Things I Think

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190 Responses

  1. Stephen says:

    It’s hard to discuss anything when anecdotes have more influence and power than facts.

    And, that “facts” these days seem less about true facts but rather the whole relativism of “what’s true for you isn’t necessary true for me,” way of thinking that pervades the world…Especially the internet.

  2. Dan from Georgia says:

    Facebook – where you can break the 9th commandment and no one notices.

    Good thoughts today Michael!

  3. Dallas says:

    I would generally agree with #2 but it rings kind of hollow when one of those cartoon characters occupies the White House…

  4. Babylon's Dread says:

    I always look forward to the TIT. It is my favorite of the postings.

    My favorite unposted thought was about how Madonna’s inclinations about the White House and her thoughts about currying votes for Hillary were usages of the same word about things she didn’t seem to intend doing but loved talking about.

    Then I kept thinking about MLK and his insistence that the white man and the black man be reconciled through their conflict and wondering how reconciliation could ever be possible between opposing forces in our culture just now.

    Anyway thanks for the Monday revival

  5. Xenia says:

    I wasn’t able to participate in any marches Saturday. Along with the Women’s March, there were also pro-life marches happening around the country. If transportation had permitted me to get around better, I would have partidipated in both.

    A relative is harshly criticizing the Women’s March on FB. She isn’t even making the slightest attempt to understand the marchers’ concerns. She’s very upset that they littered. She speaks (rightly) that many (most) of them are pro-abortion. Yet I still would have walked with them because of the over-riding issues.

    It’s not like I agree with most of what the pro-life people have to say. I agree with them on a few narrow issues but not everything. After all, these are the people who elected Trump. Yet I would have marched to save babies, not that I think it would have any.

    I would have to turn a deaf ear and blind eye to most of what both groups have to say.

    God saw it in his wisdom that I miss both events.

  6. covered says:

    I agree BD. I don’t recall this country being more divided in my lifetime.

  7. Jean says:

    I think when we who choose to do so march in protest, we should march as citizens of the U.S.A., not as Christians, unless the march is made up of only like minded Christians. Otherwise, the unaware and/or unchurched public could easily get the impression that Christians share common opinions with some of the wackos who marched last weekend. For example, I hope Christian women would never dress up like vaginas to protest pro-choice views. But, just so I’m not misunderstood, as citizens, if we want to protest discrimination with anyone else, I think that is okay so long as we are doing so as citizens in defense of the U.S. Constitution.

  8. Xenia says:

    Well, since everything I do I do as a Christian, I think I’d better put my pink hat away.

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    All of the ills and injustices that the Women’s March were highlighting were around for the 8 years of Obama and totally unaddressed. Where were the 3 million women in those days? Why was there not a march during the last month of the Obama term to protest his lack of action?

    No, this was not organized to address women’s issues, and yes the women were duped, – this was 100% to discredit the Trump presidency — up to and including all the vagina hats being worn at all the marches.

  10. filbertz says:

    some of us didn’t vote for either party/candidate for president…and we’re feeling like no one is our compatriots. The mockery of the ‘other’ side by both must stop before any constructive ‘listening’ can take place. Until then, the divide will only widen with each insult and offense.

  11. filbertz says:

    …and yes, I did vote for president.

  12. Stephen says:

    And the women’s March was also to draw a line to say that you must be pro-abortion to be Pro woman.

  13. Michael says:

    I just finished our podcast for the week and I’ll repeat what I said there here.
    During the presidential campaign Trump was drawing huge numbers of people to his rallies.
    The opposition kept saying that numbers don’t matter…until those numbers put him in the White House.

    Saturday we had huge marches all over the country and now the other side is saying the numbers don’t matter.

    At some point, we need to recognize that numbers do matter and find ways to bring these sides together that we can live in a peaceful, civil, society…

  14. Babylon's Dread says:

    I disagree Jean

    I think we are wedged into this idea that we are Christians in one role and citizens in another. that we might as well wear a vagina suit as a citizen suit. They are both obfuscations to the truth.

    Hard for me to see that kind of dichotomy playing out in first century Jerusalem. Hey Jesus, me and the sons of thunder are going over to Herod’s jail and protest John’s imprisonment. You and the boys can handle the clean up from the pot luck but we have to go do our civic duty. We hear Judas has registered as a zealot and has a couple of blades but he will lock them up before the crucifixion.

    I am sorry. The kingdom of God has to be in here somewhere. I do not see it dressed as a Pachyderm or a jackass. This duality of selves may have a reformation root but it does not seem to have a kingdom seed.

  15. Michael says:

    Like Xenia, I can’t separate my faith from anything I do…I can’t fathom such.

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “and find ways to bring these sides together that we can live in a peaceful, civil, society…”

    we do live in a peaceful, civil society. Where do you not see this? You need to get out of your house. Folks from both sides, returned to their homes over the weekend and went to work and school and are living with their neighbors.

    In my office I think 4 of the women and 2 of the guys went on local marches (there are only 18 of us here) – no one has thrown a brick or bottle at each other – they told their stories etc and now we are back working for our common cause — to make a buck so we can feed, cloth and house our families.

    Does anyone here have stories of disruption at work today?

  17. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I know of too many families and churches and too many relationships that have been divided by our political climate.

    Far worse, I deal with the trickle down to the middle school level everyday…but that’s a story for another time.

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    covered said – “I agree BD. I don’t recall this country being more divided in my lifetime.”

    Well I guess I don’t know how old covered is but Babs should know better. The civil rights issues and Jim Crow laws of the 50’s and the anti war, not only protests but violence – far, and I mean far outdistances what we see today. People are fooled into thinking this is a big deal because of social media — but it’s not.

    Image if FB was around in the lynching days and the memes surrounding that — 😉

  19. Michael says:

    “The civil rights issues and Jim Crow laws of the 50’s and the anti war, not only protests but violence – far, and I mean far outdistances what we see today.”

    That didn’t happen overnight…it was the culmination of years of war and discrimination.

    You will not convince me that we’re not headed to someplace similar or worse…social media is the powder keg that may blow us all up.

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I know of too many families and churches and too many relationships that have been divided by our political climate.” — and I will bet they were divided by previous election cycles also.

  21. Jean says:

    Let me clarify my #7:

    Let’s take the building of a wall along the southern boarder. The Bible says: (1) love you neighbor as yourself; and (2) God has given us government to curb evil. But the Bible doesn’t say build a wall or don’t build a wall. A Christian is free in Christ to live in his/her vocations as citizen, husband, parent, etc.

    Two Christians could come to two diametrically opposed opinions on building a wall, and if done in faith, neither from a Christian perspective would be wrong. (Remember also: Whatever is not of faith, is sin.) Therefore, Christians should be able to disagree about the wall without breaking communion, because the Bible doesn’t prescribe the answer.

    So, when it comes to political activism regarding the wall, I don’t think we should carry signs that say: “Christians for a wall” or “Christians against the wall”, because it is a poor witness for Jesus and enlists him in our temporal disputes (which could get one into hot water with the 2nd commandment). On the other hand, as Republicans, Democrats or libertarians, we could certainly protest our political view (always remembering that our politics are subordinate to our Christianity).

    Do you see the difference?

  22. Michael says:

    Jean,

    No fair using the wall against me. 🙂

    You make a very good point…

  23. Babylon's Dread says:

    @18 MLD I do know better and didn’t say that. However, I would have said that I have not seen the country this divided since the 60s.

    This is a big deal … and it could blow in violence pretty easily.

  24. Michael says:

    BD,

    In light of your #23…what is the responsibility of the Christian and in particular the clergy in addressing this divide?

  25. Babylon's Dread says:

    Read MLK Jr he helps us a great deal on the matter of bringing our faith to bear on our social politics. I think if you protest the wall you should be able to make a kingdom case for it and do it gladly for Christ’s sake.

    King’s genius was his willingness to suffer violence rather than do it.

