highest values. 2. Wholeness unites, not eliminates, opposites, bringing them into dynamic balance—the coming together of earth and water, air and fire, through the merger of the Antaean sensibility (Antaeus the hugger of the ground, from which came his strength) with the Herculean sensibility (Hercules the master of air and fire, who defeated Antaeus by lifting him off the ground.) 70 3. The discovery of the euphoric state of wholeness will prove to be the highest form of ecstasis. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 250)

    Spirituality refers first of all to the universal gift of aliveness that exists within all religions and outside of religions. It breathes out the air that “inspires.” Those who have been in-spired with aliveness by the kiss of God will “con-spire” to kiss others into coming alive to the spiritual dimensions of existence. “In-spire” means to breathe in. “Con-spire” means to breathe together. “Conspiracy” enters by the same door as “spirituality.” A world gagging on smog and smut needs a breath of fresh air. The New Light movement begins as a fresh air conspiracy of “aliveness.” But it is more than that. Spiritual consciousness can be something greater than aesthetics or aliveness. The Bible tells us that the human species has been twice kissed by the divine. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 253)

    As a cosmion incarnating the cells of a new body, New Lights will function as transitional vessels through which transforming energy can renew the divine image in the world, moving postmoderns from one state of embodiment to another. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 38)

    Postmodern culture is hungry for the intimacy of psychospiritual transformations. It wants a “reenchantment of nature.” It’s aware of its ecstasy deprivation. It wants to know God “by heart.” It wants to light an inner fire, the circulating force of divine energies flowing in and flowing out. The primal scream of postmodern spirituality is for primal experiences of God. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 56)

    Through the synergy of the divine-human exchange of energies, an unbelievable field of healing and transforming energy is rounded up and released in the universe. Humans are constructed out of mutually attracting energy particles with positive and negative charges. Negative or neutral charges too often dominate human contacts. Positive charges in the church are about as rare as “strange matter”–positively charged lumps of quarks know as “quarknuggets”–is in the quantum world. “Consciousness is catching,” psychologist/medical scholar/professor Frances E. Vaughan reminds us. Destructive, negative, constricting states of consciousness are caught as readily as creative, positive, expanding states of consciousness. All energy states are contagious. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 62)

    A surprisingly central feature of all the world’s religions is the language of light in communicating the divine and symbolizing the union of the human with the divine: Muhammed’s light-filled cave, Moses’ burning bush, Paul’s blinding light, Fox’s “inner light,” Krishna’s Lord of Light, Böhme’s light-filled cobbler shop, Plotinus’ fire experiences, Bodhisattvas with the flow of Kundalini’s fire erupting from their fontanelles, and so on.53 Light is the common thread that ties together near-death experiences as they occur in various cultures. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 146)

    LEONARD SWEET (Author of Quantum Spirituality and Emerging Church leader) Sweet calls this the Theory of Everything. This theory not only says that all creation is connected but that it is all inhabited with Divinity (God). (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, comment by Tim Wirth, Sweet got some of ideas and title of his book from Richard Hartnett, H.W., M. who is a nationally known Teacher and Psychic. His extensive training includes Sufism, Buddhism, Native American Spirituality, Jungian Symbology and Gurdjieff’s Fourth Way. You can read about his teaching on Quantum Spirituality at

    “So far the church has refused to dip its toe into postmodern culture. A quantum spirituality challenges the church to bear its past and to dare its future by sticking its big TOE into the time and place of the present…. Then, and only then, will the church not appear to be in a timecapsule, sealed against new developments. Then, and only then, will a New Light movement of ‘world-making’ faith have helped to create the world that is to, and may yet, be. Then, and only then, will earthlings have uncovered the meaning of these words, some of the last words poet/activist/contemplative/bridge between East and West Thomas Merton uttered: “We are already one. But we imagine that we are not. And what we have to recover is our original unity.” (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 10)

