What Are Judeo-Christian Values?
When I think about “Judeo-Christian” values, I think those of us who claim Jesus should drop the “Judeo” because Jesus changed Jewish values as well as those of the world.
Having said that, the place I go to first is The Sermon On The Mount…where Jesus speaks clearly about His values.
I want to focus on one of those stated values today, as I just finished teaching on it.
“God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.”
(Matthew 5:7 NLT-SE)
For the sake of brevity, I will note that “mercy” in this context is an action word…someone who is merciful takes actions to alleviate the suffering of another person.
Think, “The Good Samaritan”.
I mention this as I was listening to the video posted here.
Senator Joni Ernst was replying to someone at a town hall fearful because of cuts to Medicaid.
She replied…”we’re all going to die”.
This upset people, so she posted the following “apology”;
In that apology she appeals to people to follow Jesus.
She has a shock coming when she meets Him…
Here is a person who is in a position to do mercy…to alleviate suffering for countless people.
She refuses, then blasphemes the name of the Lord by attaching Him to her lack of mercy.
What other values does Jesus teach?
Humility
Seeking the righteousness and justice of God
Peacemakers
Caring for the poor
Purity of heart and motives
These are just a few…how well do the current champions of the “Judeo Christian” ethic line up with these?
What are “Judeo-Christian values?
What a twisted way of presenting the good news!
Bizarro, really.
Judeo-Christian values today:
– Jesus is my Savior! Trump is my President!
– America First!
– Securing (i.e. closing) the border
– Demonizing immigrants
– Anti-anything Woke
– Owning the libs
– Despising Biden, Harris, Obama, and the Clintons
– Denouncing drag queen story hours
– Posting the Ten Commandments in all school classrooms
– Also a Trump Bible in every school classroom
– Maybe being against abortion, but we don’t really care about that anymore as Trump no longer cares about it
And a few more:
– Categorizing all mainstream media as “fake news”
– Forgiving (i.e. ignoring or justifying) all sins committed by Trump and politicians on his side, while condemning to hell all politicians on the other side for their sins
– Being anti-science and anti-anything expertise
– Being anti-university (especially Harvard)
– Pro tariff
Michael, I so agree with your first sentence. I am not slightly interested in the “Judeo” part. Old Testament values are confusing at times, and downright barbaric at others.
Christlike values would be wonderful to witness, but people at large have completely forgotten what that means.
Josh,
Thanks…I thought some might object to that, but you and I see it the same way.
KevinH,
In others words…anti-Christ.
She insulted her constituents, the tooth fairy and Jesus all within one minute.
To me Jude-Christian values always start with 2 things.
1. God knows humans have evil in their hearts from when they are young.
2. It’s about being totally “just” in how humans conduct themselves in all things.
Now the problem is what does it mean to be “just?”
The idea of “Judeo-Christian” values is a relatively new thing in a historical sense.
PS, as I thought no one can really nail down what this really means or looks like. Instead we get politically influenced and sarcasm.
“What are “Judeo-Christian values?”
The term is another way of saying “God’s Law”. In other words, what are the values that God commands that mankind manifest primarily towards one another.
Jesus did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. He was the one, the only one, who actually perfectly kept (i.e., fulfilled) God’s Law (for us). His blood shed for us was pure and undefiled, therefore it was an acceptable sin offering for us. Jesus ransomed us from the punishment we deserve by bearing our sin on the cross.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus explicates God’s Law over and against the corruptions that had entered into Jewish teaching through pharisaic Judaism (e.g., “You have heard that it was said…”). The Sermon on the Mount is not a different or more progressive teaching from God, but the pure teaching of God’s eternal Law. God is immutable.
Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount to his disciples. “Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.” The Sermon is for disciples (or would be disciples). The Sermon is not directed to Herod or Pilate.
Christians cannot outsource God’s law to the government or expect pagans to fulfill it on our behalf. It is God’s will for each one of his redeemed people, with full acknowledgment that it is a call to repentance as much as it is a guide for life.
TH,
I’ve given little thought to the matter.