    His kin will revive again

  26. Babylon's Dread says:

    Michael,

    I am addressing it weekly these days.

    I am pressing for kingdom ethos

    I am pressing for ending the us/them

    I am pressing for listening to the groaning of the crowds both left and right

    I am pressing for kingdom people to do kingdom things in small ways

    I am pressing for speaking life not death, reconciliation not division and attempting to build bridges not walls.

  27. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “You will not convince me that we’re not headed to someplace similar or worse…”

    We have been on this path long before social media. Going back over 40 yrs when Watergate said that we could not trust over government or each other. Big turning point that today is coming to a head — just like Jim Crow and wars grew to snowball porportions.

    But to say we have not seen such divisions in our lifetime — well, you would have to be the age of my grand children. Anyone remember 3 assassinations in the 60s and the 2 attempts on Gerald Ford in the mid 70s? Thhat is pretty nasty stuff we went through.

  28. Babylon's Dread says:

    Michael,

    I am also constantly struggling with my own partisanship that leaks and erupts

  29. Michael says:

    BD @ #26 & #28… well said…know that you are welcome to share ways to facilitate all of that here.

  30. Michael says:

    MLD,

    We have been through some nasty stuff…which proves we are capable of that and worse.
    Some of us fear that is the direction this is headed…

  31. London says:

    Xenia,
    I don’t think the term “pro abortion” is helpful. I think it is used to villianize pro choice folks.
    People aren’t typical marching because the like abortion. They like the fact that they have that choice legally.

  32. Jean says:

    “I think if you protest the wall you should be able to make a kingdom case for it and do it gladly for Christ’s sake.”

    I don’t disagree with this statement. Every theologian must make his case for his/her interpretation of Scripture, regardless of the issue. But again, this is an internal debate within the Church. Out on the street, people exercise their conscience.

    But, lest we fall back into pre-reformation Roman Catholicism, we dare not speak for Christ where He has not spoken.

  33. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael,
    I think the point I am making is that we have always been a divided country and that we have always drawn our lines deep in the sand. My reading has always been in the past – looking at powerful past political and civil characters and at political histories.

    What does the Bible say? Nothing new under the sun?
    Anti communism days of McCarthyism – even something like Prohibition and the anti Drinking crusades of the churches blew things a up to where a constitutional amendment had to be put in place and repealed.
    The violent divisions between western states and the eastern establishment (although most here have not studied it) the fight over silver almost caused a division of our nation – even after the civil war. and that does not even bring into the picture of the civil war itself.

    We do not have kingdom living – and we will not, this side of heaven – what we have is Garden living and we are either Cain or Abel. – Facebook and Twitter just shine the light on this truth.

  34. London says:

    Stephan,
    Why not just take women at their word for why they marched instead of trying to make your opinion the truth about it?

  35. Stephen says:

    London,

    The rally/March specifically kicked out women from groups who were pro-life and going to march alongside the pro-abortion demonstrators.

    They stated it was an error to allow this in the first place.

    Seeing that’s the case, they have now, effectively, said you cannot be pro-life and support women’s rights. Thus onrUST be pro-abortion to be “pro-woman)

    (I call it pro-abortion because in either case the woman has a choice to keep the child, or a choice to abort the pregnancy).

  36. Babylon's Dread says:

    London

    I take them at their word. They marched in anti-Trump solidarity. But most of the noise that came through the media was abortion on demand.

  37. John 20:29 says:

    #4 – MLD, here’s an amen to all four points that you made…

    a divided country? i was raised in a household where racial prejudice was a sin, but i lived in a town where the dark skinned folk had to be out of town by sundown and if you were black and had spent the day working as a domestic, you’d better not miss the last bus to L.A; the police would pick you up and let you out at the city limits down on Los Feliz Blvd.
    THAT was a divided country – one of our worst sins was not slavery, but how the freed slaves were treated for decades… they bought and paid for their piece of the U.S.A.

    that said, it seems to me now that there is an undercurrent of effort to divide this nation today along any lines that can be exploited – gender, race, income … whatever, will stir up discontent and division – i think we all need to wake up and get on the same page – i’m not out to destroy you or yours and i seriously doubt that is your goal either…
    finding our strength being united against each other? what kind of strength is that?

    now i’ll go read everyone else’s thoughts, too 🙂

  38. Xenia says:

    Well then London, you are not someone I am trying to “help.”

    I will stick with the term “pro-abortion” because that is what they are fighting for, the right to abort children. I will not soften it by calling it “pro-choice.”

    To those who want to complain that some marchers were vulgar: We kept trying to tell you your beloved candidate was vulgar but you all said it didn’t matter. For the past year you told us to vote for this guy because his vulgarities didn’t matter.

  39. Duane Arnold says:

    I lived through the 60s, Civil Rights (13 stitches from a Klansman to prove it), Vietnam, Watergate, etc.
    I am more worried and depressed than ever before. I believe we are in a new landscape here. People are frightened and people are angry… on both sides. This new eruption of nationalism and its endorsement by the evangelical right is more than disturbing. I see too many abandoning the values of the Gospel – compassion, gentleness, and the like – to worship a new idol of “will to power”.
    There are many of us in that narrow space between the two sides. Christian conscience places us there, but I am concerned for the future…

  40. Xenia says:

    Maybe if MLD lived in my neighborhood instead of his, he might see things a little differently.

  41. Xenia says:

    There are many of us in that narrow space between the two sides<<<<

    Yes.

  42. Michael says:

    “There are many of us in that narrow space between the two sides.”

    Yes…and this is such an excellent description of how we feel…

  43. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia,
    “Maybe if MLD lived in my neighborhood instead of his, he might see things a little differently.”

    How is that even a valid statement in this conversation? Does it work just as effectively if I said – “Maybe if Xenia lived in my neighborhood instead of hers, she might see things a little differently.?

  44. Xenia says:

    MLD, yes, if I lived in your neighborhood I might see things differently.

    Thank God I live where I live.

  45. Xenia says:

    See, I can irritate people from all points of view!

    Narrow space for sure.

  46. John 20:29 says:

    it is a given that Trump was exposed as a vulgar tongued “one of the boys,” and his libido wasn’t governed by the high moral ground either as far as we can tell – not a God fearing man for sure, but….
    what i don’t understand is why Bill Clinton, JFK, and many, many others got/get a pass… why has it now suddenly become necessary to target this one man as if he were an anomaly?

    someone, maybe it was back up this thread, asked the question, “why march now?”
    is it to imitate the gangster who, to make his point, opens his coat to reveal the revolver? how did that old chant go, “we’re here, we’re strong, we’re feminists, ….?” my much more liberal daughter and i have been scratching our heads over this angst: what is the point? why?

  47. Xenia says:

    What concerns me:

    1. I have a huge contingent of Mexican family members. ***They are scared.*** Even if they are here legally (and I have never asked them), they fear discrimination from people who now feel emboldened to act on their prejudices.

    2. I am concerned that many of the advances made to protect the environment will be rolled back. I believe companies like Monsanto will get the green light.

    3. I fear the coarsening of daily discourse.

    4. I don’t know who to believe anymore. I read something alarming last night…. is it true? Who knows!

  48. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia – I wouldn’t mind living in a more affluent area of CA – someplace like the Monterrey area – but I am down here in SoCal with the working people. 😉

  49. Xenia says:

    I don’t live in Monterey (That’s with one “R.) I live in the town next door with all the waiters and gardeners.

  50. London says:

    I guess the men who did not participate know more about what was happening than the people who did.

  51. Xenia says:

    I think Trumpism must be resisted. If the only people who will come out in mass to protest this guy are vulgar women, then that’s what it’s come down to.

