What Are The Rules?
Over the weekend I was informed by an ODM that we had been “turned over”, (the implication being to Satan) for speaking out against the ODM’s.
I’m too tired of it all to get mad, but I would like some clarification.
What are the rules?
As the ODM’s stack the carcasses of men of God like cordwood before winter…what are the rules?
I asked for what denial of essential doctrines Leonard Sweet was condemned and got no answer.
What heresy has Gayle Erwin or Eugene Peterson personally embraced and taught?
How about Rick Warren?
What are the concrete, no discussion allowed, written in stone standards that make one preacher a wolf and one a shepherd?
One more question…
When Skip Heitzig earned headlines for a lack of ethics and character, you guys attacked me if you said anything at all.
When we exposed the dirt in the CSN scandal you did the same.
There was no outcry for people hurt in the Kempner or Michaels scandals, just silence.
You all love David Hocking…
What’s wrong with this picture?
Finally, you need to know that Leonard Sweets response to me was completely gracious and apologetic to Skip that he had “caused” this problem.
He sounded like a person you could sit down with and discuss your differences with intelligently and in a God honoring fashion.
The guy loves Jesus…but I guess that only gets you so far in some circles today.
In other matters…
You can get arrested in Britain for preaching that homosexuality is a sin.
Michael,
I still think that you pay these people too much attention. I completely ignore the ODM’s. Completely. I have 1 lady in our fellowship who follows that stuff. She is a sweetheart and about once a month she reads somehting that spins her out. I just love her, point her to Jesus, and ask her if any of the things those folks say about Calvary Chapel is happening at our fellowship. She says, ‘oh no’. And I say, look, if I start doing that stuff, poke me in the eye in love. She smiles and we go on until the next month’s spin out.
Most of these folks have never been to any of the places that they are against. Just folks who sit in front of their computers all day long, never interact with the lost and divide the body of Christ needlesly. I’m not saying we should be discerning. But Jesus loves His bride and isn’t all that keen on those who like to point out her blemishes (perceived or otherwise). If you ignore them, well, it’s like they don’t even exist!
Just my thoughts
Happy Monday!
Daniel,
There is a measure of wisdom in what you write.
The other side of the coin is that I know that they are also causing much difficulty in some ministries that just can’t be ignored any longer.
Michael, your questions are clear & well stated, though I think interacting with these ministries is like negotiating with angry bees for their honey.
Michael, I have to agree with Daniel, in that too much attention is paid to the ODM’s. In our church I don’t know of anyone who even knows they exist. If I were to make an issue about them from the pulpit, I guess then that their interest would be piqued and suddenly the ODM’s would appear on the radar screen. In my opinion, they are utterly irrelevant. I do know of some CC pastors that endorse them and, ultimately, allow them to do their thinking for them. That is sad but that is their choice. What an ugly place to be mentally and spiritually. I know that to simply ignore them will not make them disappear, but the more we give time and attention to them, the more self-important they’ll be and more emboldened in their lunacy. My two cents . . . .
As for who is a wolf, heretic . . . . . that is often a subjective argument, but Jesus did say that “by their fruits you shall know them.” So, I suppose that is the primary criterion. But even then, we can only know so much, we don’t have ALL the information so we must tread lightly in assigning such a label to a Christian leader, although some are so obvious that it doesn’t take much discernment in drawing a conclusion. (By the way, I hope I never again hear some arrogant Christian tell me, in judging someone else, “I’m just a fruit inspector”!!)
I will be in prayer for you, Michael, now that you have been “turned over”. Really, such smugness on their part in incomprehensible.
Bryan,
I’m honestly confused and bewildered by these folks.
Everyone here knows that I am dogmatically Calvinist in my theology and I am committed to the historic creeds and confessions.
That doesn’t stop me from enjoying and learning from the entire Body of Christ.
We can disagree without condemnation…or we should be able to.
David,
If your congregation is unaware of all this nonsense it’s beyond wise to keep them that way!