    Quoted by Sweet in Quantum Spirituality: Rabbi/theologian/storyteller Lawrence Kushner makes an intriguing contrast between the Jewish and Christian traditions precisely at this point in The River of Light Spirituality; Judaism, and the Evolution of Consciousness (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1981). For Christianity, the central problem is how God could have become person. How spirit could transform itself into matter. Word become flesh. Consciousness become protoplasm. The direction is from the top down. For Judaism, on the other hand, the problem is how humanity could possibly attain to God’s word and intention. How matter could raise itself to spirit. How simple desert souls could hear the word. Human substance attain consciousness. The intention is “to permeate matter and raise it to spirit.” The direction is from the bottom up. Perhaps the two traditions, one moving down, the other moving up, are destined to meet in the divinity of humanity. (82) (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 191)

    God has already given to the church, in all its diversity, a complete Theory of Everything, a unifying principle that binds things together. The church’s big TOE was formulated in the Bible’s smallest encapsulation of What It All Means: John 1:14. The Fourth Gospel elaborates the exchange as it extends an invitation to the quest and quandary of the quantum explored in this book.
    The Word [the depth dimension of Logos which physicists call energy,
    ancients called fire and theologians call metanoi] …
    became Flesh [the height dimension of Pathos which physicists call matter,
    ancients called land and theologians call koinonia]…
    and dwelt among us [the breadth dimension of Ethos which physicists call
    space, ancients called wind and theologians call diakonia] …
    and we beheld his [God’s] glory [the fourth dimension of Theos which
    physicists call space-time, ancients called sea and theologians call basileia].
    This tetrad is the church’s big TOE, the closest the Bible ever comes to formulating a simple, compact description of how the universe works (i.e., a Grand Unified Theory). John 1:14 presents four eddies of experiencing God, comprising a single stream. All four dimensions–the experience of God in Christ and self, the experience of God in community and creation, the experience of God in social justice and compassion, the experience of God in the transpersonal and transcendent–while distinct, are interacting states rather than chronological or sequential stages. They demonstrate a remarkable unity, interpenetrating and mutually reinforcing one another 10. . . as in life, so in the rather artificial partitions of this book.38 (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 9)