  52. London says:

    This article from sojourner is a good example of one Christian woman’s reason for marching.
    Maybe someone will find it helpful.

    https://sojo.net/articles/reader-stories/i-marched-because-so-many-are-still-asking-why

  53. London says:

    I don’t know about “vulgar women”. I think most women I saw and heard using “vulgar” terms were simply parroting back what Trump said. using the word and the images of female reproductive organs was just a fun way to mock him and those like him.

  54. Dallas says:

    “I fear the coarsening of daily discourse.”

    For example, the last two times I have seen a certain family member he has made a point of making the same racist Obama joke to my not yet 2 year old daughter. Sure, she has no idea what he is talking about but I’m going to agree with Aziz Ansari on this one, please go back to pretending you’re not racist.

  55. Stephen says:

    I honestly don’t even know where to begin with that article.

    But instead of denying what I said iny response, the deflection of the issue ensued via ad hominem.

  56. Michael says:

    I fear for the environment, especially as it relates to National Parks and federal lands.
    I fear for our Hispanic brethren…our school is about 40% Hispanic and there has already been backlash and discrimination against many kids.
    I fear for the end of programs that help the most vulnerable among us.
    I fear that prejudice will become acceptable again.
    I fear a further conflation of faith and nationalism.

    Having said all that and fearing a coarsening of civil interaction…I wonder why the left isn’t appalled at the messages spewed out by rap music and popular culture as well.

  57. Stephen says:

    Michael…

    Because it’s a white, non-entertainer.

    I mean Obamas said Beyonce and Jay-Z were good role models.

    If we put trumps sexist and/or racist words to a good beat, they would be no different than “Top 10” songs.

  58. Stephen says:

    https://sojo.net/articles/reader-stories/i-marched-because-so-many-are-still-asking-why

    I’m sorry…But…Can someone tell me where Tamar and Ruth needed to give sex before they got Justice?

    Tamar…In her way of trapping Judah…Well, it’s a stretch to make that connection.

    But Ruth?

    That lady has some screwy hermaneutics.

  59. Stephen says:

    And…Am I the only one a bubble to not have heard that it’s all Eve’s fault?

    The Bible puts responsibility on Adam.

    Anyone else ever heard that one?

  60. Michael says:

    Stephen,

    The issue is that a lot of people had legitimate reasons, godly reasons, for participating the marches.

    I know many who did and I stand with them and their concerns.

  61. Stephen says:

    Michael,

    I’m not sure which post you’re referring to…But I take it’s about the article.

    Wouldn’t you agree that takng scripture out of context to justify participation in a
    movement/purpose is wrong? How is it Godly?

  62. Michael says:

    Stephen,

    It’s not about the article, it’s about broad brushing everyone who marched as being necessarily pro choice.

    I prefer to accept the word of the many women who marched and were pro life to have their reasons for doing so.

    As to the article, I would have to dig a lot deeper into how she is interpreting the book of Ruth…I would not dismiss it out of hand.

  63. Eric says:

    One piece of good news is that the abortion rate in the US has been gradually dropping since 1980. May it continue, regardless of who governs. (I don’t have equivalent stats for my country).

    Interestingly, the steepest decline has happened over the Obama years. Strangely I don’t see that fact celebrated anywhere!

    Here’s a view from an Aussie Christian in California:
    http://mikefrost.net/homepage/im-pro-life-i-marched/

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So that I am on record, I have no issue that the marches took place. I love both civil disturbances and a bit of old fashion anarchy once in a while. I have been so disappointed over the past 40 years at the demise if legitimate but powerful protest activity that is now non existent at our institutions of higher learning.

    My mother participated in the march – the first time she has ever gotten off her butt to do anything in the social / civics realm – but she was honest enough at 89 to limit her concern to she hates Trump.

    Honesty requires that people just state up front and carry a sign that says I hate Trump. Muxch of our protesting back in the day (and I am sure Duane was right there with me) was that we hated Nixon.

  65. Michael says:

    Eric,

    It would behoove us to find out why the abortion rate is the lowest it’s been since Roe v. Wade…

  66. em ... again says:

    i read London’s link @ 52… it seems this Christian woman marched because women throughout the history of the Bible were marginalized and exploited?
    she concluded, “I marched so my sons would know that men and women are meant to be co-creators, partners, equals in life, so that God is fully revealed in us.”
    well… okay… although i see her point, i still don’t see the marches as addressing it…
    but, like those suffragettes, she and her sisters proved we are a force to be reckoned with when we want to be…

    this world will always have hooligans, no matter the color of their skin, who look for an excuse to abuse someone they perceive as weaker or thwarting them, and many of the abuses that seem to concern the majority today as looming threats have always been there – continuing under the radar…
    Xenia mentioned Monsanto? those chemical companies have worked their mischief right along, so maybe bringing it out in open a little more is a good thing (farmers up here sing their praises, BTW) – like leaven of the Bible (sorry ’bout the out of context use of Scripture), manipulating chemistry is an insidious threat to the balance of nature as God designed it – it likely will crop up working unexpected damage… like a lot of our “advances” of the modern world

    reading the honest thoughts here, i guess, so far my take away is that what all fear is a new administration of white, power hungry anglo-saxon males run amuck?

  67. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I have no doubt that there is a hatred for Trump like there was a hatred for Nixon.

    That’s also way too simplistic an explanation.

    People had reasons for hating Nixon…and they have reasons now for hating Trump.

    I would submit that it is the reason under the hate that compels people to march…

  68. Steve Wright says:

    Trump signed 3 executive orders today. One despised by Republicans and favored by Democrats, one despised by Democrats and favored by Republicans, and one despised by the Establishment of both parties (but favored by the American people).

    Trump had 3 major meetings today. One with a large variety of CEOs, managers of some of our largest companies from old line manufacturing to Tesla’s Elon Musk. One meeting with a variety of union labor leaders, representing thousands of workers from across the country. The third meeting with a variety of House and Senate leaders from both the Republican and Democrat side.

    Some are saying they can’t remember the last time they were asked to the White House to discuss the future of the country.

    Anyone who is truly independent and wanting unity for the nation would have much to cheer about in what is effectively working day one in office. Anyone who is hyper partisan will never be pleased with anything that happens in the next 4 years if you can’t be encouraged by today.

  69. Stephen says:

    Fear.

    Fear of losing all that was gained over past years. It’s understandable…But imho slightly presumptive.

    Look, I have a daughter who, when older, will be taught (by me) to rip genitals off if
    anyone who molests/assaults her. I fear for the world she will grow up in.

    But marching around inside hat shaped like a “va-jay-jay” is to be taken seriously? If I put fuzzy dice on my head and marched around for male rights (hypothetically, of course), would anyone take me seriously?

  70. Steve Wright says:

    As an aside, as to division, as an 80s youth, the division and hatred of Reagan in the pop culture world was as vicious as anything thrown at Trump. Selective memory leads some to forgetting the albums I had in my library of Reagan with a swastika on his forehead too, Genesis MTV videos where a senile Reagan stupidly nukes the world. Etc. and so forth.

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Protesting Nixon was after the fact – protesting Trump was before he has done anything – good or bad.

    The difference today is that a protest can be put together through social media – like a flash mob. Even the curious just show up.
    Protests in my day were spontaneous or actual word of mouth.

    We will see how serious the protest march is taken later this week when the March for Life takes place. Let’s see if it gets the same coverage and commentary – along with praise for all of those who participate taking part in their first amendment right – -although I have a feeling it will be met with a violent hate that this weeks march did not experience.

    People may have made fun of this march with funny FB memes – but just watch what will come out of this one.

  72. Michael says:

    “But marching around inside hat shaped like a “va-jay-jay” is to be taken seriously? ”

    This is exactly what I’m talking about when I write of using the worst examples of a group to caricature the whole.

    Quite literally, millions of people marched without such…

  73. London says:

    Em,
    Sometimes people need to get stuff off their chest, to speak their minds and to hear what other people are thinking.
    That’s what the march was and what it accomplished is yet to be seen.

