Things I Think…

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186 Responses

  1. Em says:

    First comment?
    I understand the discouragement in Michael’s post, but we are told that one thousand years is just a blink of the eye in God’s timetable….
    Yet i understand where Michael is coming from – one day sunrise to sunset, for us passes very slowly at times…
    In my 86th year now, it seems that we haven’t made much progress… HOWEVER. 😇
    We are progressing just as God planned
    God keep

  2. Dan from Georgia says:

    This has always been my favorite segment of the weekly posts here Michael. Trying to think of why I like this feature so much. Maybe you put into words what lurks in my mind but have no place to proclaim, or even how to codify clearly what said lurking is about. I especially appreciate #4-6 today.

  3. Michael says:

    Em,

    I’m sure He’s in control…probably looks better from His viewpoint than mine…

  4. bob1 says:

    #10 It’s no wonder so many of us are lonelier than ever. The downside of extreme “autonomy.”

  5. Michael says:

    Dan,

    Thanks…I hope you continue to find some value here…you add some, for sure.

    I think I’m in some sort of Covid era coma…I’m used to having facts to think through and debate…but we don’t even agree on what is fact anymore.
    I’m also a fixer…and it feels like everything’s broken with no fix available…

  6. Dan from Georgia says:

    RE: thought 1…this does seem to be true where people construct their own narrative, so to speak, and look for confirmation from others (there’s that pesky confirmation bias again). It is sad that people these days seem to be digging their feet in deeper and are not willing to consider other view, no matter the evidence.

    I posted a while back that I was taken in by the urban legend that American Atheists were out to remove Christians/Christian content from the radio and TV. I was willing to look at the evidence that this was false, and was convinced to no longer buy into the urban legend.

    I post this because sometimes it is good to consider other viewpoints, even if you are not convinced in the end.

  7. Michael says:

    bob1,

    This is an odd example, but it fits for me.

    When I was a kid we drove to the city once a week for groceries.
    We went to the same store every week because we wanted to go through the same checker every week.
    She became part of the family…not just for us, but her line was always the longest…she connected.
    Now I have my groceries delivered through Walmart or when I have to go in, I use the automated checker…

  8. Dan from Georgia says:

    Yes Michael, many don’t even know what’s true anymore.

  9. Michael says:

    Dan,

    I don’t know for sure anymore myself…except for Jesus and knowing the Vikings will break my heart…

  10. Janet Linn says:

    I thought I had made up my mind about the safety and importance of the Covid vaccine for all ages, but then came last week. First, I had my Covid booster, and after having almost no reaction at all after the second Covid shot, I had a pretty bad reaction to the booster with a couple of days of actual fever and some pretty bad muscle aches. Shouldn’t each shot be a bit easier on our systems? Even worse, I stressed and fretted because my 5- year-old grand daughter got the child’s version of the Covid shot ( she’s in the Army day care center so my guess is that it was required to get it in order to participate in the Army daycare program, which is excellent. She’s fine with just a slightly sore arm, but still, I hope it really is safe for her tiny body! And to top it all off, my youngest daughter announced her first pregnancy last week, and now I am worrying about her! I’ve heard that pregnant women are at very high risk for serious Covid complications and even death if they catch it whike pregnant. She needs her booster shot, but I wonder if it really us safe for a developing baby in the womb? Interestingly, a pregnant friend of hers told her that it is recommended that pregnant women get the shot half way through pregnancy because that way the baby will be born with some immunity to Covid when they are born. Considering that babies usually spend a few days in the hospital after they are born, that immunity could be very important! I suppose I worry more about my grandchildren than I do myself. I wish I didn’t have so much to worry about and I wish life would REALLY go back to normal ! These young people ate very brave to continue on bringing new life into the world in the midst of a pandemic. My older daughter had her second child right as the pandemic started. Babies born at her hospital in Honolulu just one month after she gave birth were born without fathers present for the birth because of Covid hospital restrictions! My daughters are 36 and 33 so they really cannot afford to wait for this pandemic to be over to start and establish their families. TpMy daughters both had graduate school and careers keeping them very busy, but God has called now them to be mothers, too. May God protect them, the children are our future, and God has determined that life must go on.

  11. Em says:

    Michael @ 12:27
    Pretty sure it does look better from God’s viewpoint, BUT
    knowing that fact doesn’t make it any easier at times….
    One of my daughters has a picture hanging on her wall – pretty sure everyone here has seen it – a person walking in the sand …
    for a while there are two sets of footprints and then only one.
    The person accuses God of abandoning him, but God answers, “no, that was when I carried you!”
    Praise to our Faithful God!

  12. Em says:

    Praying with you now, Janet

  13. BrideofChrist says:

    Nice thoughts, Em! May God carry us all through this, and protect the vulnerable mothers and children during this pandemic especially. Please keep my newly pregnant daughter in your prayers. When she was young she had exercise induced asthma, had double pneumonia once, and she spent three days in the hospital with an inflamed airway ( epiglotus) when she was just two. They had her in an oxygen tent! She seems to have a delicate respiratory system, even though she “outgrew” the asthma.

  14. Michael says:

    Janet Linn,

    I had my booster and flu shot at the same time last week.
    I was sick for about three days.
    There is no way in hell I’d give the shot to a child…I’m barely convinced that I should take it.
    I’ve now had three shots in 6 months…how long will this one last?

    We don’t know…we simply don’t have enough information.

  15. BrideofChrist says:

    Thank you, Em!

  16. BrideofChrist says:

    Michael, They are in the Army, and they are quite strict about what they require from the enlisted service member and their families. My daughter NIW works for the United States Chamber of Commerce in their veterans dept coordinating job search programs for former enlisted service members. So she us part if the system as well. During the height of the pandemic Army family as were forbidden to fly or travel outside of their communities. I don’t know how they expected to enforce those restrictions, but I suspect that they can take away the military familys’ benefits and support ( such as the Army daycare or other benefits).

  17. Michael says:

    Bride,

    I understand…I just think all these demands are going to come back and bite us at some point…

  18. Duane Arnold says:

    As of November 12, 2021…

    “New CDC data shows that the rate of COVID-19-related hospitalizations at the height of the delta surge was 18.5 times higher among unvaccinated adults, compared with their vaccinated peers. At the end of August, the rate of COVID-19 hospitalizations among unvaccinated 50- to 64-year-olds was 93.8 per 100,000, compared with 3 per 100,000 in vaccinated individuals in the same age range, while the rate of hospitalizations among unvaccinated people 65 and older was 239 per 100,000, compared with a rate of 14.8 per 100,000 in vaccinated people. About 65 million eligible Americans remain unvaccinated, according to CDC Director Rochelle Walensky.” 

  19. Em says:

    Dr. Duane…… Not sure the CDC is a reliable data source ….. Dunno, though, do i?

