XXIV. Of Speaking in the Congregation in such a Tongue as the people understandeth
It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the Primitive Church to have public Prayer in the Church, or to minister the Sacraments, in a tongue not understanded of the people.
When I was a kid, we attended a church where people would stand up in the moment of silence, and start speaking Yamaha Suzuki Honda Kawasaki, and someone else would unload a “turn or burn” type message. I don’t know if any of it was real. I would like to think it was. What do you think?
I agree with this article.
Been in a lot of services with unintelligible utterances. I would say its mostly people caught up in emotion, doing what their tradition tells them to do.
Yes let’s rewrite the New Testament. Good idea.
“Been in a lot of services with unintelligible utterances.”
So have I – but it is usually the Evangelical pastor’s preaching. 😉
This Article has little to with speaking in tongues. It has more to do with having ones liturgy done in a language that no one understands – like Latin was for the RC church.
We will miss the in intial point if we take these Articles out of their Reformation heritage.
But I would agree, no tongues without an interpreter.
@ #4 – Woops 🙂 Good point. Seeing as the Pentecostal movement didn’t start until 1905-ish, my #1 is rather silly.
MLD @ #3 – Good one 🙂
Aside from the tradition of Pentecostals who have come to practice “speaking in tongues”, then waiting for an “interpretation”, something which is a topic for another post, the Church of England’s text is initially speaking of The Latin Mass. I agree, it’s not helpful to sit in on a rite which is not in my common language.
Moreover, after journeying from a church which insisted that The KJV was the best and most reliable, and hearing the entire culture of that church use it, it was supremely refreshing to be a part of congregations which used NIV or other modern renderings of the bible, and jarring to hear a new pastor using the KJV.
The thing I’ve experienced is that if the KJV is used, then the teacher reads, then quickly says, “in other words…” allowing for the spinning of yarns and theological pondering which are more often than not some distinctive statement that is hardly the main point of what the text is about.
It also keeps the simple experience of hearing the narrative away from our younger generations or those outside of the church bubble.
Plain English to plain English speakers with commentary that is contextual, is that too much to ask?
…and in California it’s usually not “honda kawasaki”, its “shondala immala…” 😉
#5 “Seeing as the Pentecostal movement didn’t start until 1905-ish..”
Some Pentecostals try to make the case that there were other groups in history before 1905 that experienced the gifts of the Spirit, tracing their tribes lineage to earlier groups. There were some groups in the Reformation era, as well as the Montanists that Tertullian hung out with around 200AD.
Yeah, or the multi-level marketing language.
Shambala Shaklee!
@7 – Yes, I know (though I think it’s a stretch, really.) Still, my experience was a direct result of Azusa Street.
Shun da law, buy a honda!
G: “…a church which insisted that The KJV was the best and most reliable, and hearing the entire culture of that church use it…”
Had the same experience for quite a few years. Most of the CC’s around here use NKJV, but our pastor has been using NASB for years, and just announced that he’ll be transitioning to ESV. What a rebel!
Lutheran,
Love it!
So, yeah, the tongues/interpretation/prophesy thing from my Charismatic experience, how interesting, because as I read the Pauline Corinthian text, a person who speaks in an unknown tongue within the congregation is speaking praise and worship :: to God :: so it follows that an “interpretation” would not be some “message” from God to all of us but more like someone saying, “she said, ‘God, you are glorious, ever merciful, my heart sings to you of your goodness, your power, and your care for me… my words cannot express… I am at a loss…'”
…and who wouldn’t love to hear such recognition of Jesus!?
G,
The other funny one I heard from a Lutheran pastor, ex-charismatic:
Pentecostal girl::
“Shecomeonahonda”
Interesting. Modern day speaking in tongues on many levels appears to be the dark age equivalent of having the mass in Latin with a narcissistic twist to fit the culture we live in.
I think it’s “real” to the folks trying (sincerely) to “do” the book of Acts. However, I think it is psychosomatic and forced and not really the Holy Spirit, in the same manner as Acts.
I think the Cessationists are correct. I don’t see any real evidence today in literal Miracles that aren’t medically explainable nor do I see any real “tongues” experiences where someone starts speaking a “real” language/tongue that they didn’t know before.
I see lots of sincere Charismatics speaking Klingon or some other made-up gibberish in a sincere effort to be connect with God and be more spiritual.
Now, while I think the rank-and-file are sincere….I think many of the Leaders of the Charismatic Movement are not. I think many of them are Profiteers and Exploiters of the vulnerable and gullible and are making a TON of money off of selling their Snake Oil.
Funny thing is, I always have an interpretation for folks I hear speaking in tongues, the interpretation usually goes about like my other two comments above 🙂
Kinda waiting for Babs to come on and hear what he has to say…. 🙂
Many of the charismatic leaders are not sincere. I am tempted to put Chuck Smith into this category since he is largely responsible for main streaming the spiritual gifts into the evangelical world. I used to admire Calvary Chapel for trying to take a very balanced approach to things like “speaking in tongues” . However it is becoming more evident to me that Chuck Smith appears to have just created market share, created more profits while trying to maintain credibility within the larger evangelical world.