🙂
FWIW – one day i woke up to the fact that the little cadre of vipers that were determined to protect our little corner of the world from me were keeping me very close to the Lord – i am by nature, double minded and unstable – God is immutable – i think He begins as that “still point in an ever turning world” as they used to put on coffee mugs, but praise Him, He actually can be internalized and He prefers to manifest Himself out of us – my morning quiet moment from Hoekstra used this verse: 2Cor. 3:3
2Cr 3:3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts…
Michael,
I wanted to exhort you on something. Now remember, I knew you before you were the ‘Phoenix Preacher’ (buying great books!).
I have seen PP evolve from a total battleground (remember those days) into a ministry that has some enormous reach. More than you know, I’m sure.
What if you didn’t discuss the ODM’s or the Todd Bentleys (the Nat’l Enquirer type of Church news) but focused on the things you are really passionate about. Promoting Jesus, the Scriptures, unity in the Church. Not that those things are never mentioned but not the centerpiece. THe ministry would be way less controversial but even more edifying and worship evoking. But still as far reaching.
Obviously, I am not trying to tell you what to do (that is up to you). BUt it is one thing that all of us can learn from Chuck Smith. He is good at ignoring those who take pot shots at him and staying the course for what he is called to.
Blessings to you brother!
Again just my thoughts
Daniel,
You always cleaned out the good stuff before I got there! 😉
I hear you…boy, do I hear you.
We’re evolving in that direction… trying to be sensitive to what He wants us to do daily.
I’m going to take this as a confirmation of what I think I’ve been hearing in my heart…
For everyone else, Daniel and I both frequented a tiny used bookstore full of treasures.
I’d get there and Daniel would have already gleaned the fields…scrunching through the tiny aisles with an armload of books…
I’ll always remember him that way…
Daniel is speaking good words.
There are some days where you gotta take a sword to the dragon, but I try to spend most of my days to promote the good rather than stay in skirmishes. (that actually drives the skirmishers crazy!)
So much of the ODM world is destroying what they claim to be protecting.
God is holy, but he also seems to take joy breaking the rules that men like to set up. I am often surprised by His ways because they are not like mine. Stupid me.
Yesterday morning one of those types of events took place. At the end of our services we have a team known as our Sunday morning response team take the stage to meet with people who want prayer, want to receive Christ, and so on. They grab a red badge on a lanyard so people know who they are.
Well, my 17 year old son (with Down syndrome) on his accord decided to come downm don a badge, and take a spot on the stage. I didnt see his little maneuver, and if I had I probably would have stopped him. But I was busy talking with someone so he pretty much went undetected.
A few moments later I glanced to get a sense of how many people had come forward. And there was my kid with a women in her 60’s praying with her. Actually she was doing the praying. He was just there for her. My first thought was, “Uh oh,” but I just rolled with it. The woman finished the prayer, and Aaron gave her a big hug. Her eyes were filled with tears. I realized a “God-moment” had just taken place, and if it had been up to me I would have put the kabosh on it.
Michael asked what are the rules. I think it comes down to two things: Love God. Love people. That is the grid for everything I do.
Yes, I teach scripture as God’s clear Word, but I have to do it in love…as one beggar showing another beggar where to find the bread.
PH,
You just lifted my head …what a wonderful story.
I’ll get through today now…
PH, loved the story of your son’s move and the dear woman – that’s God’s grace moving
‘Over the weekend I was informed by an ODM that we had been “turned over”, (the implication being to Satan) for speaking out against the ODM’s.’
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Spoken like the authoritarian windbags they are.
Great graphic, BTW, Michael.
And I’m with Daniel — let’s focus on all the good stuff!
Definitely not trying to tell you what to do. Just some thoughts.
Michael, those were the days. I remember getting paid, running to that store and dropping it all on great old books. Jonathan Edwards, Lloyd Jones, Owen, von Rad, etc. Going home and devouring the books and just being blown away. That was before I was ‘in the ministry’. Just getting my mind blown! Good times.
Is that store still there?
Is there any good books left there or are they all in your library now?
PH
Thank you for sharing that story. Made my day!
Daniel,
I haven’t been there in years…the internet is more convenient and sadly, I too have abandoned the local store.
I might take that drive this week…
I’m also with Daniel, and I’m encouraged by where this conversation is going. Reminds me of a wise man’s saying…
“I’m not devoting my life to
finding a lot of enemies to attack – I’ve got some – but I want to
devote my life to hammering on truth!” -John Piper
Michael,
Just bought my permits to start cutting for next winters firewood.