  20. Michael says:

    Duane,

    I understand the numbers…I keep repeating that I have had all the shots.

    However…we don’t know either the short or longterm ramifications of the shot…I will have to be checked again for myocarditis next week.
    We don’t know how effective the shot is or for how long…and not knowing that is concerning to me.
    We also have no idea how many vaccine injuries there have been.

    So far the risk/reward ratio is on the side of the shot…but (for me) the gap is narrowing.

    These questions would be asked for any other medication any of us ingested…I think we need them answered for this one as well.

  21. Jean says:

    The stats provided by Duane at 2:51 pm are overwhelmingly in favor of being vaccinated against Covid.

    I got my flu vaccine and Covid booster on the same day and had side affects for about 1-1/2 days. I take the side effects as evidence that one or both shots elicited an immune reaction, which is a good thing. I would rather have a side effect for a couple days than go into the ICU or die from a preventable disease.

  22. Michael says:

    I’m going to repeat this again…I’m in favor of people being vaccinated…especially high risk people.

    There are still real questions to be asked.

    Another question…

    The science doesn’t support vaccinating kids…why are we pushing it?

    Final question…

    Why can’t this topic be addressed as we would any other medical issue?

  23. Jean says:

    “Why can’t this topic be addressed as we would any other medical issue?”

    How is it not? The only difference I’ve seen is the voodo science and political political science applied by the anti-vaccers. When if anti-vaccers gave half a damn as much interest in what the food industry puts into our food as they do in the Covid vaccine?

  24. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I’ve worked hard to show that I’m not anti-vaccine.
    If all you see is what you say, then conversation is impossible.
    I’m angry now and may just shut this damn thing down.

  25. Jean says:

    Michael,

    You wrote “The science doesn’t support vaccinating kids”

    I posted a link to a CDC publication regarding science supporting child vaccination.

    Isn’t this discussion? Why are you angry when you are getting exactly what you want?

  26. Michael says:

    The vaccine has become a religious symbol of values on both sides of the equation.
    It should not hold such a place…it’s a medical issue that has been pushed as almost perfect on one side and as evil as hell on the other.
    Simply asking the same questions a person would ask about any drug therapy causes reactions that have nothing to do with the questions at all.
    I refuse …bleeping, bleeping refuse…to be part or platform for that kind of thinking.

  27. Michael says:

    “I posted a link to a CDC publication regarding science supporting child vaccination.”

    No, you did not…you posted link promoting it by an organization that holds no authority for me.

    Many sane pro vaxx doctors do not believe that vaccinating young children is either wise or necessary…the numbers simply do not add up.

  28. Jean says:

    Would you prefer a vaccine that is only 60% effective, so that it would not be spoken of as super wonderful? I am being serious. The mRNA technology behind the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is regarded as a breakthrough technological achievement that will save millions of lives worldwide, and will have equally dramatic effects in future applications.

  29. Michael says:

    Jean,

    We don’t really know how effective they are for how long.
    We have no idea what the short or long term effects are.
    If you would have told me when I got the initial shots that I would need another within a few months, I wouldn’t have believed that.
    We have inadequate measuring of injuries and deaths…which would not be tolerated for any other medication.
    We are stripping people of their livelihoods based on whether or not they comply…how many shots do you have to take to stay in complience?
    There are many unanswered questions..yet, I’m a nut for asking what else we don’t know that we will in a few months…

    Still, I have complied…but the pushback to simple questions is having a very negative effect on how I feel about the whole program.

  30. Em says:

    Sweden has come up with some very troubling research regarding COVID vaccine….

  31. Jean says:

    Michael,

    As people are tracked, researchers will discover how long antibodies persist in people with boosters. That and the progression of mutations will dictate when additional vaccinations are needed.

    This analysis has not changed from day 1.

  32. Michael says:

    Jean,

    That’s simply not true.
    There was no mention of boosters the first go round.
    We’re done now…I truly hope that all my fears and questions are unfounded and without merit…but being treated as a fool for asking them is starting to cause incredibly sinful reactions in my mind.
    I understand how people get radicalized…

  33. Elena says:

    Keep writing Michael!!!
    We love you speaking truth!
    And really enjoy the way you spell them out🙏

  34. Em says:

    Elena @ 4:43….. A*M*E*N* !

  35. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael

    (Late, non-vaccine-related response); yeah, the Vikes won yesterday, but meh! Yesterday I was trying to rack/wrack/sp? my brain trying to remember a decent Vikings showing during a NFC Championship game. Do I have to go back to what, 1987?!?!?

  36. Dan from Georgia says:

    My bad…just looked up 1987…sorry.

    #vikeswilldisappointintheend

  37. Michael says:

    Dan,

    I keep pictures of the 70’s guys …at least they only got me once a year…

  38. Michael says:

    Elena,

    Thank you, my friend…hope you are well…

  39. The New Victor says:

    I was going to get my kids vaccinated, despite there being next to zero chance of them being negatively affected by the virus, but we live in Cali… coming up mandatory for kids. The CVS app didn’t show my local CVS, so we left.

    My buddy in Oregon is about to give up his career not wanting to get the Vax which is mandatory by next month.

  40. CM says:

    For starters, COVID is an RNA virus, just like Rhinoviruses (which cause the common cold) and Influenza Viruses. As such, they tend to mutate faster than DNA-based viruses. It stands to reason that just like the flu virus vaccines, boosters would likely be needed.

    The intellectually dishonesty of the anti-COVID vaccine people is startling. They are OK with yearly flu shots, your every 10 year booster for tetanus (yes that requires a booster as your anti-bodies wane over the years). In fact, if you get a deep puncture wound and go to the urgent care or hospital, the first thing they give you is a tetanus shot (regardless if you had one years ago). Why is that?

  41. josh hamrick says:

    Everyone just go to your local doctor for vaccine advice. Should I get the shot? Should my kids get the shot? Why is there a booster?

    Just ask your doctor. If the Dr. says don’t get it, then listen to the Dr. Most cases, they will say get it.

    Going back and forth about it on the internet is completely useless and can only divide.

  42. AA says:

    Six EU countries suspended Moderna under 30 years old 11/11.

    “As of today, a total of six countries including France, Finland, Germany, Sweden, Iceland and Denmark no longer recommend the Moderna Covid-19 vaccine to people under the age of 30, because it will cause them to have a higher risk of developing myocarditis.”

    Source https://medicaltrend.org/2021/11/11/six-eu-countries-suspended-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-for-young-people/

    The recommendation for pregnant women, where are those studies? They are all experimental. If they are safe why don’t they drop the EUA & make the pharmaceutical companies libel for injury? You can’t get a approved shot of COMIRNATY labeled product.

    The last woman I know who was pregnant lost her baby 2 days after injection. Breaks my heart.

  43. josh hamrick says:

    AA – Everyone under 30 and pregnant women can just ask their own doctors. It doesn’t help anything for non-medical professionals to post back-and-forth links to studies none of us understand.

