Things I Think…
1. I received my ballot in the mail this morning and it triggered the election anxiety that I have been avoiding for a few weeks. I’m taking this as an opportunity to exercise spiritual disciplines such as trust,courage, and hope…and constantly remembering there are no elections in the kingdom I inhabit…
2. I have no doubt that my mail in ballot is secure and will be counted properly…the fastest way to dissolve a democracy is to cast doubt on the integrity of the voting process…
3. Corruption came into the church early after it’s ratification by the state…contemplatives left the main public witness of that church to preserve the faith once delivered…that may have to happen again...
4. So many of our basic decisions these days are potentially made on the basis of half truths and outright lies..how does a society survive such…or does it?
5. I was reminded of #4 when the pharmacist asked if I was getting a Covid shot this year…and there is so much disinformation out there that I can’t tell if I should or not…and that could be a life or death decision for me…
6. Logos bible software just moved to a subscription model…and for only 120.00 bucks a years I can…have another subscription draining my bank account one cut at a time…I’m so old I can remember when we used to buy a program once and own it…
7. I am a great devotee of Dietrich Bonhoeffer…not just because I think he speaks to our day (he does) but because he often seems to speak God’s words directly to me. At a time when he felt great contempt for the followers of Hitler and the Nazis, he wrote this:
“The danger of allowing ourselves to be driven to contempt for humanity is very real. We know very well that we have no right to let this happen and that it would lead us into the most unfruitful relation to human beings. The following thoughts may protect us against this temptation: through contempt for humanity we fall victim precisely to our opponents’ chief errors. Whoever despises another human being will never be able to make anything of him.
Nothing of what we despise in another is itself foreign to us. How often do we expect more of the other than what we ourselves are willing to accomplish. Why is it that we have hitherto thought with so little sobriety about the temptability and frailty of human beings? We must learn to regard human beings less in terms of what they do and neglect to do and more in terms of what they suffer. The only fruitful relation to human beings—particularly to the weak among them—is love, that is, the will to enter into and to keep community with them. God did not hold human beings in contempt but became human for their sake.”
8. Speaking of the eminent Bonhoeffer…his family and virtually every real Bonhoeffer scholar have repudiated Eric Metaxas’s insipid biography of the theologian…as does anyone who has actually read Bonhoeffer…
9. The Christian life is not an accessory to the life you already have, but a radical transformation of life itself. Anything less is religion,not faith…
10. Somewhere around 60-70% of the communication I get on theological matters concerns LGBTQ inclusion in the full life of the church. Most of my correspondents support this, at least privately. I will note that these are some of the most intelligent, devoted, Christ followers I know. Just checking the pulse here…how much does this issue matter to you?
#10 – From a strictly logical stance, I believe there are men who were born with an attraction to men and women born with an attraction to women. These seem to be facts to me. That there are men who “identify” as women and women as men seems to be less than fact and more about feelings. It opens the door to men who are transexuals (crossdressers) and are attracted to women. All kinds of confusion emerges with anything past the first 2-3 letters, especially the concept of fluidity.
As you can see, I can’t begin to address the LGBTQ inclusion issue without pissing off everyone on both sides.
#6…this one REALLY aggravates me to no end. Worse is that one of my subscriptions…if you don’t re-subscribe, you get locked out of the software…I’m looking in your direction Corel Painter!. My other subscriptions…I can still use the software if I don’t re-subscribe…just can’t get updates or support.
Michael,
I’m kind of where Terry is. I want to see LGBTQ people coming to church and finding the Lord. However, I do not want them declaring that gender is fluid and that their lifestyle should be considered “normal”, anymore than I want adulterers thinking they are “normal.” I am firmly committed to the biblical understanding of marriage-one man and one woman for life, and no sexual activity outside of the marriage covenant. I know that things happen to ruin marriages, but when someone attends to church to purposefully upset the fruit basket, assuming that they can take any and all responsibilities in the church because they are the same as everyone else, I draw a very firm line (actually, my church does). We don’t discourage gay people from attending, and we are kind and considerate, but we expect members to be people who are in a close relationship with Christ, following a biblical lifestyle in terms of their sexual lives.
The reason for the strong stance-several years ago we had two moms in the Sunday School whose daughters had decided they were trans. Both took on a masculine appearance (not just the jeans and t-shirt thing) and tried to make the youth group believe that they had been “freed” from their previously awful life. The moms expressed that trans was very normal and proving to be great for their kids. They expected the church to adjust to them. When that didn’t happen, and they were asked to soften their strong message, they left.
I know that sexual sin is one of the hardest things to deal with in the church-both in leadership and the laity. But, I also believe that God’s Word is clear on the matter. If someone visits the church I attend who is gay/lesbian/trans and just wants to attend, we will welcome and share the gospel. if they want us to change for them, that won’t happen as we believe God’s Word would not allow it.
Thanks Terry and Linn…I have a rather muddled view myself.
I can’t find anything in Scripture or the moral tradition to support it…but I’m open to being wrong.
