The Deception Of The Elect: Kevin H

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56 Responses

  1. Linn says:

    Kevin H-Yes, there is deception, and a lot of it comes from the NAR folks with their 7 Mountains theory and their desire to take over every sphere of human influence. Everyone not involved in the takeover is demon-possessed, at least, that was the take-away from an NPR program I listened to yesterday. The host of the program was trying to explain that the NAR had very little to do with garden variety evangelicalism, but that their influence in Christian politics has become enormous.

    So, on that happy note, I just mailed my ballot in which I showed my “godless” and heretical tendencies by voting for several Democrats because I gave up on the Republican party (which I now consider a religious cult at the altar of Trump) after 1/6/2021. I don’t support everything the Democrats are for, by the way, but I fear the Republicans more at this point.

  2. Kevin H says:

    Linn, I am still a registered Republican, but I agree much of the party has become a cult. The sad thing is Christians who should know better, especially pastors and preachers, have joined the cult, sometimes even taking the lead in driving the cult.

  3. Dread says:

    So might one vote for the putative Republican candidate for president without joining a cult, following false prophets and joining the deceived elect?

  4. Kevin H says:

    Dread, most certainly.

  5. Michael says:

    It is possible…but I would ask why a follower of Jesus would support someone obviously reprobate.

    Why is it still deemed possible;e that a man without a shred of Christian character is going to “restore” something moral to the nation?

    The NRB gathering was the end of the line for me…God’s answer to idolatry is always judgment…which may fall on all of us soon….I’m terrified for the young people…

  6. Bob Sweat says:

    The people that I know who are supporting Trump are supporting him because of their hatred of Biden.

    “Why is it still deemed possible;e that a man without a shred of Christian character is going to “restore” something moral to the nation?”

    “The NRB gathering was the end of the line for me…God’s answer to idolatry is always judgment…which may fall on all of us soon….I’m terrified for the young people…”

    I agree!!!!

  7. Jean says:

    “So might one vote for the putative Republican candidate for president without joining a cult, following false prophets and joining the deceived elect?”

    I was thinking about a similar question: Could a principled Christian agree to run as the Vice President along side the putative Republican candidate?

    I think for either question in order to answer “yes” one would have to be willing to repudiate all the lies and all the undemocratic, unconstitutional rhetoric and actions of the candidate which pour forth from his mouth and pen on an almost daily basis. Is one able and willing to do that?

    Look what happened to poor Mike Pence. In 2015, Pence was the gold standard of a conservative, evangelical man who previously served as governor of state of Indiana. He had the credentials, reputation and faith that anyone running for national office would love to have.

    Now, he is roadkill at best. He is considered weak, traitorous and a RINO. How did this happen? While in office (prior to 1/6/2021), Pence twisted himself into a pretzel trying to support his President in whatever he said and was doing. He looked the other way or ridiculous for 4 whole years making excuse after excuse for his President. No one has ever been more loyal. Then when he did the bare minimum of following the Constitution on 1/6/2021, his president and his party turned on him and branded him a traitor.

    So, how could anyone vote for the man and remain a constitutional republican, a real conservative (not just agreeing with the President), and just plain honest about what is being said and done by the president? If one can do all of those things (and I don’t know if we could find anyone in our entire country who has actually been able to do them), then I suppose the answer is “yes.”

    The list of roadkill from the prior administration is enormous. I don’t know where the next list will come from. Everyone is on notice. It will probably be birds of a feather – and that is downright frightful.

  8. DavidP says:

    I was at NRB in 98 and 99 when everyone was despondent over Clinton’s affairs and accusations. To hear them cheer Trump’s clearly blasphemous proposals is gross. I have many friends in Christian Radio who haven’t bent the knee, but the whole scene is looking pretty sick.

    At least Jesus got a nice scenic view of Jerusalem before Satan tempted him with power.

  9. Kevin H says:

    To expand upon my answer to Dread, I do think a Christian can vote for Trump without joining a cult or being deceived by false teachers. I do think they can come to the conclusion that on the whole, our country will be better off with Trump as president than Biden (as Biden is also not exactly the standard bearer of great morality and competence), and thus choose to cast a vote for Trump.