It’s always seemed to be a right wing dog whistle to me…and as Josh noted…there are big differences in perceived values.
I suppose you could boil it down to the Ten Commandments…
Thanks Michael for posting this.
There actually is a history and some good ideas about this outside of the politically charged rhetoric used these days.
The term actually isn’t coined until the 19th Century, probably because the idea of combining Jewish with established Christianity was far from scholars minds.
I was asked by teenage boys one day why God never objected to David having more than one wife? Good question, one in which Jesus never addresses and we just assume He supported. He does address the subject of divorce and adultery.
Could some of the current so called values be more culturally driven than biblical?
Is there a list we could define as Christian values much like the creeds?
“Is there a list we could define as Christian values much like the creeds?”
You could derive something like that from the Sermon On The Mount…
Michael
The irony is many Christians support the 10 statements/commandments of God and yet have no clue what they are. Most also have no clue when they were given by God, to whom they were given to and how initially they were given. Most of us think Moses was given them on stone tablets written by the finger of God. But that was only the second time, if I remember my Bible story correctly.
We also have no clue how the people reacted when God gave them.
We are biblically illiterate and yet sit on a big personal seat of judgement and opinion.
Besides which, these days everything is about politics.
Sorry just rambling.
TH,
I’m (hopefully) going to write something tomorrow about this damned conflation of faith and politics…and when it’s necessary to engage in it.
This week has been the first in a long while were we actually discussed theology…it’s a welcome change, even if I’m a bit rusty.
Michael,
I think it starts with the two great commandments of loving God first, and then extending that love to a neighbor. Those two commandments get wrapped up in the Ten Commandments, which are restated in both the Old and New Testaments.
I think the Judeo-Christian part has been tossed around so much that the meaning has been greatly deflated. Also, most people (Christians included) don’t know what Judeo-Christian means to begin with.
It’s sort of like trying to talk about “traditional” family values in a world of divorce, abortion, identity sexuality, polyamorous relationships, etc. All of that is now more or less normal, which probably also makes it traditional in the minds of many. I have an acquaintance who is in a poly relationship with a trans man (or, once identified as a man) and her former husband who has had surgery and now identifies as a woman. She talks about it like it’s the most normal thing in the world (and my eyes got bigger and bigger). I’ve kept that relationship open (although not close) because there have been opportunities to talk about Jesus. I don’t want her to miss out on Him!
“It’s sort of like trying to talk about “traditional” family values in a world of divorce, abortion, identity sexuality, polyamorous relationships, etc. All of that is now more or less normal, which probably also makes it traditional in the minds of many.”
Best statement so far.
Just 30 years ago, when I was raising my sons, the stats were 75% (or something near there) of their peers by high school were living in homes with just one of their birth parents.
There is no doubt in my mind that America is rooted in Judeo-Christian values and that such values provide the anchor for a stable and prosperous society. Our country greatly benefited (and still could) from embracing Judeo-Christian values. The could and should be taught in every classroom. They are consistent with natural law. They are objective values instilled by the Creator God.
The farther society strays from Judeo-Christian values, the more our society suffers. “Claiming to be wise, they became fools….”
“Judeo-Christian values” really says nothing. It is one of those terms that means whatever people who push what they consider “Judeo-Christian values” is, regardless of their ignorance of both the Old and New Testaments. The problem is the biggest pushers of “Judeo-Christian values” in society, government, culture, etc. are the biggest hypocrites, as their behaviors and attitudes are ANYTHING but that. Those being the Evangelicals here in the US.
Kind of hard to have the moral high ground against gay marriage when most “Christians” are unbiblically divorced and living in adultery. Kind of hard to be taken seriously about the dangers of porn, transgenderism, sexual abuse, grooming, etc. when churches and “Christian” leaders are the biggest abusers and groomers.
Maybe if Christians and churches got off their ass and cleaned up their dumpster fires first, THEN they can talk about “Judeo-Christian values” in society.
What’s worse, all these Evangelicals aligned themselves with a strongman to Make America Great Again. No different that all those German Christians who aligned themselves with another strongman to Make Germany Great Again and roll back the decadence and perversion of Weimar Germany. After all, that Germany strongman was for “family values”.