Dan,
I hate it with Microsoft Office and I already hate this change to something I use everyday…
Homosexual persons are certainly welcome to attend our services. We are a spiritual emergency room, after all. They will not be permitted to be disruptive, that is, no homosexual regalia, at least after the first few visits. They will not be permitted to be alone with children. If they are being drawn to Christ and are willing to repent and be baptized, all we can do is rejoice. One of my favorite Christian monastics followed the homosexual life in San Francisco a few decades ago before his conversion to Orthodox Christianity and he is probably going to be recognized as a Saint in the Church pretty soon.
A homosexual visitor will not be permitted to have any perverse influence in our parish. We will not be “dialoging” with the person. He or she will be in the position of a learner, not an influencer. As for transgenders, we will not support them in their delusions but will be as kind as possible, working towards their healing and salvation.
We all of us were guilty of some pretty sinful stuff before we came to the Lord. A visiting homosexual who wants to repent is no worse than a repentant shoplifter or a repentant gossip. And such were some (all) of us.
As with all us sinners, we are the ones that need to change, not the Church. It could happen that a visiting homosexual or transgender person is intractable and disruptive and will be asked to leave.
I am not muddled. Don’t be muddled. You know what’s right and what’s wrong.
I agree with Linn.
P.S. #9, I believe, is what leads to #10.
Xenia,
There are pastoral complexities that muddle things.
If someone was born with same sex attraction we are asking that they live single and celibate lives forever.
That …is a really big ask.
If they were born gay and are leading single, celibate lives, how can we exclude them from any part of the church?
further muddling is that some gay folk use the same arguments we use to condemn slavery…which the Bible doesn’t…
Finally…the heterosexual Christian is often a poor example of fidelity to biblical mores…yet they get full inclusion constantly.
Aren’t you yourself living a single celibate life Michael?
I believe that a person who is attracted to someone of the same sex and out of good morals, never acts on it, is a virtuous person and is no more danger to a congregation than adulterous evangelical pastor.
In many churches there are unmarried people, either always single, or divorced, or widowed. We certainly expect them to remain chaste… don’t’ we?
Almost every church I have ever been a part of has a few middle -aged people who, for whatever reason, fervently desire to be married but can’t find a spouse. We expect them to remain chaste… don’t we?
Xenia,
‘Aren’t you yourself living a single celibate life Michael?”
Yep, for almost 40 years…and it’s the most unnatural, unhealthy, and difficult road imaginable.
Especially as you age with no family and no help…
I know of what I speak…
Michael, God bless you.
Michael, for me it’s only been 5 years, and it sucks. I can’t imagine 40 years.
As far as inclusion of LGBT folks in the church, I fall in line with what commenters above have said.
CK,
It didn’t bother me much until it became difficult to handle everything on my own…then I realized I may have paid a big price for autonomy…
…how much does this issue matter to you?
It tells me >everything< about us.
#10 – what does love…
…look like?
…act like?
…sound like?
…taste like?
…feel like?
…smell like?
Faith without works is… loveless.
Just for discussion: To say a baby is born sexually active and thus can be determined as either homosexual or heterosexual from or at birth is just at this time nothing else but false ludicrous nonsense.
Is there such a thing as gay DNA or lesbian chromosomes? If there is I haven’t heard of it.
8. Eric Metaxas…now there’s a very special kind of stupid.
Speaking of Bonhoeffer, he’s been factoring in pretty heavily in the Exile & Empire project I have been working on. Here’s one segment:
https://www.tiktok.com/@relic2024/video/7417898255029259550
With regards to LGBQT inclusion. What exactly does that look like?
I oppose it. One of the major reasons I oppose it is that it leads to massive confusion in the Church. Particularly with young people and gender.
I’ve seen this story a 100x. Often once LGBQT is accepted within the church we see a very quick shift into transgender ideology and a very low view of scripture and a progression into alternative life styles. Eventually such churches die as they no longer even see the Bible as authoritative. It is a recipe for disaster.
I have family that are LGB, and I could no sooner reject them based on those secondary identities than I could my own son. I have never met these LGBTQ people who are forcing an agenda down children’s throats or calling for the death of naysayers. Never once. Let me repeat, not ever. These are not people I would consider to be perverts in any way, and people who I would consider to be genuine in those identities completely.
I know TQ as well. All the love for Q. It’s a rough place to be. T, however…
I believe that people can be brought up in an environment that teaches them some odd things. It conditions them to question their sexual identity. I accept that people can decide that they are another gender. It is a mental state. I can even believe that from childhood, one can experience dysmorphia both mentally and physically. What I won’t accept is what flys in the face of the science. The reason why I say that, and why it is important is because a man can not actually physically be a woman. Period. There is a slippery slope with just accepting a woman as a man, man as a woman when it comes to SOME things. The fact is that chromosomes don’t lie about what they are. People can disagree, but feelings on this are not a valid argument against science.
I say all of this from the cheap seats, but consider abhorrent the treatment from Christianity and/or the political Right.
Apologies, this is pre-coffee. I can’t even see my phone screen right atm…
Let me first say that it must be very tough for anyone who experiences same sex attraction or gender dysphoria to navigate life, even more so navigating it in the church. I don’t think anyone just chooses to feel that way. While science has never found a “gay gene” or a “transgender gene”, it would seem that some combination of biology, psychology, environment, experience, and the fall of man causes people to feel these ways. Those who are born intersex I chalk up totally to the fall of man/creation.