    Just ask your doctor.

  44. CM says:

    Josh,

    Understood. But the problem is that most of the people not getting vaccinated either refuse to go to their doctor (because their primary care physician will most likely say get the shot) or they have gone to their doctor and ignored the recommendation to get the shot. But then there is no cure for stupid, but nature has a way of thinning out the herd. COVID seems to be doing a good job doing that. A cursory read of the Hermann Cain Award subreddit confirms that.

  45. Michael says:

    CM,

    Not everyone who will not get the shot is an ignorant sloth deserving of death.
    There is a crazy contingent…but there are also some thoughtful people with real questions.

    What we learned here yesterday is that compliance isn’t enough…you must have an unquestioned faith in the jab and the government or you are one of those despicable vermin who would kill us all.

    It’s religious fundamentalism at its worst…with a different god and doctrines fiercely protected.

    We’ve lost the ability to think critically and there is a price to speak freely…

  46. josh hamrick says:

    Oh come on. Its not religion with a different God. It’s people concerned about our corporate health, and think they have the best ideas. The other side, misguided in my opinion, think they have the answers and everyone needs to hear them.

    The truth is, the discussion is useless, unless there are some MDs here we don’t know about. Just ask your doctor what to do. If you don’t trust you dr for that decision, you need a different dr. No need for online discussion of this matter.

  47. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Any time you cannot have a discussion about something or question something…it has moved from one category to another.

    This mess unfortunately moved to my personal life yesterday…and I was excoriated as both ignorant and evil simply for asking questions…even though I’ve had my three shots and a mask.

    Yes, you should ask your doctor…

  48. CM says:

    AA,

    For starters, the elevated risk of getting myocarditis from the Moderna shot is known and is clearly stated on the FDA and other websites. This is not hidden nor obscure. But other vaccines do not have that elevated risk of myocarditis (J&J being one of them). As I have a history of myocarditis, I opted for the J&J vaccine back in May and I will be getting the J&J booster in the next couple of months.

  49. josh hamrick says:

    You can have a discussion. You have the freedom to do so, but barring input from a dr or epidemiologist, it will be an ignorant discussion, and I don’t find those particularly helpful.

    Were the people who reviled you for asking questions qualified to answer those questions? If not, there opinions are not important. We need to ask the right questions of the right people and stop the ignorant mudslinging. THis problem can’t be solved by crowd-sourcing. We have to consult the real experts.

  50. Jean says:

    Josh,
    I agree with this:

    “The truth is, the discussion is useless, unless there are some MDs here we don’t know about.”

    And I would add, if you don’t believe the science built on the vaccine trials and statistics regarding hospitalizations, deaths and documented side effects, which the CDC and FDA are responsible for analyzing and advising the public, and you substitute…what?, then discussion is also impossible. Because in that case people have different truths, which then makes discussion impossible.

    What saddens me is that when elements of the public have contempt for the CDC and FDA, the inference is that the thousands of men and women who serve our nation are either idiots, traitors, corrupt in some other way. With those kinds of thoughts, discussion is impossible and actually our country is in trouble. It is the perfect setting for foreign nations, charasmatic preachers, political opportunists and other conspiracy proponents to divide and destroy our country.

  51. Michael says:

    Jean,

    You will not find anyone in the community of Lyme disease survivors who trust the CDC.

    The country is in trouble…because many in power are corrupt…

    My one area of minor expertise is in border issues and the drug war…where the government has proved over and over again that it is the biggest cartel in the Americas.

  52. Jean says:

    By the way,

    If a double blind vaccine trial, or a statistical samplings of hospitalizations, indicates a vaccine is 95% effective or that the risk of serious side effects is .002%, that means that (a) the the vaccine does not work for 5 out of 100 people and (b) 2 out of 100,000 people taking a vaccine may have a serious side effect.

    If you research any vaccine, you will find that none of them are 100% effective and 100% risk free.

    The key is to put the odds on your side by taking a vaccine that gives you better odds than catching the disease unvaccinated. In addition, the country cannot run effectively if the hospitals and funeral homes are overwhelmed and a large percentage of the population is self-isolating because of the risk of catching a disease. Moreover, schools and businesses have a legal duty to provide their staffs, students/customers with a safe environment. So there is both an individual responsibility and a communal responsibility in play.

  53. CM says:

    Michael,

    Another problem is the intellectual inconsistency of those thoughtful others with real questions. Why suddenly NOW they have questions? Many (and I would wager most) of them did not have those same real questions with previous vaccines. Could it be they and their doubts are being played by the crazies and they are just useful idiots?

    Statistically, you have a greater chance of dying in a car crash than dying or getting complications from a COVID shot. Yet they are OK with wearing seat belts, and they never had real questions about wearing seat belts and the potential downsides. It most likely never entered their mind at all.

    Their intellectual inconsistency and shallowness is no different that those who don’t like to fly because of the risk of a plane crash or terrorist attack but are OK with driving themselves.

  54. Xenia says:

    I was at my dr’s yesterday. He said if everyone had gotten the shot when it first came out, Covid would have died out. Now, he said, there are these variants, and now Covid will never go away.

    I think I am allowed to have an opinion about people who have allowed this to happen to the people of the world.

  55. Michael says:

    “Could it be they and their doubts are being played by the crazies and they are just useful idiots?”

    I suppose I’m just a useful idiot…which in that case, you should find places to comment that match your unequaled intellect and grasp of the issues.

  56. josh hamrick says:

    Well what do ya know? I was wrong.

    This is a useful, fruitful, well-informed conversation after all.

    Yall enjoy yourslves.

  57. Michael says:

    “I think I am allowed to have an opinion about people who have allowed this to happen to the people of the world.”

    Let’s repeat.

    I have had three Covid shots.
    I have personally taken people without transportation to get Covid shots.
    I am the farthest thing from anti- vaxx as you can be.
    I have some real questions about the process and the shots and the future.

  58. Michael says:

    Let’s say I’m a person with the same questions I have without my own blog.

    Is there a place where I can go for honest discussion or will I be forced into the arms of the zealots?

    The answers are all above…

  59. Xenia says:

    Michael, Why do you think I was directing my comments to you personally?

    I was reporting, to this group assembled here this AM, what my doctor said.

    I am interested in what doctors say.

  60. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I am too.
    My doctors have been mostly straight up with…the risk/reward ratio is still on the side of the shot, but there are unknown issues that remain.
    My doctors to a person cannot fathom why we are giving shots to little kids.

    I want to fully understand these things…and how people react and why.

  61. josh hamrick says:

    “Is there a place where I can go for honest discussion or will I be forced into the arms of the zealots?”

    Yes. Your Doctor.

  62. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I get the point.
    However…just as people are discipled by many influences outside the church, so it is with everything else these days.
    Respect for real expertise is at an all time low.