Exhibit A is Moms for Liberty. Pushing “Judeo-Christian values” in school (like some people want) against the evils of drag queen story hours, LBGT literature, etc. Never mind that Moms for Liberty co-founder, school board member, activist, and prominent Florida GOP Bridget Ziegler (and her Husband) are accused of sexual assault and MFF bisexual swinger relationship.
When this came out, Sarasota social media forums were filled with people pointing out the contradiction of Bridget’s involvement with the bisexual sex scandal while also having been instrumental in drafting Florida’s famous “Don’t Say Gay” legislation, which forbade discussion of LGBTQ issues in many school settings. One member of a Sarasota Reddit forum noted the irony, writing, “Because of the Zieglers and all the gossip they’ve evoked around school, my elementary-aged kids now know about swinging and threesomes.”
Which leads me to think that the biggest opponents to things like LGBT are really projecting. They secretly really partake in such behaviors all the while publicly proclaiming their disgust and opposition. This explains Ted Haggard and Jerry Falwell, Junior.
What is interesting here is how a lot of the first responses to the question of “what are these values” are very negative.
It kind of shows what is in the hearts and minds of those who respond. Why is it we see things from such a negative and often hateful manner?
Here’s how Dennis Prager answers the question (yes he is a Jew):
https://nsjonline.com/article/2023/02/prager-what-are-judeo-christian-values/
Here are 10 of those values.
No. 1: There is one God. That God is the God introduced to the world by the Hebrew Bible — the source of one universal morality.
No. 2: The Hebrew Bible (the only Bible Jesus knew and which he frequently cited) introduced the most revolutionary moral idea in history: that there are objective moral truths just as there are mathematical and scientific truths. Without God as the source of moral standards, there is no moral truth; there are only moral opinions.
No. 3: Because there are moral truths, good and evil are the same for all people.
No. 4: God — not man, not government, not popular opinion, not a democratic vote — is the source of our rights. All men “are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,” declares the American Declaration of Independence.
No. 5: The human being is “created in the image of God.” Therefore, each human life is precious. Therefore, race is of no significance, since we are all created in God’s image and God has no race.
No. 6: The world is based on a divine order, meaning divinely ordained distinctions. Among these divine distinctions are God and man, man and woman, human and animal, good and evil, nature and God, and the holy and the profane.
No. 7: Man is not basically good. Christians speak of “original sin” in referring to man’s sinful nature; Jews cite God Himself in Genesis: “The will of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Genesis 8:21). They are not identical beliefs, but they are both worlds apart from the naive Enlightenment belief that man is basically good. And they come to the same conclusion: we need God-based rules to keep us from our natural inclination to do evil.
No. 8: Therefore, we must not follow our hearts. Both religious Jews and Christians are keenly aware of how morally dangerous it is to be led by our emotions. Those who reject Judeo-Christian values are far more likely to follow and promote the advice, “Follow your heart.”
No. 9: God gave us the Ten Commandments — the core of Judeo-Christian values. Therefore, to apply but one of the Ten Commandments to our morally confused secular age, you must “Honor your father and mother” even if they voted for someone you loathe — meaning, at the least, remain in contact with them and do not dare deprive them of the right to be in contact with their grandchildren.
No. 10: Human beings have free will. In the secular world, there is no free will because all human behavior is attributed to biology and environment. Only a religious worldview, because it posits the existence of a divine soul — something independent of biology and environment — allows for free will.
There is another important aspect to the term “Judeo-Christian.” The two religions need each other. Without the Old Testament, there is no New Testament. Virtually every Christian moral principle derives from the Hebrew Bible — not only the 10 Judeo-Christian values enumerated here, but such basic moral principles as “Love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18), “Love the Lord your God with all your heart …” (Deuteronomy 6:5), and “Love the stranger” (Deuteronomy 10:19).
I think Prager does a good job of defining what the religious right means by the term “Judeo-Christian ethics.”
