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77 Responses

  1. Mike E. says:

    I wouldn’t describe myself as a mystic, but a mystic-wannabe. That is, if the article is correct and a mystic is someone who has a deep intimacy with the love of God, I want that. Alas, a wannabe only. 🤷‍♂️

  2. Em says:

    Intimacy with the love of God?
    For me, i have to pray for increased Faith… I try to look for evidence of God at work, but Faith doesn’t come easy for some of us…. As i drive myself e 15 mikes out of this river canyon, i sing, kinda loud, “This is My Father’s World. .” all nature sings and round me rings the music of the spheres. ……. ” not sure my singing is the music of the spheres, though… Hope heaven isn’t covering their ears. … LOL
    Who said, ” Lord I believe. Help my unbelief! ” ? ? ?

  3. The CCP rewrite of The Bible is disturbing. It’s anti-christ.

  4. Em says:

    interesting observation, TNV
    i have felt for some time now that the planet is being groomed for THE anti-christ…. UFOs, life on other planets, the perfect all inclusive religion…. years or decades? i don’t know, but things are moving on in that direction… or so it seems to me

  5. Mike E. says:

    Em..”but Faith doesn’t come easy for some of us”–very true, sister. I am quite sure heaven rejoices with your singing. 🙂

  6. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Just for clarification – and I promise I am not trying to start something – but what does one mean when they say ”but Faith doesn’t come easy for some of us”?
    The way I read the Bible is that faith is given to us by God, as a gift. I don’t think any of us would say that God gives anything but complete and perfect gifts…including faith.

    So I am assuming that you are not talking of that gifted faith but something else – can you help me?

  7. Michael says:


    Faith isn’t mechanical…”do this and get this”.
    Faith is affected by a lot of things…but nothing more than abusive and hypocritical leadership.

  8. josh hamrick says:

    “God gives anything but complete and perfect gifts…including faith.”

    I definitely disagree with that one. Faith must be one of those things that God only gives a little at a time leading up to perfection in the afterlife. My faith is far rom perfect. The object of my faith – the Author and Finisher of my faith – is perfect, but that is all.

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – thanks for your reply – I don’t think I said we do anything – I did say faith is a gift given.

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – thanks – good to see you here.
    I was gone 8 months and came back last month – we are like gnats to a light bulb. 🙂

  11. josh hamrick says:

    🙂 Always good to see you MLD.

  12. josh hamrick says:

    “we are like gnats to a light bulb.”

    Or flies to Pence, so to speak 🙂

  13. Babylon's Dread says:

    Church closures are not persecution. They do violate the constitution. I would likely not assert this but every political leader called for mitigation by executive ordered closures but they all added the caveat that they would respect the constitutionally protected right of assembly by protestors. So I will exercise my right NO matter what level this pandemic reaches. I will remain open for those who want to be president worshipping. I will not close again.

  14. Em says:

    becoming as a little child, reading and believing the Bible… perhaps, then Faith, yes it is a gift, does come easy… So?
    perhaps, it isn’t the Faith, but the willing mind reading and accepting – internalizing – what the Scriptures tell us… TRUST? perhaps
    for some of us it takes time and some introspection and observation to accept God’s Truth
    “Growing in the nurture and admonition of the Lord”
    now i have had overwhelming life experiences where God has held me up when He knew i couldn’t handle it – thankfully not many – but most of the time it has been a growing experience

  15. Duane Arnold says:


    “I will remain open for those who want to be president worshipping.”

    I do hope that this was auto-correct and not a Freudian slip…😁

  16. Babylon's Dread says:

    Ha “present” — that’s kinda funny and not…

  17. bob1 says:

    In case you missed it…

    Andrew Sullivan: “I know it’s tempting fate to mention the idea, foolish to entertain it, mad to expect it, but the possibility of a landslide is now real. There are about ten points between the two candidates with three weeks to go, and the momentum is overwhelmingly with the challenger. Among the likeliest scenarios in 538’s poll of polls is now a Biden Electoral College victory of over 400. Texas is in play… A Biden win would be a reprieve for the country; a Biden landslide would be an American miracle.”

    “Unlike anything else, it would cauterize the wound of Trump, preventing further infection. It would say to posterity: we made this hideous mistake, for understandable reasons, but after four years, we saw what we did and decisively changed course. It would turn the Trump era of nihilism, tribalism and cruelty into a cautionary tale of extremism, illiberalism and, above all, failure… A landslide loss for Trump would mitigate, if not remove, the deep damage he has done.”