  63. josh hamrick says:

    Let’s change that. Lets stop giving uninformed medical and pandemic opinions online. Save those discussions for our doctors. Nothing good can come from these online discussions.

  64. Xenia says:

    We’ve been the patients of our doctor for over 40 years. We met him when he first set up shop with our earlier doctor, who retired. We love him and we trust him. I think there’s a lot of distrust because in America, where everyone moves and skips around, there’s not a lot of really long term relationships the build trust.

    So when our doctor gave us his explanation of why he thinks there’s so much vax resistance, I pay attention. He says he’s never seen anything like this, and he alternates between angry and heartbroken but mostly astonished.

  65. Steve says:

    What I think would be helpful to the discussion is not only a licensed MD but a bioethesist. There are so many ethical issues here that need to be explored. Tons of folks including myself have filed for religious exemptions from their employees mandating vaccines. For me personally, it bothers me that aborted fetuses are used in fetal stem cell lines that are being used in research, development, testing and in some instances production of mrna vaccines. Where do we draw the line? Does apparently saving lives justify organ harvesting and the abortion industry? I’m asking for all those that applied for religious exemptions.

  66. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I’m inclined to agree with you…it seems that no discussion bears fruit anymore.
    We’re increasingly locked into a cycle of making every issue into a binary and those on either side of the binary are either good or evil depending on which side you choose.
    The problem with not discussing it is that we end up leaving information distribution in a very few hands.

  67. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Almost all medications and over the counter drugs are now tested against stem cell lines.

  68. josh hamrick says:

    Lets just make sure that the few hands are capable hands, at least in matters of life and death.

  69. CM says:

    Michael,

    There is nothing wrong with asking questions. The question is why are these question now suddenly at the forefront when such questions were not asked about the Bird Flu Vaccine, or the yearly Flu vaccine? Why do many of the same people who have questions about the COVID vaccine don’t have the _same_ questions to whatever new antiviral they want to take for COVID if they get (for example) That is what I mean by intellectual inconsistency.

    BTW, I was not singling you out at all in this line of reasoning (or the earlier one) so please do not take it that way.

  70. Jean says:

    Steve,

    “For me personally, it bothers me that aborted fetuses are used in fetal stem cell lines that are being used in research, development, testing and in some instances production of mrna vaccines.”

    You’ve been played again. Please find and link one, just one, credible article substantiating that a fetal stem cell line has been used in the manufacture of an mRNA vaccine.

  71. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I’m sure you’re aware that there are large teams of doctors online who spout crazy stuff…and they have huge platforms.

    I don’t have any answers…but I am weary of all of this.
    I need to make changes for myself and not worry about it like I do.

  72. Michael says:

    This took 2 seconds…

    “When it comes to the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, fetal cell line HEK 293 was used during the research and development phase. All HEK 293 cells are descended from tissue taken from a 1973 abortion that took place in the Netherlands. Using fetal cell lines to test the effectiveness and safety of medications is common practice, because they provide a consistent and well-documented standard.
    For the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, fetal cell lines were used in the production and manufacturing stage. To make the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, scientists infect PER.C6 fetal cell lines to grow the adenovirus vector. (Learn more about how viral vector vaccines work.) All PER.C6 cells used to manufacture the Johnson & Johnson vaccine are descended from tissue taken from a 1985 abortion that took place in the Netherlands. This cell line is used because it is a well-studied industry standard for safe and reliable production of viral vector vaccines.”

    https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

  73. Steve says:

    Michael, if you are right that bothers me too. The scientists that do this work are more responsibly than the consumers but it’s still concerning especially when folks are making morale arguments that we should get vaccinated and trust the science. Yet, we are supposed to trust the science as a morale argument where many of these scientists could care less about abortion.

  74. Michael says:

    “The question is why are these question now suddenly at the forefront when such questions were not asked about the Bird Flu Vaccine, or the yearly Flu vaccine? ”

    I have friends and family who are allergic to the flu vaccines.

    The answer to your question is that no one lost their job over not getting a flu shot…

  75. Michael says:

    Steve,

    They are separate issues.
    The link I posted explains the process.

  76. Steve says:

    Thanks Michael for responding to Jean for me.

  77. josh hamrick says:

    Oh well.

  78. Xenia says:

    You’d better not take Tylenol, then.

    Many over the counter drugs have stem cell histories.

    This is bad, I agree, but who will be consistent and look up all the common medicines with this back story and refuse to take them?

  79. Steve says:

    You’ve been played again

    _______________________

    Why the derogatory comment? The link Michael shared is one that I referenced when I was doing my own research. Who was I played by?

  80. Jean says:

    I don’t know who he was responding to, Steve, you were the only one posting erroneous information about the mRNA vaccines. Michael’s link, which I am well familiar with, refutes what you wrote.

  81. Steve says:

    Xenia, no one is forcing Tylenol into my blood stream with threat of dismissal from job.

  82. Steve says:

    How does Michael link refute what I said?

  83. Michael says:

    Jean,

    Did you read it?
    It clearly stated that the vaccines were tested against the stem cell line…the article verified what he said.

  84. Jean says:

    Steve, the J&J vaccine is not mRNA.

  85. Xenia says:

    Then we should thank that aborted Dutch baby, whose death saved many lives. O Holy Innocent, pray to God for us.

    I am NOT saying the end justifies the means, lest that be suggested.

  86. Jean says:

    Yes Michael.

    Here is Steve:

    “For me personally, it bothers me that aborted fetuses are used in fetal stem cell lines that are being used in research, development, testing and in some instances production of mrna vaccines.”

  87. Steve says:

    Yeah. Not sure where the dispute is.

  88. Jean says:

    I’m not surprised.

  89. Michael says:

    I agree with the Vatican and Xenia…

  90. Steve says:

    Jean, have no idea what your point is. I was referring to the mrna vaccines. I agree J&J is not mrna. But all of the covid vaccines have issues with fetal stem cells one way or another.

  91. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Jean caught you using imprecise language and therefore believes that he has won the debate and is doing a victory lap around his desk.

    Rather than concede the point that the vaccines were indeed tested against the line and were used In the J&J vaccine, he will use the fact that you were rhetorically imprecise to dismiss you and your concern.

    I don’t think it’s a valid concern, myself, but there is no denying the point.

  92. Steve says:

    Jean, I’m not saying anyone needs to agree with my own religious belief. But surely we can agree that fetal stem cells are used in testing, research, etc in these vaccines. Why are you trying to obscure that fact and say I’m played? It’s dishonest at best and not charitable.

  93. Duane Arnold says:

    I think we are mistaken to argue the science of the vaccines. The statistics are pretty compelling, even without knowing what the future holds or what any long term effects there may be.