    However, with that said, with everything we know now about Trump in the depravity that he has increasingly and brazenly displayed over the last 8 years (and he was starting from a pretty depraved state to begin with) and the manner in which he tried to overturn democracy after the last election, I find it increasingly harder and harder to see how a Christian can ultimately rationalize casting a vote for such a narcissistic, wicked man who is far more extreme in his degeneracy than any other serious presidential candidate we have ever had. The Christian voter may not be deceived and not think Trump to be a good man and may be holding their nose while voting for the “lesser of two evils”, but I suspect they are likely employing some faulty thinking in making such a choice.

  10. Terrie R. Beede says:

    A few notes:
    I think it is important as Christians that we adhere to appropriate decorum. That means that as genteel men and women, we should speak of “President Biden”, “President Trump”, “President Obama”, “President Clinton”, “President Bush”, according to the time-honored standards of civility – irrespective of what we thing about the person’s character, competency, or political stance. This is fully in accordance with Romans 13:1-3 and 1 Pet 2:13-15. It is important to remember that when Peter and Paul spoke of obeying kings and all in authority, they were speaking of a government that was idolatrous, corrupt, and hostile to at least a certain degree toward Christians. I believe that is instructive for us today. We can be generally supportive, civil, law-abiding citizens even when we cannot be part of the politics, corruption, and idolatry. The world needs to see us doing this, because they have no other paradigm.

    Second, we must stop falling for the false dichotomy “I have to vote for one party or the other”. We don’t have to give a tacit endorsement by voting for the lesser of two evils. We don’t have to fear “What will happen if the wrong party gets in power”. The powers that be are ordained of God. I’m not implying that we don’t have a responsibility to vote – we should vote. But if there are no reasonable choices, we do not have to choose an unreasonable one, and we don’t have to choose “the least unreasonable one”. We can stand for Scripture, trust in our Lord, do good to all men, obey kings and all that are in authority – to the extent that Scripture will permit us to do so – and represent Christ to our world. In so doing, we will start to reason, deliberate, and act, with cool, crystal clear minds and hearts as the Word of God becomes enthroned in our lives.

  11. Terrie R. Beede says:

    …and if I may follow up, I agree with Kevin, that any intermixing of politics and Scripture becomes a false Gospel – whether Liberal or Conservative. The Christian should be neither. Our category should be “Other”. That is one of the definitions of holiness – “Separate, Other”.

    Joshua 5:13-14 are instructive for us. “Are you for us or for our enemies?”. The Angel replied “No, but as Commander of the Army of the Lord I have now come. Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy”

  12. Kevin H says:


    I don’t know how imperative it is as Christians that we hold to the decorum of using proper titles such as President, but at the very least, when we do choose to use such titles, it does seem to tame our disrespectfulness.

    As for binary voting, I totally agree. While from a practical standpoint, 99% of the time only a vote for one of the candidates from one of the two big parties can make a difference in the final results, from a moral and spiritual standpoint, there is no obligation that one needs to vote for either of the two main choices.

  13. Dread says:

    After nudging from friends “most certainly” became “I find it increasingly harder and harder to see how…”

    That’s what I thought.

  14. Janet LinnBrideofChrist says:

    All of this is baffling to me. I voted Republican for nearly 30 years – as a Christian- it seemed the right thing to do. But the Republican party changed in front of my eyes – they became so cruel to immigrants ( my grandfather was a Swedish immigrant), cruel to women, cruel to the poor, and cruel to anyone they deemed ‘other’. I was always a registered ‘Independent’ voter, but I started voting Democrat more often. My husband and I attended, and were married in, a Calvary Chapel Church, and we started to feel more and more uncomfortable as Calvary became more and more overtly politically inclined towards the Republican Party. We had been a part of Calvary Chapel for 37 years at this point and the thought of leaving our church family was distressing. The breaking point for me was when an internationally known woman leader announced from the pulpit in front of 50o women that, as women, we had no right to vote. Instead, we were required to vote only as our husbands told us to vote. I taught in the public schools as a credentialed teacher for 35 years and I taught my students about the American democratic system and their sacred responsibility and duty to vote in every election. Hearing this Calvary Chapel leader subvert our democracy in this way from the pulpit literally made my hair stand on end. My husband and I finally were able to make the break away from this church after this occurred. Calvary Chapel in the seventies, when I began attending, was not a Republican shill. Calvary Chapel traded God’s beautiful message of love and grace for base, power grubbing propaganda benefiting the MAGA Republicans.