I don’t care if Sweet loves Jesus. What’s his opinion of The Shack?
The church knows nothing of unity, nor do they want it. The bulk of unity is based on the wrong things and we eventually rally around a cause that sends us like lemmings over the cliff.
Michael,
That is part of why I go to that bookstore from which I called you from. I interact with the other locals…
Centy,
This is where I have become a slave to the urgent…no time for real people in real places in person.
I would go over and spend an hour or two talking about great books and ideas with the owner and the place was so tiny everyone would join in the discussion…he always would have to tell me the books I would have loved to buy if Daniel hadn’t already sniped them. 🙂
Today I know more about what goes on in Albuquerque than in Medford…
Very interesting…on so very many levels…both the original post and the commentary…and the history of the PP.
God has used that kid of ours in so many ways I would have never imagined.
This is what he looks like:
http://picasaweb.google.com/sleddog1710/SLEDDOG?authkey=Z_wboN0W8P4#5332473991546409922
I had a great weekend with Kent Hughes. There were only about 35 of us, so we were able to spend some quality time with Kent not only listening to his teaching but getting some one on one time as well. I had not seen Kent in over 30 years. We both went our separate ways from So Cal, he to Chicago and me to Oregon. He became famous, and I drifted away to obscurity :smile:.
Bob,
I’m truly jealous…you got to learn from a master.
Good on you…it will bear fruit in your ministry, I trust.
PH,
I have a brother with Downs…blessings come in disguise so often…
If this means that this place is going to be:
— Devoting itself to building up the body, instead of attacking those of whom it disapproves ….
— Distinguishing between watershed doctrinal aberrance and people you just don’t happen to like ….
— Understanding that making the Body healthy enough to fight off disease is better than stabbing bacteria with an icepick ….
then
I will be doing the Toyota leap.
Daniel F:
“What if you didn’t discuss the ODM’s or the Todd Bentleys (the Nat’l Enquirer type of Church news) but focused on the things you are really passionate about. Promoting Jesus, the Scriptures, unity in the Church. Not that those things are never mentioned but not the centerpiece. THe ministry would be way less controversial but even more edifying and worship evoking. But still as far reaching.”
I like what you wrote here and actually find these controversial subject really turn my mind away from what is important. But, our culture is filled with “sound bite” reporting and it is the squeaky wheel which gets the attention.
I believe without all the subjects Michael has put on this site it would probably be just another scripture commentary web page with just a few people visiting it. His “Nat. Enquirer” approach has brought people into the “conversation” (sounds really emergent doesn’t it) and made people think about what is right, good and God fearing.
Keep it up (Michael and Daniel) and keep pointing people towards God and His grace in Jesus Christ!
Px2,
That was powerful…really powerful.
Romans 12
“I believe without all the subjects Michael has put on this site it would probably be just another scripture commentary web page with just a few people visiting it. His “Nat. Enquirer” approach has brought people into the “conversation” (sounds really emergent doesn’t it) and made people think about what is right, good and God fearing.”
Yep…you caught me… 🙂
hey Bob!!! Did you ask Hughes about The Shack?
Px2 –
I was just thinking of that very verse in 1 John when reading the article today.
I’d say great minds think alike, but I don’t want to insult your mind by bringing it down to my level. 🙂
oh come on now Tim, you’re the smartest guy from Texas that I know!! 8)
He loved it!
Centy
Really, I was too busy asking him about Foster. 😉
I find the ODM types tend to be very bright people, and they use their God-given intelligence in a myriad of ways that end up tearing a lot of stuff down rather than building up. I don’t know them personally, but from their writings, videos and sermons I wonder if they got an extra helping in the brain department, but somehow came up a little short in the heart department. They just drill the facts and informantion, never taking a breath to realize they are suffocating the issues. It’s all done in God’s name, yet as they operate they violate much of scriptures directives.