    You are trying to quantitatively analyze something that was experiential and not data driven.

  74. Stephen says:

    And I still stand by my…Fearful interpretation…That, in lieu of the fear of rights bring taken away (a rightful fear, but which includes abortion)…Feminism is soon to be defined (by definition) as being pro-abortion seeing as that’s the legal right most threatened (as far as feminists are concerned).

    And if a woman is pro-life, she will soon be not seen as “pro-woman rights”

  75. Steve Wright says:

    I saw a sea of pink hats and every one of them were part of a larger, planned organization called the P*ssyhat Project. There is even reporting they were selling them on planes to DC for people who didn’t have one yet for Pete’s sake.

    They may have not gone to the extreme that some did in full costume, but it is flat out incorrect to say that a massive number of the DC march was not deliberately making a “P*ssy” statement in their protest.

  76. Duane Arnold says:

    MLD
    I didn’t particularly like Nixon, but I did not hate him. I hated the war, which I thought unjust and because friends died…

  77. London says:

    The hats were a funny way to stay warm and to make fun of Trump using the word “pussy” in the way he did.

    It makes me laugh that people are more upset that women wore those hats, with cat ears by the way, than with him using the word in the first place.

  78. Michael says:

    Steve,

    The hats had cat ears…in response to one of the Presidents own statements.

    That’s a far cry from the pictures we saw of people dressed up as vaginas…

  79. Stephen says:

    Ummm…How long ago did he say that? I forget.

  80. Xenia says:

    It makes me laugh that people are more upset that women wore those hats, with cat ears by the way, than with him using the word in the first place.<<<

    Exactly.

    All last year we were told to ignore Trump's vulgarities because we were not electing a pastor, etc.

    But the vulgarities of a small percentage of women…. this must not be ignored!

  81. Stephen says:

    I can’t believe I’m going to say this but I believe MLD has a good point. Let’s see how the media coverage (and bias) goes for the pro-life March.

  82. Scooter Jones says:

    I must admit, Melania Trump looked absolutely beautiful in that blue dress she wore for the inauguration, don’t you think? 😉

  83. Steve Wright says:

    I’m with MLD by the way. I’m all for the marches. I hope Ashley Judd and Madonna give a speech every day for that matter.

    I do think it is a historic joke to call it a Women’s March – given the massive numbers of women in America (as seen in social media) that absolutely wanted nothing to do with the event and had nothing but criticism to heap upon it. I spent some of my day scrolling through the largest news threads I could find on facebook to see how many of the criticisms were coming from women (beside the the many females in my own circle of friends). Of course, Michael Moore explained all those women are victims suffering years of abuse from our culture and thus unable to understand why they should despise Trump. So at least we have a good medical analysis of the problem from an impeccable expert.

    Can you imagine if the internet existed in 1963, thousands and thousands of blacks from all over the country going online to denounce MLK and the March on Washington. Saying how embarrassed and disgusted they were with the March, and how in no way did King and the other participants represent them. Public denouncing, using their own names and faces, to all their social world. Not a chance. Because 1963 was actually about rights then and there – not a pseudo-prophetic fear of what MIGHT happen some day, some way.

    I’m with MLD (again) – it’s an anti-Trump march. So be it. Honesty is a big part of the journey.

    Got to run.

  84. london says:

    Do you guys know the term “mansplaining”?
    It’s when a woman says something then a man comes right behind her to explain what she “actually” meant.

    It’s what some of the guys on this thread have been. Millions of Women have given very specific reasons why they marched.( You can find examples all across the Internet under the hashtag #whyimarch or under articles of the same name. ). Then men come in and say “actually” the reason they marched was ….

    No, the reason they marched is the reason they said they marched!

  85. london says:

    Excuse the typos. I am typing on a small keyboard on phone.

  86. Stephen says:

    ..
    And why exactly was that, again? (Genuine question…Not provoking)

  87. Stephen says:

    So no one knows when it was… How long ago it was that Donald Trump said that word?

  88. Scooter Jones says:

    I posted a link here to the women’s march the other day.

    They outlined very clearly why the march was organized in about 5 or 6 bullet points. What am I missing?

    This was no spontaneous event. It was well thought out and planned for months, which is cool with me.

    Thank God we live in America and not Saudi Arabia.

    Unfortunately, like it or not, Ashley Judd & Madonna’s performances are now what will stick in the minds of middle America and will be used for campaign fodder and money raising in the future.

    They were just as repulsive and vulgar as what they claimed to be protesting against, namely, Trumps past vulgarities.

  89. Duane Arnold says:

    #87 Stephen
    That would have been in 2005 when he was a 58 year old man and able to place his character, or lack thereof, on display…

  90. london says:

    steve, that information is available on Google if you are genuinely curious.

  91. stephen says:

    Believe it or not, I don’t look at every thread and post on this (or any) forum.

    Honestly, you are the first person I’ve aske who actually answered (even if it was, in this case, a “why didn’t you see it befeore? What’s Wong with you?” Kind of thing).

    Very one else I asked either ignored me, declined to answer or simply said “I made history”. Not kidding.

  92. Duane Arnold says:

    #87 Stephen
    I might add, that what he was describing and laughing about is also called “sexual assault”…

  93. london says:

    Stephan,
    Are you talking to me or someone else on your last post? I can not tell who that was directed to.

  94. london says:

    Ah I see I’m getting Stephan and Steve confused.
    Sorry.

  95. stephen says:

    I don’t know about all the perfect people gathered around this place, but I sure said some grow and inappropriate things in my past. Things I’d never dream of saying or even thinking now.

    Guess what happened 12 years ago still reflects ones current beliefs, huh?

    (In case it’s not clear, while I do think it’s very gross and inappropriate, to use it in an argument, and part of a protest, no less, is kind of ludicrous).

  96. stephen says:

    A better word, I think, is “unfair.”

    (Its what I originally thought but words failed to come to mind)

  97. Scooter Jones says:

    One more contribution is this article written by Asra Q. Nomani in the NY Times.

    She asks, “what is the link between Hillary Clinton’s largest donors and the Women’s March? Turns out, it’s quite significant.”

    http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2017/01/20/billionaire-george-soros-has-ties-to-more-than-50-partners-of-the-womens-march-on-washington/

  98. london says:

    Scooter,
    What is the point you’re trying to make? That somehow women in this country have been “duped” into speaking up for themselves?
    That all the millions of people across the world are duped into believing women have rights to speak out against what they see as harmful policies by their leaders?

    You said yesterday that you wouldn’t attend because it was “pro-abortion”. Today your objection to something you did not even participate in is that Hillary Clinton was in some sort of conspiracy against something.

    Again, believe the people who were there about why they marched. Not the analysts who did not.

  99. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I found the woman to tell me the purpose of the march – all the women around her seemed to agree. Not for the faint of heart (which I do not think includes anyone here.- Ashley Judd

  100. em ... again says:

    “duped?” … i think women of good hearts and good intentions were duped … so many men of good hearts and good intentions turned out for rallies a few years back and identified as “Promise Keepers” … at least the umbrella over them was clear and their own and not an admixture of a hundred personal agendas gathered and manipulated by some pretty sorry spokespeople …
    i admit that i may be wrong as, truthfully, it just isn’t processing in my brain which probably is ‘data driven’ as i honestly still can’t process taking to the streets to release anxious emotions in a crowd of people with whom all i have in common is … angst?…
    but then i’m one of those folks who can live for days without human contact – even tho i love people, after a while they give me angst … LOL …
    🙂

  101. Scooter Jones says:

    MLD, that’s what I mean. Ashley Judd & Madonna will be what middle America remembers about the march on Saturday.

    London, you are correct, I would never march in solidarity with people who believe it’s okay to snuff out the life of a precious little child in the womb, no matter all the other “reasons” surrounding the march. I make no apologies.