  15. Dread says:

    I think I underestimate the embarrassment and loathing held by this community for former allegiance to Calvary Chapel.

    As a Southern Baptist based on historic baptist theology I was never enamored with imminent eschatologies or nationalistic theologies. I realize that the drift of SBC was in both directions over the years but no local church was bound by that spirit. Having left the denomination a quarter century ago I feel no embarrassment about them other than their founding based on pre-civil war politics. (of course that is no small thing) But I feel no commission to destroy them in reputation or existence.

    Further, I see no discernible difference in the antichrist realities of partisan politics and see no moral haven in either option.

  16. Kevin H says:


    My “most certainly” did not change to a “harder and harder”.

    The answer to your questions still remains that most certainly a Christian can vote for Trump without joining a cult or following after false teachers.

    However, in speaking to the broader topic of a whole – Christians voting for Trump – that is where I find it harder and harder to resolve how a Christian who knows the teachings of God, most greatly those commandments to love God and love neighbor, can choose to vote for a man who is more anti-christ in his ways than probably any other major candidate we have ever had for president.

  17. Dan from Georgia says:

    Good thoughts Kevin!

    Question for you and the group here, and I have my own thoughts on this, but what do you say to those who say “we are electing a President, not a Pastor”?

    Like I said, I am not looking for someone to tell me how to think on this as I have my own thoughts already formulated.

  18. Kevin H says:


    I think there is some truth to the phrase. However, the current use of it is pretty much completely BS as it used as cover by those who used to say that character in a president (or any elected official) is important, but now need some kind of excuse to minimize the importance of character so that they can exonerate themselves for voting for a man of extremely bad character.

    I think character is of greater importance in a pastor than a president, as evidenced by the Bible giving a list of character qualifications for a pastor and not doing the same for a government official. However, if we want to act like character doesn’t hold some significant importance in our elected officials, especially when one has shown themselves to be of excessively bad character, then we are intentionally putting our heads in the sand.

  19. Michael says:

    “Further, I see no discernible difference in the antichrist realities of partisan politics and see no moral haven in either option.”

    There is no “moral haven” on either side.

    That is not the issue at hand.

    The issue is that a large portion of the church is declaring a vile man to be one of their own…one who represents their hopes and aspirations and who meets their rousing approval.

    In truth, they are just affirming what I’ve been saying about the moral character of American evangelical leadership for a quarter of a century now…

    Mark my words…the apocalypse is upon us…we will all pay for this idolatry.

  20. Michael says:

    America is not a covenant nation, but the people of God are a covenant people.

    Judgment begins in the house of God…judgment fell upon Israel first because of their disobedience and idolatry that led to them rejecting their Messiah…how much worse will the judgment be for those who are disobedient and idolatrous while claiming the name of Jesus?

    When I started this site, people thought I’d lost my mind…that I was attacking godly men who were the apple of the Masters eye…that I was evil and an anti-Christ.

    History has vindicated me…but that is not much of a comfort now that I see all my fears coming true.

    Trump and the adoration given him is simply the consummation of the churches lust for power and love of authoritarianism.

    History will vindicate me again…if there is anyone left to write it.

  21. Kevin H says:

    “The issue is that a large portion of the church is declaring a vile man to be one of their own…one who represents their hopes and aspirations and who meets their rousing approval.”

    And that is the cult, at least the “Christian” portion of the cult. Whether the false teachers started the cult, or if the people started it and the teachers took to becoming false in order to satisfy the yearnings of the people (probably some kind of combination of the both), the end result has been many of the elect being deceived.

  22. Michael says:

    Deception is the coin of the realm at every level of communication these days.

    I would suggest that my experience tells me that in this case the deceived have chosen this path…rarely has it been so obvious that a leader is not of God…but God is not moving in the way some would prefer and the way of Jesus is unsatisfying to their desires…they want Barabbas…

  23. Michael says:

    Let me also address dread’s comment about the ‘loathing” of former Calvary Chapel affiliation here.