Having said that, I have very little agreement with him.
I disagree with #10 and withhold judgement on #2 because I don’t know if the Hebrew Bible was the first or unique regarding objective moral truths. However, Prager’s list IMO incorporates a lot of helpful insights.
Michael, can you elaborate on where you differ with the list?
Prager is not ok with gay marriage, but is OK with divorce (since he is on wife #3). Kind of hard to have the moral high ground on that. According to some rabbi from Nazareth, Prager and all other Jews who do not believe him are the sons of evil. It’s really quite simple, Jesus said that “whoever does will of His Father in Heaven are his brothers and sisters.” It is pretty obvious that Prager is NOT doing that.
Judeo-Christian values makes about much sense as the “International Fellowship of Christian and Jews” Might as well as the 3rd Abrahamic religion and call it “Islamo-Judeo-Christian Values”. After all, homosexuality is forbidden (and a death penalty sin) in Islam. Thou shall not steal is also in Islam.
Jean,
The whole conflation of biblical ethics with American politics gags me.
I fully affirm that the U.S. constitution is the greatest governmental document ever written and it certainly laid down a foundation where practicing biblical ethics politically was possible.
Unfortunately we haven’t lived up to that promise and our current administration is almost wholly anti- Christ.
Prager overstates in #2…there have been valid moral instructions in other faith traditions.
#6 is a gross oversimplification and I have theological objections to much of it. That’s a longer conversation, but even if I agreed with it on the face, the applications have been problematic.
#7 That’s another theological debate…it is difficult to call humans made in “image of God” and then stating that they are inherently evil.
#8 Fundamentalist bullcrap. Tired of this anti-biblical trope used to remove godly and biblical emotions from life.
#9 Grossly simplistic. His example shows his cards…if I had children or grandchildren today visits with MAGA relatives would only happen under supervision. I wouldn’t want my progeny infected with those beliefs.
#10 This is not only bad theology, but denies the influence that environment, genetics, and nurture play in peoples lives.
Finally, it’s almost funny to hear someone who is virulently anti-immigrant to call “welcome the stranger” a basic moral principle…
Finally, I believe Christian ethics should be drawn from the Christ.
The Sermon On The Mount restates and re-interprets everything that came before it.
The life of Jesus ends on earth with a display of overcoming evil with sacrificial love…and that is the basis of all real Christian ethics.
“There is no doubt in my mind that America is rooted in Judeo-Christian values…”
Sorry, America is rooted in the values of the Enlightenment although we have strayed far from those values. Even the most cursory reading of early American history shows this.
Here’s what I value:
Minding my own P(s) and Q(s), and not doing the kinds of things to others I would not want done to me.
When I first taught the Constitution, I would tell the students that Judeo-Christian values shaped the minds of the Founders.
Then I began spending more time reading books about the individuals who had influenced the men gathered in Philadelphia. I agree with Duane. Enlightenment thinking is taboo in most Christian curricula. They would rather make you think that most of the Founders were God-fearing men.
I have found the link below to be a good resource.
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/essays/philosophical-influences-on-the-founders
Of course the term “Judeo-Christian Values” was invented during the early Cold War (late 1940s to mid-1950s). I guess the anti-Communist Buddhists and Muslims have been SOL ever since then.
Most of the Founders were deists. A couple were Christians though (Witherspoon and somebody else). Enlightenment Rationalism was the biggest influence on the them. Granted they understood the role religion played in people’s lives, society, community, etc., but this notion that the USA was founded a Christian nation is a myth.
There is nothing incompatible among Deism, Enlightenment influences and Judeo-Christian values, if, as I have done, Judeo-Christian values is defined as God’s moral law as reflected in the Old and New Testaments.
I could press as far as arguing that Western Civilization advanced beyond other civilizations in large part because of the influence of Judeo-Christian values.
Where did the ideas of Public Education, Public Hospitals, adoption, women’s rights, human rights, protections for the unborn, social safety nets, religious liberty, private property rights, freedom of speech, and a host of other institutions that propel an advanced civilization originate? I would argue from Juedeo-Christian values.