    Discussing the ethics of mandates is different. Generally speaking, most ethical decisions are not binary. On the other hand, an ethical system based only upon our personal situation or anecdotes will probably be found wanting. We may be in the territory of “the greatest good” ethic, fully realizing that there is a minority opinion which deserves to be heard…

  94. Jean says:

    Steve,

    Why did you write, “in some instances production of mrna vaccines”?

    My point is (a) we have a Christian duty not to knowingly or negligently spread false information on an issue of public health and (b) if you don’t like something defend your position with accurate and reasonable information.

  95. Michael says:

    Jean,

    We also have a Christian duty to ask for clarification and be gracious…

  96. Michael says:

    “We may be in the territory of “the greatest good” ethic, fully realizing that there is a minority opinion which deserves to be heard…”

    Exactly.

  97. Steve says:

    Jean, there are many more mrna viruses besides the common ones you are aware of in United States. I think the ethics are even lower in countries like China. But thanks for your correction of those in united States. I’m not spreading misinformation and please respond who I have been played by?

  98. Xenia says:

    On the other hand, an ethical system based only upon our personal situation or anecdotes will probably be found wanting<<<

    I agree with Duane here. Michael is rightly concerned about a vax mandate because he has loved ones with Lyme disease; I am rightly concerned about a lack of vax mandate because I have a frail daughter on chemo with no immune system.

    I personally feel I can safely ignore most right wing craziness, but I don't feel I can ignore the Lyme disease aspect. And I hope no one feels it's right to ignore those with compromised (as in non-existing, in my daughter's case) immune systems.

  99. Duane Arnold says:

    Moreover, if we wish to argue the ethics of the vaccines, I’ve yet to hear anyone comment on the abundance of vaccines in first world countries, while third world countries face a paucity of vaccine availability… Of course as they are not Americans or Europeans, maybe we don’t consider their lives of equal value…

  100. Officerhoppy says:

    @#9 “The loss of simplicity”

    I think that is most visible in the worship songs we sing in church. More and more worship leaders are singing and playing along to a click track. That’s were instruments and voices not actually playing on the stage are “dubbed” in to make the sound sound more produced.

    Rather than “giving God the glory due his name” as Psalm 29 says, “worship” (and I use the term loosely) is more of a transaction where congregants give to god to get something back—if nothing more than a good feeling about themselves and their “walk” with Jesus.

    If you look at the lyrics of most songs labeled ad “worship” are “me” oriented.

    The best example of pure worship are the songs in Revelation 4and 5, “Holy Holy Holy Lord God almighty who was and is to come” No mention if “I”.

    Having been a pastor and the worship leader/Director at 2 fairly large churches, I observe audiences in the pre-teaching part of the Sunday gathering. Most are spectators rather than participators. I believe people want to enter in. Amend that’s will happen, I believe, when there is a return to authenticity and simplicity in worship.

    Just a few thoughts

  101. Em says:

    Interesting thread this morning….. The one thing to not forget is that the. COVID “vaccine” is not what we think of when we hear the word…..
    This vaccine gets into your blood and messes with your DNA…. Okay for us old people, but in reality a good quality mask is more efficacious…. IMNSHO. 😇

  102. Michael says:

    “Moreover, if we wish to argue the ethics of the vaccines, I’ve yet to hear anyone comment on the abundance of vaccines in first world countries, while third world countries face a paucity of vaccine availability… Of course as they are not Americans or Europeans, maybe we don’t consider their lives of equal value…”

    I brought this point up with someone last night…especially in the face of no medical need to vaccinate children.
    I was not heard gladly…

  103. Michael says:

    “I personally feel I can safely ignore most right wing craziness, but I don’t feel I can ignore the Lyme disease aspect. And I hope no one feels it’s right to ignore those with compromised (as in non-existing, in my daughter’s case) immune systems.”

    Thank you…and I affirm your concerns as well…which is why I still wear a mask and social distance when I leave the house…I don’t know what someone else is contending with.

  104. Em says:

    Officer holly is a wise man….. Again in my NSHO.
    GOD KEEP

  105. josh hamrick says:

    hoppy – that’s not what a click track is.

  106. Em says:

    Shoulda checked the auto spell correct
    Holly? NO! ! ! Officerhoppy!

  107. Steve says:

    Duane, I certainly didn’t want to say my use case with fetal cell stem use in vaccines is the only ethical concern. There are tons of use cases and that is why a bioethesis would be a good addition to this blog. I’m willing to hear all ethical concerns. I would never say anyone was played because of their sincerely held religious belief.

  108. CM says:

    Michael and Steve,

    Actually you can be refused admittance to schools for not being vaccinated for many things (including other vaccines that used stem cells in their research, development, and manufacture). You can also be dismissed from the school if you refuse to be vaccinated.

    As for private employers, they have right to fire employees for not following company policy. PERIOD. You do not have a right to a job anymore than I have a right to yell on your lawn. Truck drivers have been fired for not wearing seat belts or lost their CDL for having to many tickets while driving their private car. If don’t like the company rules, you are free to work somewhere else. Tough Excrement.

  109. Duane Arnold says:

    Steve

    The thing about bioethics, is that there is seldom a binary “right/wrong” construct available. I think it is why you see so few believers actively involved in the field…

  110. josh hamrick says:

    Hitler used click tracks to immunize his people from being off-beat.

  111. Officerhoppy says:

    Josh
    I’ve used a click track in the studio as a time keeper. The musicians I’ve talked to who lead worship call what they use on stage, a click t4ack.

    They have an in-ear monitor with a voice they tells them when a chorus is coming up, or a verse, and they play to prerecorded music.

    That’s what they call it—I don’t use it so I am not familiar with the actual/other term

  112. Officerhoppy says:

    Josh
    That’s funny!!!!

  113. Em says:

    There is something sad about worship music being performance oriented…. gotta have a good drummer….. Say what? ? ?

  114. Steve says:

    Duane, very true and most engaged in the field are probably not well embraced by the community at large. Sometimes there is too much $$ on the line with big pharma as well.

  115. Officerhoppy says:

    Em
    Ironically, (this will blow your mind) I play with the drummer from Heart/ White Snake/ Montrose. He finished his professional musical career as a sideman for Foreigner

  116. Jean says:

    Steve,

    “Jean, there are many more mrna viruses besides the common ones you are aware of in United States.”

    Here we go…

    Steve, mRNA is not a virus. Did you mean “many more mRNA vaccines…”?

    Can you name a single mRNA vaccine approved by the FDA besides the Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech Covid vaccines?

  117. josh hamrick says:

    The click track is just a metronome/ click sound used to keep everyone on the same tempo. I don’t use one often in worship, but sometimes it is absolutely necessary. (If music is dropping out or coming back in…synching up to the next song, etc.) Its just a toll to keep everyone in time. Another option is to have a director stand in front and direct the musicians, like you would see in an orchestra. I do that occasionally as well.
    I use some pre-recorded tracks a couple of times a year. This is when you don’t have the musicians to accomplish what you’d like to accomplish. Last Easter, I recorded all the backing tracks myself. I probably put 100 hours into that 1 hour service. So that isn’t really feasible. Someone has already recorded an organ track, and you don’t have an organist, so you use that.
    I think it enhances, rather than inhibits worship, but we all have our own tastes and perceive things differently.