    Most of those who were hurt by Calvary Chapel are no longer on the site….because in reality, they still love the system that hurt them…they just want a kinder authoritarian rule.

    CC measures success and pastoral prestige by the number of asses in the seats…and MAGA flavored leadership fills the seats and coffers…they were trained for a generation to embrace someone like Trump and make every excuse for his behavior and their choice to support him….

  24. Reuben says:

    “…they were trained for a generation to embrace someone like Trump and make every excuse for his behavior and their choice to support him….”

    Very true, and I was trained for the same.

  25. Reuben says:

    “….because in reality, they still love the system that hurt them…they just want a kinder authoritarian rule.”

    Very true.

  26. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Kevin for your answer. That is along the lines of how I see things with that statement.

  27. Linn says:


    I also voted Republican for about 25 years, until Obama came along. I saw something in him that did give me hope, although I also liked Jack Kemp (and miss him, too). However, I couldn’t swallow Sarah Palin. The idea of something happening to Kemp and Palin being president pushed me totally away from the Republican party.

    I actually look for good governance in a candidate, and not so much at the party. I just mailed in my ballot, and there is an assortment of Dems and Repubs that I voted for.

    My current, huge problem with the Republican Party right now is the idolization of Trump. They let him control the congress, although he hasn’t even been declared a candidate yet! Because of that, we missed a once in a decade chance of doing something about the situation at the border. He is now trying to remake party in his own image. Since when has anyone done that with any political party?

    Yes, I would like a better candidate than Biden. But, I have a conscience, and it won’t allow me to vote for Trump. As to the argument about age, 76 is no spring chicken, either. I would like some younger, more vigorous choices, but we may need a constitutional crisis before that happens.

    Meanwhile, I know that the early Christians toughed it out under Nero and thrived. I pray that the faithful few who do not support Trump will continue to be faithful, and that I will be one of them. It may be like what God said to Elijah, that there were still many who had not yet bowed the knee to Baal.

  28. JanetLinnBrideofChrist says:

    Linn, I voted for a McCain over Obama, then four years later I voted for Obama. That period was difficult for me. I remember the very first time I voted against a Republican initiative in California. They wanted to throw all children of illegals out of the public schools in California. I voted against it, but it passed. Then it was a immediately declared unconstitutional by the courts and repealed! So I was vindicated. It was a terrible, cruel initiative, and I knew it was wrong and unjust.

  29. JTK says:

    It sounds exceedingly difficult but not impossible for me to vote for Trump.

    I will decide in mid October.

    But let me work out my shoddy thinking here and please give me some feedback, I’ve been here since the mid / late 2000s….

    (1) I have to vote for someone.
    I don’t have a problem “throwing away” my vote and not voting for either the Republican or Dem, I’ve done that somewhat recently.

    I can’t vote for the Dem. Since the overturn of Roe, single issue prolife voters should’ve had more options, but some Dems have taken insane stands on full term abortion. In my state, late term abortions are being practiced 300 yards from where we meet for church. TONS of Texas parking plates…

    It sounds nearly impossible for me to vote for Trump…

    (2) I do think too many evangelicals (still not a bad word for me until someone can tell me a more accurate term for Bible believing Christians I think they should evangelize) have conflated their politics with their Christianity, and even more people that hate God are looking for excuses not to believe in God and evangelical for support for Trump gives him that excuse.

    (3) The most popular fast food restaurant in America has probably still McDonald’s, which after looking at numerous things, is not a quality and safe option in my opinion. We don’t claim to judge all of any subsection of Christianity by the fact that majority of its adherence go to McDonald’s more than any other fast food or other restaurant do we?

    I know for seemingly a couple of centuries Christianity has been so dominant that we think one of the presidential candidates if not both are clearly Christians… I’ve heard it from both Trump and Biden supporters this year…. I have my doubts about both…. But now we are in the unenviable position that a lot of other nations in the world find themselves: we don’t really have an obvious Christian in the lot.

    Why do we judge all of American evangelism by voting for Trump so differently?


    Dr. Michael Brown has pointed out many of the false and failed Trump prophecies that people won’t recanted admit they were wrong, and those are absolutely sickening. trust me there’s plenty of evangelical support for Trump that I find anywhere from mistaken to disgusting. But in my mind, I ask similar to Babylon dread question…..