““What if you … focused on the things you are really passionate about. Promoting Jesus, the Scriptures, unity in the Church. … THe ministry would be way less controversial but even more edifying and worship evoking. …” Daniel F
i don’t pretend to know answers to this morning’s ponders… but i sure thot Michael was doing a pretty good job of just that very thing – sometimes it’s necessary to tip a few tables over isn’t it? 😕
Px2…and the other PP pastors on here…and Dansk…
Do any of you believe that Michael is in a way an ODM with his coverage of CC and Bentley and others?
Is it “hating” your brother to correct him, as long as it is done in love?
How do you define “doing it in love?” Is it the tone you use? The words you choose? When Paul rebuked Peter…is that an example to follow?
Did Christ “love” the Pharisees when He spoke to them? How about Peter?
These are honest questions…part of me is having a hard time resolving all of this discussion…and the greater discussion that underlies all of the PP.
Centy –
I’m hoping that was a compliment, but I’m not sure. 😆
Px2 –
I agree. John has some pretty sobering warnings concerning those who hate believers. That’s not a place I want to find myself in.
Good to hear about your Texas heritage! Hopefully you can make it down here sometime.
We aren’t supposed to stick our heads in the sand. We do have to be on guard against heresy and sinful actions. But that is not the whole of ministry.
To set up shop as an ODM is a risky business, IMHO. To stay in business, you spend all your time hunting up enemies.
I often go back to 1 Corinthians 13 to be reminded of what love looks like. It thinks well of others. It forgives. It keeps no record of wrongs.
Matthew 7 also tells us to look at ourselves before we go judging others. Not an easy discipline, but so important. We’ve got to be able to admit when we are wrong.
I guess it depends on where you live. This ODM is contagious and being that it was endorsed by CCOF for so long a lot of people I know read it. I guess it’s like a flu bug, and when you are on So Cal the Christians are packed in so close to each other this stuff spreads more.
But those I know who read it take it with a grain of salt. Here and there I would get someone who would get wound up, but for the most part people take it about as serious at they take a tabloid.
By the way Michael I’ve been turned over to the devil before. He didn’t take me.
DMW,
He hasn’t shown any more interest in me than usual either… 🙂
“Do any of you believe that Michael is in a way an ODM with his coverage of CC and Bentley and others?”
No. My experience with ODMs have been to repeatedly witness the logical fallacy of “Guilt by Association.” (Pastor X hung out with Author Y, and Author Y is a new-age heretic, so Pastor X must be as well.) It’s an “accuse first, ask questions later…if at all” sort of approach that does little but spread falsehood, innuendo, and worse.
I haven’t always agreed with the stories Michael has followed here, but I know this for sure: as much as possible, Michael always attempts to go straight to the source. That’s not a quest for blood, but an attempt to seek out the truth.
On Bentley – that’s another issue altogether. Bentley’s actions & heresies are well-documented (they had nightly footage of the guy on satellite TV, for crying out loud). To call him out as the false teacher he is, is not hatred – it’s simply stating the obvious.
I think there is a whole lot of people who take discernment ministries opinions seriously…
Believe,
The church today is full issues and problems. I think Michael is doing a service for the body of Christ……. To some degree, the same could be said about the Berean Call, Moriel Ministries, Jackie, and Roger Oakland, even though I would agree with them far less than with Michael. Some portions of Oakland’s latest book was spot on. The last thread I read at Jackie’s website revealed her heart and care for the church. I like Prasch (although not nearly as much since his latest outburst), but he needs to drop the east coast attitude and enroll in charm school.
It is difficult to deal with error. It rocks your world and keeps your heart in turmoil…. if it doesn’t, then possibly your conscience is seared. There is also the issue of balance, and how easy it is to get knocked off center.
How do we speak the truth in love? This is the area in which all objectivity goes out the window. We cheer the polemic discourse flowing from the ones whom we agree with and vilify the rest of the lot. Too often the discourse turns sour and we take on the same nature of those whom we want to call into repentance.
Tim,
Yes, that was a compliment with a little bit of self entertainment on the side.
And Tim ………….. forgot the smiley for ya 8)
ODMs sometimes remind me of the Wizard of Oz…big booming voices that seek to demand attention and respect, but in reality its just a little insecure guy at the controls behind that curtain…
Believe,
I think there are two critical differences between this site and the ODM’s.
First, I’m saying what I say in the context of the community.