    In addition, I wonder how some of the fathers and mothers who participate here are going to react when their 12 year old boy comes home from public school and announces he “identifies” as a girl now and wants to change his name from John to Jennifer? And, wants to be dressed as a girl with make-up?

    That is after all, one of the educational demands in the women’s march manifesto.

  102. Michael says:

    This is ridiculous.
    I know London.
    I’ve broken bread with her and I have a pretty good idea what sort of person she is.

    She says that she and her mother went for reasons of their own.
    I know dozens just like her.

    Still, we have to find the worst, most offensive, examples to try to refute her.

    Can we then also describe the Trump rallies as hotbeds of white supremacy and racism because those people were there and supported him?

    Why can’t we give people the respect to see things differently and to act with different motivations than we assume?

  103. Stephen says:

    Yet, whether they agreed to it or not (or whatever the reasons for marching) all marchers are identified with the march and all the “ideology” behind it including pro-abortion, LGBTQ issues, etc (all that stuff on their website).

    As far as the cold hard numbers and claims to attendance hold, every single person who took place in the march supports ALL those issues by association…whether they personally agreed to all of them or not.

  104. Anon says:

    #95

    I don’t know about all the perfect people gathered around this place, but I sure said some grow and inappropriate things in my past. Things I’d never dream of saying or even thinking now.

    Wow.

    Can’t believe I have to say this, but…

    Guess what?

    You’re not the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!

  105. Michael says:

    Stephen,

    If I was in a little better shape I would have joined the march here.

    I didn’t read the march manifesto until today and it would have had no effect on why I was there.

    For many, the ideology that started this event was not a factor.

  106. Stephen says:

    Yet, I’m genuinely curious as to why utilizing something Trump said 12 years ago is still valid to use now as a rallying cry to protest/etc.

    (to be completely honest, this topic is not meant to be an argument: It’s something that no one has yet given me an answer to, to date and I’m actually genuinely trying to get the other point of view on it…you know, trying to do the thing we say we should do: trying to engage the other side to see their point of view/reasons/etc).

  107. Michael says:

    “Yet, I’m genuinely curious as to why utilizing something Trump said 12 years ago is still valid to use now as a rallying cry to protest/etc.”

    It’s not a single comment in isolation.

    It’s part of package of comments over the years on platforms like the Howard Stern show and Playboy magazine.

    It’s part of a package from a man who has boasted of adultery and “rating women” over many years.

    It’s also sexual assault.

  108. Stephen says:

    Anon @104:

    Private citizen vs. professional politician. Politicians are just as bad, if not worse, but they just take more care to not get caught. Goodness gracious, Bill Clinton was caught in debauchery and while there were some wrist slapping that followed, there was nothing like the backlash from something 12 years ago…

  109. Michael says:

    Measuring backlash from an era when social media was in it’s infancy is a fools game.
    Everything is amplified today…

  110. Jean says:

    Stephen,

    Full disclosure, I’m a male. Now, let me break down for you what a lot of women around the country are thinking:

    They are not going to sit back and let a bunch of old white rich dudes tell them what they can and cannot do with their bodies. It’s that simple. Especially a guy who is on the record saying he can grab them by their p****es if and when he feels like it and kiss them whenever he feels like it because he’s famous.

    Today, I read that the GOP has introduced a bill that would declare the beginning of life at fertilization. If this passed and fertilized embryos were given personhood rights, then (1) most forms of birth control could be banned, women impregnated by rape or incest could be forced to carry to term and a woman could be culpable for drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes during pregnancy.

    I’m not saying that smoking or drinking or using birth control is good or bad, but many women are wondering where some of the white rich dudes who have no skin in the game will take their desire to control women.

  111. stephen says:

    Michael,

    Thank you for being the first one to provide a decent argument..as I said, I’ve genuinely asked before elsewhere and was either ignored or slandered.

    Let me say this, though: do you honestly think that if the Bill Clinton thing happened now there would be as much and intense backlash or would it be seen as a “lesser” offense, so to speak, and not gain so much attention?

  112. Michael says:

    In this age everything is amplified and all the Clinton scandals would have much greater gravitas.

  113. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    or it could be that they can do whatever they want with their bodies – and I have no issue with that at all. However they cannot do what they want with someone elses’ body – and that is what is at issue.

    I think it is clear that if the other body is of a different gender, a different DNA and blood type – that probably rules out that it is the woman’s body – so perhaps she can’t do what she wants with that body. But there are a whole host of laws I disagree with and right now this is one and I cannot do anything about it.

    At the same time I sould ignore laws passed by these same guys – who are these old rich white dudes to tell me I have to …. (you fill in the blank)

  114. stephen says:

    Jean,

    I also thank you for the response. It’s taken me some time to consider the depth of the issue from your response,

    So from what I’m seeing you write, the issue isn’t even over the facts of what he said or why, necessarily, but rather it’s more “fuel for the fire,” after a fashion.

    They see this past behavior as indicative of his current values (whether actually true or not at present is not even a consideration). And those (true or not) perceived values threaten their civil rights over what they can and cannot do to/with their bodies.

    Wow…if that’s true, then I can see why (from that standpoint) that to truly advocate “womens rights” one MUST support the “right” to abortion, as I alluded to above (twice, I think).

    (Really trying to stay out of the life/abortion topic, but if I’m understanding it right, it’s so ingrained into what you are saying that it’s impossible not to..almost).

  115. Jean says:

    Stephen,

    It works similar to the gun control debate. The pro gun advocate will not give an inch, for common sense measures, because they don’t trust that the other side will stop there. It’s an all or nothing game.

    Regarding a woman’s right to choose, many women are afraid that if they give an inch, the other side will take a mile. Do you remember the candidate a few years ago who claimed a woman’s body shuts down during rape so that pregnancy from rape doesn’t happen?

  116. stephen says:

    Michael,

    And you (and others, like you, on that side of the issue) see these past events as indicative of current behavior and attitudes despite lack of more current proof?

    Why would it be unfair of someone to say that this criteria for assessment is unfair?

  117. Michael says:

    Stephen,

    His appearances on Stern’s program aren’t that old…and they’re quite offensive.

    Personally, my offense is at his sudden adoption by evangelicals as a “Christian”.
    A man who says he’s never asked for forgiveness isn’t born again.

    Having said that, my issues with Trump have to do with policy,not morality.
    We have had many Presidents whose morality was less than pristine…

  118. Jean says:

    Stephen,
    Do you recall Trump apologizing to the former Mrs. Universe for calling her Ms. Housekeeping? Or the judge with Latina background, or the reporter with the disability? What has Trump done to demonstrate contrition? Why is the burden on Trump’s critics to show he’s still an a****le?

  119. stephen says:

    Jean,

    I was out of the country for many years so I missed a lot of the “fun details” like the one you refer to.

    So…to answer your question: nope. I don’t remember.

    (You had to bring up gun control, didn’t you? Lol. But it is a good illustration. Must…resist…urge…to…debate…:P ).

  120. stephen says:

    Michael,

    I do agree with your thought about his “adoption.”

    I’ve never thought for a moment that he was “Gods gift” to us…I’ve never said “thank God for Trump,” etc. I actually shake my head in a “what the heck” moment when people say that.

    IMHO, we had two horrible choices for candidates.

  121. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    But none of that speaks to his capabilities to run the country.

    Jimmy Carter fits all the qualities we would like to see in a president and he was a disaster.

    So we have a scoundrel as president – so what if he can do the job?

  122. London says:

    Michael at 102,
    Thanks for sticking up for me. I don’t feel disrespected in this conversation.
    I expected their to be people making the kinds of comments I see here and I’m fine with that.

    Scooter, I never asked you to apologize. Your reasons for not going to the march as just as valid and acceptable as the reasons that anyone did go to the march. We all have the right to do what we please in regard to these types of events.

  123. stephen says:

    Jean,

    Because “burden of proof” falls on the prosecution rather than the defendant in our legal system…

    he apologized, did he not? (Whether genuine or not is certainly debatable).