  30. jtk says:

    Bob Sweat
    “The people that I know who are supporting Trump are supporting him because of their hatred of Biden.”

    Trump won because people hated Hillary

    Biden won because people hated Trump

    Who knows what 2024 has to offer but I imagine the biggest reason anyone is voting for the other person is both Biden or Trump. Let’s be honest about that blade going both ways.

    Joe Biden doesn’t get 81 million votes unless it’s against Donald Trump.

  31. Kevin H says:


    Here are a few thoughts on your thoughts:

    As to the abortion issue, yes some Democrats have taken extreme wicked positions on full term abortion, but we must still evaluate each and every person and race separately. Some Republicans have taken some extreme wicked positions on issues like immigration, but that should not cause me to never vote for any Republican. Additionally, some general Democratic positions in favor of items like child tax credits and programs to address child and single mother poverty that Republicans commonly oppose actually help to reduce abortions, so it is not a completely black and white issue.

    The McDonald’s analogy I believe comes up short because there is a significant qualitative difference between choosing to eat fast food versus choosing to vote for and support a man to be the leader of our country, especially when that man has openly and proudly displayed many anti-christ behaviors and attitudes. Fast food has a deleterious effect on our bodies, but a wicked leader can have a crushing effect on the welfare of the people of their country, even other countries. Additionally, Christian support of such a wicked man has a much greater impact on it’s witness of Jesus Christ than does it’s support for fast food.

    Lastly, as to evangelicals, no we don’t judge all evangelicals for the fault of some, even as that fault seems to be growing in both size and severity. There are still many evangelicals who have remained faithful in trying to live out their lives for Christ and have not allowed politics to significantly interfere with that aspiration. I, myself, am still an evangelical and if I were to condemn all evangelicals for this sin, I would be condemning myself and many others for sins I and they have not participated in. However, it is plainly obvious that a whole lot of evangelicals have fallen to political corruption and idolization, and as God has called us to focus on rooting out sin within our own before focusing on sin outside our camps, there is a great need to speak to this issue which has in many ways consumed evangelical Christianity.

  32. Rob Murphy says:

    Kevin, respectfully, you are wrong about the Democratic party and abortion, specifically, the DNC (Democratic National Party) will not fund or run ads for any candidate who does not fully embrace no- limits abortion as the essential ‘service’ for the ‘Right to Choose’ issue. The DNC has pledged their absolute fealty to abortion. Any person registered as a Dem has signed their name to the party rolls and is endorsing the DNC platform. That’s how signatures work.

    As a matter of fact, the DNC touts the need to utilize abortion as a specific means of unifying against Trump. I’m aware of this because ironically, Trump’s condemnation of Florida’s 16 Week Ban as “a huge mistake” was my final puzzle piece for condemning Trump as an unacceptable candidate. (I am unapologetically a “one-issue voter” and have removed my name from the Republican Party for this reason.)
    So the official party platform of the DNC is that Abortion is essential to everything they want to accomplish. There are some Dems who are not passionately dedicated to abortion, but they are quickly being pushed aside, mocked, silenced, and abandoned financially in their campaigns. Look at how Tulsi Gabbard has been jettisoned from the party’s endorsements.

    Here’s the official statements:

    And this is from 2020, but their policy has not changed.

    And you said that some republicans have taken ‘some extreme wicked positions’ on immigration – but none have advocated for snipping immigrant’s brain stem, stealing their organs or grinding up the remains or burning the bodies for energy. That’s the exclusive purview of the DNC and abortion.
    There is nothing that honors God in the DNC platform.
    There is deceit and mockery in the RNC platform that pretends to care about honoring God, but does not.
    They both mock God.
    God will not be mocked.
    I will not lend my name or support to either/any of them. I insist that the most grievous thing – killing the unborn – is the reason we get everything else wrong. The slaughter of innocents makes to the neglect of the innocent, the exploitation of the innocent, and the enslavement of people palatable and “necessary” in world where the common denominator of every decision becomes ‘evil’. (See ‘choosing the lesser of two evils’.)

  33. Michael says:


    I appreciate this comment.
    I may disagree with you on some of the particulars, but it is the comment of a man letting his faith shape his politics…and that is what I think is most needful at this time.

