TGIF

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  1. Shaun Sells says:

    The first shall be the last.

  2. Michael says:

    Scriptural references used in this article:
    1 John 5:4-5, Rev 2:7,11,17,26, Rev 3:5, 12, 21, Rev 21:7 ,Psalm 9:12, Romans 8:28, Gen 50 Rev 7:17, Rev 21:4

  3. brian says:

    speaking of moving on, I am trying so hard to do that. I am broken by all the negative rhetoric I blabber on and on about. What did it for me was going to Catholic mass. Though I would, no could never ever become a Catholic it truly broke something in me. I had spent hours in so many different denominations that I could not even listen to one more sermon. No offense to the Churches. I think I needed to “see it” so to speak. Masses are good at the “seeing it”. What broke me even more was watching the persession of Lourdes. Just hundreds and thousands of people pouring out worship with no agenda other then pouring out worship.

    I dont really believe the story, but I dont buy about 99 % of the stories either protestant or catholic, that is part of my problem. But it moved me, deeply, it has been ages sense I have been moved by anything.

  4. deadmanwalking says:

    I love it Michael — I think you probably noticed over the years that one thing that always would put me in a fighting mood was when someone tells a wounded one to “move on” it is just an insult and insensitive and wrong. Thank you for addressing it with wisdom. I would get so mad that there were times I has to shut down my computer of regret what I would say. It was often said by otherwise loving men, but non the less, it was a phrase that I heard often enough back in the early seventies that each time I hear it, it is like getting wounded all over again, because the people who used it on me were the very ones who wounded me.

    I once saw one of the ones who wounded me at a conference, and I decided it was time to make peace with him if I cold so I went up and introduced myself and told him that I was one of the people wounded by his ministry, he actually said “so what’ that to me and he just gave me a cold stare and said and you have a personal problem if you still haven’t moved on! and turned his back to me and walked away. He didn’t know how close he was to being seriously wounded at that moment, and I don’t mean spiritual wounds. It took all I had in me to not knock his head off. I grew up in a place where I had to learn 1) to run fast, 2) if I couldn’t run I could hurt someone really bad. This little guy actually turned his back on a guy who is 6’4” and at the time 240 — I almost took him out.

    So it means a lot to me that you have addressed this. And you did it with wisdom.

    thank you
    john duncan
    Deadmanmovingforward

  5. deadmanwalking says:

    brian — while I couldn’t believe what I was saying at the time, I just told someone that they should attend a liturgical fellowship. I recommended Lutheran. But I think for some who have been wounded in typical churches, just like you said, to go somewhere that is totally predictable and highly visible and puts the pastor?teacher off to the side leaving center stage for Jesus alone. While I could never join a High Church, I think for some it might be the only refuge where they can worship with the Body and feel safe.

    🙂 † (-:
    if that came through it is my symbol for smiling Christian fellowship
    john

  6. deadmanwalking says:

    let me try that again
    :-)†:-)

  7. deadmanwalking says:

    one more time 🙂 † 🙂

  8. Sarah says:

    Amen, Michael. Great word.

  9. deadmanwalking says:

    A little more background – when I was kicked out of Shiloh, and the ‘marked” you, no one was allowed to even talk to you. I was a thousand miles from home when they kicked me out, The local police had told me not to leave town due to an incident that I was totally innocent of the charges, but after they arrested me, they released me and told me not to leave town. When I went back to the commune, I was taken aside and told I was a cancer to the body of Christ and “marked” and kicked out. I was alone, my only friend was in the local jail, I had no one to talk to, no where to go, I was sleeping in the park, until I finally hitched hiked out of town and backslid all the way back to my old life in So Cal. I was only 1 year old in the Lord, and believed them when they told me there was no way back to God for me, that I was eternally lost.

    When many years later I see one of the guys from that ministry and tried to make peace with him, He just turned his back to me and he is still a CC pastor like many who were part of the leadership of Shiloh. Shiloh was a branch of CC. So to me it was all one and the same thing. Yet God in time healed me enough not only to walk back into a CC, but to become a pastor in CC, and to get bold enough to get kicked out a couple of more times. In the end I stayed after the last time I was kicked out, and asked back, just to be a voice for sanity in a time of total insanity, and in part just to show those who wanted me out, that I would not leave the movement to them. I stayed to make a statement.

    I moved forward I stayed and fought for something I still believe is one of the best things going. O how I long to see them face their short comings and move forward and not just turn their back on all the wrong that has happened
    john duncan

  10. Bob Sweat says:

    Not fair! Michael, you posted TGIF on Thursday! 🙂

    I see you were up late last night as well. I went to bed upset over the end of the evening discussion on the Kempner thread.

    Your words fro today, even though written last night :wink:, are true. I was particularly drawn to your words, “We are moving forward knowing that He may not reveal that purpose in our lifetimes”. That is difficult for me even though I believe it to be true. Like so many, I want to be able to see justice take place. But what makes it more difficult for me are the continued excuses (and that’s exactly what they are) that some give for the lack of integrity.

    I stand with you as we move forward, but in that forward progression we will continue to “cling to that which is good, and abhor that which is evil”.

  11. Believe says:

    Michael…I’m understanding. Never could get my mind around the Move On…as it is impossible…I am understanding and seeing the wisdom in the Moving Forward.

    If you can Move Forward from all you have in your life…that gives me hope. I can, too, with God’s help.

    Bless you for your example…and thank you for sticking with me and not sending me on my way.

  12. Erunner says:

    DMW, To this day when I read certain things I am amazed to the point of anger. When you speak about confronting a man at a conference about something so personal and the best he can do is act like a self absorbed movie star I want to go look him up…

    I can’t help but think of the fellowship of believers he ended up returning to. Can a man like the one who did that to you have any real love for those he is supposed to be serving? I don’t see it. I might have exploded.

    I’ve heard messages from the SPC’s and one I recall is Pastor Chuck sharing that there were some who attended the year before but were not there that year because of sexual sin and them no longer being a pastor. What I heard was a man who was grieved over the failures of others.

    I wonder how many men who were sexually pure walked away thinking they were as right as rain even though they may have had the mindset of the man who blew you off? When Arthur Blessitt fell so many years ago I learned not to put any man on a pedestal knowing I would be setting myself up for disappointment.

  13. Tim says:

    Excellent article, Michael.

    May I add?

    We move forward in faith, knowing that while we might be ignorant of some of the details, our Lord and Savior is not. He knows every name involved, and the full ramifications that will come. Our loving God is in control, and when we may be confused, God never is. The Judge of all the earth will always do what is right.