    (Ok, I’m off for the night.)

  124. Jean says:

    “he apologized, did he not? (Whether genuine or not is certainly debatable).”

    No, he did not.

  125. London says:

    Jean,
    What you say is true, but it is incomplete. People, not just women, marched for all kinds of reasons, not just whether or not abortion should be legal or not. Most women are much more complex than that 😉

    One major concern at the march I attended was that Betsy Devos is never confirmed as Sec. of Education. She and Jeff Sessions were both mentioned by people in the crowd near me, but her name came up MANY more times. People will fight for the future of their children’s education.

    There is no way someone with no educational experience should be in that position and for Trump to have even suggested her for that role shows how little he understands or cares about public education in this country.

    I also saw quite a few people marching for environmental protections that Trump seems dead set on getting rid of in his administration. Many protestors held signs about the environmental concerns they had.

    Many, many stories that had nothing to do with reproductive rights.

  126. John 20:29 says:

    well, as i read this thread, for me it seems to sum up that everyone marched because they are against Trump, but they did so for many different reasons… so wasn’t it really an anti-Trump march?
    against abortion, against environmental deregulations, against misogyny, against repeal of Obama care etc… let’s see that’s 5 causes and divide 100,000 equally gives 20,000 per cause… impressive, but not nearly as impressive as 1,000,000 marching against Trump

    p.s. if anyone felt that London was disrespected here, let me be one to say i respect her for many things that i’ve discovered about the woman as she’s posted here over time… even if i still can’t understand this march 🙂

  127. London says:

    Em, you are still using a math brain to try to explain an non math experience. If you google “why i march” you will find LOADS of people using their own words to explain it. Just read it, don’t analyze it 😉

    I feel compelled to share the story that was on our local news just now.
    A city councilman from a town in NM wrote on his own FB page that women had rights. They have the right to cook and clean. They should stop bitching/complaining because it was time for football and if they didn’t they had the right to be slapped.

    When interviewed by the news he was asked if he thought what he said was inappropriate. His response was “was it? I don’t know what is inappropriate for an elected official any more. Donald Trump is always tweeting stuff….” then he went on to talk about his rights to post what he wants, it was a joke etc. NO remorse, no sense at all that what he said was wrong in any way whatsoever.

    After the interview he went on FB and boasted that he’d been interviewed by the station and put up a laugh till you cry emoji.

    To him, talking about women being slapped was a joke.

    This is the type of “leadership” that Trump’s character is breeding.

    And it’s only day 3

  128. Steve Wright says:

    Just read the transgender community is upset that the March was too focused on vaginas and especially bothered about how the p*ssy hats had become the de facto unofficial merchandise of the whole event. The whole thing was too cisgender.

    Well, at least I was not the only one to notice the emphasis on the female body part.

  129. brian says:

    I was involved in a few of the “protests” mainly because funding to people with disabilities is going to get slashed down to the bone again. It always is one of the first to get it. There will not be much of a ruckus about it and maybe a few marches which might gain a yawn or two. When the senior cuts happen there will be much more of an outcry. My frustration is simple, President Trump is president so how do we deal with this group within their own paradigm. I know I have written several emails, made phone calls faxes etc. Something I do on a regular basis. It does have some effect, especially at the local level. I do grow tired of being sworn at mocked and the occasional threat. I am always polite and really try to understand the other side. For example, if Pres. Trump wants accolades and praises fine, as long as he truly listens to the other side express their view. I have often had to couch such “concerns” or “complaints” when dealing with faith communities in apologies, begging, more apologies, compliments, confession my sin, state the problem, then more apologies, begging compliments, and confessions of my sin. It was not very effective in said faith communities.

    I was thinking of starting a “human” march. I vehemently disagree with some of the theological and even epistemological underpinnings of this video, but it does give some perspective.

    https://youtu.be/wupToqz1e2g

    I hope you all have a blessed Tuesday.

  130. Stephen says:

    Now now, Jean..

    We’ve left the topic in question methinks..Mostly my fault for letting it get that far.

    To be frank, I wasn’t looking to debate or argue the issue. It was purely an attempt to understand one (or maybe two) parts of the issue.

  131. Scooter Jones says:

    “The whole thing was too cisgender.”

    What the heck is cisgender?

  132. Anne says:

    First off, as someone who has been involved at many different levels of activism, protesting etc, both grassroots and more traditional political levels, local & national the whole Geogre Soros conspiracy stuff makes us LOL as well as wish someone would let us know how to sign up for these paid gigs.
    However, I digress….
    To those whom are confused or surprised about why millions of people showed up to protest this weekend. . this is the best, comprehensive explanation I have found.

    “Women are marching because our children deserve a secretary of education that cares about education.
    Women are marching because our family and friends deserve healthcare. Did you know that before the ACA, newborns in the NICU would hit their lifetime caps on health insurance coverage? That’s right, Babies who had never felt the sun on their skin could no longer get health insurance.

    Women are marching because domestic violence crisis centers and after school programs deserve funding.

    Women are marching because our citizens have the RIGHT to clean air, clean water, and national parks.

    Women are marching because we believe the children protected by the DREAM act deserve to be here and they should absolutely live with their parents, not in orphanages and foster homes.

    Women are marching because we have the right to: it’s the FIRST AMENDMENT (not the second or third, it’s number one). We have the right to and the Patriotic Duty to protest when we see the government not adhering to ITS duty to govern FOR the people.

    We are marching because we are entitled to make our own decisions for our bodies, our families and our careers.

    We are marching because we don’t want our sons and daughters to believe that women should be objectified by our leaders.

    We are marching because we have the right to an honest, fair, and transparent government who protects EVERY man, woman, and child- despite their faith, sexual preference, and station in life- with dignity, respect, and humanity.

    Saying that we’re whining, throwing temper tantrums, or that we’re immature, or that we need to get over it will not stop us. It will not stop us from fighting for you. And we are fighting for you because you deserve these rights too.

    We’re not marching because Trump won. We’re marching because we are not going to give up the rights we’ve fought for generations to receive. And we’re not giving up easily. Anyone who thinks we’re marching because we lost just simply isn’t listening. We’re fighting because we refuse to lose more.”

    Peace be with all the PP peeps.

  133. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Anne,
    All of the above (and I agree all are shortcomings) were shortcomings throughout the 8 years of the Obama administration. Why no marches them. If women had marched say in year 4 of his administration – perhaps they would have been fixed. But there were no marches. Curious.

  134. Stephen says:

    X2 what MLD said. Why now and not earlier?

    Also, why ally w/LGBTQ and kick out pro-life groups?

    (Genuine curiosity)

  135. Anne says:

    MLD- There was plenty of marching during the Obama years. Especially among peace,justice, immigration , and environmental activists. Much of which did not get covered by main stream media (like Sander’s campaign esp in the earlier months)Granted not by as many middle or higher class white folk. It has taken someone like T and the continued shrinking of the middle class for many to start waking up to problems minorities and the poor have faced unabated under Ds & Rs alike for decades.

  136. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’m back to caring nothing about politics, and hope to stay here for the rest of my life…

    However, have you ever noticed whenever a person makes a statement about something, the response is “Why didn’t they make this statement about (literally infinite number of possibilities)?”

    If people would think about how impossible it would be to A) answer that question, or B) march for every single thing ever, they might realize the folly of their critique.

  137. Anne says:

    Stephen: The focus was on women, all humans uniting against losing liberties and rights we as US citizens currently have under the law. On these very pages we have had some vigorous discussions re: imposing religious belief on secular law. Even among devout Christians there is thoughtful, sincere debate on when life begins( a debate I do not want to derail this thread by getting into here). Suffice it to say that in the discussions of whether they would join or not, there was such a level of judgmentalism, and confrontation coming from the fundamentalist factions it was apparent it would be disruptive to the overall mission of the march.