    These are the kinds of thoughts that can help shape a discussion of these matters…whether one concurs completely or not….because they are centered on the faith.

  34. Kevin H says:


    Regardless of the official position of the DNC and whoever they may or may not fund ads for, the truth is not every candidate or race is the same in regards to their support for abortion. The senior U.S. senator from my state of Pennsylvania, Democrat Bob Casey Jr., is a moderate on abortion rights and has never nearly vouched for anything like no-limits abortion. His term is up this year and he is running again and far and away is expected to be the Democratic nominee.

    If you remember his father, Bob Casey Sr., the former Democratic Governor of Pennsylvania, was denied the opportunity to speak at the 1992 Democratic Convention because of his pro-life positions. The Democratic Establishment working against those who are deemed not pro-choice enough is nothing new under the sun, even if it has become more extreme. However, neither has the reality changed that not all Democrat politicians toe the line on the abortion issue as pressured by the Democratic Establishment, thus they are not all monolith on the issue.

  35. Kevin H says:

    But even as I disagree with you on the subject of how to evaluate Democratic candidates in regards to abortion, I do echo Michael’s comment that your approach in this instance of letting your faith drive your politics, as opposed to allowing politics driving your politics, is refreshing.

  36. Tired of the drama says:

    I’m not defending Trump, Biden, “Christian Nationalism” or anyone. My only comment is; when I read articles like this and their overt arrogance it makes me want to ask, no yell, ‘what makes you think you’re not the one deceived!’

    In general this article does more to separate and destroy ties between people than it informs anyone. Just more noise from the cacophony of those wanting to be right and draw attention to their opinions.

    Go make peace.

  37. Michael says:

    Tired of the drama,

    We have a wide open comment section for the purpose of discussing or debating anything we write.

    A helpful addition to the discussion was noted above…if you have some thing to contribute beyond “stop writing” we’d like to hear it.

    Otherwise, you have the option to “stop reading”.

  38. Kevin H says:


    First of all, when you say, “Just more noise from the cacophony of those wanting to be right and draw attention to their opinions,” you couldn’t be further from the truth. You have imputed motives upon me while seemingly knowing nothing about my heart or mind, nor being aware of the many times I have written directly to this type of accusation, explaining that my heart and concern in all of these types of writings is for the health of the church and its witness of Jesus Christ, and not in any way to try to prove my rightness or bring attention to myself.

    Secondly, could I be deceived? – Of course I could. Yet what makes me think I’m not deceived? – In regards to this subject, I think some pretty basic and plain understanding of Jesus’s words that His Kingdom is not of this world and the two greatest commandments are loving God and loving our neighbor, leaves me on pretty good footing by declaring that many have been deceived by Christian Nationalism and unjustifiedly have supported a man who in many, many ways is the antithesis of loving God and loving neighbor, and have been deceived by all the false teachers who promote these things.

    Lastly, God calls us to be peacemakers but to also root out sin that is in the church. Jesus, Himself, even said He did not come to make peace, knowing that trouble will be stirred up simply because people choose to follow after Him and His ways. God wants us to strive for peace and unity, but part of that striving requires dealing with and condemning sin, especially when it resides habitually and unrepentantly within the church body. True peace and unity cannot exist where sin abounds unchecked.

  39. Reuben says:

    I have to defend Kevin on this one. I don’t agree with him on just about anything, but this is a thoughtful article. Stop reading seems the appropriate response. There are plenty of sounding boards out there than can reflect your own conclusions.

  40. Josh says:

    Rob – much respect for being consistent with your convictions. Almost all of my politically conservative friends convictions have shifted as the party (and now one candidate) has shifted. I disagree with you heavily on the politics, but nothing but respect for what you wrote above.

    I am convinced that Trump will win the presidency in a near land slide. I am now just concerning myself with how to live a nice, peaceful life in that world.

  41. Reuben says:


    “As they, themselves, have taken on the very role they have warned about, it sure starts to look like one big, ironic, cruel, self-fulfilling prophecy.”

    That statement stands out to me. Good stuff.

  42. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Reuben, even as you disagree with me on just about anything. 😉

  43. Tired of the drama says:


    Considering the amount of hateful words all too often allowed by you on this site, your response is very informative.

    Become a peace maker!