  14. Bob Sweat says:

    DMW

    Just read your earlier posts. I want to thank you for showing us how to “move forward”. God bless you John! Hope to see you at Efest again.

  15. Believe says:

    DMW…yes, thank you also for showing practical ways to Move Forward….and for all the other times you’ve shared your pastor’s heart.

  16. Michael says:

    I need to add one more…

    I move forward understanding that it’s only by the grace of God that I haven’t done as bad or worse as those who have wounded me.

    My own capacity for sin and disgrace is boundless…

  17. Erunner says:

    Bob, You accurately noted that Michael has misrepresented the truth by misleading us into thinking this article was written today! Let’s see where this revelation leads.

    Faithful witness- “Michael, you have uttered an untruth.”

    Michael- “Well I guess if you want to get technical about it.”

    Faithful witness- “And we know what an untruth is don’t we Michael?”

    Michael- “You know I posted the article a few minutes before it was Friday so what’s the big deal?”

    Faithful witness- “You already confessed the untruth you would have us believe didn’t you?”

    Michael- “Okay!!! But understand I’m about to go imprectatory on you.”

    Faithful witness- “Let’s stay on topic Michael, your soul hangs in the balance.”

    Michael- “What the &^*^%*!!”

    Faithful witness- “Now we know an untruth is a lie don’t we?”

    Michael- Hands shaking. “I need to call Stipe.”

    Faithful witness- “So Michael, if you tell a lie what does that make you?”

    Michael- “I can’t believe this!”

    Faithful witness- “What does that make you Michael?”

    Michael- “Why don’t you tell me?”

    Faithful witness- “You have already told me Michael but I need you to see yourself for what you really are. So will you answer the question?”

    Michael- Pursing lips. “No.”

    Faithful witness- “Well Michael by the testimony of your own lips you are a liar!”

    Michael- “Just give me a fake million dollar bill and we’ll be done with this.”

    Faithful witness- “Michael. Do you know where liars go when they die?”

    Michael- Forehead veins bulging. “They go to hell!!!”

    Faithful witness: “Very good Michael. We can skip the other nine commandments as you now see your need for a Savior.”

    A big foot crushes faithful witness.

    Michael- ” I guess there really is a CCOF…..”

    With friends like Bob who needs enemies?? :mrgreen:

  18. Michael says:

    It was Friday in some places… 😉

  19. Bob Sweat says:

    “E”

    You really need to “move on”. 😉

    Any news of Efest?

  20. Bob Sweat says:

    On Efest

  21. Erunner says:

    Bob, I lost the information again when the .com went down. I’m going to recreate the list and hopefully have something for early next week. Right now June 5th is on the table. I also am hoping someone can contact Shannon as she expressed interest. I’ll try and reach others through Facebook.

  22. Jerry F says:

    After some time in theropy I was being lead by a skilled fellow who knew how to get me to realize my own position and what to do to get my self moving on. It’s easy for us to say to someone in emotinal trouble, “move on” because it releases us from any responsability to actually help that person get to a place of understanding of their root problem. As is in AA you have to recognize that you need help. Otherwise, you never think you actually do. And, getting any help at all is something you are doing for someone else’s sake. “My wife will feel beter because I’m doing this and she’ll get off my back.” etc. I think GOD treats us in a very similar manner most times. Going through the worst of times has the effect of tempering steel in the fire. I knew Arthur back in the ’80’s. And, haven’t really been in touch with him since then. But lately, I have been presented with information about him (and here again) that says to me, past anything off-base that he’s done in the past, that he tried to move past his failures on to the mission he was called to perform. Don’t we all do that to some extent more or less? Isn’t this what the “walk” is all about? There was a song that was popular a few years back that said, “We fall down, we get up.” It is only by His gentle, guiding hand that we recognize the problems in our lives…and move on.

  23. Bob Sweat says:

    June 5th sounds good. I’m trying to get my wife to come with me.

  24. deadmanwalking says:

    I do need to ad that the guys who turned his back on me, that his wife overheard me approach him in all humility as I made an attempt to make peace with him, and she apologized for him. I must say in the CC movement that it’s the pastor’s wives that are the glue that keep the whole thing together.

    As far as that brother’s current church, I have not heard of any problems. You need to remember how young we all were, and how long ago this took place. It was I believe 1973 when this happened. So he is just an old wrinkled pastor now. When I approached him in was in 1980. So this is old old history. But I just thought some of you might understand my passion about being wounded by spiritual authority. In my case, I didn’t just loose a few friends, I was Marked and not one person would even say hi to me, and I lost a place to live and had no money or food, and the police wouldn’t let me leave town. That was a pretty hard hitting combination of things all at once. To be under suspicion for a crime I didn’t commit, to be told I was eternally damned, to be kicked out of where I lived, to be cut off from everyone I knew — Yes I was wounded, and wounded deep.

    After a week, I went into the police and told them I was leaving town, they could either let me go, or arrest me and feed me, they let me leave town, or at least they didn’t try to stop me when i walked out.

    Then years later being willing to offer an olive branch and being shunned again — well you can imagine how you would feel.

    Somehow his wife made things a lot better. At least she affirmed that there was a problem.

  25. centorian says:

    had to bring up Shiloh…….. a place of abundant fruit, and much of it bad….. a testimony to God’s grace and love in spite of.

    someone cue up Neil Diamond for me

    and dmw…. it could have been worse, had you not been kicked out, you may have become just like them. I am thankful that I was painfully severed from those who abuse the body of Christ.

  26. Michael says:

    Px2,

    Your comment about the tears as intercession is very profound and I believe it is truth.

    I’m hanging on to that truth as we move forward carrying those affected in our hearts.

  27. Another Voice says:

    Two weeks ago, despite giving a message about the resurrection, I was gently corrected by a ‘loving brother’ for using the word Easter instead of ‘Resurrection Sunday’. I used Easter once in the Hello, once in the Good-Bye, and once in the ‘what we celebrate this Easter’ context.

    If I use the words Christianity and religion within five minutes of each other I can guarantee I will be dutifully reminded that ‘Christianity isn’t a religion, it is a relationship’

    If we recognize that most of the world would see ‘moving on’ and ‘moving forward’ as basic equivalents (and you can Google quotes for both to prove this) – I hope DMW’s major point here is not lost by a narrow focus on the word choice, as if they are part of a magic formula.

    Personally, I see tremendous value and wisdom in this small change of word choice, and will consciously incorporate it into my ministry. I am always looking out for any means to enable me to communicate more effectively.

    It is priceless in internet counseling (which I personally don’t really do though) because words are all we have.