  138. Xenia says:

    Josh, yes.

    I notice remarks like: Why didn’t you do this years ago? Why aren’t you including this particular issue? Etc. etc. This instead of addressing the actual issues.

  139. Xenia says:

    And as far as the marches being planned by some nefarious conspiratorial group, all the people I know who participated decided to join at the spur of the moment. They saw on TV and FB what was happening and decided to go. Much of it was spontaneous enthusiasm.

  140. Josh the Baptist says:

    Exactly. See it mostly when African Americans protest police-shootings.

    “I hope they were protesting when (some random) black guy killed (another random) black guy.”

    It isn’t a point at all. It is a simple obfuscation. But the purveyors of said argument seem to think that it is the end-all be-all.

  141. Josh the Baptist says:

    While I’m sure everyone had her own agenda, the overall message seemed to be, “We are women. Women are cool”.

    And that’s a good message.

    As far as women dressing like anatomy? I didn’t see that at all.

    Surely no one thought those pink hats looked like female anatomy?

  142. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh I sent you a FB message of the picture. Look over your shoulder first if you open it at work.

  143. Steve Wright says:

    Here is an article from mic.com – hardly a right wing bastion of news. It is in their “Identities” section. It is straight forward, serious discussion of the “problem” with the march. Lest anyone muse that right wingers are making noise about nothing to mock the whole thing. https://mic.com/articles/166273/how-the-women-s-march-s-genital-based-feminism-isolated-the-transgender-community#.LAkFCoTwS

    The left is eating its own. Meanwhile, Trump meets with union leaders and job creators as the DNC has audtions for their next chairperson that include Sally Brown saying ““My job is to listen and be a voice, and my job is to shut other white people down when they want to interrupt. My job is to shut other white people down when they want to say, oh, no, I’m not prejudiced. I’m a Democrat. I’m accepting.”

    How thin can one slice and subdivide identity politics and remain a viable political party? Now they want to kick out any white Democrats who don’t admit they are prejudiced?

    The brutal irony about the march is that Trump won the white women vote, easily, in the election. However, the march (in DC) was dominated by white women.

    Hillary managed to eek out a small margin of the married women vote (of all ethnic groups) so the question is whether the actions over the weekend aid or hinder more of that vote next time around….(not to mention any offset among the men of this nation)

    FWIW – I have an old friend who, by herself, bought a plane ticket, got a hotel, traveled halfway across the country, to march on Saturday. She is politically liberal as anyone on this blog certainly. I find discussion with her quite informative when it comes to the march, it’s purpose, meaning, and motivation.

  144. Josh the Baptist says:

    MLD – Wow, no I didn’t see that 00

    Did you facebook dump me at some point?

  145. Steve Wright says:

    There is conservatism by conviction – where one truly thinks one’s ideas are best for the nation.

    Conservatism by party loyalty – where one acts more conservative than they really are in order to stay true to their party.

    Conservatism by tradition – where one basically just supports what they have always supported, and typically what their parents supported etc.

    And of course all three of these are true for liberalism as well.

    I believe what Trump has done is create conservatism by spite. This is a guy whose biggest problem in the GOP primary was he is a liberal New Yorker (at best a left leaning moderate) and the more time goes by the more the guy is acting like Ronald Reagan. It is my theory he is reacting to the way he is being treated and if the Democrats only knew that of all the Republicans running in the primary they got the absolute best choice for their agenda possible, and acted accordingly, things would be quite different.

    He is a definite threat to the lobbyist and influence peddlers from both parties that dominate Washington politics, and while he flat out beat those on the right to win the nomination (and election), those influence peddlers on the left, fearing for their own future relevance, are stirring up fear among supporters and in doing so creating a very low bar for his reelection.

    Trump got more of the black male vote than Romney. Still only 13% but that was better than Mitt’s 11%. So what happens when it turns out Trump doesn’t lynch half the blacks in the country like they are predicting, and instead helps them get back their jobs – and he gets 20-25% of that vote next time.

    Now, normally when one’s political opponent is digging a hole, one is wise to stay silent and let them keep digging. However, when one follows Christ, one wants to see peace and prosperity for all of the country in which they live. Therefore, my advice, much like the Tea Party and others stood up to the GOP (and Trump did as well), would be for those who have political leanings and passions to the left to likewise stand up to the Democrats before they kill the entire party with this present madness.

  146. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – I don’t know where you went – I just sent you a friend request.

  147. Josh the Baptist says:

    We’re back together 🙂

  148. Michael says:

    “Therefore, my advice, much like the Tea Party and others stood up to the GOP (and Trump did as well), would be for those who have political leanings and passions to the left to likewise stand up to the Democrats before they kill the entire party with this present madness.”

    The reason it’s so cold outside is that hell just froze over…I agree with Steve Wright on a political issue.

    My politics were formed from old school Democrats…think Hubert Humphrey and Bobby Kennedy.
    I was very young,but they made a huge impression on me.

    They would not have been an advocate of the present madness.

    I am proud to live in an historically liberal state…but our greatest leaders were two Republicans (Tom McCall and Mark Hatfield) and one Republican who switched parties, the incomparable Wayne Morse.

    Today, our governor leans so far left she’s going to land in the Pacific and leave a horrible legacy in many ways.

    We need some new leaders…big time.

    “It was once said that the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped.”

    Hubert Humphrey

  149. London says:

    I’m using Josh’s “we are women. Women are cool” on my sign at the next march!!

  150. London says:

    Also, I think I’ll send a note to the organizers of the next set of marches to ask them to let women know to please dress modestly so Christians aren’t offended. :eyeroll:

  151. Scooter Jones says:

    Good insights from Steve Wright.

  152. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “so Christians aren’t offended. :eyeroll:”
    I wasn’t offended – I thought it was hilarious” I even get a kick out of the LGBTXYZ march around in diapers — but everyone now needs to remember, anything goes.

    Now, speaking from my own personal point of view of likes, I would have like to have seen more slim women in tight jeans instead of the anatomically correct costumes.- but I don’t get to choose who marches in the parades.

  153. Michael says:

    I wish both sides of these debates would stop trying to shock and offend, but seek to persuade…

  154. Duane Arnold says:

    #148 Michael

    Agreed, agreed, agreed… I actually believe that a good part of the madness has nothing to do with party, or even politics… it is just discontent and wanting something to be done. I remember after Robert Kennedy’s death almost 30% of his supporters went to George Wallace. It makes no sense in terms of policy, politics or party, but it was a reaction of people who wanted something to be done in a situation in which they felt powerless…

  155. Michael says:

    Duane,

    I agree thrice as well…people who felt ignored and pushed to the margins elected this President…

  156. Jean says:

    Michael,
    I just looked at the news and learned that 3-5 million people voted illegally in the last presidential election according to the new administration without any evidence. Is this considered “alternative facts” or “false news” or good old propaganda?

  157. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “…people who felt ignored and pushed to the margins elected this President…”

    So let him govern on the issues these people thought important – or are you of the mind to have them ignored and pushed to the margins once again.

    People may think my comments are pro Trump and they are not – they are 100% anti whiney crybabies who refuse to let the system work. There are always going to be policies that one side or the other will disagree with, and that seems to be a reality that the left cannot grasp – in fact it is totally foreign to them to not get their way.

  158. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I’m used to it.
    Most news reports on mainstream media and much from the internet on Mexico and border issues for the last five years have been false.

    People wanted to believe it, however…

  159. Michael says:

    MLD,

    To a degree you have a point.
    The people elected this President, along with a majority in the House and Senate.
    They have earned the right to do what they are going to do.

    However, on issues of conscience, I still have a responsibility to speak.

  160. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Write your congress person.

  161. Michael says:

    I live in Oregon…my congress persons already have it right. 😉

    Your side complained non stop for eight years…expect the same.