I also don’t think we can construe or finagle Scripture in any faithful way to dismiss its teachings that homosexual activity is wrong, marriage is to be between one man and one woman, and God created two distinct sexes – male and female. The Church should be both faithful to these teachings and extra compassionate to those who experience such struggles. Seemingly what we have seen many times is churches being honorable on the one aspect, but failing on the other.
As Christians, our first identity should always be as being in Christ, being children of God. All other identities, though of some importance, should never be pushed to the point of causing dissension and discord. Those pushing the Church to accept all things LGBTQ+ are in the wrong, and I also think it is wrong for a Christian who experiences such things to emphasize their identity as a “gay Christian” or a “transgender Christian”, and certainly is wrong for them to engage in homosexual or transgender activity or action. But I also think it is wrong for a church to exclude, look down upon, or treat adversely a Christian who does honestly feel that they are gay or transgender, yet chooses to stay faithful to the teachings of Scripture. I think such a Christian deserves extra kudos and certainly not exclusion in any way, for bravely and devotedly dealing with something that most of the rest of us will never have to.
I agree with Kevin’s position, pretty much word for word.
I would like to add that, while many in conservative Christianity is preoccupied with the topic of homosexuality and transgenderism, our culture is saturated in heterosexual pornography, R and MA rated streaming, and alcohol addiction.
I wonder if the conservative church is speaking with as much vigor to the sin that resides within the congregation as it does to the sin that resides in pagan culture and apostate church bodies?
Good morning Michael,
With respect to Logos, I would heartily, heartily, heartily recommend “The Word” as your alternative. I have been using it for many years as “the ‘poor-man’s Logos”. It’s Public Domain Biblical texts and lexical works are excellent, most of their texts have been lemmatized, and they are lemmatizing the remainders. The “commercial” works they offer – at least in the Biblical Texts and Dictionary categories, are professional level, and they work hard to obtain them at affordable prices.
I am not a sales person and receive no benefit from this, except the satisfaction of recommending to ministers of the Word a tool that will get the job done for them, produced by an organization that is more ministry-minded than commercially-minded.
There are other good tools. I don’t have the same “negative bias” towards Accordance that I have towards Logos – it’s just that Accordance does cost a bit more, and in my current situation, The Word has rendered it unnecessary.
I’d be happy to discuss The Word more in depth with anyone who might be interested.
The only critical lexical tool The Word is missing right now – HALOT. If they had HALOT, you’d never need to look anywhere else.
…but again, that is just one user’s considered opinion…
Terrie R. Beede,
I’m into Logos about 15 grand and a couple grand into Accordance.
I’m big on having the latest commentaries on anything I’m teaching and researching…kind of compulsive about it.
Logos has cornered that market…
I was ok with the program…it’s actually invaluable in a lot of ways, but I’m dead tired of being monetized.
I think I have enough in both programs to take me home now.
Depending on how you use bible software, The word make work for some folks.
Thanks for pointing to it.
Reuben,
You were pretty articulate for having had no coffee… 😉
I never did tests for any other sins upon entering the church. If we did, no one could serve. Lets love people and let Jesus deal with their sin.
Josh,
I wish it were that simple.
Do you ignore a husband abusing his wife or children?
What sin do we look the other way at and which ones do we intercede in?
Thats my point. In general, (and thank god I’m no longer in ministry) we ignore all those sins. Before a family joins the church do you ask them if the father is abusive? I’ve never heard that conversation. Do you ask them if they’ve lied anytime recently, dealt with business in an honest and ethical manner?
No, in general, we don’t care about any of that stuff, but the slightest sniff of gayness and we lose our minds.
I also think we just don’t understand what’s going on with the trans people, and shouldn’t be so quick to condemn. Love, listen, empathize and see how we can better serve them.
Josh,
I care deeply about that stuff…
Does the church have a moral ethic or does it not?
“but the slightest sniff of gayness and we lose our minds.”
That’s definitely been true of a good many and it is rank hypocrisy.
However, I think more of the concern here are when people in the church want to actively live out their gayness or transgenderness without any repentance and with claims or expectations that is should be accepted as being okay. That is when it becomes truly problematic. Rarely does a father live openly with their abusiveness in front of the church or a person lives openly with their dishonest business practices in front of the church, expecting that it all just be accepted to be okay. However, more and more this has become the case in the church with LGBTQ+ issues, and they just can’t be ignored when they are actively known.
“Does the church have a moral ethic or does it not?”
In the realm of the theoretical, the answer is yes. In the realm of the practical, not so much. While we are willing to theorize and often pontificate on the subject of LGBTQ behavior, are we willing to employ such scrutiny on the subject of divorce or premarital sex? Perhaps it is best to be agnostic on some subjects. There is nothing wrong with saying, “I don’t know” or “I might be wrong”…
“Does the church have a moral ethic or does it not?”
It does, a very hypocritical ethic that ends up keeping a lot of people away.
If Jesus is not capable of dealing with other people’s sins, there’s certainly nothing I can do about it.
The truth is very few gay people, and almost no trans people will ever even consider showing up at a conservative church, so we may all be worrying about nothing. We’ve done a good job of letting them know they are not welcome.
