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Tullian Takes TGC, SGM To Task

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84 Responses

  1. Ricky Bobby says:

    Wow. I’m not used to hearing the candid truth come out of the mouth of a big name Christian* leader…especially critical of one of his own. Can’t believe the Christian Post printed it.

    Hmm. That is nearly a miracle.

  2. Michael says:

    The story went up last night and came straight back down without explanation.
    According to the reporter it was simply because it wasn’t supposed to run until this morning.
    According to me, it was because a number of us had already copied it and threatened to post it in it’s entirety anyway.

  3. Ixtlan says:

    Tullian is courageous and I appreciate his willingness to speak the truth in love in uncovering ecclesiastical structures that promote the platform of its members, control damage by cleaver spin doctoring , and have become incubators for future sin.

  4. Ricky Bobby says:

    As I mentioned on another thread…I’ve been studying the occult and other religions lately in search of any shred of documentable and verifiable “supernatural” manifestation as well as just general curiosity as to how different human Groups fill in the gaps of life’s big questions.

    One interesting thing about the Occult that is similar to what we see in Christianity*…Child Abuse both physical and sexual…is very much part of their practice and they hide it and protect it much the same. You’d expect it from the Occult…yet the “Church” is supposed to be different. Nope, not really when push comes to shove (largely).

  5. Ricky Bobby says:

    Michael said, “The story went up last night and came straight back down without explanation.
    According to the reporter it was simply because it wasn’t supposed to run until this morning.
    According to me, it was because a number of us had already copied it and threatened to post it in it’s entirety anyway.”

    That figures. Well good job in holding their feet to the fire. I’m sure they got a lot of pressure to pull that story and those quotes from Big Corp Christianity*.

  6. Jtk says:

    not in my backyard, Ricky Bobby.

    My church ain’t like that.

    And I’m not alone.

  7. Jtk says:

    Re: abuse

  8. Kevin H says:

    I really like those Tchividjian brothers. Now, if only they would change their last name to something that is easier to type (and pronounce). 🙂

  9. Michael says:


    I love those guys…but I have to cut and paste the names every time. 🙂

  10. Jim says:

    “Give me a break. These people, they’re family. Of course he knew,” Tchividjian told The Christian Post. “C. J. was, for many years, the micro-managing head of the organization and nothing happened under the umbrella of Sovereign Grace that he wasn’t made aware of, so for anyone to say, ‘Well he didn’t know,’ that’s totally naive.”

    Not only did he say what everyone knows and everyone should be saying, but he left the flowery christianese at the door. Love this guy and his brother Boz.

    A friend of mine sent an email to G.R.A.C.E., expecting to hear back from an asst. or something, and Boz responded personally, and a dialog commenced. There’s a lot of high dollar stuff Boz could be doing, given his pedigree and giftings. His devotion to victims of the unspeakable is beyond commendable.

    may their tribe increase…

  11. Michael says:

    Amen, Jim!
    How do you feel as you watch all of this unfold after years of being such a strong voice about the abuses of SGM?

  12. Ricky Bobby says:

    Jim, well put about Boz. A rare glaring example of a much truer form of Christianity IMO. The Tchividjian Bros. are the anti-big-mega-pastor mindset. Very refreshing. Breath of fresh air and tends to give hope and “faith” in a salty jaded skeptic like me.

  13. Papias says:

    Kudos to Tchividjian.

    I feel that TGC needs to address this situation, since they were so quick to rally around CJ last year with their statement. Every day they don’t address is another day lost.

    And Joe Carter needs to get another job…

  14. Michael says:


    He may not want the job after the waxing he took last night…

  15. Dusty says:

    there is victory/or near victory for the abused in this church? Praising God

  16. Ricky Bobby says:

    The stuff is gonna keep coming…more lawsuits, more criminal convictions and eventually some arrests for non-reporting and cover-up…in many different Camps.

    The Trend is finally changing. It will no longer be tolerated to look the other way with regards to child abuse…and that’s a “good” thing…despite the denials and the obstruction and foot-dragging and defending the leaders and status quo from the “Church”

  17. Papias says:


    Nothing much new… but I did find myself agreeing with Rachel Held Evans for once….focus on the victims… not TGC

  18. lydia says:

    “According to me, it was because a number of us had already copied it and threatened to post it in it’s entirety anyway.”