When I’m wrong, I can be corrected and when I’m right, opposition is still allowed to speak.
Over on the “Trial of Heitzig” thread Jim Jacobson has clearly stated his opposition to my article…and we can discuss it as brothers.
The second thing is one I had to learn, that God had to develop…I’m ready to forgive and embrace those we talk about if the issues get resolved.
But ODMs are not harmless. I recently witnessed a case where a guy crossed them and they banded together with a strong goal of giving the guy a bad name throughout his community. All of this was done through emails sent out to churches and various ministries.
PH,
Wow…did it work?
Good points, Michael…
Plus, Centy has my phone number and isn’t afraid to chew me when need be… 😉
Truthfully, a lot of people have that number and I’m blessed when they use it.
I have to believe to large degree it did. I mean if you are a church in a large metro area and you get an email saying so and so is a heretic and a tale-bearer, watch out for him, etc., I mean, who’s not going to look at that guy through a different lens. The man’s been marked and the ODMs pat themselves on the back and rejoice in the fact that they’ve spared the church from another “unclean one.”
PH,
Once they’ve marked you, the stain remains…that’s why we have to keep talking about this.
I will say I think that the guy underestimated the ODMs, and acted a bit foolishly in the way he took them on. But because the ODMs operate as a network, he soon realized that he wasn’t doing battle with a few people, but a whole band of folks who will go to great lengths to defend each other and crush any opposition. He wandered into the dragon’s lair and came out utterly smelling like smoke. To go to war with ODMs demands a lot of wisdom and discipline!!!
Just jumping in to note that a few weeks back Michael called Ryrie’s teachings ‘borderline heresy’ laregly due to implication and lumping him in with another teacher.
I was allowed, through the comments, to show that was both inaccurate and unfair.
Michael recanted.
THAT is the difference, in illustration, between a site like this and the ODMs.
Michael ROCKS!! 8) (that was for you Scott)
Michael said, “The second thing is one I had to learn, that God had to develop…I’m ready to forgive and embrace those we talk about if the issues get resolved.”
Yes, me, too. I believe that is a significant difference…and shows the “heart”…and that the underlying context is “in love”…if it were just to win an argument or “be right”…then why do we yearn for reconciliation and restoration in each of these cases?
I know my own heart…and while I am attached to the flesh and the chief of sinners…and have a mind that won’t turn off and wrestles with all kinds of issues…I do sincerely yearn for Truth…and yearn for repentance, reconciliation and restoration. I don’t believe that those are fruits of bitterness or hatred.
I suppose if someone turns another over to Satan, s/he is claiming apostolic authority? Just where does that idea fall in the pale of orthodoxy? 😉
I turned over 150 lbs of tri-tip and 80 of chicken this weekend, not because I’m an ODM but a BBQ.
For the simple fact that PP takes and encourages comments is a profound difference from the majority of ‘dem udder sites.
If you were to take the NT and assign a percentage to various topics, you would find that warning people about what is false in probably in the top 10%.
Confronting what if false is a important part of the minister. It means we have to keep our eyes open and watch over the church we have been called to.
Which means spending some time investigating the latest fad doctrine so we can protect people from running away with it.
A counterfeiters goal is to get what is worthless to look as real as possible. If counterfeiters were to make their counterfeit money red and purple everyone would be able to spot it, but in this age it is harder than ever to tell the counterfeiters work from what if real. The same hold true for spiritual things.
But when something looks wrong and feels wrong it means its time to look closer not just throw out everything that doesn’t feel right to you. You wouldn’t do that with your money and you shouldn’t do it with Spiritual things.
I appreciate the info Michael puts about the ODM’s and the ensuing discussion he allows because it has helped me sort out some things I had previously read on ODM sites that I was conflicted about. Now I am a nobody who is not “in the ministry”, but before I had discovered the PP, I had read some things about certain people or ministries that, at the very least, left me concerned. Although some these things did not seem right to me, I was left with some doubts as to whether I should continue to trust some of these people and ministries that were written about. When I found this site, I was able to get the other side of the story (and a side that also allowed discussion) which eased my concerns. Although the original info I had read on the ODM sites did not sit well with me, I had no balance to it. In finding this site, I found the balance.