“The truth is very few gay people, and almost no trans people will ever even consider showing up at a conservative church…”
Josh, that may be your truth, but it certainly is not mine. I have always been involved with churches on the conservative side of the Episcopal Church. In each of the congregations, there were numerous gay parishioners. Dealing with this in a pastoral manner was of vital importance. It was an issue that we had to struggle with and could not be solved by simple dismissal of the problem…
Good words Duane and Josh!
Josh,
I think the greater possibilities are those who are raised in a conservative church (and are still attending it) and others who attend a conservative church and secretly struggle with such issues, who at some point then let their struggles be known and/or start publicly acting out on their feelings. These scenarios likely happen far more than already openly gay or transgender people deciding to start regularly attending a conservative church.
It is for scenarios like these that are bound to happen, that a church ought to have a posture prepared as to how to care for these people and situations.
Admittedly, many have taken a harmful hypocritical approach. But I don’t think we can use that as a reason to just blow off this issue and act as if there is nothing happening or nothing that needs to be attended to.
Duane – my truth is I am no longer in ministry. I can freely love and accept gay and trans people now, and let God worry about all of our deficiencies.
I should have have added “evangelical” to my “conservative church”, because that was my experience, and I think is an accurate statement.
Kevin, I mean, you can run them out of the church, which is the usual response. You can try to pray the gay away, which is always harmful. Or you can love them like family, knowing that families are made up of different people with different struggles.
Josh,
Most certainly I think a church should love them like family. Love, care, and compassion should be the lead. But part of love is also being able to tell them that certain things are not okay. I don’t think one can be a Christian and then take issues that the Bible speaks to and act as if they don’t matter. That does not mean that each and every Christian needs to get actively involved in every issue going on around them, but church leaders are tasked with caring for their people, and if someone is struggling with such issues, the onus is on the leadership to help them through it.
“I don’t think one can be a Christian and then take issues that the Bible speaks to and act as if they don’t matter.”
Sure you can. We all do it every single day with dozens of other issues. This is the one sticking point for conservative evangelicals. We ignore most of the rest of it.
You are right, we can, and we do.
Yet, that does not mean that we should. We shouldn’t ignore what the Bible teaches about loving others (who is our neighbor), caring extra for the poor and disadvantaged, lust, marriage, honesty, etc. Many conservative evangelicals need to get their places in shape and start caring about these other things that they often ignore, especially when those other things are often more plentiful or prominent in their lives and environment, than are LGBTQ+ issues. But that doesn’t mean that LGBTQ+ issues should then just be forgotten about, especially for those conservative Christians and churches who do honestly deal with those other issues, too.
Josh,
I ‘m sure that you have read a good many of my writings here. How many of them involve blasting (or even mildly criticizing) people about LGBTQ+ issues versus how many deal with criticism of Christian behaviors in partisan politics, immigration, hypocrisy, etc.?
As a conservative evangelical who does honestly try to deal more with issues that the Bible addresses and I believe are more prominent in plaguing the church, am I then still to ignore LGBTQ+ issues when they arise because many of my fellow conservative evangelicals have dealt with them poorly and hypocritically?
I feel confident that if Jesus were on earth today he would be hanging out with the LGBT crowd, and they would consider him a friend and ally. Conservative evangelicals would accuse him of condoning sin, or more likely, of being gay himself, much like what happened in his day.
It just doesn’t matter. We all have our individual struggles and we are all soft on the sins we like. Waking up tomorrow and trying again is a win. So whatever it takes to make that happen, I’m for.
“I feel confident that if Jesus were on earth today he would be hanging out with the LGBT crowd, and they would consider him a friend and ally. Conservative evangelicals would accuse him of condoning sin, or more likely, of being gay himself, much like what happened in his day.” – Agree
“It just doesn’t matter.” – Disagree 😉
You obviously have gone through a burnout with church and evangelical Christianity and I’m not placing any blame on you for that. Dealing with the seeming sinful aspects of LGBTQ+ very well may not be the place for you at this time, if ever. But I still don’t think that excuses the church to ignore it, too, especially those churches that have been more faithful in trying to address all the issues that the Bible addresses.
I don’t know that I qualify as a ‘conservative” Christian anymore…my view of Scripture doesn’t fit that category well.
I do believe the Scripture has authority as does the Christian tradition.
I wish I could simply dismiss the sexual orientation issue, but I can’t.
“It just doesn’t matter.” – Disagree
To make my point, the church has been clear on its stance against homosexuality for 2,000 years. Has this stopped anyone from being homosexual? Including priests and pastors?
So, there really hasn’t been much confusion for 2,000 years that the church condemns homosexuality, yet some people, including the church’s own members and leaders are still homosexual.
Is doubling down again for the 4,000th time gonna stop anyone from being homosexual? Or is it just going to stop them from coming to church?
We all choose which direction we want to go with some bible passages, because its not always consistent. So, we say the greater message is that God is sovereign, so we understand this passage in that light…etc. I think, regardless of the passages that seem to disagree, if we can say Jesus would treat these people like this…then we ought to do so too.
“We all choose which direction we want to go with some bible passages, because its not always consistent.”
Josh,
Is there a single passage in Scripture that supports homosexuality?
Maybe the historical condemnation of homosexuality by the church is because that is what the Bible clearly teaches.