Forgive me, I find this discussion tedious.
The reason that there is an emphasis on promoting the Judeo-Christian worldview is because it assumes that the nation should be run by people who claim to be part of that heritage.
If we look at today, much of the power in this country is held by Christian nationalists.
The result is that this nation is now utterly ungodly by the standards Christian Nationalists claim to hold.
Irregardless of whatever the founders believed, the church has a call to witness prophetically to what is happening today in America.
Bob,
Good link!
“Prager is not ok with gay marriage, but is OK with divorce (since he is on wife #3). Kind of hard to have the moral high ground on that. According to some rabbi from Nazareth, Prager and all other Jews who do not believe him are the sons of evil. It’s really quite simple, Jesus said that “whoever does will of His Father in Heaven are his brothers and sisters.” It is pretty obvious that Prager is NOT doing that.”
Yes he is divorced, however the question isn’t about him it’s about discussion about what does “Judeo-Christian” values mean or look like.
You may also not know in the Jewish world divorce (like we read in the NT discussion with Jesus) divorce is not illegal.
R’as al Ghul you seem to have trouble with adding to what you think this means and would rather just give reasons why you dislike the whole idea and people involved.
Additionally, “Christians” were the majority of those who came to N. America initially. However, the fathers of the USA, (you know their names) did use the bible as well as other philosophical authors of the day to draft the founding documents.
All of us are have “evil in our hearts from our youth. ” That is one of those common values. In English Paul said it this way, “all have sinned and fall short…”
It is also why I value Justice and mercy as two of the most important initial values.
Here’s another list to consider:
“Love for God and neighbor:
A central tenet is loving God with all one’s heart, soul, and strength, and loving one’s neighbor as oneself.
Justice and righteousness:
Many Judeo-Christian traditions emphasize the importance of striving for justice and righteousness in all aspects of life.
Compassion and mercy:
Showing compassion and mercy towards others, particularly the marginalized and vulnerable, is considered a virtue.
Honesty and integrity:
Maintaining honesty and integrity in personal and professional life is a valued principle.
Respect for human life and dignity:
Judeo-Christian values hold that all human beings are created in the image of God and therefore possess inherent dignity and value.
Family and community:
Many traditions emphasize the importance of family and community, fostering strong relationships and supporting one another.
Social responsibility:
Many Judeo-Christian values encourage individuals to be actively involved in their communities and to work towards the common good.
Forgiveness:
The concept of forgiveness, both for oneself and others, is a core value in both Jewish and Christian traditions.
In terms of governance, the founders looked more to republican Rome than to the Bible. It is all there in the Federalist papers. The heroes they hoped to emulate would be found in the Roman forum, not the pages of the Bible. The current “fascination” of the right with Judeo-Christian ethics has more to do with manipulation of popular opinion than with reality. They do not believe in the witness of scripture anymore than they believe in the preamble of the Declaration of Independence. The treatment of immigrants is a case in point…
“Forgive me, I find this discussion tedious.”
You said it more directly.
I am really tired of the continued political emphasis on everything. It would help if all of us spent more time thinking and living out the values Jesus taught.
The discussion is about those Judeo-Christian values and do any of us really know what they are and how to actually see them and live them in our day to day contact with others. It doesn’t depend on politics to do that.
Yes the Sermon on the Mount is a good start. But again, besides “don’t judge…” does anyone really know what He taught?
“In terms of governance, the founders looked more to republican Rome than to the Bible. It is all there in the Federalist papers. ”
“They do not believe in the witness of scripture anymore than they believe in the preamble of the Declaration of Independence. ”
True, True and then the blame game starts. Yep tedious…
I hoped it would not devolve again into another political charged direction, I guess that is what is on people’s hearts.
Now that I’ve given more thought to this…as a Christian, my values have to come directly from Christ.
It is evident that we’ve abandoned His ethics to a large degree in a national sense…I’m not sure what the point of even bringing up the heritage is anymore.
TH,
I’m really not sure what you’re getting at.
I’ve taught the SOTM many times and I’m teaching a series on it again at present.