This is a complicated issue. I would say, for the most part, the ODM’s are our brothers. If this is true, how are we to deal with them? Or would you aregue that they aer not our brothers?
Josh,
I have consistently said the the only resolution is to have open discussion with each other.
They need to define what they consider the bounds of orthodoxy and be clear and concise when criticizing the brethren.
I believe with all my heart that these issues must be worked out in the church, with the church, in community.
While I sometimes get frustrated with the ODM’s and would rather ignore them all together, they are attacking, and damaging the ministries of some amazing, gracious, and God-fearing, God-serving, leaders, such as Gayle Erwin, and I have been blessed to see PP stand up and defend and support when it is appropriate.
I think it’s totally fair for a ministry (even an ODM) to investigate things that sound “fishy” to them, but I think they better be able to stand up to the smell test too. It seems to me that when they are challenged, the ODM’s don’t want to have a conversation, they want to do a drive-by destruction campaign. That is VERY different than what I have experienced here at PP>
I agree with Josh that I believe that the ODMers are our brothers (or sisters) in Christ, but they are among some of our weakest brothers. No wonder they demand that everyone line up with them!
I have also seen the effect of the ODM’s in my Calvary, at least to some degree. I am not plugged into the leadership and the inner workings of my Calvary, so I can only speak to what comes from the pulpit and from the thoughts and attitudes I have witnessed from other church-goers. But over the last few years, I have heard enough comments denigrating the likes of Rick Warren or The Shack or the Emergent and/or Emerging Church. Non-dispensational theology has been described from the pulpit as “junk theology”. Guest speakers have included Dave Hunt and Warren Smith.
Now these things are not the overwhelming focus of each and every service or teaching. But certainly the ODM’s have had at least some influence on my church. I, for one, have learned how to further research and learn about and work out these issues the ODM’s raise. I have learned how to eat the meat and spit out the bones. I just don’t know how many others in the church do this or may rather just take everything said from the pulpit as gospel truth. In my experiences, there are certainly some who blindly swallow everything as gospel truth.
>>>Non-dispensational theology has been described from the pulpit as “junk theology”.<<<
So everything believed by all Christians until the mid-1800's is junk theology.
When someone says something like this I have to conclude that they are just very poorly educated and don't know any better.
Although…. I once heard a CC pastor with a masters degree in theology tell a class that only the premillennial view was biblical and that all other views were the liberal beliefs of people who didn't believe the Bible. So you never know.
I should clarify the “junk theology” comment. It was made in reference to eschatology. So it did not encompass theologies as a whole. But when it came to eschatology, we were told that we shouldn’t be ashamed to be dispensationalists, which in and of itself is certainly not a wrong thing to say. However, we were then warned that alternatively to dispensational eschatology, there were a lot of “junk theologies” out there that taught things like there being no literal millenium or the church replacing Israel, or most prophecy already being fulfilled, etc. If I remember right, I believe this statement was accompanied by a warning that these types of things could lead us astray. Although I lean pre-trib/pre-mill, I strongly disagreed with these other eschatologies being referred to as “junk theologies” and being warned about their “dangers”.
Here’s what I think about the ODMs. I think it’s a very easy, fun “ministry” that is exciting. You get to pretend that you know a lot of stuff, you get to put up exciting web sites full of breaking news, alarms, warnings and reports and what-not. You get to be your own little news hound, a regular CNN. Everything’s a heresy to someone so the source material is endless and requires no brains at all to spend the day surfing the web and seeing who is friends with who and who’s speaking where. It’s like TMZ for Christians. So exciting! You don’t actually have to know anything about anything. (Personally, I think most of these people have fallen for the ancient heresy of Nestorianism, but never mind.) If you can write well, or a least, write a lot, you will gain a following unto yourself and before you know it, you are an instant authority on everything and you have your own ministry and you don’t even need to get out of your pyjamas thanks to our friend Mr. Google. This sort of “ministry” appeals to baby Christians but is the last type of ministry they should involve themselves in as they lack maturity and common sense.
If we are opposed to the ODM tactics…we have to embrace them as brothers and sisters…and try to correct them in love (however that plays out practically…dunno)…otherwise, we are no better than they are…IMO.