There’s lots of things that the bible “clearly teaches” that the church has fought from every direction for centuries. So, I don’t take that as a slam dunk.
I do not propose that there is any passage supporting homosexuality, but there is a much greater arch supporting unconditional love and acceptance. I’ve already given the example of how I think Jesus would act if living in our culture right now, and that is based on biblical passages.
Jesus associated with sinners because the Great Physician went to where the sick people were (spiritually speaking). He went to heal them spiritually, he went to find what was lost.
The Pharisees didn’t want his healing, because they denied their own sickness.
Jesus didn’t say to the Pharisees “your divorce custom is okay, keep on writing those letters of divorce.” He held them to God’s standard.
And BTW, true love is not acceptance, it is wanting the best for the object of your love. The best for someone is never at odds with God’s laws for how we should live.
Ok. Those walls work for you. That is the standard conservative Christian answer.
I am outside those walls now and free to love and accept people, get to know them, try to understand them…all things I was not free to do before.
As an outsider, I really shouldn’t engage in these conversations because it is beating my head against the wall, as much as you guys doubling down on your condemnation is beating your heads against the wall…but Michael is my friend and lets hang out.
Josh,
There are people who are adulterers who are part of the church and are in leadership, but that doesn’t make it right. Child molesters as well, by the way.
Also, there is a difference between associating with sinners as Jesus did, and supporting the sin. I have friends of all kinds of persuasions, and when they ask me what I think, I respond with the Gospel and biblical teaching. If they don’t like it, we may not be friends anymore, but I can’t tell them it’s okay to be doing what Scripture clearly says is sin.
I’ve heard from a lot of sincere believers the last day or so.
They would hold to basic beliefs such as the Apostles Creed.
I don’t doubt their faith at all.
They don’t read the Bible like “conservative” Christians do and they believe the arc of Scripture always leans toward inclusion.
I think “the church” will look much differently in a few years…
As for true love vs. acceptance – Again, I’ll point to Jesus’ example. He accepts an awful lot of messed of people. There were behaviors in my life that I didn’t even realize were wrong for decades. He just took me in, mess and all. Again, if that wasn’t the way he loved, none of us would be here.
Linn, I have the liberty of maybe not even being a Christian anymore. Now I get to act like Jesus acted.
Josh,
When Jesus encountered the woman caught in adultery, He did not condemn her and He first cared for her needs, which were great at that moment. Yet, He still did tell her to go and sin more, telling her not to continue in her lifestyle of adultery.
Jesus hung out with “sinners” and He accepted them as His friends. He did not exclude anyone from being His friend. When He did speak of sin, He so often more addressed the “religious” people, most especially the religious leaders, and appeared more concerned with their sins and attitudes toward sin than with those of the “sinners”. Yet no where do we see Jesus as part of His way of acceptance and inclusion of “sinners”, telling them that their sin was okay. In fact, we only have examples of the opposite, such as the woman caught in adultery.
Disagree. Everyone at the table with him was a sinner. He accepted them all.
That said, again, we are arguing different things. It’s just that taking a step away, I can see how weird some things look, and how we’ve always majored on things that really don’t matter.
My guess is if we changed our stances completely and said we totally welcome and accept our lgbt neighbors…they’d still make up a tiny percentage of the congregation. Most small churches in rural communities would still never encounter a gay person, much less a trans person. But in keeping up the stance, we keep a lot more from ever coming.
It’s so nice to be outside Christianity. I can love anyone from any background. Like Josh, I find it liberating.
Plus I can cuss! 😃
I’m a devout Christian and a devoted Anglican.
I can love anybody from any background as well.
Except people who don’t like cats.
They can go straight to hell. 🙂
Rumor has it that I have an advanced degree in cursing…
Cussing is an added bonus.
Another Bible software program…kind of neat.
https://www.stepbible.org
I find it ironic, (and the irony extends to my own church body) that whiule we are living in an age like no other with respect to access to a plethora of Bible study resources, yet the Christian church (at least in America) overall is less biblically literate and less orthodox than at any prior time in my lifetime.
I think there are a few different reasons for this condition.
The Sbc had an app called word search that I used and liked for several years, then logos bought it out…and logos was way better. For research and academic purposes, I found it invaluable.
Haven’t clicked on it on a couple years now 😄
My old man was a sailor, and I learned to cuss before I learned to walk. Some times ya just gotta call it as ya see it.
Over half the people in my DMin cohort were pro LGBTQ…. and militant as hell about it. No grace, no acceptance or tolerance of another view other than their own. Their blindness prevented them from seeing their inconsistency in calling anyone who disagreed with them narrow-minded. Total bulls#*+. Anything but ” the most intelligent, devoted, Christ followers I know.”
Michael, you are right about the anti-cat folk.
Mike, I must run in the wrong circles. I know quite a few advocates, but none militant. Ironically, I think in the past I have been a more “militant” advocate than some of my LGBTQ friends.
From my experience and viewpoint, most LGBTQ folks are not anywhere close to militant and rather just want to go about living their lives. Yes, there are some who are militant, but most seemingly are not.
Far more so, it seems that the majority of militant pro-LGBTQ folks are those who are not LGBTQ themselves, but have decided to take up the culture wars fight.