I pretty much know the material.
“…as a Christian, my values have to come directly from Christ.”
That is the point. We are not here to reestablish the Roman republic or Christendom. We are here to witness to the self-sacrificing love of Christ. No more and no less…
By the way, the church has made that witness under dictatorships, republics, monarchies and democracies. The mode of the government may change, but not the witness of the Church.
Michael
“I’m really not sure what you’re getting at.
I’ve taught the SOTM many times and I’m teaching a series on it again at present.
I pretty much know the material.
”
No offense to you. The subject was how do people define Judeo-Christian values and then it turns into a political bashing thread.
It proves to me most of us would rather gossip and point our fingers instead of actually learning and then doing. It says a lot about what is n our hearts.
I had no idea what “Judeo-Christian” values were, so I asked my self, and did the research to see what others said about it. I generally find what they say, from Jew to Christian, as pretty good ways to approach life.
The fact too many turn it into a political slogan and then mostly remain equally illiterate on both side of the political fence isn’t my problem.
I want to know and learn what Jesus taught, what the bible leads and then live it as best I can. It has helped me be content with what is going on in the world and emphasize what I can control in my daily life.
Yes I am extremely sick of the rabid political discussions.
Back to Sermon on the Mount. I will walk more than I am asked to.
I first heard the term “Judeo-Christian Values” while watching Francis Schaeffer’s film “Whatever Happened to the Human Race?” in 1979. I can’t deny that we seemed to be running on the moral memory of what we thought was a “Christian Culture”. Schaeffer was fighting to save America before it was too late. He was heavily influenced by Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism, which exists today as White Christian Nationalism and Project 2025. We are better off standing apart from empire than trying to baptize empire, even if it means we live as a minority.
Michael
Example of application:
We could hate how the USA has treated the “immigration” issues over the years and point our fingers at how bad it has been executed.
Or we could discuss how Christ taught values should guide our ideas about immigration. The subject is actually huge and far more than just who should be allowed into or deported from the USA.
It kind of reminds me of divorce. It’s easy to get married, but the wholesale destruction of so many lives through divorce is part of the discussion of Jesus in the day.
I guess we just can’t really have such discussions.
Thank you for the time and place.
“We could hate how the USA has treated the “immigration” issues over the years and point our fingers at how bad it has been executed.
Or we could discuss how Christ taught values should guide our ideas about immigration.”
I’ve been doing that online since about 2004…
“Judeo-Christian worldview” is a political term.
When I teach, I would never use that terminology because I’m teaching the Christian faith.
If anyone wants to have a discussion about how the ethics of Jesus apply to any political stance, I’m here for it.
“That is the point. We are not here to reestablish the Roman republic or Christendom. We are here to witness to the self-sacrificing love of Christ. No more and no less…”
Bears repeating…
“I’ve been doing that online since about 2004…”
Yes, but the political charged comments by so many seem to reign supreme.
One thing I found interesting studying the 1st Century Jewish teachers, traditions and Jesus’ words is they never spoke about the politicians of the day. It was explained to me when it was better/an insult to not mention them by name as if they didn’t exist and focus on the truth.
A Pastor I love, years ago taught me to never preach about a particular movie and how bad its values were. Rather always teach about what good values are and let others live them out.
Maybe similar to 1st Century teaching?
I’m off, thank you again for everything.
Michael I was going to leave and then saw this, “We are here to witness to the self-sacrificing love of Christ. No more and no less…”
Bears repeating…”
Can you define what that looks like in how we live and function together, individually, as a congregation, city, county, state, nation and world? You made a very broad and sweeping statement with that.
I will leave, sorry and thank you again.
TH,
I woke up this morning with trigger finger, so I’m keeping my responses relatively brief.
To be as succinct as possible, we apply Jesus examples of sacrificial love and covenant faithfulness to whatever situation we find ourselves in.
In a family or in a congregation, it looks like considering others more important than ourselves and learning to forgive and love in community.
Politically, it’s a whole different story.
As believers we live in a different kingdom…and you can’t run a nation like a kingdom.