  118. Officerhoppy says:

    Josh
    Thanks Josh

    Like I said, I know what a click track is—I’ve used it in the studio. But “click” track is what the guys I’ve worked with call it when the sound is enhanced.

    I am probably from a different culture than you—and would never resort to prerecorded music. When it comes to leading worship simplicity is the name of the game and congregational participation and the exaltation of God my goal.

    But as you said, that’s my preference. 🙂

  119. josh hamrick says:

    “congregational participation and the exaltation of God my goal.”

    Of course! Me too!

    How simple? Do you use instruments at all? Why?
    Harmony or just melody? Melody is simpler.
    But then again, melody is more complex than a plain chant.

    Do you chant?

    Why not? Are you just looking to entertain?

  120. Duane Arnold says:

    Josh

    I chant… almost every time I celebrate the Eucharist…😁

  121. josh hamrick says:

    Awesome. I’m certainly not opposed to chanting.

  122. josh hamrick says:

    or melodic sing.
    Or harmonious singing.
    Or music with instrumentation.
    Or music with pre-recorded instrumentation.

  123. Officerhoppy says:

    Josh
    Good questions

    We use instruments. So did David. My concern is over production. I see the voice as just another instrument.

    I do simple harmonies. If harmonies are complex, I ask my band mates Tito resort to stay on the melody

    Don’t chant. Not in my tradition. But it could be pretty cool. I lived in the Mt. Angel area of the Willamette Valley. Used to go to the Abby and listen to the antiphonal singing of the monks.

    I have three goals for s worship set all beginning with the letter”E”:
    Exaltation—God
    Engagement—participation
    Encounter—run smack dab into Jesus

    Hope that explains where I am coming from. How about you?

  124. josh hamrick says:

    At the basics, just hoping to meet with God and provide a place for others to do so as well.

    But we are also teaching, evangelizing, etc.

  125. Chris Long says:

    I’m not going to weigh in one way or another on the vaccine itself, but only to say: Anyone who just blindly trusts what a doctor tells them has their faith in the wrong place. I know many people revere doctors like they are experts who know all the answers, but you will find doctors that have differing opinions on these things. And anyone who’s ever experienced serious health issues where the doctors had no clue knows putting your trust in doctors and their supposed “expertise” isn’t necessarily wise anyway. Listen, yes. But just cause a doctor says something one way or another doesn’t make it so. You know what the BEST plan is for us as believers? Go to Doctor Jesus and talk to him. We’ve got the Holy Spirit to lead and guide and to help us in our own personal life. Rather than attacking other believers for their stance one way or another, we should be encouraging believers to be in prayer and listen to the Holy Spirit for themselves. Perhaps I am wrong, but me thinks He just might tell one person to take it and another one not to, depending on their individual situation. Believers of all people need to stop with the blanket “if you don’t take it you’re an evil monster” and “if you do take it, you’re an ignorant fool” rhetoric where we assume everyone fits into either of those 2 categories. The culture likes to play this game where everyone is either insanely wrong on one side, or insanely wrong on the other, where they act like those are the only 2 choices. Perhaps, just maybe, there are more than 2 boxes to put people in…

  126. Jean says:

    “You know what the BEST plan is for us as believers? Go to Doctor Jesus and talk to him.”

    For medical or vaccine advice?

  127. Steve says:

    Jean, yes I meant mrna vaccines not viruses. Typo. Thank you Jean you are like my personal grammer and spell checker. However you get caught up in the small things and miss the forest through the trees. You still never answered how I was played. I’m only aware of two mnra vaccines in the united states. I can’t say for sure if the FDA approved them officially or if they just approved for emergency use. My comment was other countries are developing mnra vaccines. My original comment I meant to say Covid vaccines and not mrna vaccines specifically. But you will never answer how I’ve been played because your comment was never meant to be charitable.

  128. Officerhoppy says:

    Jean
    I did just that—and He told me to get the vaccine.

    Others “hear” differently. So is God confused?or just subjective?

    Rhetorical question

  129. JD says:

    Em Ten Commandments
    E Nearer My God to Thee
    Dm Fear Not For Behold/Glory to God in the Highest
    D Away in a Manger
    C Silent Night

    My Christmas Wish List of worship songs that will reach the most people I will sing to and all heaven will join in I hope as my wife, daughter, and I are seated in the heavenlies. After a lifetime on earth in preparation, even I can’t top that.
    Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

  130. Nathan Priddis says:

    Jean, at some point it makes sense to call out to God..for ganja..not answers.

    Given the current state of affairs, maybe the Lord feels the need to roll one off as well.

  131. Em says:

    Officerhoppy @ 11:43
    Nope – some music DOES call for a really good drummer (one who keeps the beat, but doesn’t drown out everyone else). IMNSHO… Again. 😘

  132. Jean says:

    “I did just that—and He told me to get the vaccine.

    Others “hear” differently. So is God confused?or just subjective?”

    This is another reason why discussion is impossible. Once someone is getting directions from God, the discussion is over. Who would dare contradict God?

  133. Dave says:

    Josh & Michael,

    “Respect for real expertise is at an all-time low.”

    “Save those discussions for our doctors.” “Nothing good can come from these online discussions.”

    Both of your comments resonate with me for several reasons. I still believe we can ‘agree to disagree’ when faced with an impasse on a volatile topic.

    I have discussed (as Josh advised) the COVID vaccine with my own PCP, whom I respect and have a good rapport with. My PCP was uncharacteristically forceful in her counsel advising for the vaccine.

    Several months prior to my MD visit, I’d been closely monitoring the global COVID statistics, VAERS entries and studies which Dr. Robert Malone (vacinologist, mrna co-developer) posts on his social media account. Replying to my PCP’s query as to my hesitancy to receive the vaccine …I began citing some of the epidemiological, peer-reviewed research data that (in my eyes) was most influential:

    India’s tremendous success in neutralizing COVID through the ‘off-label’ use of Ivermectin. The same physician whom rapidly cured Joe Rogan’s symptoms of COVID with a treatment protocol including Ivermectin, has provided the same unapproved, ‘voodoo healthcare’ to more than 200 of our nations politicians. (ironically, those whom pushed for withholding the ‘off-label’ use of Ivermectin …directly owe their recovery to it!)

    The inability of any physician to provide a patient with medico-legal qualifying ‘informed consent’ for the COVID vaccine. The curious litigation immunity protections granted to Pfizer, Moderna and J&J have under Emergency Authorization, which inoculating the drug makers from medico-legal culpability for any injuries/deaths resulting from adverse effects tied to their products.