    The fear I have is that guys embrace the distinction and miss the whole point – that some pastor, with arms crossed, looking at the clock, expressing impatience will be sitting across from someone who is hurting, pouring out their soul, and think that he is being sensitive because he remembers to say ‘move forward’ instead of ‘move on’ That seems to be the CC way often from my experience – make sure the lingo is right as if that is the main thing above actually sharing the love and compassion of Christ to another.

    Put another way, if I invest all the time you need to really hear you, look you in the eyes, express with my body language the love and care I have for you in my heart, a loving hand on your shoulder as we pray together – then I’m not going to kick myself afterwards if I realize I said “on” and not “forward”

    The thing is, none of that is possible online – words are all we have.

  28. Michael says:

    Shiloh would make a fascinating subject for a book…

  29. Shaun Sells says:

    Dare I ask – but what is Shiloh?

  30. Michael says:

    AV,

    Excellent point… well said.

  31. Michael says:

    Shaun,

    I’ll wait a couple minutes for one of the vets to answer that…

  32. Shaun Sells says:

    If you guys would rather, you can just email it to me. I don’t want to stir a hornets nest:

    shaunsells@bresnan.net

  33. deadmanwalking says:

    The problem with Shiloh is they changed every three months. You would have to write about 10 books. One month it was “the Joy of the Lord is our Strength: and if you were not smiling people would ask if you were “in the Word and doing your devotions” then it would be “redeem the time brothers for the days are evil, then if you smiled you got in trouble —

    So which Shiloh to write a book on– I know for many people you could tell which years they were there by how they feel about it. I happened to be there for one of the worse times

  34. filbertz says:

    shi_loh_

    tdfil-in-the-blanks

  35. Michael says:

    Higgins, Kempner, Bryson, Bond, Grenier, and Ortize are all former residents…

  36. Michael says:

    DMW,

    It is interesting how many different perspectives I’ve heard on the subject…

  37. centorian says:

    Pastor, pastor…..lol!!!! I know you’ve got some stories…… I have enough of my own, even though God gave me the good sense not to involve myself.

    I knew some of the no-names of Shiloh that got stomped or went off the reservation. Or they came back rebuking everyone in sight. DMW is correct about the bi-polar moods swings. Essentially, the problem was people were leading when they should have been learning.

    fil,
    lol !!!!! your buddy down there was a part of them, too.

  38. filbertz says:

    centy,
    that explains some things. glad I got out(ed) when I did.

  39. Bob says:

    AV said:

    “Two weeks ago, despite giving a message about the resurrection, I was gently corrected by a ‘loving brother’ for using the word Easter instead of ‘Resurrection Sunday’. I used Easter once in the Hello, once in the Good-Bye, and once in the ‘what we celebrate this Easter’ context.”

    The sad part it really is “Easter” because of the influence of Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, who that made the change from after Passover. In short, he felt that the Jews and the other heretics at the time should have no control over the date the church celebrated the Resurrection. So He, having a lot of influence at the time, strongly suggested they stick to the same Lunar date and that it could not coincide with Passover.

    But for the most part all of this church history has been lost in our current generation. They just see it as a “family” time to gather colorful eggs and eat chocolate bunny ears.

    Personally I like the idea of the First day of the week being a celebration.

  40. Jerry F says:

    Does anyone remember the name of the big house in Santa Ana where a lot of the early Maranatha! Music dudes and gals used to live? It was kinda a commune situation. Just wonderin’. The old mind, ya know.

  41. filbertz says:

    Jerry F

    Prison? 😉

  42. paigemom says:

    Great points Michael….yes, move forward in all the ways mentioned, including the addendum, with faith in a faithful and merciful God. amen.

    The trite christian platitudes and cold-hearted “move ons” that seem to flow from ignorant and superficial lips of those who know little of suffering, cause more harm. .

    The comments about JK remind me of AG and the many fruitless confrontations. :-
    The apparent lack of intervention by God (apparent) in this life is confusing at times.

    God is faithful. Romans 8:28 happens one way or another. Disaster does happen in this life. Injustice too. I believe the scriptures refer to it as “the day of trouble”, and we all have them, some way more than others.

    I have been contemplating Hebrews 11. What a contrast it is to the so called “Faith” of so much ‘teaching’ today. Those heroes of our faith suffered big time, many died for their faith, and may died without receiving the promise. I’m such a wimp. 🙂

  43. deadmanwalking says:

    Check these out if you want a Shiloh flashback

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvcuGvFkeiE

  44. deadmanwalking says:

    Check this out if you just want a good laugh

  45. Sister Christian says:

    “We are going to move forward in faith, never forgetting the sin, never forgetting the victims…but moving forward believing as we go that God has not forgotten either.

    We are moving forward believing that God uses all things for our good and His glory, even the sins of wicked men.

    We are moving forward believing that our good Father never wastes our tears and that there is always a holy purpose in our pain.

    We are moving forward knowing that He may not reveal that purpose in our lifetimes.

    We are moving forward with absolute faith in the sovereignty, holiness, righteousness and love of our God.

    We are not moving on, we are moving forward in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    That’s my mission, that our commission, that’s where we will find our purpose and our hope.”

    Most excellent words Michael…
    moving forward in the power of the Holy Spirit
    finding purpose and hope

  46. Believe says:

    Shiloh, wow. So many memories.

  47. Believe says:

    Michael said, “I move forward understanding that it’s only by the grace of God that I haven’t done as bad or worse as those who have wounded me.
    My own capacity for sin and disgrace is boundless…”

    Yes, that is a tremendous point…one I am daily focused on and reminded of every day I wake up to my beautiful wife and kids and realize they’re still with me by the Grace and Mercy of God…which helps me stay in attack mode against my own sin (the ones I am aware of).

    Beginning to see (as I come back to a more centered position…and receive input from many of you and others…and I’ve gone back and forth a lot on this one…as you well know) that the anger I’ve had and have about the hurts and injustices can be very sinful.

  48. Sister Christian says:

    “The fear I have is that guys embrace the distinction and miss the whole point – that some pastor, with arms crossed, looking at the clock, expressing impatience will be sitting across from someone who is hurting, pouring out their soul, and think that he is being sensitive because he remembers to say ‘move forward’ instead of ‘move on’ That seems to be the CC way often from my experience – make sure the lingo is right as if that is the main thing above actually sharing the love and compassion of Christ to another.

    Put another way, if I invest all the time you need to really hear you, look you in the eyes, express with my body language the love and care I have for you in my heart, a loving hand on your shoulder as we pray together – then I’m not going to kick myself afterwards if I realize I said “on” and not “forward”.