  19. Anonymous says:

    If his grandfather was not Billy Graham, would we be talking about him? Any press is good press and when you get your name in the media, it is free advertising. Sorry for the negativity.

  20. Michael says:

    He’s made his own way as well as both a pastor and author.
    More importantly, he has used his name to do good…even when it cost him.
    Billy should be proud of his grandsons.

  21. Jim says:

    Michael re #11. A lot of mixed emotions. Back in the day, I didn’t know anything about Morales, so hearing the details was painful. I’m thrilled that a “big dog” has finally spoken.
    I think sgm is a dead man walking, but CJ will probably retire at a young age as a very wealthy man. The spiritual abuse hasn’t stopped, but I’m confident that they’re smart enough to not let another Morales case occur. Hard to be real hopeful when churches that left are still following the old MO.

  22. Anonymous 2 says:

    Joe Carter publicly said that CJ Manhaney and Joshua Harris left the TGC Council years ago, when it was easily verifiable that they had been removed only over the weekend. Joe accused JulieAnne Smith (http://spiritualsoundingboard.com) of slander and threatened legal action, though he never provided any proof. He also threatened Dee Parsons (http://thewartburgwatch.com).

    Joe Carter then claimed to Jack Braylor (a gnat) that he had spoken and comforted victims over the weekend; also claimed they felt exploited by the hashtag #IStandWithSGMVictims. Joe was asked which victims he spoke to? He remained silent. Joe was asked why they felt exploited? He remained silent (while still tweeting about other things.) Jack Braylor found several victims through Twitter who said the hashtag was very encouraging to them. No one came forward to say they had any interactions with Joe Carter nor that they felt exploited.

    Joe broke his silence, not by answering the direct questions about the victims; but rather he spoke to Mildred Ratched (a gnat) who then relayed his answer. Joe changed his tactic and claimed that he never meant the victims were exploited by the hashtag, but that the creation of the hashtag by Zach Hoag (of Nuance: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/zhoag/) was exploitive, though refused to say how.

    During yesterday’s twitter wars there were claims of Joe blocking people from TGC, blocking some from tweeting him, and continued refusal to answer reasonable questions. Someone said he was interviewed, or quoted, that he didn’t respond to the direct questions because he was not allowed to talk about it. Another ill-advised response since he started the conversation on social media. Strange behavior for being this guy:

    Senior Editor, Acton Institute | Editor, TGC |
    Director of Comm., Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission | Adjunct Prof. of Journalism, Patrick Henry College

    There’s much more to the story of Joe Carter’s public communications, but suffice it to say that he’s not handling himself in a professional manner, he’s been caught in lies, made accusations and changed his story. A lot of effort made to protect his gospel-bros, yet nothing for the victims … still.

    Is this how one does gospel-twitter?

  23. lydia says:

    Anon, Joe Carter also co wrote a book: How to Argue Like Jesus.

    Joe Carter has rendered himself totally untrustworthy. What I would like to know is why the SBC ERLC puts up with it? Donors should know what they are paying for.

  24. lydia says:

    “Nothing much new… but I did find myself agreeing with Rachel Held Evans for once….focus on the victims… not TGC”

    Not so fast. She twittered that we should all focus on victims and leave TGC out of it.

    That tweet was BEFORE CJ and Harris “resigned” from TGC. She has no clue

  25. Anonymous 2 says:

    Amy Smith (http://watchkeep.blogspot.com) tweeted:

    Amy Smith ‏@watchkeep 4h
    Joe Carter @TGC spouts off on twitter then tells @ChristianPost he “was unable to officially comment about this.”


  26. That Janet Mefferd, is quite the funny lady. She is doing a phrase by phrase commentary on what the guy is saying, interjecting her points and questions, and distracting from the context in which he is saying it. (however, I didn’t like his whimpering either – cry baby)

    However, what I found comical is that she said that he should say such and such and if the church goes down then let it go down for the sake of honesty.

    However, a couple of months ago, when she had a chance to stand up for what was right, to stand up against lies and bullying, she backed down, removed the evidence from her web site and let her good friend and producer, Ingrid Schlueter, eat a bullet for her.