These discussions always seem a bit ambiguous to me. Everyone gravitates toward the favorite verse that “justifies’ their positon and then walks away loving the opposition just a little less than before.
Having reread this thread, what I am hearing from some is that the church has no authority in areas of morality because they have not been consistent in moral practice. While the church is not consistent, does that validate an argument against biblical teaching, or, the interpretation of that teaching? Are there then no standards that we can hold to? Should we just love everyone, and by that I mean accept everyone’s lifestyle and choices in a non-critical fashion, desiring mercy instead of sacrifice? And for that matter, what did YHWH mean when He said that? Does it apply in every situation? My question is, at what point do we then become a law unto ourselves—which is the definition of subjectivity? Can our own subjectivity—of which we all have—stand?
I think I’m the only one arguing the other side, and I’m not “in the church”, so my protesting really doesn’t matter. I’m speaking as a former insider, looking back at what now doesn’t make sense. Still, I’ll field a couple of pstrmike’s questions, as an outsiders perspective may be helpful in some way.
“Are there then no standards that we can hold to?”
Of course you can, but you are picking and choosing which hill you will die on. Homosexuality doesn’t seem like the right hill to me. Rape, child molestation…sure, if the culture shifts in favor of those things, it’ll be worth dying on those hills. We show love, acceptance, and grace towards adulterers, divorcees, etc…We should just take in homosexuals in the same manner. The line should be drawn when harm is being caused to another, particularly to one in a weaker position.
“Should we just love everyone, and by that I mean accept everyone’s lifestyle and choices in a non-critical fashion, ”
As stated, this could obviously be taken to an absurd level, but in the case of homosexuals – Yes! They should be loved and accepted.
“Desiring mercy instead of sacrifice? And for that matter, what did YHWH mean when He said that?”
Hoo boy. I have no clue what the Old Testament means about a bunch of stuff, and I really think that is the place that Evangelicals get messed up. Each verse in the 66 books is equal in power and emphasis because it is God’s word which cannot fail. (I realize Jesus quoted this, but still)
“My question is, at what point do we then become a law unto ourselves—which is the definition of subjectivity? ”
We already are. All of us. We absolutely pick and choose which sins to emphasize and which ones we are OK with.
pstrmike
We once had categories such as moral theology and Christian ethics which drew upon philosophical and theological constructs to provide, if not answers, at least guidance. That day, I’m afraid to say, is long gone. We can no longer agree, even on the underpinnings of theology and ethics, much less their practical applications…
Kevin, you are a very kind-hearted person and I admire that about you.
However, when there are Pride parades in every large city and men are naked or near naked and acting in the most transgressive ways in front of children; when the shopping districts of cities are festooned with Pride flags during Pride month; when stores feel obligated to display Pride placards in their windows, when artisans are forced to decorate cakes that go against their religious beliefs; when people who disagree with them are called haters, when Obama lit up the White House with Pride colors; when most of the people in the western world champion their cause; then I would call them, as a group, aggressive, entitled, arrogant and intolerant. As with all things, individuals may be very pleasant but as a group they have conquered the western world. And the acceptance of this group has emboldened many other groups more transgressive then them.
Thank you, Xenia, for the commendation. I can see that you get the heart and reasoning behind my writings, even as you certainly don’t always agree with everything. I wish more people (primarily Christians) were able to see that, rather than seeing me (and sometimes calling me) arrogant and judgmental.
I agree that Pride parades and other LGBTQ events and schemes are often troubling, sometimes seriously so. Even as I might not see everything as being quite as problematic as you do, there are certainly real problems. From my experience and observation, however, the greater amount of pressure and fanaticism to accept and validate all things LGBTQ actually comes more from people who are not LGBTQ than those who are. Yes, there are some crazy LGBTQ people who act obscenely and offensively in Pride parades and other venues, but I just think those who collectively act the most aggressively, offensively, and intolerantly on the subject are made up more of non-LGBTQ people than actual LGBTQ people. I could be wrong, that’s just my observation.
well said Xenia,
At one time, I worked in the Bay Area, and your description of your experience pretty much matched mine.
Duane,
I agree. Some of the best writings on Christian ethics do not land very hard on either side on many of the issues. I find that interesting, maybe an attempt to sell more books IDK. What I find interesting is that the ancient mystics and contemplatives—the desert fathers and mothers— placed a high emphasis on morality and ethics. The modern-day mystics are still concerned about ethics, but some of them (can’t quantify) at not as concerned with morality, particularly sexuality.
A friend who is a retired Episcopalian priest told me he affirms same-sex relationships, but will not officiate a same-sex wedding as he feels it violates the sacrament of marriage.
Josh,
I think we both agree that we all pick and choose. If we don’t have the freedom to do so, then the path we walk probably isn’t work traveling. Years ago, Xenia wrote something to the effect of saying, I don’t know who is saved and who is not, so I cannot affirm or deny their relationship with God. That is something that has made more sense to me over the years.
Kevin H,
Your observations about gays in events vs those you may work with or live near are on target. We have a number of gay faculty at my school. The ones I know (we have 300+ faculty) are kind and easy to get along with. They do not flaunt their gayness, but share when asked. We sometimes have enlightening conversations where I am able to share the gospel. They are sinners, just like all the other sinners in the world. I think we get so offended that we forget that Christians were once sinners, too. Now we’re forgiven.