The state has different responsibilities in front of God and has the power of the sword.
I can remind the state that we are to welcome the stranger … but how to do so with all the complications that brings requires great wisdom and is the responsibility of the state.
I can and do tell my congregation what our heart should be toward the migrant…and how participating in the lies and hatred toward them by some in the political system is brazen sin.
My hand is shot for a while…
Duane @ 2:08 pm:
Very much agreed.
In the Bible there is no such thing as ‘The Rights of Man’ (Thomas Paine).
You (generic you) were at the whim and fancy of some potentate or another, up to and including the big Kahuna in the sky.
I for one am exeedingly glad our Nation was not founded on the Christian religion, or any other religion for that matter.
The conflation of Natural Law with Judeo-Christian values is off base. Natural Law would be those things that all cultures at all time agree upon. There is nothing specifically Judeo-Christian about a prohibition on murder. All cultures have recognized that murder is wrong and have actively worked to suppress it in society. Long before the 10 Commandments, murder was wrong. There would obviously be some overlap between Natural Law and Judeo Christian values, because Natural Law are those things that all people agree upon.
Prager’s List is a bit of a nightmare.
#1 – I do not believe in the same god that Prager does, much less that of a Mormon or a Muslim, even though we all hold some connection to the same origin story. That said, I could certainly live in good community with a Buddhist or anyone outside of the Abrahamic religions as long as they are a good neighbor. This actively goes against what our country was founded upon, and creates divisions in creating a working society.
#2 – This is just objectively false. There are moral laws written long before the Hebrew bible.
#5 – I agree with him, but hard to say our country was founded on this value.
The rest are bad too, but Michael already spoke on those so I won’t pile on.
If Prager’s list is a good starting point for Judeo-Christian values, then yeah, I reject them outright.
In the Gospel of John Chapter 17 there is a lengthy discourse from Jesus about His and His Disciples relationship to the world around them.
The facts are easy to see, when one professes to follow Jesus and His teachings they are not of this world, however they still live in this world.
The OT took those who followed Moses out of Egypt. They were no longer part pf Egypt the were to be a separate/holy Nation of people who followed God.
What is common between the two? Separate from the world around them and yet still live in the world around them.
Some Christian sects, schisms do their best to separate themselves from the world around them, but in reality never fully do so. Why is that?
What I keep reading here are arguments about what is wrong with some sort of Judeo-Christian set of ideals (or any alternative list) and the people behind them and yet no one really says/write anything about how to live together.
We have to prosper together in spite of ourselves. The food we eat, the air we breath, the medicine, the electricity we use, the gas our cars are fueled by, the airplanes, the water we drink…
You get the point not one of us could ever live outside of this world. So what Christ centered and taught values make us a value to others in our world? Who do we provide for, help grow strong…?
Why does every conversation end up with fingers pointing to how bad others are and their political ideals. Are we really more political, racist, anti-semitic and immoral than we want to admit to and does this really fuel our discussions and hearts?
It’s tough being a Christ centered human being and I for one and glad that God said this,
“The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself (literally in His heart), “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.”
God’s grace is good!
What’s in our hearts?
Thank you Michael for your service!
#1 – According to a Rabbi from Nazareth, Prager is the son of Satan.
#2 – The Code of Hammurabi predates the Pentateuch by many hundreds of years. And the Code of Ur-Nammu is even older than that.
‘Why does every conversation end up with fingers pointing to how bad others are and their political ideals. Are we really more political, racist, anti-semitic and immoral than we want to admit to and does this really fuel our discussions and hearts?”
The conversation turns that way because politics affect the world we live in and the environment we practice our faith in.
At this current juncture in history the United States has the most anti-Christ administration in its history…and that spirit has infected the church as well.
Before we think about saving the country, we have to think about saving the church…and our prophetic calling addresses the church first.
We are in uncharted waters…and how we survive them and if we survive them is in question…and I don’t have any good answers at the moment.
Jesus himself did not seem to separate from the world, oddly enough.
In fact, He so LOVED the world.