  18. Babylon's Dread says:

    I like Andrew Sullivan and enjoyed the humor

  19. bob1 says:

    It isn’t humor. But if that’s what you need to believe to get through…

    Also, he’s a conservative, right?

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bob 1 – and if Trump wins will that be an indicator to you that America recognizes the bankruptcy of the Left?
    Will you walk away saying “thus says the will of the people” and not grumble?

  21. bob1 says:

    Moot point — Trump won’t win.

  22. Xenia says:

    Whoever wins, I hope it is by a landslide. It won’t completely stop the conspiracy theories, but it might slow them down. I don’t have much confidence in the accuracy of the election count but I will go along with whoever God puts in the office.

    All to say, if Biden wins, I will do my best to be a good sport. I will certainly pray for his health because the thought of Harris being the president is more than I can bear.

    If Trump wins, expect more riots, everywhere, because Biden’s supporters will suspect foul play. If Biden wins, most of my conservative friends (all of them, actually) will not accept that he won by honest means. We already dropped our ballots in a box down by city hall. It not really feel like we voted.

    So no one’s going to be happy, but I will insist on being happy because that’s how I live my life in Christ.

  23. Xenia says:

    “It not really feel”…. Good grief.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well like I said a couple of days ago, it does not matter a bit who wins. We may feel better “our guy” won but you look at the issues at hand 50 + yrs ago and the 10 administrations since – and the same issues are at hand.

  25. Jean says:

    “If Trump wins, expect more riots, everywhere, because Biden’s supporters will suspect foul play.”

    I would predict it this way: If Trump wins, expect more riots, everywhere, because (i) Trump’s entire agenda is to divide the nation, to demonize, delegitimize and de-humanize his opponents, and (ii) he gives encouragement to militias, white supremacists, and conspiracy theorists.

    In addition, American life expectancy will continue to go down, against first world trends, because he is against pretty much every pro-life issue, except the pro fetus issue of abortion.

    I believe Harris is a very intelligent, articulate woman, who would make a fine, dignified president, should she be nominated after a first Biden term. Wouldn’t it be nice to see dignity restored in the Oval Office?

  26. Em says:

    In the good old days (Washington now votes by mail) you went to your precinct, showed your I.D., confirmed you were a registered voter, got your name checked off, handed a ballot, voted incognito and placed the ballot in a locked box. The box was opened that night, counted ballots with all parties watching = very little chance to rig the count
    An inconvenience? Yes, but a worthwhile one…. IMV

    God must have been involved as He is not the author of confusion and, today? Boy are we confused. 🙆

  27. Em says:

    Our neighbors have a yard sign listing that they support
    Black lives matter
    Human rights are women’s rights
    There’s no such thing as an illegal alien
    Four other assertions, I’ve forgotten
    Like most here, they are well meaning. … But
    To every assertion on their sign there is a “yes, but…”

  28. Babylon's Dread says:

    Sullivan was too conservative for the illiberal left NYT and is too liberal for the Trumpists. So he is a man without a home and has chosen between devil and deep blue sea.

  29. Em says:

    Between the fevil and the deep blue sea.. the beach?

  30. Em says:

    fevil? Uggghhh DEVIL. stupid teeeeny keypad

  31. bob1 says:


    I agree.

    The latest statistics on murders committed by US Domestic terrorists:

    74% of murders came from extremist groups on the right.
    3% came from extremist groups on the left
    24% came from Muslim extremists

  32. bob1 says:

    No matter where we stand politically, we need to pray for a peaceful transition of power…

  33. I’m really struggling to see a peaceful transition of power.

    This may not be well recieved but I’m moving more in the direction that COVID has produced an overall net calming effect on political tensions. The level of tension would have been higher without the pandemic. The President’s illness imo had the same calming effect, regardless of party.

    In late 2019 (post Epstein death) my bet was a large number of indictments would be handed down late Summer 2020. My estimation was the targets would be related to counter-intelegence, and major Democratic supporters. If there was in fact any such plan as this, COVID scrapped it.

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I hope we have a smoother transition than the past one – the outgoing President having his FBI spying on the incoming Prez.

  35. Babylon's Dread says:


    Correct, the powers and principalities have never accepted Trump as POTUS.

    As for a peaceful transfer of power the Democrat cities don’t have a peaceful existence of power right now. Why would we expect them to be pacified by an election. Yes, Kamala will pacify them some, her transition into replacing the raptist/racist she claims she’s running with will be fascinating.