    AV,
    a very important observation for sure.
    Its a sad fact that some will use the “right words” as the main point… and miss the whole point altogether.

    Whats important however is that you have addressed the issue…

    while also addressing the greater good that can be accomplished, is being accomplished
    by those who invest the time to really hear a wounded ones heart, perspective and story,
    and show true concern, care and compassion for their souls,,,
    it in all likelihood it will not matter if one uses “move on” instead of “move forward”

    What matters is when one patiently takes the time to thoughtfully address concerns
    whether it be a matter of a few minutes… or over a course of years.

    That type of influence goes far deeper has a more significant temporal and eternal value
    bears fruit and fruit which remains,,,

    May God richly bless each and every Pastor, counselor, ministry worker…
    who takes the time to hear out a story, to interact, and thoughtfully respond to those who have been hurt, are confused, and seek to move forward in the power of the Holy Spirit,

    May God empower you to be that salt, light, and refreshing to others
    and in the manner that you so minister to others,
    may you also be ministered to.

  49. Sister Christian says:

    correction, this sentence should read:

    in all likelihood in those instances, ( where someone is showing genuine care and concern) it will not matter if one inadvertently uses “move on” instead of “move forward”

  50. Jerry F says:

    Yep, P,P-that was it. House of Psalms. I worked at the House of Wax (TBN). And that was Paul. Jan was another story. I really don’t think that was wax she was wearing.

  51. Sister Christian says:

    “that the anger I’ve had and have about the hurts and injustices can be very sinful.”

    Believe,

    The hurt and the anger can get overwhelming at times cant it?
    Thats when we need good friends to come alongside us,
    Those who know what we have been through,
    Not to discount what has happened… But to show us a better way
    How to move forward, little by little, much like a physical therapist
    to help us “Move forward” to progress in and through our pain
    to healing, to as much as possible wholeness through our brokenness.

    While it is true that we “can do all things through Christ who strengthens us”,
    It is also true that it is good when others come alongside us in our distress.
    to give us those needful encouragements and remind us with hope!

  52. Believe says:

    …yes the technical words used aren’t important…it is the Principle and the spirit of what Michael and others have articulated that is important.

    I’d rather have the words wrong and the heart and actions right.

    “Move On” or “Move Forward”…it’s the concept, the Principle that’s being articulated and the examples of “how” you do it that are important.

  53. Believe says:

    Sister C, yes it can.

    And, yes, that’s what I’m learning about the PP…and that’s what many of the pastors on here and others are trying to do…to help someone like me move forward.

    I’ve (mistakenly many times) seen involvement on here as an opportunity to warn and rebuke pastors…when the ones who need the warning and rebuke may read here from time to time…but aren’t going to receive it anyways…while the good guys get hammered and discouraged…and others get dragged down and worn out with all the negativity.

    It’s good to get it out and express your anger and frustration…but to sit and spin and dwell on it forever isn’t healthy and leads to sin.

    There in lies the balance…you don’t act like it never happened, but you don’t allow it to dominate your existence…and turn into unrighteous anger and a spirit of bitterness.

  54. cattledrive says:

    moooooooove forward!

    I have no beef with that.

    I udderly agree with the advice.

    Eat pork!

  55. Believe says:

    ….mmmm…bacon.

    Bacon-wrapped bacon.

  56. Em says:

    Believe,”a spirit of bitterness.” that’s the enemy that almost all have to overcome – it stops God’s blessing and even His fellowship (with us) IMHO

  57. Dusty says:

    Em, not sure it stops God’s blessings….remember Hannah? She was bitter at heart because she did not have any children…God blessed her, He heard her prayer and gave her a son, Samuel.

  58. Dusty says:

    Did you all hear about the National Day of Prayer being Deemed Unconstitutional??!!!!

  59. Dusty says:

    Bitter

    1.having a harsh, disagreeably acrid taste, like that of aspirin, quinine, wormwood, or aloes.

    2.producing one of the four basic taste sensations; not sour, sweet, or salt.

    3.hard to bear; grievous; distressful: a bitter sorrow.

    4.causing pain; piercing; stinging: a bitter chill.

    5.characterized by intense antagonism or hostility: bitter hatred.

    6.hard to admit or accept: a bitter lesson.

    7.resentful or cynical: bitter words.

  60. Dusty says:

    looking over these definitions….I can see that #3, 4, and 6 all applied to me -that is how I felt when all that mess happened to me at the Cc I left. I do not apologize for any of them…and I was not wrong to feel bitterly. And now…I still feel a bitter sorrow for them…a..if I did not, I would not be able to bring myself to continue to pray for them.

    I have a feeling the bitterness that the Bible warns us against if the bitter hatred…and possibly the bitter words that cut deep…

  61. Dusty says:

    5.characterized by intense antagonism or hostility: bitter hatred.

    We have seen this one here many times over the past few years….hardly any of those displaying this type of bitterness were the wounded…but those who wanted us to move on.

  62. centorian says:

    interesting shiloh you tube. I saw a few friends, including the guy who went around rebuking all of us.

  63. deadmanwalking says:

    Michael says:
    April 16, 2010 at 10:34 am
    DMW,

    It is interesting how many different perspectives I’ve heard on the subject…

    ————

    Michael – It really does depend on what era of Shiloh you were involved with. I know those involved in the later part of it were more blessed that those who were involved in the early days – And I am not kidding about getting in trouble for smiling and having fun in one season, then to turn around and get in trouble for not having smiling and having a joyful continuance a few months later.

    I remember sneaking to Fosters’ Freeze and getting those Chocolate dipped cones and hiding in the alley because that was consider carnal to eat good taking food. I am not kidding at that house at that time, they were so into deny the flesh that they frowned on all pleasure and eating any good tasting food, they considered it feeding our carnal natures and though we would be more spiritual is was just ate bulgar corm mean and Lentils, and Lentil Loaf of course .. Then a few months after I left they actually had ice ,cream in the house. when you consider there were like 40 different communes at the time I was there, each one had their own quirks at different times. I mean when the elders are like all under 25 an most less than a few years old in the Lord, and the people living in the communes were like me straight out of drugs, and I had been living on the streets, sleeping under bridges, so you had a very hard to manage groupd of people, with very immature leadership, so it’s bound to be unstable. Later of couse every one outgrew some of the stuff I was hit with.