    Is there no end to hypocrisy?

  27. Michael says:

    Ingrid sees it quite differently evidently…she was rooting Janet on via Facebook.

  28. Ingrid fell on her sword for Janet in the last fiasco over the Driscoll book. How soon we forget when she took down her Driscoll interview and all other material – and Ingrid exited from the program.

    She gave into the pressure of trying to keep her show from harm – circled her own wagons ,,, instead of going down with her ship

  29. Michael says:

    There is not a shred of evidence for anything you just wrote.

  30. Did you poke your eyes out or go blind?

    You don’t remember when she did the Driscoll interview about buying the NYT bestseller list and then she removed the interview and anything related to it? You were at the forefront here blaming the power of the big media and publishers. Julie Ann was defending that it was their (Janet and her husbands livelihood at stake) – and the only person who paid a price was Ingrid who ended up resigning her job as a producer with the show.

    My only point is that she was advising the crybaby pastor to do what she was not willing to do months ago.

  31. anon for a good reason says:


    I’m posting anonymously for my own personal reasons, but I’m posting here (as I did to a couple of other sites) because there is a comment on TGC’s article on Tullian’s departure that is crying out for a response.

    I am posting it here, in case their moderators take it down.

    “Dennis HC • 4 hours ago
    Putting TGC’s and TT’s statements regarding this issue side-by-side, it seems clear which one is more gracious and less accusatory. Perhaps it’s just because Pastors Carson and Keller have more years of walking in the faith than TT. Or, perhaps it’s because Christian maturity and bearing fruit in accordance with salvation are benefited by a proper and biblical view of sanctification. My best wishes to both TGC and TT.”

    The arrogance behind the statement is outrageous. So is the implication that a large portion of Christendom does not hold a “proper and biblical view of sanctification. .

    My personal views on the matter are irrelevant; if this is representative at all of how TGC and its followers view the rest of the church, someone with authority needs to call them out on it. If they’re moderating comments but letting that one stand, what does it say about how they view Tullian and any other believer who doesn’t toe their narrow line?

  32. Michael says:


    The reality is that there is no one who has authority over a parachurch group like TGC.
    The ironic thing is that R. Scott Clark, (who couldn’t be more Truly Reformed if he tried) has totally destroyed their position historically and by the confessions.
    At this point TGC is nothing more than a band of confused Calvinistic bullies who are disgracing the good name of my long dead mentor.

  33. brian says:

    RB you know I cant stand magical thinking and I tend to lean towards you on many issues, but just be careful with occult study it can lead one down so rather dark roads, just a friendly concern. Take care.

  34. brian says:

    Michael because your a man of faith I dont think you see the big picture, it is the branding, this is a business, it has always been a business in some eyes. People get sucked into it with good intentions, many of them stay in it with good intentions but first foremost and always at the very top of the list, it is a business. It took me years to understand this but as I went through my MBA studies I saw a direct correlation to protecting brand, challenging competitions, remaining relevant, connecting to new markets, preventing disruptive technologies / processes such as telling the truth and other such nonsense.

    When you have so much skin in the game, and it is a game, one will acquiesce when needed. John Calvin actually believed what he taught, shame on him, his progeny have developed the ability to do away with such idiocies. They follow the market trends.

  35. Julie Anne says:

    Thanks, Papias, for the link to the Christian Post article. I hadn’t seen that one. Joe is a challenge to converse with. It gets no where. I guess it doesn’t matter anymore since he now has blocked me on Twitter.

    MLD – With regard to the Mefferd/Schlueter/Driscoll thing. It’s one thing when you are an independent blogger like Michael or me with no one paying you for anything. You don’t have ties to anyone and the only thing to lose is your reputation. It’s different when you’re dealing with people who “own” you. I don’t know what went on there, but It’s a challenge and a difficult balancing act, I’m sure.

  36. brian says:

    Back when I was STUPID, not to say I am not know, I use to think it was all about Jesus, yes I actually believed that, deep to the core. Shame on me and it is a shame, I have come to learn that is pathetic, I get that and never will I cross that line again. They win. Yes I have become a modern evangelical, now I will try to find some peace.