I’ll be on The God Discussion Show tomorrow night for those who want to listen in or call in with questions:
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1820
I agree with Paps’ number 4. They were referring to the service being done in the language of the people not Latin.
On the other hand, I can remember services hearing, (say it really fast) “she rode on honda, she rode on honda, from my shin to my knee, she rode on honda.” 😉
I realize the article has zip to do with my question. I marvel at how it is applicable today to Anglicans in a totally different sense.
Men would shout obscenities in Klingon for a minute, and another man would stand and shout, “Ye art a stench in the nostrils of thine forever amen, and thou shalt be stricken with boils until thouest repent of thine iniquities!”
Women would softly repeat Hoshizaki Adoni, (Japanese mixed with Hebrew) and another woman would stand and say, “Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, I cover thee in mine wings…”
Always in KJV language, because that is how Jesus spoke. So very “contrived” it seemed.
I don’t get it when the congregation breaks out into mass tongues, and half the church is reciting novel length prayers to the projector screen… there is just about nothing scriptural there…
I wish I could buy the Cessationists pitch. It is a speculative position though. I have to believe that tongues could be real, along with a whole list of other “gifts”.
Much the same as when this article was written, it is a repugnant thing to not be able to understand what multiple are blurting out in Japa-brew-klingon. I have a hard time believing that this is “worship”. I have a hard time believing it points to the Glory of God. No more that, than would people in England desire to sit and listen to the priest read the book of common prayer in Latin.
It’s very interesting to consider that Paul was speaking from his limited world view, that “gifts” might now be viewed as “inclinations” of individuals who were drawn to be “prophets” because of temperament. Compassionate temperaments seek to fulfil healing, encouragement, anylitical types are drawn to “discernment”.
What unfolds for me is the choice to do/use/express every gift with love as the basis of value & quality.
for me, those among us who speak in tongues are strange, but God is very strange by my standards aaand i have known very efficacious tongues speaking prayer warriors – God knows, i don’t … that said, making such a *required,* event in a service or even a gathering of Believers does not ring true to me
but for the above example, i am among the cessationistos regarding tongues and miracle healings – but not because such have ceased, but because the majority of Anglo Saxon Believers don’t function on that plain – our historic supernatural bent was witchcraft and tomtens and such, which things tend to foster arrogance and powerlust, not simple faith and wonder
Rueben said, “I wish I could buy the Cessationists pitch. It is a speculative position though. I have to believe that tongues could be real, along with a whole list of other “gifts”.” Yes, I agree.
One time my heart was breaking over some circumstances in my life. I was sound asleep but woke up to sound of me sort of “groaning” praying….my heart was being poured out to the Lord. I believe the Holy Spirit was truly praying through that burden in my life that was just too heavy for me, a burden that I did not have words for, and that I did not know how to pray about. So I am open to “tongues” as HE gives, and God forbid I would quench His precious Holy Spirit.
There has been a small thread of Pentecostalism through out the church age until the major outbreak that began at Azusa St. I have become increasingly uncovinced about much of what happens in Pentecostal circles over the past several years. However, I think the gifts are for today, but not all of them accompany the recipient all the time. Yet gifts like tongues, are not necessarily normative. With that I would caution some of you to not be so flippant about the gifts of the Spirit, but that’s just me.
1Cor 14:19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Andrew,
“Many of the charismatic leaders are not sincere. I am tempted to put Chuck Smith into this category since he is largely responsible for main streaming the spiritual gifts into the evangelical world.”
I think you are giving Chuck Smith a bit too much credit.
Many of the charismatic leaders are not sincere. I am tempted to put Chuck Smith into this category since he is largely responsible for main streaming the spiritual gifts into the evangelical world.”
Yeah, me too.
In my neck of the woods — the upper Midwest — Chuck Smith has zip influence on evangelicals. Well, maybe not zip. But damn close to zip.
In NC, we’ve never heard of Chuck Smith. Jimmy Swaagart was a much more infulencial charismatic around here. Jimmy Bakker too.
Ahhh, Jimmy Baker … I covered that trial for a news org. I learned a lot.
Speaking of the Jimmys’…..Anyone seen the film, “The Apostle?”
That film helped to remind me that God uses scoundrels. Oh, amazing grace.
Nonnie,
I saw that movie, with Robert Duvall. Great movie and a great actor!
“…God forbid I would quench His precious Holy Spirit…”
Will God forbid what we are intent on doing?
The Apostle is one of my favorites.
Fascinating how much we can judge the motivations of others….
I usually withhold judgment, as something else trumps it….if only I could remember what it was.
Who are you speaking about, Jtk?
“.. I would say its mostly people caught up in emotion…”
“…Now, while I think the rank-and-file are sincere….I think many of the Leaders of the Charismatic Movement are not…”
“Many of the charismatic leaders are not sincere….”
Definitely a higher concentration of others “KNOWING” what motivates others in today’s thread….