    Ignored Whistle-blower testimony & photographic evidence documenting unacceptable levels of compromise in a recent vaccine research study funded by a COVID vaccine manufacturer. Any conclusions drawn from the study would be invalidated to the significant breach in laboratory test
    protocols: Unsafe, careless vaccine/specimen collection, spoilation of ‘blind test’ specimens (labelled with patient names).

    I was disappointed that my PCP was unaware of the peer-reviewed research studies appearing in respected medical journals and discussed within the COVID Healthcare Summits attended by thousands of renowned medical research scientists, physicians and epidemiologists whom convened to sign a Medical Petition expressing grave reservations about these particular vaccines, conflicts-of-interest between government and the Pharmacological Industrial Complex, problematic ‘gaming of statistical data’ by drug manufacturers to promote their product …while simultaneously lobbying legislatures to withhold emergency authorization use for ‘off-label’ anti-malarial/parasitic drugs (Hydroxychloroquin, Ivermectin) …the effective dosages of which, cost just pennies.

    Then again, she works at a Piedmont facility in Georgia, the same corporation that just terminated a highly accomplished physician in Atlanta …for declining the jab. She is likely under pressure to ‘toe the company line’ and dutifully recite an aggressively Pro-vaccine script. Although the physician Piedmont fired, was quickly hired in an Alabama hospital, such reticence by medical professionals to succumb to this particular vaccine …gives pause for thought.

    So, I do maintain that ‘something good’ has come from ‘discussing this on the interwebs’ (Dr. Malone’s twitter page) I’ve been made aware of highly relevant, impartial scientific/medical research occurring independently of pharmaceutical industry-bias with a financial interest in a given outcome.

    And yes, I did discuss this with my MD (…to our mutual frustration). Finally, I wouldn’t know whom else to turn for an ‘expert opinion’ but a medical physician and researcher whom has dedicated their career specializing in the development of vaccines.

    Dr. Malone is anything BUT an ‘anti-vaxxer’ …as a vacinologist, he is eminently qualified to proffer an authoritative viewpoint on the safety/efficacy of COVID vaccines. As a co-inventor of the mrna technology used in these vaccines …I cannot conceive of how one could legitimately dismiss or censor his conclusions.

    The information is available to any whom may care …consider it if you wish, ‘no harm, no foul’ if you don’t. I seek no quarrel with anyone, and y’all are still my brothers and sisters if we don’t perceive the vaccine issue the same.

  134. Em says:

    Reading the comments….. Pondering…..
    Many docs rely on the pharmaceutical companies for their med updates….
    God keep

  135. Officerhoppy says:

    Em @ 2:07
    Agreed. I have no problems with drums in worship. I might question if he did a song in 7/8 time or 5/4, or q drum solo. (Although I once gave the drummer a solo in “little Drummer Boy”) 🙂

  136. Michael says:

    I don’y buy Malone…he comes off as a bitter man who thinks he’s been refused his due credit.
    The studies on Ivermectin and hydrochloroquin have not shown any efficacy thus far.

    Rogan took monoclonal antibodies…which are proven to be efficacious.

  137. Michael says:

    I have no opinions on “worship”…especially when it’s limited to music.
    I have likes and preferences, but that’s all they are.

  138. Officerhoppy says:

    Michael
    Good point. For clarification my focus has been on corporate worship

  139. Michael says:

    Officerhoppy,

    I’m a contrarian and have always found ‘corporate worship” a barrier to piety.
    I fully understand I’m in a tiny minority…

  140. Em says:

    It’s a 15 mile drive down out of these mountains – sometimes I break out singing praises to God (This is My Father’s World, etc.) Alone in the car, I think I sound great, but I probably don’t….. LOL

  141. Steve says:

    I don’t know Malone but how do you legitimately discredit someone in age of cancel culture? What is the difference between cancel and discredit?

  142. Michael says:

    Steve,

    He’s been discredited by scientists that I trust…but everyone thinks there experts are right.
    We have no standards for truth anymore.

  143. josh hamrick says:

    Em, I bet you sound great!

  144. Michael says:

    My idea of “worship” music…

  145. josh hamrick says:

    Nothing wrong with that.

  146. Jean says:

    So Michael, have you given up on the Anglican thing? I ask, not to be argumentative, because I understand the Anglican Church has a rich history of hymnody and reverent worship.

  147. Michael says:

    So Jean, I never said a fricking word about “the Anglican thing”…which I forget more about before I had coffee this morning than you know.

    There is a massive difference between leading a liturgical service and my personal preferences and prejudices.

    I’ve given up on nothing concerning my involvement in the communion.

  148. Michael says:

    I have spent most of life in evangelical churches…and I have strong and obnoxious opinions about the musical portion of the services.

    That…is what I was referring to.

  149. Michael says:

    The closest worship to the early church is probably Reformed psalm singing without instrumental accompiniment.

    I participated in this nightly in Geneva…and it sounded like a kennel around dinner time…

  150. Jean says:

    Michael,

    “There is a massive difference between leading a liturgical service and my personal preferences and prejudices.”

    Are you saying that you lead a service that, as regards music, you personally despise?

    I’m trying to understand what you’re saying.

    I personally have a high church preference. American Lutherans adopted a lot of good liturgy and hymnody from Anglicanism.

  151. josh hamrick says:

    One of the older churches in uptown Charlotte has been converted into a theater. (Well, several really). I saw a touring version of Sound of Music there a couple of years ago. There was a scene where 3 nuns sang an acapella hymn.
    I choked up.

  152. Michael says:

    Jean,

    “Are you saying that you lead a service that, as regards music, you personally despise?”

    I never said anything remotely close to that.
    Never said a word about hymnody.

    Not one.

    The discussion was about contemporary worship.

  153. Michael says:

    josh,

    Acapella singing can be beautiful.
    A bunch of people struggling with what passes for a tune can sound like a car wreck in progress…

  154. Jean says:

    The earliest Christian singing is taught in the NT:

    “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.”

    Instrumental accompanyment is neither required nor forbidden.

  155. Michael says:

    None of us here knew that…

  156. josh hamrick says:

    I thought your kennel around dinner time comment was hilarious. I also found it humorous that I was caught up in rapture during a matinee showing of Sound of Music 🙂

  157. Jean says:

    Michael,

    What did you mean by this:

    “I’m a contrarian and have always found ‘corporate worship” a barrier to piety.”?

  158. Michael says:

    Exactly what I said in the context I said it.

    Doing a report for the bishop?

  159. Jean says:

    No, just trying to understand what you believe. Are you leading services that you believe are a barrier to piety, or is there another interpretation of your words?

  160. josh hamrick says:

    For what its worth, I understood the comment.

  161. josh hamrick says:

    I’m doing a Christmas service this year where Mary picks up the baby and starts singing Sweet Child of Mine by Guns n Roses.