  64. deadmanwalking says:

    And PLEASE someone watch this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H-29cJSuv8 and comment on it

  65. Em says:

    Dusty, i would have to do some digging, but i believe it is recorded in scripture that when she was no longer bitter God blessed her with an answer to her prayer … mebbe somebody here knows … off to dig in Blue Letter Bible a bit … which will bless me 🙂

  66. Em says:

    Dusty, regarding Hannah’s bitterness? …well, after a thorough and intense 9 minute search, this is the best i can do and it certainly is open to conjecture as far as i can see

    1Sa 1:18 “And she said , Let thine handmaid find grace in thy sight . So the woman went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more [sad]” and she went home and … well you know …

    the priest did tell her that her petition would be granted before her attitude changed…

  67. victorious says:

    DMV. “I must say in the CC movement that it’s the pastor’s wives that are the glue that keep the whole thing together.”

    From my vantage point and experience I would agree

    Michael, such a good word. Jesus never gets over us and gently but persistently moves us forward as we renew our vision in Him.

  68. Em says:

    DM, i did 🙂

    my comment: did she put a bag of carrots in her cupboard? do Presbyterians do that?

    even at my advanced years i’ve been uncomfortable with “Christianeze” – altho folks who’ve paid their dues and earned their stripes can use it gracefully, most of us sound funny

  69. Dusty says:

    “the priest did tell her that her petition would be granted before her attitude changed…”

    Em, I was thinking this meant that God had spoken to Eli and told Hannah though him that she would have a child.

    either way she was not rebuked for being bitter…for having a bitter sorrow.

  70. Dusty says:

    lol Em, I wondered the same thing about the bag of carrots – why she was putting them in there. 😉

  71. Dusty says:

    oh…maybe she was led to put them there. 😉

  72. Em says:

    “either way she was not rebuked for being bitter” i think you’re right, Dusty

  73. Em says:

    Dusty, 😆 the “Christianeze” thing to do with vegetables?

  74. Isaiah56:1 says:

    DMW, That you tube video cracked me up! Thanks for sharing it! I had a really hard day – the laugh helped!

  75. Em says:

    regarding Hannah’s bitterness:
    1Sa 1:10 And she [was] in bitterness 4751 of soul 5315, and prayed 6419 unto the LORD 3068, and wept 1058 sore 1058 .
    Strong’s #4751 is Hebrew word ‘mar’
    1) bitter, bitterness
    a) of water or food
    b) of harlot’s end, end of wickedness, cry (fig.)
    c) of pain (subst)
    so… doesn’t it seem that legitmate pain would fit Hannah’s state of mind, perhaps there wasn’t a ‘bad attitude’ at all?

    (didn’t mean to rabbit trail here – hope it’s ok)

  76. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Michael,
    I have occasionally thought that a book on Shiloh might be an interesting project.
    I just pulled out some old Shiloh material and flipped through it – oh boy – I’m not sure it would be healthy for my mental state to spend too much time reading it all… there were some strange teachings, and strange practices for sure!

  77. Believe says:

    “7.resentful or cynical: bitter words.”

    That’s the one I struggle with. I don’t hate, I really do love. I’d have a relationship in a heartbeat if it was allowed….one based on truth and not lies, based on repentance and healing all the way around.

  78. Believe says:

    Isaiah and Michael…a Shiloh Book would be very interesting.

    There’s an important story there…good and bad.

    It is a part of Church History.

  79. ( | o )====::: says:

    DMW,
    That video is priceless. Let’s see if I can do it…

    “Thanks for sharing, brother, that was anointed, and I’m so very blessed!”

    -ok, how’d I do? 😉

  80. Believe says:

    I feel led by the Spirit to share a word I received today to bless you with my brothers and sisters…a word of encouragement to help you in the darkness of your struggles. The enemy is all around us…we must keep watch and stand guard of our hearts…and beseech the Lord in prayer for His provision, His power and His presence in our midst. The Lord is our Shepherd and He loves His sheep!

    Can I get an amen?

    (Just a little Christianeze… 🙂 …God forgive me, you know I’m kidding 🙂 )

  81. deadmanwalking says:

    Here is another really funny one — Dr Phil counsels Adam and Eve re: Cain and Able —
    I never knew the Presbyterians had a sense of humor before

  82. Believe says:

    DMW…that was hilarious.

    Did you see this one? My stomach hurts from laughing so hard.

  83. deadmanwalking says:

    victorious says:
    April 16, 2010 at 5:37 pm
    DMV. “

    Hey Vic — – I get in enough trouble without people associating me with the DMV

    I am DeadManWalking not the DepartmentofMotorVehicles

  84. deadmanwalking says:

    And yeah, the Pastor’s wives really love each other and are real with each other, and actually talk to each other about things that matter , not like the pastors conference where the same 10 questions are asked to over and over again. When used to get to go to the pastor’s wives conferences because Debbie needed help. So I saw how the pastor’s wives have real fellowship with each other. Of course women are a lot louder than the men :

    Here is how i see the Senior pastors Conferences :-I :-I 🙂 🙁 :-/ :-{ )>

    Here is how I see the Pastor’s wives 🙂 † 🙂 † 🙂 † 🙂 🙂 † 🙂 🙂 † 🙂

    Oden and I used to joke when he was head of CCOF about making Tee Shirts that stated with the answers to the top 10 questions each guy would ask the other. It would make them talk about something other that how big their fellowship was, and if what their building situation was so they wouldn’t have anything to talk about

  85. centorian says:

    we obviously don’t know the same pastor’s wifes….. but let me throw out a disclaimer that the wives here in this area are pretty solid, but from my experience, most that I know personally are more power hungry than their husbands.. I rarely meet a pastor’s wife that I like and it was the abuse and controlling of pastor’s wife that was the final straw of why I left being an assistant.

    I will say though that their job is extremely difficult, and I would not want it for anything.

  86. Sue says:

    DMW – Some things that were going on at Shiloh trickled down to CCCM or maybe they trickled up to Shiloh – went through a time there where if you weren’t smiling all the time you were suspect, if you went to the beach,etc., that was fleshing out – if you didn’t say “praise the Lord” at least once in every conversation (if not many times), you were suspect – of something like being lukewarm, etc. Just glad those days are gone for me! Got a good laugh at the video you shared here too.

    Anyone know what happened to a guy named Mickey who hung out at CCCM and House of Miracles in Santa Ana back in the late 60’s? Drove a black hearse and had a daughter named Maranatha. I think of him and his wife he had back then and they moved and I wonder sometimes how he is—-

  87. Believe says:

    Chicken Pickers, Tree Planters, The Land, Dexter Lake…so many memories…but from a kid’s perspective.

  88. Believe says:

    …forgot Fern River Reservoir.

  89. Isaiah56:1 says:

    I have a collection of very classic Shiloh and early Calvary photos, chicken picken, tree planting, apple picking, The Land Dexter, Eugene, you name it. Some of them would make you shudder – some laugh your head off.