    God claims everything one is. God claims every rationality. God claims every sensibility. Quantum spirituality is more than a structure of the intellect; it is more than a structure of emotion; it is more than a structure of human being. It is most importantly a structure of human becoming, a channeling of Christ energies through mindbody experience.28 (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 53)
    “CHANGE OR BE CHANGED — In the old ecology of nature, change was seen as abnormal. In the new ecology of nature, change is life’s natural, normative state…. What works today won’t work tomorrow…. The wonder is that churches are not in more disarray. … They are standing pat, opting to uphold the status quo rather than undergo the upheaval.” … “Postmodern culture is a change-or-be-changed world. The word is out: Reinvent yourself for the 21st century or die.” (Leonard Sweet, Soul Tsunami: Sink or Swim in the New Millennium Culture (Zondervan, 1999), p. 74-75)
    “According to the Oxford English Dictionary, to inform means ‘to give form to, put into form and shape.’ The purpose of the church is to give form to, to put into form and shape, the energymatter known as Jesus Christ. New Light leaders, therefore, are in-formational connectors helping the body of Christ to become an in-formed church, an in-formational community.” … “New Light leadership helps patches of information become cloaks of knowledge. Information brokering is central to creating community in postmodern culture, not to mention achieving synergic states of group consciousness. Association of Theological Schools president/divinity school dean Jim L. Waits, in his address at the seventy-fifth anniversary of the founding of Emory University’s Candler School of Theology, calls for clergy to move from their ‘learned ministry’ model to a ‘“knowledgeable ministry’ model. ‘Knowledge ministry’ helps information become ‘alive in the consciousness,’ as Einstein put it….” (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p. 120-121)
    “Christbody communities must come to be seen as thermodynamic units in which the rules of the conservation and degradation of energy apply. Some preachers almost unwittingly do an energy analysis of a congregation, assessing the energy charge of a room, pinpointing the energy flow, and drawing strength from those hot spots from which energy emanates most powerfully….”Reluctance to see communities of faith as information-processing systems and the refusal to assist people in exploring and critiquing the unexamined metaphors by which they live helps explain why oldline communities are in such a state of entropic decline and disarray. Yet entropies of information produce variety within a species as well as new species themselves. The second law of thermodynamics states that energymatter decomposes and, what is more, that the more entropy grows, the less the amount of usable energy. Since the total amount of energy and mass in the universe cannot change, the entropic consequence of the second law is known as evolution. … “A major New Light undertaking is the designing of newstream communities that can be ‘in connection’ and ‘in-formation’ with the spirit of Christ. Christ will be embodied for the postmodern church in information.” (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p. 121)
    The following are five gross premises of embodiment… that build anew the body of Christ for the postmodern era — being “in connection” and “in-formation” with: (1) other Christians, (2) all creation, (3) one’s ancestors and ancestral memories, (4) other faiths, (5) technology…. ([1] “With Other Christians:) The first of these five untheorized observations is that New Light embodiment means to be “in connection” and “in-formation” with other Christians…. The church is fundamentally one being, one person, a communion whose cells are connected to one another within the information network called the Christ consciousness. No congregation or denomination can go it alone in being the body of Christ…. To be “in connection” and “in-formation” is to be related to other Christians and the shared culture of all Christians and to grow a set of organic relationships and coalitions around a common love for God “Communities have souls, not just individuals. The modern era downplayed a biblical doctrine of salvation that had this communal dimension. In contrast, the New Light movement is concerned about the salvation of ensouled communities as well as individual souls, and the salvation of community souls relating synergistically to one another. … The power of community is the energy of between: The synergizing of synergies in which “one [shall] chase a thousand, and two [shall] put ten thousand to flight” (Deut. 32:30)…. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p. 122)
    “Pantheism is ‘the belief or theory that God and the universe are identical’ panentheism is ‘the belief that the Being of God includes and penetrates the whole universe, so that every part of it exists in Him, but… that His Being is more than, and is not exhausted by, the Universe.” …”New Light spirituality does more than settle for the created order, as many forms of New Age pantheism do. But a spirituality that is not in some way entheistic (whether pan- or trans-), that does not extend to the spirit-matter of the cosmos, is not Christian.” (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p. 123-124)
    “Fourth, New Light embodiment means to be ‘in connection’ and ‘information’ with other faiths. To be in-formation means to know each other’s songs almost as well as one knows them oneself, and to enlarge the community to include those whose conceptions of God differ from ours in form. To be in connection means to be able to sing, not only selected stanzas, but all the verses” … “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying the flickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, or Krishna. A globalization of evangelism ‘in connection’ with others, and a globally ‘in-formed’ gospel, is capable of talking across the fence with Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Muslim–people from other so called ‘new’ religious traditions (‘new’ only to us)–without assumption of superiority and power.”(Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p. 129-130)
    The power of small groups is in their ability to develop the discipline to get people “in-phase” with the Christ consciousness and connected with one another. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, P. 147) … New Lights offer up themselves as the cosmions of a mind-of-Christ consciousness. As a cosmion incarnating the cells of a new body, New Lights will function as transitional vessels through which transforming energy can renew the divine.
    Leonard Sweet in his book Soul Tsunami: Sink or Swim in New Millennium Culture says: “Postmoderns want a God they can feel, taste, touch, hear and smell–a full sensory immersion in the divine.”

    “1. Get in touch with your lungs by closing your eyes. Visualize in your mind a tennis court” 8.“Hold your Bible and breathe meditatively. The breathtaking, nay, breathgiving truth of aliveness is more than Methuselean in its span: Part of your body right now was once actually, literally part of the body of Abraham, Sarah, Noah, Esther, David, Abigail, Moses, Ruth, Matthew, Mary, Like, Martha, John, Priscilla, Paul… and Jesus. 9. Keep breathing quietly while holding your Bible. You have within you not just the powers of goodness resident in the great spiritual leaders like Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, Lao Tzu You also have within you the forces of evil and destruction.” Resident in each breath you take is the body of angels like Joan of Arc and devils like Gilles de Rais, Genghis Khan, Judas Iscariot, Herod, Hitler, Stalin and all the other destructive spirits throughout history” (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p.300-301)

    “In the words of one of the greatest theologians of the twentieth century, Jesuit philosopher of religion/dogmatist Karl Rahner, “The Christian of tomorrow will be a mystic, one who has experienced something, or he will be nothing”(Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p.76)
    “Austrian/American physicist Wolfgang Pauli perceived, are the traceable connections that exist between ourselves and others or objects, and the underlying holism of the uni-verse. Transcendent state of consciousness” (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p.234)
    “If the church is to become a synergic space, it must first be Christianized. It must meet the ABCDE involutions of the “X Factor.” The ABCDE rule for synergic Christbody inter-connections and in-formation is as follows: Alterity, Bonding, Critical Mass, Dirt, Euphonics. The ABCDE involutions, when placed in a biblical framework, represent evolutionary steps to higher spirituality and the ecclesiastics of synergy”. The church must provide postmoderns with an alterity of rituals by which they can turn and tune to one another and feel connected to the cosmos. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p. 137).