Linn -Thanks
10: who the heck is sending you all the LGBT stuff?
It matters in that it’s a Gospel issue and people don’t HAVE TO identify with their sin.
I prayed with a young man who was out of the closet, living as a gay man for the better part of a decade.
when he came out of the closet, he said EVERY SINGLE ONE of his hetero friends supported him. When he repented and no longer identified as gay per 1 Corinthians 6:11, he said EVERY SINGLE ONE of his gay friends rejected him..2 violently.
It’s a rough issue…
I don’t want to be too simplistic….
There is room in the body for a WIDE variety of approaches…
Where do you see this all going and in what timeline, Michael? If you care to respond with specificity….
jtk,
Over my time here my main audience has been people who have undergone some form of religious abuse.
Over the last ten years that audience has skewed younger and many of those young people see me as someone they can trust to speak honestly to.
They aren’t interested in debating with evangelicals here, so they approach me through email or social media messaging.
There is also a growing body of independent research that validates what I’m seeing.
Opposition to homosexuality in general and gay relationships in particular is based on a biblical hermeneutic that more and more people in general and young people in particular are rejecting.
Part of this is also that academia has questioned this hermeneutic for decades, (longer, actually) and it takes generations for what is happening in academia to filter down to the pew level.
To put it even more simply, the Bible was weaponized against so many for so long that people are redefining what authority it has, if it has any at all.
The evangelical bent toward protecting authoritarians and abusers is now bearing the fruit I have consistently said it would.
American evangelicalism will also end up bearing the weight of supporting Trump…and that will be a heavy weight indeed.
My personal belief is that within the next five to ten years we’ll see the full effects of all this…and what we used to think we knew and what we thought would always be…will be almost completely devastated.
There will be a remnant…mainly in liturgical churches that haven’t bowed either knee in the culture wars.
“There will be a remnant…mainly in liturgical churches that haven’t bowed either knee in the culture wars.”
Not disagreeing with this, Michael; however, the one single attribute of a remnant of the Triune God will be faithfulness to the revealed, written, Word of God.
Jean,
We may define faithfulness differently…I reject inerrancy, but I try to be faithful to Jesus, not a book, however sacred or inspired.
Since the centennial of Christianity & Liberalism was a whole century ago last year I can’t resist tossing in this extensive quote (page 122):
Christianity will indeed accomplish many useful things in this world, but if it is accepted in order to accomplish those useful things it is not Christianity. Christianity will combat Bolshevism; but if it is
accepted in order to combat Bolshevism, it is not Christianity: Christianity will produce a unified nation, in a slow but satisfactory way; but if it is accepted in order to produce a unified nation, it is not
Christianity: Christianity will produce a healthy community; but if it is accepted in order to produce a healthy community, it is not Christianity: Christianity will promote international peace; but if it is accepted in order to promote international peace, it is not Christianity.
I’d say there are a few self-designated Christian Nationalists who probably actually read Machen’s Christianity & Liberalism and didn’t get that this passage could be about them, not that I don’t have some issues with Machen’s own ideas (he wasn’t as bad as R L Dabney on race but he was still unfortunately bad on that topic, as his row with Warfield demonstrated). The older I get the more and more grateful I am that my earliest exposure to Reformed and Calvinist thought was through the Native American PNW tribal side of my family and not the white Southern side, to be rather brusque about the point.
I’m not a theologian or a pastor. I don’t read Greek or Latin or Aramaic. I’m no scholar. So my words are nothing but just that, my words. And here they are on the subject of LGBTQ matters.
I remember going with my devout Gramma to her pentecostal church. She was at Azusa Street and she was the real deal. Were it not for my gramma’s prayers, I doubt I’d be Christian today. Back in those days, the pentecostal church had very strict rules and your devotedness was measured by how well you followed those rules. My gramma didn’t cut her hair, wore no jewelry, dressed modestly, never wore pants, and abided by all the other rules of the church at that time. Confession of sin was a constant, but also the experience, physically and emotionally, of the joy of the Lord. I danced and swayed to my gramma’s piano playing while she riffed off the organists playing across the church from her. It was there that I came to believe that God was a scary parent but Jesus understood me and cared about me.
My mother/her daughter was wounded deeply by that denomination in that time. She raised me Lutheran, high Lutheran. It is there I grew to love liturgy and ceremony and processions with flowing robes and incense and great grand pipe-organ music that lifted me high into the rafters where the stained glass windows surrounded me and cast their colors onto my clothing. My mother smoked and drank and led choir and engaged in lots of secret sins out of her rebellion against her childhood. It was there I learned the majesty of God, and began to understand that awe was an appropriate emotion when encountering a big God personally.
Since that time, many years have passed, and I’ve been involved with many forms of the Christian faith. Each form had its own rules, its own ways of thinking and behaving that told others (and yourself) if you were ‘inside’ or ‘outside’. Each form taught me things that drew me closer to Christ while also displaying the limitations humans face in trying to understand God. Each taught me differing interpretations of the same scriptures depending on their particular bent and what they deemed their historical distinctives. In some, I was allowed to teach and lead; in others, I was asked to confine myself to the kitchen coffee service or childrens church. In some, my personality, degrees, and training were assets; in others, I was told that I was too bold and aggressive and not meek enough. And on and on and on.