  90. brian says:

    That reminds me of some of my living in “Christian” Community has some of the most joyous and painful of times. I think we wanted to live in community so bad we tried to kill each other to do it. The men I lived with at the first house still hold a place in my heart, they would count me a heretic know if they knew how I really thought, personally I would hope God would grant me the strength to lay down my life for them if needed, to His glory.

    I was reading some Ray Comfort atheist central blog, I dont know why I am drawn to this type of section, maybe because it is so basic, even infantile but it is still clear. The right and the wrong, the black and the white, the other part is the Kirk Cameron factor, no matter how much I want to “hate” not literal hate the guy I cant, he is just one of those glow in the dark kind of Christians, if that makes any sense. We need clear basic lines and when I lived in community we had the lines, but the boarders of the lines kept getting wider. On Mr. Comfort’s blog several people whom do not have a religious belief system, said some very unkind things about God’s glory, no need to repeat them. So I thought why does God need Glory, well he does not need Glory. It is sort of like the birth of a new baby, the baby does not “need” oh how beautiful what a wonderful child it is just the response of the parents (hopefully) towards the child. It just is, not that it is needed at the time, it is just the response.

    The scene that comes to mind for me is the response of the centurion to The Lord Jesus on the cross, surely this is the Son of God. I am convinced the Lord required our worship. So I viewed Glory / Worship is a gift of God to us so we can “experience” the sacred, in other words, we need so God gave. I dont know if that makes any sense but it has helped me. A side note, as strange as this may sound, when I was ready to pack it in, give up the faith etc, it was not Christians that stopped me, they were more then willing to give me directions to the door, it was three atheists on the internet that actually said say with your faith, dont leave for emotional bitter reasons. I always found that rather strange.

  91. deadmanwalking says:

    I hear you cent — met a few of those too. But overall they are a great bunch.. My wife never was involved in the women’s ministry. A pastor’s wife is she is outgoing is viewed as over bearing,, if she is shy she is viewed as stuck up. They get constant close examination, and I from time to time told the Church that Debbie is my wife, and she is not the churches property. And I said on several occasion that people could backbite me and do what they want to me, but it would be bad for their health if they picked on my beloved. They have the tougher job by far.

    And yes I know a couple that are more ambitious than their husbands –And when a pastor’s wife is mean, they are vicious and it is a terror to the church. But they are few and far between.

    But you need to see them at a conference — they jump for joy and scream when they see an old friend. And when they fellowship, it is intense and “LOUD” and almost always around real issues and around the Lord . The Senior Pastor’s conferences for for the last decade for me went sour. Delete Delete Delete Delete Delete Delete Delete Delete Delete

    I just wrote out how I really feel and decided it best to delete it

  92. Cash says:

    The legacy of Shiloh is one of cult-like abusiveness, and some of those leaders remained leaders in the CC movement, continuing to deal with people in the way they learned to at Shiloh.

    A thorough understanding of the effects of Shiloh on these leaders and also on those trained up by these leaders would shed light on much of their ministry history.

    There are bodies strewn all along the way.

  93. brian says:

    “There are bodies strewn all along the way.”

    I dont recommend this as one could lose their faith, but if one looks at the history of the faith, the bodies were a very small price to pay for truth. Actually they were collateral damage and because they got in the way, it was their sin. As DMW I deleted the rest of my post.

  94. Sue says:

    Cash – sadly – so true –

  95. brian says:

    I was watching a tv show about missionaries leaving their mission and the “emotional” response, first from my Christian experience emotionalism, of any kind is of Satan so it made me wince a bit. It should have been a more like contract closing, maybe a good bye but all the emotionalism is basically evil. I have always tried to manage my goodbyes in an effective non emotional response, especially where the death of a loved one. But I have failed, miserably. I dont say this for effect but with real shame, I have counted this one of my main failures in the faith. I cant seem to grasp the pragmatic almost robotic response to God’s work, basically no response.

    I know this has been one of the deepest struggles in the Christian faith, next to showing grief, was the showing of need / emotional response etc. The video clip made me think of the many good byes of people I have worked with, usually when they have died. I will admit, I try often with great effort to not grieve, even a little, outside of what is expected, but I am even extremely careful in that event.

    I had a dream one time, granted it was emotional but it was still a dream, that God let me cry over a lost loved one with out rebuking me, rolling their eyes, or telling me all I want is attention. I would never actually expect it, but it is a dream. Which it will always remain.

  96. London says:

    btw…They are cheetos..not carrots.
    says so on the bag

  97. Sue says:

    Brian – To me your dream sounds like how God is – he let you cry with out rebuking you – acceptance – for me moving forward is to not just follow every pied piper of christiomdom as if they are correct – for me its to question what they say if it doesn’t sit right with me – I listen to the red flags that go up inside myself – I weigh things said against the description of God in 1 corinthians 13 – helps me for what its worth —

  98. Captain Kevin says:

    I got this in my email today, and immediately thought of my Phoenix Preacher family. It’s by Chuck Swindoll, SO worth the time to read, and fits perfectly in this thread. Praying you’re blessed.

    Proverbs 6:27-29, 32-33

    “I just returned from our nation’s capital where I was privileged to spend time with many of the highest ranking officers in the military. If you have ever wondered if there is anyone in the upper echelon of the military who loves Christ, wonder no longer. Many of these men and women are magnificent models of strong Christian commitment who frequently put their faith on the line.

    While sitting around a table one morning, the subject of moral purity surfaced. They spoke of the importance of an officer’s having a clean record and maintaining strong character traits if he or she hoped to be trusted in larger realms and promoted to higher ranks. Their commitment to personal integrity was expressed so spontaneously and sincerely.

    As I listened to them, I was humiliated to think that a standard of high moral character was still of paramount importance among military officers while within the ranks of the clergy an epidemic of impurity rages.

    As Christian leaders, we need to reaffirm our commitment to moral purity and to private lives that are absolutely free of secret sins. While forgiveness continues to be the pulse-beat of a grace-oriented ministry, a firm commitment to holiness remains vital. Those who adopt a deceptive, compromising life of hypocrisy are responsible for the damage that occurs when they are found out. Nor are the consequences erased, even though they may repent and seek the Lord’s and others’ forgiveness.

    Often, we are too quick to breeze past the damage that has been done, attempting to hurry the process of forgiveness at the expense of the restoration process. A contrite heart has no expectations and makes no demands; it acknowledges that the deception and the extent of continued sin result in the continued forfeiture of many of the privileges that were once enjoyed. Please read that again. If you’ve gotten soft on this issue, stop and read the daily reading suggested above. Don’t try to explain these verses away. They mean exactly what they say.