    “Mysticism begins in experience; it ends in theology”(Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, p.76).

    DAVID SPANGLER (New Ager quoted by Leonard Sweet)
    David Spangler who Sweet favorably quotes also speaks of Lucifer as: “The true light of this great being can only be recognized when one’s own eyes can see with the light of the Christ, the light of the inner sun. Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into the New Age, which is the age of man’s wholeness, each of us is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation, the particular doorway through which the individual must pass if he is to come fully into the presence of his light and his wholeness. Lucifer comes to give us the final gift of wholeness. If we accept it, then he is free and we are free, that is the Luciferic Initiation. It is one that many people now, and in the days ahead, will be facing, for it is an initiation into the New Age. (David Spangler (quoted by Leonard Sweet), Reflections on the Christ, Findhorn Lecture Series, 3rd ed., 1981; p. 45)

  174. Michael says:

    I just finished Sweets new book about Jesus and it’s not only not heretical it exalts Christ as few books I’ve ever read.

  175. Em says:

    John, i haven’t yet read the gobbledegook-so-called posted in your above comment, but the answer to would you have been saved by it? probably not!
    it takes the “foolishness of preaching” to save some of us (myself included) – but i am convinced of the Church’s need for scholars and scholarship in the handling of our rich, rich history – and for the need of serious systematic theological handling of the depths of the Word of God – only some can do that and they are our teachers – most of us are fed by pastors of flocks and they are the ones charged with giving us a proper diet – still, we can’t follow them mindlessly; our responsibility is to discern and learn and grow in the nurture and admonition of the Lord … IMO

  176. Shilo says:

    Ignore Ignorance

  177. Em says:

    “Postmodern culture is hungry for the intimacy of psychospiritual transformations. It wants a “reenchantment of nature.” It’s aware of its ecstasy deprivation. It wants to know God “by heart.” It wants to light an inner fire, the circulating force of divine energies flowing in and flowing out. The primal scream of postmodern spirituality is for primal experiences of God. (Leonard Sweet, Quantum Spirituality, pg. 56)”
    hmmm – i think i see that today … in the latter half of the 20th century that took folk into Jung and LSD, so our culture is in mortal danger today… they need us to be of sound mind and not too polite, i think … in defending the Faith, that is…

  178. Believe says:

    Stupar is making a lot of sense.

    Words have meaning…rhetoric influences.

    I believe we need strong leaders within the CC movement to continue to exercise their God-given authority to correct error…in a manner that is contending for the Faith and not contentious…Stupar’s example above, IMO, is a very good one….FWIW.

  179. Bryan Stupar says:

    John, what you posted, is not helpful…I’m just sayin 😉
    It’s as useful as feeding your kids breakfast, by regurgitating last nights meal from hometown buffet.

    There are far better ways to engage people, to disseminate truth and warn of dangers, then the above example.


  180. Michael says:


    That’s an amazing analogy… 🙂

  181. Another Voice says:

    Hi Bryan,

    First – I wasn’t calling you out, so forgive me brother if it came off that way.

    My point was more directed at the idea of someone like Rolph taking him aside and speaking to Bryson, or any of these other guys. Sarah had a great post above. To me it is like evangelism, where you get to that point of frustration thinking ‘Can’t you see how obviously you are wrong?!’ – Of course, we realize the only answer is prayer – because God has to show them. I don’t imply these men need salvation, but the issue is similar in that God will have to open their eyes and humble them.

    HOWEVER – I am in full agreement with what you wrote above, in that the MOVEMENT needs pastors (like Rolph) to shout loudly at the conferences and pastoral gatherings. To Dave’s credit, he did that at last year’s SPC.