  162. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I’ll write slowly so you can follow.

    The discussion was about worship in evangelical churches.

    An Anglican Church is not an evangelical church.

    I personally, me, myself, I…have always found the musical portion of evangelical worship services a barrier to piety.

    The cacophony of Reformed psalm singing may be worse.

    The fault lies in my own soul, I’m sure.

    I have no issues with the various forms of worship in the Anglican liturgy.

    Any further questions must be mailed along with a self addressed, stamped envelope.

  163. Jean says:

    Okay, Michael, thank you for the clarification. I think it benefited us both.

  164. Michael says:

    ” I think it benefited us both.”
    Speak for yourself…

  165. Jean says:

    I am.

  166. Michael says:

    “I’m doing a Christmas service this year where Mary picks up the baby and starts singing Sweet Child of Mine by Guns n Roses.”

    Acapella?

  167. Em says:

    Interesting thoughts on music here….
    I fell asleep last night with the radio on and woke up some time in the middle of the night to a man singing, “softly, I will leave you softly…..long before you wake up and find me gone…”. That is how my husband passed away while I slept in the bed next to him…
    Sometimes secular music does have a lot of good feelings/emotions expressed

  168. Michael says:

    Em,

    I’m starting to listen to some music again…I find it very painful at times.

    Of course, most of what I listen to is gut bucket country…so it’s supposed to hurt…

  169. Michael says:

    I should note that I’ve listened to Jerry Lee every day of my 63 + years…even before…..so don’t use my play lists…or my tastes…

  170. Dave says:

    Michael,

    “I don’y buy Malone…he comes off as a bitter man who thinks he’s been refused his due credit.”

    I wouldn’t attempt to challenge the personal impressions you’ve drawn from Malone’s deportment, as I hadn’t run across any footage among several hours of medical research seminar videos in which he appeared, that was potentially objectionable to me. (maybe I missed it)

    Nonetheless, I do understand how a person’s demeanor can distract from their intended message. To my shame, I recall far too many times in which my deeply flawed ‘delivery’, sadly diminished any value
    my intended message contained 🙁

    We probably all know folks whom still unquestionably entrust their own (and their family’s) livelihood to Dr. Fauci …and would vigorously defend his every word and action.

    Perhaps the other renowned medical researchers & physicians whom are co-signatories of the COVID Treatment Declaration whom hold in high regard, Malone’s credentials, while publicly expressing the same conclusions …exhibit less offensive behavior while citing facts that are equal-to-more compelling? https://globalcovidsummit.org/

    I truly don’t have a ‘horse in this race’. No money invested or employment contingent upon vaccination status. But I do know folks whom have died of heart related complications & stroke, shortly after the jab. Understandably, personal anecdotes while not proving anything conclusively, do contribute to one’s convictions.

  171. Michael says:

    I’m not a Fauci fan at this point…but neither am I a fan of some of the people on that consortium…

  172. josh hamrick says:

    “I’m doing a Christmas service this year where Mary picks up the baby and starts singing Sweet Child of Mine by Guns n Roses.”

    Acapella?”

    Yes! Dressed as a nun! Oh, this is going to be the year I finally get fired!

  173. Steve says:

    Dave, my sister got a life threatening pulmonary embolism shortly after her jab. Can I prove it had anything to do with the vaccine? No, but you are absolutely right it certainly does add to our own personal convictions.

  174. Dave says:

    Steve,

    Sorry to hear of your sister’s adverse response …I’m assuming she’s since recovered? Yes, the classic rhetorical maxim certainly applies; “Correlation does not equal causation”.

    I’ve seen a disturbingly large number of physicians, nurses and medical techs share their profound distrust of this particular class of vaccines, and have subsequently declared their ‘freedom of conscience’ employment exit-strategy to their HR administrator.

    Setting aside everyone’s version of Vacinology/Epidemiology 101: ‘damned lies/statistics’ …this fact alone, that so many healthcare professionals are walking away from their financial security, versus allowing this vaccine into their body …is a tacitly undeniable ‘warning sign’ that privileged first-person observations within a clinical setting, reflect legitimate safety concerns …that is hard for me to ignore.

  175. filistine says:

    Duane commented earlier about the paucity of vaccinations in the third world–not because of unwillingness, but because of supply shortages while first world nations are rolling up sleeves for a third round. It is for that reason that I’m forgoing a booster. It is a simple way of protesting the ‘us first’ mindset. I understand Xenia’s comment about everyone getting the jab earlier–but that wasn’t accurate in that the virus still runs rampant in third world countries & the mutants will come to our shores eventually. My concern is the lack of honesty about natural immunity for those who’ve had the virus, lack of honest research about complications (whether caused or coincidental), and utter lack of concern about vast reaches of the world without access to an initial vaccine. Those who feign outrage over the piddling percentage of those not vaccinated seem unwilling to acknowledge the hollowness of their spite when their heroes in the charge to jab are functionally inconsistent with hastening to provide adequate supplies to developing nations. Shameful.

  176. josh hamrick says:

    Oh yeah, this is going well.

  177. Michael says:

    Well said, fil…

  178. filistine says:

    JoshH @ 5:38
    a performance I’d pay to see! 🙂

  179. pslady says:

    I’m a little late to the vaccine debate….first stating that I am not anti-vacs. I received my fist & only Moderna shot on February 18th & my health has not been the same since…trips to Urgent Care & ER…it really affected my heart. Symptoms ease a little then come roaring back & I am not a young woman so if I would contract covid I might have a time of it. I have no where to go to find out more about possible detrimental side effects. I absolutely agree with Michael …we need more information about these vaccines. I have never had problems with flu shots etc.

  180. Steve says:

    Dave,. Thanks for asking. Yes, my sister has recovered but we are still not sure if she will be on blood thinners for the rest of her life. I guess we can always blame it on COVID since she got that long before she was vaccinated and there is the issue. Is it covid or the vaccine that caused the PE? Other than those two sources, there is no feasible explanation. I’m convinced the vaccine has done harm to my sister who was otherwise able to perfectly fight the infection with their own immunity. Maybe if we could get some answers on the origin on COVID we could prevent a worse pandemic. Btw, covid didn’t start in some wet market in Wuhan. That’s been debunked.

  181. Michael says:

    pslady,

    Praying you are receiving good medical attention and are being heard.
    The impression I’m getting with online and offline conversations is that people who are injured are just collateral damage for the greater cause.
    Be your own advocate and make sure you get proper care.

  182. pslady says:

    Thanks for your advice Michael. My PCP is the only doctor who agrees that the shot may have affected me. All the docs at ER & Urgent Care skirt around & try to come up with other reasons why I am ill. Yep…collateral damage.

  183. Officerhoppy says:

    Michael
    Liked the JLL video. While i love that old tune, hard for me to think of him as a worship leader! hehe

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