    The issue here is not a lack of forgiveness; it’s the faulty thinking that forgiveness is synonymous with the returning of all rights and privileges.

    Never has the truth of Peter’s words resounded more clearly: “It is time for judgment to begin with the household of God” (1 Pet. 4:17).

    As believers, we need to reaffirm our commitment to moral purity and to private lives that are absolutely free of secret sins.”

  99. deadmanwalking says:

    ash says:
    April 16, 2010 at 11:01 pm
    The legacy of Shiloh is one of cult-like abusiveness, and some of those leaders remained leaders in the CC movement, continuing to deal with people in the way they learned to at Shiloh.
    A thorough understanding of the effects of Shiloh on these leaders and also on those trained up by these leaders would shed light on much of their ministry history.
    There are bodies strewn all along the way.

    ———————————–

    I personally believe that Shiloh at time crossed from line from cult -like to full blown cult– again it depended on the house you were at. Some had great liberty, while others were cults – it was inconsistent .

    When you lived in a house, by necessity there had to be total control. They had to have a light out time and time to wake up etc. They controlled every part of your life. Not it had to be that way. But the problem is when you have to have rules that have no Spiritual orientation, that is to day they are not rules that have a moral right ot wrong to them, but they are just needed when you have 40 or 50 strangers living in one house together, and when the elders confuse those rules with Spiritual Moral standards, and start to confuse it. You end up with breaking a purely man made temporary rule, but those who enforce it, make it our like you broke a Standard of the word of God.

    In any case, when you have any situation, be it a college, or a commune, where people need what I wold call non-biblical rules, and those in charge don’t make it clear — :this is a college rule” and “this is a Biblical Standard” then the potential of those in charge turning into a cult grows. And I was in a couple of different houses at different times when they crossed the line into full blown cults. Now you might go back 6 months later and find the same house to be one with more liberty that most — I guess I would just say Shiloh was to spread out, 30 houses — too inconsistent constantly changing- and the leadership was made of people to young to lead and therefore you will never be able to find a way to define or describe it that would have any meaning, because what ever you chose to share about it, would only apply to a certain house at a certain place in the history of the whole. And the “whole” as a mess. even though “The Land” was perhaps more consistent, and was more or less the center, when I was there -pre-Land and Post-Land the Land had little or no influence on the individual leaders in the individual houses.

    But as far at the Shiloh effect on current leaders, I would say it was CCCM rigid top down government example that made the communes the way they were, thrust it was CCCM influence that shaped those men into rigid top down leader types and not the other way around .

    An just curious did anyone watch the Your Tubes of Shiloh — I must admit seeing all those people I knew so long ago brought a few tears to my eyes and those two you-tubes brought back a flood of feeling and memories.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvcuGvFkeiE

  100. nancy says:

    “The issue here is not a lack of forgiveness; it’s the faulty thinking that forgiveness is synonymous with the returning of all rights and privileges.”

    Just thought that was worth repeating again.

    Kevin, Great 9:49 post … thanks for sharing!

  101. Cash says:

    **But as far at the Shiloh effect on current leaders, I would say it was CCCM rigid top down government example that made the communes the way they were, thrust it was CCCM influence that shaped those men into rigid top down leader types and not the other way around.**

    Interesting point DMW. I guess it always goes back to that rigid, top-down, Moses leadership model. It’s a breeding ground for abusive personalities.

  102. Sue says:

    DMW – I watched them – and am appreciating your sharing – behind the smiles was lurking alot of pain – was true in SoCal too.

  103. deadmanwalking says:

    Sue — those shots of Shiloh were a few years after I left. It actually shows them playing games and eating ice cream — no such thing went on in the house I lived it.. and I’ve had Lentil loaf that I like, but I thing the sisters conspired to take all the flavor out of the food, and in the you tube a lot of the girls are dressed nice, when I was there they uglyfied themselves. Most of the sisters in winter took on the appearance of grizzly bears. It was really forced on them, so they wouldn’t stumble the brothers — I remember a dispute the sister brought up about the guys taking off their shirts — the sisters were getting back for being forced to wear long ugly dresses all the time, so they said the brothers taking off their shirts stumbled them.. it at times was so petty, that I got a kick out of just watching it all unfold –

    The days that most of those photos are from, things were better. Remember I was for the first time in 1970 – kicked out for the last time in the end of 72 or early 73 .

  104. Scott says:

    DMW, you almost seem to wear being kicked out of Shiloh as a badge of honor 🙂

    I spent 4 years of my life in a similar environment, it kind of gives me the creeps to see some of those early years photos.

    Not sure why I spent so many years letting someone tell me when to get up, where to work, what to believe and how to “submit” to authority whether it was truly biblical or not.

  105. odenfong says:

    When I hear of the bullying and abuses which happened in the communes, whether it happened in Shiloh, Calvary Chapel, or any other, I can still see, hear and feel the pain which is permanently branded into the hearts of the victims.

    I am pretty certain that most guilty leaders in Shiloh and Calvary were bullies and abusers without knowing it. This doesn’t justify what they were and did, but it is part of the explanation.

    Both Calvary and Shiloh movements were very young in the commune days. The leaders were still babes in the Lord themselves and suddenly had all these hippies and others to shepherd. There was a lot of legalism because the people becoming Christians were wild and sensual. The leader were trying to control the communes “in their flesh” rather than in the Spirit.

    The “homes” had to have rigid rules because many of them were co-ed. Some believers were still smoking pot, taking LSD and having sex with sisters or brothers.
    At the same time, power corrupts when it is absolute. When men have power and especially when they believe that their power is from God, all kinds of overlording occurs.

    As the brothers learned more of the scripture, particularly about humility and love… things got better, but the damage had been done. Most all houses closed. It became just another chapter of church history.

    We can learn from the mistakes of the past. We may never see a commune movement in the United States, but we have to constantly be reminded of the role of a shepherd,

    1 Peter 5:1-4
    The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed, Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

  106. Still Wounded says:

    Thank you Captain Kevin for your post by Chuck Swindol. But what about those who don’t lose their privileges. What about those who remain in leadership and are not held accountable? I left a church where there was one man who called the shots and was accountable to no one. He made unBiblical decisions that caused me deep wounds, and I am still healing. I left a ministry I was involved in because I could not work under a man who made some choices that violated God’s word, but he is still there, in power, and just a great “PR” guy, so everybody loves him. So what about people like him, where the leaders are too weak to take a stand for Christ against his conduct?