This is another of those sayings I think we just get wrong, Its in the bible, and something was meant by it, but not at all the way we’ve used it.
Josh, assuming you are referring to Jn 3:16, what do you think Jesus meant?
My real point is that he was seen as a drunkard and whoremonger because of the company he so often kept.
Are you asking me what Jesus meant by John 3:16? It seems obvious to me. Maybe rephrase your question so I understand what you are getting at.
Josh,
That’s a whole separate discussion, but you’re right on track.
The creation was good and we are to steward and recognize it as such…not as a disposable hut soon to be burned…
OH, I see. I think you are misinterpreting my last sentence to be about John 3:16. That we have gotten it wrong. No.
It was said earlier that we have to separate from the world. My point is that Jesus didn’t seem to do that. I know the bible talks about this, but all of our efforts to separate from the world seem to take us further and further from Jesus example.
Sorry for all the Choppy responses. The last two were in response to Jean.
I do agree with Michael on creation.
We’re not called to separate from the world, but evil ones inside the church…
“When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.”
(1 Corinthians 5:9-11 NLT-SE)
I would make my application, but that would create a poop storm of major proportions…
Josh, you wrote:
“In fact, He so LOVED the world.” I recognize that phrase as coming from Jn 3:16.
Then you wrote:
“This is another of those sayings I think we just get wrong, Its in the bible, and something was meant by it, but not at all the way we’ve used it.”
What do you think that phrase means or the capitalized word means, which you think “we just get wrong”? If I know what you think it means, then I (or anyone else) can ask them self if, according to your understanding, they are getting it wrong.
This is not a trick question. I am trying to ask questions so that I do not misinterpret anyone.
Hey Jean – see my 11:56. My placement of that phrase was confusing. I don’t necessarily think we get John 3:16 wrong.
Okay, catching up, Josh already answered my question. Thanks.
I would be impossible to evangelize or carry out the great commission if Christians were called to separate from the world. However, I agree with Michael and 1 Cor. 5:9-11 when it comes to church fellowship.
This that you speak of, however, would completely defeat the Evangelical way of doing church, where Sunday mornings are usually an evangelistic outreach.
For instance, the church that I have been attending says it is a safe place for seekers, skeptics, or long time believers to fid their place in God’s story. It would be hard then to judge which ones in attendance were “the church” and which were not. Which should be separated from and which should not, etc.
This is one of those places where the further we get from Jesus, the more confusing it becomes, so I’ll just do my best to follow Jesus’ example.
Josh,
Fellowship has a specific meaning in a confessional Lutheran church. We welcome anyone and everyone to a service and agree that it is an evangelical event.
However, fellowship in the Lord’s body and blood is reserved to those who share our doctrines and who are penitent. This would be spot on with what Jesus did and with what the church universal followed for most of its history.
Do you question people about their sexual practices before the supper? Do you just take their word for it?
I get that you all agree on doctrine, but that is not what the verses Michael posted were about. It was sexual sin, greed, drunk, abusive…etc.
That does bring up the interesting question of if that was what Jesus did…
I don’t think so. Even in the last supper we see him serving Judas and Peter, who were living in opposition to him. Elsewhere he must have been dining with sinners often.
Is that the longstanding practice of the church? Sure. Often in hypocrisy, but sure, that has been the stated practice.
If you believe and have been baptized you are welcome at our table…
Josh,
You said quite a few things that one could respond to, but I don’t know if relitigating communion practices here again would be useful. Therefore, I will just leave the following comment in partial response to your 12:38pm comment:
There are only two types of people in the world: (1) penitent sinners; and (2) impenitent sinners. There are no people who are not sinners at all.
If you are an impenitent sinner, then that is a doctrinal issue, if you claim to be a Christian.
If you say, “that’s not a sin,” then that’s doctrinal. If you say, “my sin doesn’t matter,” then that’s doctrinal. If you say “I have sinned and I repent of my sin,” that also is doctrinal.
So you do an inquisition before the supper?
Interesting. I’d be interested to know when sons are included.
Which sins, not when sons. Uggh.