Doesn’t mean we have to be in agreement with them…but we need to remember that they are His also…as tough as that may be at times…saying this to myself as much as to everyone…also being reminded not to be an ODM myself…while still trying to discern…and still trying to tell the truth as I perceive it…recognizing that some things are Absolute Truth…like what happened to me and my brothers growing up…and others are Subjective Interpretation, like my opinions or theories about certain Spiritual issues, situations, doctrines or prophecies…
Believe,
Just be prepared for some decent sized bite marks on your hide! When you’re in the business of telling everyone what’s right and wrong, any correction…even fair and loving…ain’t much appreciated!
Apologetics is not a good subject for new or immature believers to spend a lot of time pursuing. I remember many years ago when I was in my 20’s and just getting serious about being a believer. I had just starting attending CC, as a matter of fact. Because this was emphasized from the pulpit and on the local Christian radio station I got very involved in studying about Jehovah’s Witnesses. (I now realize that this was because I was a little shaky myself on the Trinity and had a unspoken fear that the JWs might be right.) Anyway, full of zeal and foolishness I used to follow the JWs as they went from house to house. I’d stand behind the JW and when they gave the hapless home owner a verse, I’d recite a contrary verse. (The predominantly Catholic residents thought we were all crazy.)
I used to avail myself to help Christians argue with JWs and Mormons they invited over. This was a load of fun, believe me! Lots of adrenalin, felt very important, doing God’s work…. or so I thought.
None of this bore any good fruit at all and thankfully, this phase didn’t last very long. It was the last thing I needed to be doing and my church should not have been encouraging me in it, either. I needed to learn how to love God and love my neighbor first.
I know the last few years I spent in the pulpit were years of increasing frustration. Because I had about 30 minutes a week to try to offer the Truth. People for the most part won’t invest themselves in study. They seem to think that to listen to a 30 minute message is enough. And if they listen to a whole bunch of 20 minute messages on the radio and they consider themselves Biblical scholars.
Mat 22:36* “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37* Jesus said to him,” ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38* “This is the first and great commandment.
With ALL your MIND —
I think that PP is a place where people are at least using their minds.
We do live in a time when Western Culture is at a cross roads, perhaps we are seeing the death of Western Culture. The world around us, not just the Church has changed it’s world view. It’s not just what people think that has changed it is the way they think that has changed. We live in a time when many have lost the art of thinking altogether and just follow the latest trend. The TV has so conditioned people into getting their information in small sound bites that it is all but impossible to get people to actually use their brain for more that a few minutes at a time.
It’s like a battle between Plato and Confuses in the US today. It is like the meeting of two seas, where the currents are dangerous and deep.
The church lost it’s influence in society over a hundred years ago, and now it loosing and perhaps already lost all credibility.
When the issues are complex and one needs to take a time to analyze and think through all the new thoughts and beliefs that are thrown at them, and simultaneously we have a culture that needs all their information broken into small sound bites. So in a time when the art of thinking is all but a lot art, the need to use our head is greater than ever.
As long as peoples refrigerators are full and their TVs and air conditioners work I don’t see much chance of any change in the right direction.
I don’t see any way things are going to change. Unless there is Pain involved. Funny how Pain will get your attention like nothing else will. Perhaps a time of great suffering is the only thing that will save us for ourselves.
I really wish folks did not take so seriously ODMs, but the more places I look, the more people I find lapping up the vomit, pontificating the regurgitated vomit, and lynching verbally all but some unknown few “remnant” teachers who apparently have like 23 people going to their church, and podcast to at least 3 more per week.
ODMs are ineffective ministry, non-conducive to the furtherance of the Kingdom, and frankly I feel that the ropes need to start swinging for the REAL wolves in sheep clothing.
“What are the concrete, no discussion allowed, written in stone standards that make one preacher a wolf and one a shepherd?”