    I will continue to declare it to my congregation on a regular basis, but the big gun pastors wouldn’t give me the time of day now. All I would do is likely get myself kicked out of the movement – and I think I can do more from within than without. It may not always be that way, but that is my view as of today.

  182. Bryan Stupar says:

    no offense taken, whatsoever! 🙂

  183. Em says:

    don’t know about the regurgitation thing, because i don’t think John ever digested what he posted from Sweet et al

    it seems, dunno, that what Sweet is writing about addresses a mind-set, world view, cosmic view??? that wasn’t prevelant, if even on the scene, in “my day.” i am content to see what i can glean here, tho … from the PP theologians and pastors in residence 🙂

  184. Bryan Stupar says:

    Dave Rolph, did do that last year, and it was excellent! Greg Laurie to his credit has done similar to. Yet, the more specific these ODM’s spread toxin, the more specific the antidote must be.

    BTW, have we met before in person or Facebook? If not nice meeting you!
    Where are you from? (you can email me if you don’t wanna blow your cover)

  185. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Bryan, Gross! and very vivid. That summed it up very tightly.

  186. Bryan Stupar says:

    Em, alright,
    how bout, “spiritual bing & purge”…where it doesn’t quite go all the way dow_…(I’ll stop) 😉

  187. Isaiah56:1 says:

    I was referring to your 10:07 breakfast analogy. It was gross, but good.

  188. Bryan Stupar says:

    “binge”, not “bing” (that’s a search engine by a company lessor than Apple)

  189. centorian says:

    I want to be careful in my wording here. No doubt it is desirable for us all to come to the unity of the faith; a hopeful vision within the same movement/denomination/coalition/cohort/fellowship/ network/diocese/etc…. and ideally within the whole of the body of Christ. Church history has proved this to be elusive at best and impossible at worse. I do not think it is possible anymore with most.

    There has always been heresy in the church and always will be. Heresy begins with people placing greater emphasis on particular tenants of doctrine at the expense of others. There are definitely those whom I cannot associate with, both personalities and movements. They are problematic to say the least and wisdom tells me to avoid instead of embracing. It difficult to see a line in the sand with all this hot air blowing.

    The viewpoint of perception is now looked through the lens of end time apostasy and that lens is now employed in viewing the actions and associations within the church I wonder whether we are now seeing the days of “look! he’s in the wilderness”, “look! He’s in the inner rooms”. Where ever the carcass is there the vultures will gather. (Matthew 24:23-28) . There are many vultures in our skies.

    Disagreement can lead to healthy exchange or destructive debate. Is does need to be recognized that two cannot walk together unless they agree. Unfortunately too often we either accept the whole of one’s message or none of it. We look for areas to divide and we see our own theology as the pinnacle of correctness and evaluate all others from that vantage point. Those who have not reached the summit of our convictions are considered ignorant, arrogant, uninformed, spiritually immature, a tool of Satan, an apostate, one who was never of the faith. The list of disclaimers will no doubt grow. We will no longer be people that has the love of God shed abroad in our hearts but people who cleave at all cost to our truths, whether they are in fact truth or not.

  190. Michael says:


    Wow…that was good.

    Your definition of heresy is right on as well…

  191. brian says:

    two side issues, first this Dr. Caner issue really makes me scratch my head, I dont get it what so ever. He has a shtick and he uses it, that is expected, nope required in the modern church, I dont think he plays it up enough myself. You should Hyper Hype your hype so you can stay in the game. Now of course this causes other issues such as ethics and integrity which are irrelevant at best. The second is about the porn at work in sec and crosstalk american said there is restoration available for people stuck in that life, nope, please stop saying that, it is not true.

  192. Goose says:

    Whether right or wrong, I have never forgotten the following quote from Pastor Adrian Rogers…

    “It is better to be divided by truth than united in error”

    The unity we are to be most concerned with is unity between ourselves and Jesus Christ…if we don’t have that unity locked up then frankly it doesn’t matter what kind of unity we have with others!

  193. kelly schreiman says:

    in response to the article above. I think that Brian Broderson is one of the people behind this EC doctrine creeping into Calvary Chapel.

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