  37. brian says:

    I have committed many signs of objective apostasy, I have offended God with every single heartbeat and breath, I get that. But nothing has offended God in His eternal Holiness, than what is reflected in this video, It is pure satanism. I dont get why it is but it is.


  38. Jim says:

    Hey hey hey hey HEY!

    My former SGM church had a family meeting last night announcing that they HAVE LEFT SGM.

  39. Jim (22), You are one of my heroes. Thank you for being willing to be disparaged while standing up for truth.

    And Michael (33), I’m beginning to think their Calvinism is simply a means to an end. That end being their need for power and control.

    As I’ve said elsewhere, some of my favourite brothers and sisters in the faith are Neo-Calvinist in their theology, in the true Kuyperian sense of that term. They look at the YRR as an aberration at best.

  40. Michael says:


    You might be right.
    My biggest beef is that they have gutted the pastoral ministry that Calvin lived and died for in favor of being as anal as possible about arcane points of doctrine that strip the Spirit from the Word.
    Well…that’s one of my beefs… 🙂

  41. RiBo says:

    brian, good stuff. I imagine that God will hold one of those signs in the end…if he is truly good and truly love and loves his enemies: “I forgive you”–God.

  42. RiBo says:

    brian, don’t worry about the Occult stuff…I view it as the other side of the same coin as hyper-charismania like Benny Hinn or Todd Bentley. it’s as fake as a $10 Rolex. Basically, it’s a bunch of sexual deviants who think they get some sort of false power from giving into their base desires and kink and then crossing lines like sacrificing animals and abusing women and children. They are idiots and they have no real supernatural power…no evidence of such, just like with charismatic Christians who claim to bark like dogs due to the holy spirit etc. Two sides of the same coin. I am seeing many similarities between the two Groups…both have a high view of “the devil!” and demons as well and blame all sorts of things on “satan!” etc…when it is just humans being idiot humans.

  43. RiBo says:

    Bill said, “That end being their need for power and control.”

    That pretty much sums up my conclusion based on nearly every Theological/Philosophical/Political Group on the planet (in general).

    It’s humans doing what we do…and all Groups, essentially, tick the same. There is no such thing as “transformation”…

  44. RB,
    “I imagine that God will hold one of those signs in the end…if he is truly good and truly love and loves his enemies: “I forgive you”–God.”

    He already has held up the sign … it’s called the New Testament

  45. RiBo says:

    …that need for some measure of power and control has even been evidence in spades on this blog…I know, I’ve tested it out and it is the same Group Dynamic in all closed Groups.

  46. RiBo says:

    MLD said, “He already has held up the sign … it’s called the New Testament”

    The difference being that typical Christianity* would assert you have to “do” something to get the forgiveness…whereas the context of the sign video is it is Unilateral Forgiveness

  47. Michael says:


    Then go somewhere else.

  48. RiBo says:

    Michael, no.

  49. Michael says:


    I have very little time to devote here right now.
    You don’t agree with the views presented and want to contend with us constantly.
    I’m not going to engage it anymore.
    You have your own forum to speak in and people are free to engage you there.
    This is not going to be another day of endless critiques and insults from you that the majority of my readers are not interested in, nor do they want to discuss.
    There is no point in this at all…and I don’t have the time or energy to deal with it.

  50. RiBo says:

    I agree with the church abuse issues and many other issues presented here. I disagree with some other things. That’s life.

  51. “whereas the context of the sign video is it is Unilateral Forgiveness”

    The NT is Unilateral Forgiveness 2 Cor 5:18-19
    “All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.”

    Stand out on the street and hold up your NT. 🙂

  52. RiBo says:

    The usual suspects in your Group have more to do with how today will go than I do.

    If they play by the rules and don’t provoke me, I’ll stick to the church abuse things with which we agree.

  53. RiBo says:

    MLD, so you are saying you believe God will forgive all of mankind in the end? None go to hell?

    That is the context.

    I know from many discussions with you that you do believe that man has to do something to get the salvation, though you try to construct a bizarre “God gives you prosthetic arms to pick up the faith!” to try and slither out of man “doing” something that is required to avoid being fried in hell.