All these forms of worship, these structures which allowed us to assemble ourselves and ‘do good works’, were attempts to please God — the problem was that we disagreed strongly with each other in how we saw God and what we thought God said to us and what that meant. And our self-interests were always tugging on our sleeves.
Now, I’m older. And most of all that has dropped away from me. I don’t care much for the institutional rules that our churches prescribe anymore. I don’t disdain them – they most surely have their purpose, especially in the first half of life – but I just don’t care enough anymore.
What I now care about is trying to learn to live and love as I see Jesus lived and loved. All the time. Or as much of the time as my spiritual awareness allows me to. It’s hard. The hardest thing I’ve ever done. As a fairly accomplished person, and in my weak moments, I wish I could go back to ‘rules’; it frankly was easier. This loving thing is so impossible for me that I see clearly I cannot do it without throwing myself over and over onto the Jesus the Bible presents to me and asking for what I do not have, the ability to more purely love.
Anyway, that’s it for me in these last years. As that relates to the gay/queer issue, I know way too many good people who are also gay and who exhibit the same morals that I was taught in my many denominational church experiences, with the exception of who they love. And who they love is not a disqualifier because I don’t believe it is a disqualifier with Jesus. Jesus invited the reprobates of his time to his table, to his inner circle, and I believe the living Christ invites people of sexuality different from me still.
At least, that’s what “Love God; Love others” as a total fulfillment of all God’s laws tells me. I’m trying to do that. It is simple but it is not easy at all – still, it feels like I’m finally becoming like a little child of the kingdom.
Alex,
“At least, that’s what “Love God; Love others” as a total fulfillment of all God’s laws tells me.”
What is at issue is what is love?
Is helping or affirming someone who allows himself to be sodomized by another man into thinking that they are in a God ordained, God pleasing, biblical marriage love?
Is helping, supporting or affirming a boy to pretend to be a girl because he feels like he is a girl a form of biblical love?
I know biblical inerrancy is not popular here, and that people want to worship Jesus, but if you separate the knowledge of Jesus in the Bible from the person of Jesus, then he becomes everyone’s projection of who Jesus should be according to our criteria. I see that as terribly flawed.
Jean,
The Gospels, with their obvious conflicts, are a good reason to question inerrancy.
Having said that, I think they are trustworthy and authoritative in their depiction of Jesus.
I don’t think anyone could make up the Sermon on the Mount…
Jean,
Let me say it again… what I now care about is trying to learn to live and love as I see Jesus lived and loved as the gospels show us.
You will not get anyone to listen to you if you yell Sodomite or Unclean or Pervert in their face.
I see Jesus extending caring towards people well before he says “Sin no more”… well, except for those who consider themselves righteously superior. He didn’t seem to hold back from them.
Alex,
“Let me say it again… what I now care about is trying to learn to live and love as I see Jesus lived and loved as the gospels show us.” I do to and I believe that every Christian tradition would agree. However, there is a great diversity of views as to how to carry this out. So, I return to the question: Where can we learn about Jesus? My view is exclusively in the Bible, where his word is living and active.
“You will not get anyone to listen to you if you yell Sodomite or Unclean or Pervert in their face.” I agree and don’t do that. However, Christian toleration with homosexual and transgender perversions has not served our society well. I think it’s past time to take a stand, stand our ground, and say: Take the flags out of our schools and government offices; eliminate the pride months and other holidays; ban the perverted displays of parades in public; get the homosexual stuff out of the media, the classroom and the libraries; ban men from participating in women’s athletics; and take homosexuality and transgenderism out of DEI and affirmative action. Let’s restore sanity to our society. Let Christians stand for morality and protect our youth and girls.
“I see Jesus extending caring towards people well before he says “Sin no more”… well, except for those who consider themselves righteously superior. He didn’t seem to hold back from them.” I agree. As long as we acknowledge the word “before” because there is an after the care.
Jean,
Christians aren’t the only people who inhabit the U.S.
Demanding that a secular people enforce the moral imperatives of a minority within the people isn’t going to work…especially when we have massive moral issues ourselves.
Standing up in the New Testament isn’t just enforcing “truth”…it’s speaking our truth in love and living accordingly.
“Demanding that a secular people enforce the moral imperatives of a minority within the people isn’t going to work…especially when we have massive moral issues ourselves.”
I’m not sure that traditional sexual and gender morality is a minority view. I think a lot of people just don’t speak up for one reason or another, whereas the alphabet mafia is activist, loud, and often bullying. Just my opinion.
“I know biblical inerrancy is not popular here, and that people want to worship Jesus, but if you separate the knowledge of Jesus in the Bible from the person of Jesus, then he becomes everyone’s projection of who Jesus should be according to our criteria. I see that as terribly flawed.”
Good point Jean. For me, its not an issue of inerrency, as I beleive in the inspiration of scripture. But if we distance ourselves from scripture, we really have little that tells us about Jesus. We are left to make up a Jesus of our own understanding, which becomes more flawed than any of the inconsistencies of scripture. We really have a incomplete view of God, His holiness, and the different attributes that are a paradox and can only be held in tension.