I really want some of these wolves to start explaining the answer to that.
anyone hear Glenn Beck today? he’s need of discernment ministries 🙂 he said that he studied Moses all weekend and came to the conclusion that the burning bush was “truth” and we all need to follow the burning bush … or something like that – might be right, tho … dunno 🙄
my question is do the ODMs go after these guys? or just us … (‘us’ as in ‘the Church’)
If they get into your church (ODMs or their ardent followers) you are in for the ride of your life…our church had a BAD infestation about four years ago, prior to my arrival. The church leadership finally figured out that they needed to chase the pests out, but it was not without a lot of damage done…
ODM’s have a place as long as the first place of “Discernment” is their own intentions and attitudes. When Jesus taught to remove the Log in our own eye before we removed the splinter from someone else’s it almost certainly meant this very type of thing.
ODM’s have a place as long it is done with fear and trembling. When James wrote that not many should presume to be teachers because they would be judged more strictly that would seemingly include the authors of the ODM’s.
Of course that also applies to all of us….and actually is one of the reasons I do appreciate Michael, even though I don’t always agree with him, because he seems to get this.
“I know the last few years I spent in the pulpit were years of increasing frustration. Because I had about 30 minutes a week to try to offer the Truth. People for the most part won’t invest themselves in study. They seem to think that to listen to a 30 minute message is enough. And if they listen to a whole bunch of 20 minute messages on the radio and they consider themselves Biblical scholars. ”
Man, isn’t that the truth…
Wow. Turned over to Satan? How would they claim that authority?
Because they . . . . well, in their minds, they have the upper hand. They’ve got more hand than anyone here! When you have appointed yourself as a spiritual watchdog, that delusion can lead you do do just about anything, and then sanctify it, falsely believing that God is on YOUR side. Some of the most heinous things ever done have bee by such people.
David,
You think they have some kind of magic devil leash? They sure are a spooky group.
pzz
Piney,
How did you get rid of them? I figured you might have put a string attached to a stick holding up a big box with a Benny Hinn handkerchief as bait? ….Just kidding, but really, how did you?
Did you yell “look there they go… the Calvinists are getting away?.. “and point to another church down the road?…
David M — best watch out our I will send some fruit inspectors you way and they will bring their watch dogs with them 🙂
Good word Daniel (all the way back up to #1). 😉
I ask several of our leaders the other day what percentage of our people they felt have been “exposed” to the “discernment ministry spin”? The answer: maybe 2 or 5%.
Then I asked, what percentage, have actually been “influenced” by their spin…not that many! The few who have, they’re easily confused with others who have their boxers in a twist.
Our conclusion was that very very few in our contextual setting, know about, care about or are influenced by the ODM’s.
That said, last week I received a call from a gal in our church who was approached by another lady(who left our church) demanding she stop her bible study thru the book of Esther w/ Beth Moore…reason? She got the idea from LHT’s that Beth’s a heretic!
There is definitely a built in tension with this stuff:
ignore it & it takes over the yard like a weed.
emphasize it & Jesus gets tossed into the margins.
Tolkien had great insight in his book, when an argument breaks out over the Ring, Gandolph shouts to the quarling group;
“Do you not understand? While you bicker amongst yourselves, Sauron’s power grows.”
Pineapple Head,
The story about your son made my day. Thank you so much.
Bryan, anyone who quotes Tolkien’s LOTR in that context is a real champ as far as I’m concerned 🙂
This all reminds me of what one of my professors said about the internet. “Anyone with an axe to grind can set up a website or a blog and say whatever they want. Beware!!!”
That said. I have found Phoenix Preacher to be one of the better balanced sites on the web.
I remember the LHT guy writing of which Calvary Chapel pastors he “sanctions.” Who gives him the right to sanction anyone. Some folks on the internet think they have more power than they really have.
Piney, Thank you so much for that story about your son. That was so encouraging. Give him a hug for me!
Some of you have asked about the ODM’s and their influence and I can guarantee that they have great influence on many “wounded” believers. The church I attend is full of people who spend many a Sat. or Friday or entire weekends attending meetings led by ODM’s and then come to church on Sunday filled with fear and accusation of other Christians.
I think for many it is believers who have come out of churches that have embraced Todd Bentley’s types, or churches that have stopped teaching the Word and they start listening to the ODM’s (who may have very good teaching when they aren’t slaying other believers) but because of their lack of love and accusations against anyone who doesn’t tow their line, the “wounded” believers just suck in everything the ODM’s spew out.
Anyway, this is what I am seeing.
I really appreciate what Michael is doing here.