  162. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    In the end, I am just tired of Americans not being Americans. We have the greatest electoral process in the world – one that has served us well for 230 yrs, that has provided the safest exchange of power the world has ever seen – and what did we get “I didn’t get my way.” – well crap shake it off and change it 4 yrs from now – change your congress person 2 yrs from now – but don’t be trying to stop the system – and if anyone was honest they would have to admit that is what they are trying to do.

  163. Michael says:

    I have never and would never advocate changing the system.

  164. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Your side complained non stop for eight years…expect the same.”

    I have no side – I have not had a political affiliation in a dozen years – don’t give a dime to a single politician and I never sign petitions.

    So, the best you can say is that the “other” side complained for 8 yrs.— Although I have been complaining since 1968.

  165. Michael says:

    MLD,

    Look…for the last eight years I’ve been barraged by tales of FEMA camps and gun seizures, terrorists flooding over the border, and bizarre lies about the President and his wife.

    Now, the show is on the other foot and I hope the left reacts with some measure of decorum and dignity and sticks to facts.

    There are loons on both sides, but to demand silence is un American.

  166. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Who even knows what a FEMA camp is?

  167. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – all you are doing is making the case that there should not be peace in our nation and that we should not get along. That’s fine with me, but you can’t have it both ways.

    You can’t say, after 8 yrs it’s payback time and out the other side say I wish we had peace.

    The battles don’t bother me at all. I expect to be screwed. I told someone earlier I vote for the person who promises to use Vaseline.

  168. Jean says:

    Michael,

    Your #166 is exactly what many of us are thinking. Exactly!

  169. Michael says:

    MLD,

    All I am reacting to is your demand that the other side sit on their hands with their mouths closed.

    That’s not how this has ever worked.

    On the other hand, I’m trying to move the discussions up to a level where we can find common ground… I don’t like Trump,but I love a lot of people who voted for him.

  170. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I thought he wrote well…glad you read it.

  171. Jean says:

    The right not only claimed Obama was Muslim (as though they had access to his heart), but they claimed he was actively trying to undermine our country’s security. Trump was a birther all the way into Obama’s second term. I can take oppositions on issues, but fabricating hate is despicable, and a lot of it was espoused specifically by self-professed Christians.

  172. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “All I am reacting to is your demand that the other side sit on their hands with their mouths closed.”

    That isn’t what I suggested at all. I am just trying to tamp down your sides suggestion that Trump is not only an illegitimate president but one is is unqualified – on his 3rd day in office.

    I said above, there is always going to be a large portion of the population that disagrees with many issues – that is not what we are talking about here. I am against foreign aid, I am against us paying a disproportionate share of NATO and the United Nations – in fact I am 100% against. But I don’t try to delegitimatize an administration because they don’t go along with what I want. Some here do.

  173. stephen says:

    so, ultimately at the end of the day, it’s “doing to others equal-or-greater than they did to you” because the left are in that position now.

    Instead of the opposite…as Michael alluded to.

    Where are people on the left trying to be a voice of reason?

    (And that Patheos article was so full of bitterness that I shudder to think its a Christian writing it.im not saying that it’s not a valid point, but the bitterness…wow).

  174. Jean says:

    Stephen,

    Why do you give a rats behind about the left? If they self-implode doesn’t that just further your cause. Why don’t you ask all your questions and invest your energy in navigating your obligation as a Christian while supporting the new President? One would think that would keep you busy.

  175. Scooter Jones says:

    Jean, why do you give a rats behind about the right? If they self-implode doesn’t that just further your cause. Why don’t you ask all your questions and invest your energy in navigating your obligation as a Christian while supporting the new President? One would think that would keep you busy.

    See how that works?

  176. Jean says:

    Scooter Jones,

    Here’s how it works:

    “Jean, why do you give a rats behind about the right? If they self-implode doesn’t that just further your cause.” Yes. I want to expose policies I disagree with in the hope they are defeated or reversed.

    “Why don’t you ask all your questions and invest your energy in navigating your obligation as a Christian while supporting the new President?” I respect the election and Trump’s victory, unlike the President who is now claiming that over 3 million people voted illegally without any evidence to back up the allegation. As a Christian, I will do everything I can to not lie about Trump or spread falsehood about him. I wish Trump would make the same commitment to the truth.

    “One would think that would keep you busy.” Actually, other than this blog recently, I spend almost no time on politics.

  177. stephen says:

    Jean,

    You know nothing about me other than what you assume through some comments on this blog that I posted in order to gain some understanding on the way people I don’t agree with (on a few particular issues) see and justify their views a those few particular issues.

    And the comments I made are just that…comments. What’s wrong, do try hit too close to home that you need to snap at me?

    See, I’m actually TRYING to do what you all are claiming you are trying to do, but all I get from it is disrespect and sarcastic comments from bitter people, like you.

    Quite frankly, I have no “cause,” and I’m no blind follower of any man and I’m far from the stupid person you seem to think I am.

    Sheesh.

  178. stephen says:

    Ok, I’m done with this thread.

    Spit and slam in me all you want, I’ll remain gone and thus defenseless Whatever, it just reinforces what I’m beginning to believe is folly in trying to discuss issues with people who are mad about how things went last election.

  179. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Here is a pretty good 25 min of radio that is the 3rd part of a series of Gnosticism in America and this part is about Gnosticism in politics. There is a side part in here about why the left (in the case of this election) can’t let go.

    The progressives have a problem here and I think it is well worth the time. But hey it’s your time not mine, so how can I judge.

    http://issuesetc.org/2017/01/23/0232-gnosticism-is-21st-century-america-part-3-gnosticism-and-politics-pr-peter-burfeind-12317/

  180. Jean says:

    Stephen,

    Your 178 and 179 are quite melodramatic. No one is spitting or slamming. Actually, as social media goes, this thread has been relatively informative and congenial. How can I make that assertion? On the basis that Michael hasn’t threatened anyone in this thread with moderation or expulsion, which has happened in the past when things truly get out of hand.

    Where there are differing opinions on deeply held values, in a format such as this, you are going to encounter a certain amount of sarcasm. (We are all disciples of MLD on that score.) But, if you’re going to participate in these discussions, then you will have to get used to it and thicken your skin.

    On the other hand, I do not think you are stupid, but I don’t think you have been totally sincere with your questions (just being honest). However, assuming you are intelligent, which I do, and have something to say, I invite you to remain on this blog to add your voice and perspective to issues which you feel passionate about. This is a very diverse and great group of people who agree on some things and disagree on others. We are not looking for an echo chamber by any means.

    Peace.

  181. covered says:

    Well said Jean. I appreciate the grace in your post.

  182. bob1 says:

    Despite all the handwringing about our new President…

    Here’s the larger picture which is quite optimistic —

    “Remember: The most important thing happening is not a Trump tweet. What’s infinitely more important is that today some 18,000 children who in the past would have died of simple diseases will survive, about 300,000 people will gain electricity and a cool 250,000 will graduate from extreme poverty.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/opinion/sunday/why-2017-may-be-the-best-year-ever.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=1

  183. Xenia says:

    Handwringing….

    Is that what you think this is?

  184. London says:

    Curious if people plan to register on the Muslim registry if there is one. Why or why not? Would it be different if it were a Jewish registry? Why or why not?

  185. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    There will be no Muslim register.

  186. Xenia says:

    If there is a Muslim registry, I will not register as a Muslim because I cannot deny my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    I might hide a few Mexicans in my back bedroom, though.

  187. London says:

    Xenia,
    Yeah, I won’t register either, but I do understand people’s hearts when they are saying they would.

    I would hide anyone in my back yard if they just help me clean it up 🙂

  188. London says:

    Bedroom (although the yard could use help too). Lol

  189. Scooter Jones says:

    I’m not a muslim, therefore, I will not be signing a register if there is one. Now, if an English/German registry requirement pops up, I will most likely be signing it 😉

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