  54. Dodger Dog says:

    Ricky Bobby/RiBo is getting better-only 28% of all 55 comments are from him…

  55. RiBo says:

    As was pointed out the other day to which you didn’t acknowledge, there was only 1 out 10 threads where RiBo commented more than a handful of times, in fact, there were 4 threads or more with zero comments.

  56. Dodger Dog says:

    RiBo is a “Dodger Dog” @ #57 too? Let’s go see a game together. It could be interesting eh? I would rather enjoy it.

  57. RB,
    Which part of that passage (2 Cor 5) did you have trouble understanding? Did it not say that God does not hold man’s sin against him any long? Doesn’t that sound like forgiveness to you?

    But the passage says nothing about who goes to heaven – so perhaps sin is not the issue. I have stated many times, that I believe hell will be populated with people who “god no longer holds their sins against them.”

    So what could it be?

  58. RB, Here is my theological lesson for you today

  59. RiBo says:

    MLD, I’ve deconstructed the Lutheran position many times now…it always comes out the same: Man has to do something to get the forgiveness and the salvation from hell…it isn’t a truly Unilateral Forgiveness no matter how you try and spin it.

    It is what it is.

    You have to accept the “means of grace” and if you don’t do that, you get crispified in hell.

  60. RiBo says:

    Dodger Dog, I am, in fact, a Dodger’s fan LOL. Though I prefer Money Ball and the A’s approach to things vs. the West Coast Yankees buy-the-highest-priced-players that our Dodgers have become.

  61. Michael says:


    I shouldn’t have to tell you not to use someone else’s name.
    I’m changing those posts to reflect who the author is.

  62. “You have to accept the “means of grace” and if you don’t do that, you get crispified in hell.”

    Not true, but without the Holy Spirit, I have no assumption that you would understand.

  63. Michael says:

    Mahaney responds…http://bit.ly/1okeeax

  64. Papias says:

    Interesting response from CJ, but about what I expected.

    Didn’t know that the civil lawsuit has been going on for two years.

    Still wish that someone from SGM would say “We sinned. We messed up.”, but maybe that admission would cost too much in terms of money, reputation, people leaving the group.

    But with that kind of admission could also give the Gospel a light to shine.

  65. Dusty says:

    Anyone, who has been abused at a young age, have body memories?

  66. Dusty says:

    or feelings that come out of no where.? even emotional feelings?

  67. Dusty says:

    been working with a dr. about this but wondered if anyone else experienced this

  68. John Doe says:

    Dusty, I remember what it was like to feel helpless and scared to death and powerless. I won’t ever allow myself to be in that position again or feel those feelings again. I’d rather die than feel that again…and would go down swinging vs. succumbing to a bully.

  69. It is PTSD related Dusty, I had a lot more of those types of things right after coming back from Iraq both times.
    Mainly in the form of anxiety attacks in crowds. I had one bad one come on in the holiday season in Walmart and it had me trying to find a trigger to a weapon that wasn’t there.
    Other times it is just days where memories come rushing back in and take a day over.
    Luckily, mine have calmed a bit.

  70. Dusty says:

    starting to remember things I now know why I tried to forget -had forgotten all these years….I knew bits and pieces, but now the whole thing is coming to light….my grandfather raped me at a very young age, not just once….I remember all the details now….I knew some of it before …but it all came crashing down around me and I remember it all, his smell, his touch,……oh God…..

  71. Dusty says:

    Derek, PTSD, yes and D.I.D….child abuse, rape, molestation….

  72. John Doe says:

    Dusty, that’s terrible. So sorry. Wish I could take it away.

  73. Dusty says:

    have also had the anxiety attacks Derek. Im sorry you have to deal with that.

  74. John Doe says:

    If I was your dad, I would’ve killed your grandpa OT/Taliban style and done the time.

  75. Ah well, I haven’t had one in about 6 months right now.
    If that is the most I have to deal with compared to what others have to go through then I feel blessed.
    Praying for you Dusty.

  76. Dusty says:

    my dad was not around much when I was growing up….neither was mom…..we were kind of passed around

  77. Dusty says:

    things didn’t “settle down” (not normal) until I was about 15 by 18 I left home.

  78. Dusty says:

    thanks John and Derek

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