    That is my constructive comment.

  44. Josh says:

    Tired. Pull my finger.

  45. Reuben says:

    Been reading this blog for a long long time, even when I was a Calvary Chapel guy and thought Michael was a divisive fool. I don’t see hateful here. Bias? Sure. Hate? No. Just people who choose to interpret it as such.

  46. Josh says:

    People are terrified of differing opinions.

  47. Kevin H says:

    Maybe they’re just terrified of what could happen if they pull your finger.

  48. Josh says:

    That’s a justified fear.

  49. Michael says:


    Kevin, Duane, and myself go way out of our way to avoid “hateful” words….or aim them where they are richly deserved.

    If you have examples, we can discuss them.

  50. Rob Murphy says:

    Kevin – I’m not totally dialed in to the congressional candidates in other locations, but could you clarify – I do remember Bob Casey Sr back in ’92 – and wow, could we draw some parallels about Clinton being the Trump of the early 90s – where Evangelicals looked the other way on all his scandals and debauchery because “it’s the economy, stupid”.
    Back on topic with the Caseys, could you clarify two things:
    1. Was he (Bob Sr) fully pro-life or was he taken off his speaking role @ the DN Convention in ’92 because he wasn’t “Pro-Choice” *enough*. I thought I remembered that he wasn’t Pro Life in the ‘no abortions at all’ sense but was a ‘moderate’ about abortion, touting the line ‘they should be safe, legal, and rare’. I could be completely mistaken, I hope I’m asking in a means that promotes discussion.

    2. Are you personally comfortable with a ‘moderate’ stance on abortions? Do you have a conviction that a sperm and an egg aren’t viable life until a certain point?

    If Casey Sr is/was indeed purely Pro Life, from my perspective, what a sad turn that his family legacy has compromised to be ‘moderate’ on the issue of life.
    In my way of thinking, it’s a bit like saying ‘we’re not like those radical Molech worshipers who do human sacrifices all year round. we’re only okay with offering human sacrifices when it’s reasonable and of economic benefit, like when it’s time to harvest crops.’

    In a crass way, I guess I’m asking, how big of a stack of dead babies is “too big”?

    The ‘lesser of two evils’ is prevalent in every party, and maybe that’s why we only get to choose from evil. God said in the OT that his people were clamoring for less than Him so He gave them less than Him in leaders and boy, were they awful.
    I want to clamor for Him.

  51. Kevin H says:


    1. Casey Sr. was always fully pro-life.

    2. I am not comfortable with a moderate position on abortion, but it is still obviously better than a full-blown abortion rights position. I personally believe that life begins at conception, as science pretty much tells us it does. Being that God doesn’t explicitly tell us exactly when He confers a soul upon that life and sees it as a person, although He leaves us some clues, I then believe we are playing with fire and trying to act as God ourselves by trying to place a timeline on when it is okay or not to end a life. Therefore, we ought not to play such a game and instead treat that life as fully human at conception.

    But I am also not a single issue voter. While a candidate’s position on abortion weighs heavily in my thinking, I do believe there are plenty of other issues which reflect upon human dignity and God’s care of people that should be considered, too.

    One dead baby is a stack too high, but so is one migrant who was denied a fair and compassionate chance to flee from horrid conditions is also a stack too high.

  52. Rob Murphy says:

    Thank you, Kevin, I had not correctly remembered Casey Sr’s position and it’s important for me to be accurate with his / our shared value and conviction.

  53. Rob Murphy says:

    Better said, I was wrong about Casey Sr and I am glad to be corrected, will you please forgive my error and thank you!

  54. Kevin H says:


    There’s no need to apologize as you had already stated this was something you think you remembered but weren’t sure about and you made no certain declarations but rather asked for verification. But in whatever error your memory caused you, I certainly forgive you.

    Your humility is much appreciated and I applaud you for it.

  55. Captain Kevin says:

    It’s ironic that someone who is tired of drama seems to bring drama into the room, in the name of peacemaking no less.

    With that exception, I appreciate the civil discussion you all are bringing to the table.

  56. The New Victor says:

    November 5th is going to be another January 6th by either side. I wish the pubs had another candidate. Way to guarantee a Harris presidency, hope they’re happy. Way to kick against the pricks or goads.

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