  107. centorian says:

    Still,
    Having survived more situations similar to yours than I would have liked, all I can say is that God knows, God sees, and His mercy is forever.

    I am glad God is not inclined to treat me the way I would like to treat some of my abusors. There are still things that don’t make sense to me, but it has shaped me in such a way that I hope will always prevent me from abusing others…. I am forced with no other recourse other than to trust God. Some it seems, are never going to be held accountable in this life.

    And yet there are times it seems where God is just, or at least it seems that way from my perspective. I am speaking about a situation in my life where one who abused and wounded me deeply ( and this I endured as his pastor, it goes both ways) is now reaping what he is sowing. While it may appear to be justice from my perspective, what may be closer to the truth is that God is correcting one of His sons because of His goodness and mercy. Among other things I have to remind myself that God operates from His perspective and vantage point, not mine.

  108. Lutheran says:

    SW,

    I’m sorry you experienced what you did.

    There are no hard and fast rules, unfortunately. I still think in many instances, the best thing you can do is ‘cut and run.’ There are always better churches out there!!

    What’s really sad is that these situations, where there is no two-way accountability, the healing process is so long and confusing. It grieves me to see people in this emotional and mental state that often lasts a really long time. It’s a lot easier to comment when you’re removed from it, I know. I’ve said before, I’ll never again be part of a church where
    the pastor gets some of ‘pass’ from accountability just because he’s in that role.

    I sure do agree with Chuck Swindoll…I spent quite a few years in the corporate world. And while it’s no picnic there, I did see Gal. 6:7 occur many times. People who treated others with a lack of morality were sooner or later found out and removed. Sometimes it took a lot of time, but it did occur. Of course, that was over 10 years ago. From what I hear, that may have changed at many companies.

  109. brian says:

    About community living, I think it can work if the community has a very distinct focus, clear conflict resolutions and an overall governing concept people agree to before they become part of it. First red flag would be you cut yourself off from your past life I E family etc. The group I am looking at is this http://www.larche.ca/ or similar type organization. Basically an apartment, where the people with disabilities own their apartments (this is one of the best ways to help increase economic independence), but the land is monitored by a non profit organization controlled by the group that would keep structure and protect those involved from being taken advantaged of. “Staff” could also live in the complex to help with personal needs.

    Even with the budget cuts and watching the program I love shrink, I know that spending is not the total answer, empowerment and accountability are also factors that need to be included. I think faith based groups could play a great part in this, for example the faith based groups that help prisoners change, it seems that the faith based groups, recidivism is much less then other types of correction. Of course I may be wrong on this I have not totally checked out these statistics. An example, the ACLU went after the national day of prayer, which I am not a fan of, but ask yourself, when was the last time the ACLU dealt with issues like consumer rights, renters protections even environmental issues, of course I have not looked this up in detail but the national level seems to be prayer in school / public, 10 commandments plaques, etc. That makes no sense. I know when I called them for help about being “illegally” searched they basically said we dont deal with that. Of course it was more complicated and I would even go so far to say I support some of the efforts of the ACLU. I dont get them being so ticked off at religion, which they totally come across as. I dont get that.

  110. brian says:

    OH my goodness I sounded like a conservative, I am now sitting in the corner with a paper bag over my head in the time out chair. 🙂

  111. Still Wounded says:

    Dear Centorian and Lutheran,

    Thanks for the posts. For some reason, I have had a really really hard time getting over what happened in my former church. As Lutheran said, the healing process has been long and confusing. I have moved on, with my family, to a church that has deep integrity and commitment to the 21 qualifications of elders and overseers as well as to accountability. I have been blessed by the church’s integrity, yet I know it will not be perfect. But it has been a place that has helped me with healing. However, it has been nearly a year since I left my old church and I still find myself bitter at times with my old church. It could be because I went to my old church for many many years and was involved in a ministry there that I suffered the loss of. I know that God is in control and He sees things differently than I do,but I honestly still feel sometimes like I wish I could go tell the pastor off!!! That is so horrible and unChristlike of me, but I find myself dwelling on the things that happened. (There were a few things that were just plain corrupt and kept very secret which I learned of because of my close friendship with people involved). Anyway, leaving the church was the best decision my husband I have made in a long time, but why is it so easy for some people to just move on, and I can’t?

  112. centorian says:

    Still,
    I would think you are moving on. For one, you’re not there anymore. Sometimes moving on is frustrating because it is not at the pace we would like..

    I thought worse things than you….. telling them off would have been mild for me….. I finally decided I wanted to walk with God more than I wanted to fantasize about getting even. I’m not saying that’s what you are or are not doing, but it’s what I did.

  113. Still Wounded says:

    That is good, Centorian. I do know that when I focus on the Lord more, my feelings of bitterness aren’t as strong…thanks & God bless you for listening.

  114. brian says:

    What a wonder, a movie on TBN that makes one think. I watched the Genius Club, granted it is basic 101 philosophy which can be easily, and often has been refuted. What impressed me is that they tried, I give alot of credence to trying, even over proving, trying ranks very high on my personal scale. They tried and I was blessed by the trying.

  115. Believe says:

    brian, just want you to know that I read darn near all of your posts…and enjoy them.

    You have a fascinating perspective on things. You bring quite a different angle most of the time and I am blessed by it. Just wanted you to know that FWIW.

  116. Believe says:

    Still Wounded…praying for you right now. It’s so tough sometimes.

  117. Michael says:

    We love brian…we just can’t convince of that we do… 🙂

  118. brian says:

    Michael I have always known I am loved, my problem is I dont feel like I should be loved. I think that is the major problem in the Church, we do not feel like we can be loved. The “I feel” aspect of this is what I wish to focus on. I even knew I was loved, even in the most worse of the “abuse” if it is even worthy of being called that in light of the Cross. It is, and always has been, my students, on my soul they are the heart and soul of any truth. A, Brian, Jesus loves you, a I am praying for you, a Dont you know God is looking out for you. It is a constant theme in my life. I took a group of students to an assembly person today, we were almost hit by several cars, pulling out in front of us, cutting off people across three lanes of traffic with no signal. Of course I commented with the required evangelical response, One of my students found my “objection” with a small chuckle.

    Basic truth is often reveled in the “least of these” I was ticked that they got in the way of my good works. I mean look I am here helping these people and you dare get in my way. Well in the end after several interesting comments, I laughed at myself and my self righteousness. Actually I laughed out loud and just soaked in my own mediocrity. It is quite freeing to learn ones position. Basically my position is one of desperation. Basically I need God He does not need me. I find great peace in that, I always have.

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