    Pot Stir Dread

  36. Duane Arnold says:

    Hopefully we at least will not have the number of indictments and convictions that came out of the last transition…

  37. Jean says:


    I believe the number was 8+. In my opinion, the FBI was fully justified.

  38. Em says:

    IF Trump prevails – if – I’d expect some very turbulent times
    On the other and IF Biden wins, making Harris President, i expect some very turbulent times – especially for those who stand as Christ directs. She does not tolerate the practice of our Faith, no matter how much she smiles and looks folksy now

  39. Em says:

    Jean, the Lute, puzzles me at times… as in his 3:11 above…..
    Watch Schiff, Pelosi, the little no neck whose name escapes me, Schumer…. these are treacherous people from where i sit. ? ? ?

    Am i naive to trust Jordan, Cruz… ? ? ?

  40. Jean says:

    “For me, living and leading with my faith means heeding the lesson of the Good Samaritan, a story which, at its core, is about who we choose to see as our neighbor.

    “It teaches us that my neighbor is not just someone who lives down the block or in my same ZIP code. We are all each other’s neighbors, and we are called to look out for one another.”

    – Kamala Harris

  41. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Heels up” Harris obviously does not consider 1 million unborn to be her neighbor – which is her right – but let’s quit with the Bible references.

  42. Em says:

    Jean, i suspect you are a pretty good attorney, so i must ask you if you really believe Kamala Harris believes your 3:22 quote?
    I think she says whatever greases the wheels – it’s politics speaking…. but then i am old… maybe i have seen too many liars

  43. Jean says:


    What I think you are exemplifying, which is not uncommon or limited to you on this thread, is the proficiency at seeing the speck in your sister’s eye while blind to the log in your own eye.

    I will simply say to you and your cohort on this thread that God have 10 words to Moses, not just one. And there is not a person on this thread that not only violates those 10 words daily, but does so in one or more ways without regret.

    So, if you or someone else wants to judge Senator Harris for her sin, the measure you use will be measured for you.

    When Jesus explicated the 5th commandment, “You shall not murder,” He said “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.” You and others here are welcome to make your own application.

    This little summary that Jesus made, “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

    Is the way that you and others here speak of Biden and Harris or the Obama administration the way you wish others would speak of you?

    “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.” You or others here who judge Harris’ faith, are you and others ready to accept that judgment for yourself?

    Christians are supposed to be in but not of the world, but when you and others hurl insults, unsubstantiated charges, spiritual judgments, etc. at a political opponent, you betray the Christian witness and place your own position with God in peril.

  44. Bride of Christ says:

    I suppose Kampala Harris considers people who have been born already , people who have taken their first breath, not attached to an umbilical cord, to be her neighbors. That is not her own, unique, take on this thorny question. The most brilliant legal minds in our nation have come to this same conclusion. Here is a question for Bible scholars who know mire than I do. I have heard that the scriptures tell us the soul enters the human body with the first breath taken at birth. Is this scriptural? I have also heard that infants were not counted in Bible times in any census counts until they were 1 years old. One more, I have heard that in the Old Testament there are scriptures that tell us a woman caught in adultery is sent to the religious leaders who give her a mixture of herbs that cause her to abort the baby who was conceived by adultery ( and renders her sterile, as well) and that is confined by God. These are confusing scriptures to me ad a Christian.

  45. Em says:

    Interesting take, Jean. I will ponder my sins , God convicting me to confess them as i go …. 😏

    BTW… Ya think Kamala does that? … sigh …. guess you do

  46. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, watch out for the previous poster (whose name I have been forbidden to mention) who hurls insult after insult against Trump – who continually make unsubstantiated claims, and daily gives lessons in ‘hate they neighbor’ – 10 fold to what anyone else does.

    His worst offense is that he has become the Franklin Graham of woke, liberal christian politics.

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    btw, I think Harris believes her Honest Abe story much more than she believes the Good Sam story.

  48. Em says:

    B of C, i have also heard that the Jew considers that first breath is when the newborn becomes a living soul…
    One thing to keep in mind is that Old Testament models the Law, while the New Testament displays/teaches God’s love and grace… A way out, to coin a programmer ‘s term
    At least that is the way I’ve been taught……

  49. Bride of Christ says:

    The verse is Numbers 5 :21 that bothers me. It seems to say the priests give her a option that causes her to miscarry her unborn child if it us a product bit adultery.

  50. Em says:

    MLD, i have known people who make up their own truth to suit their purposes and sometimes they do convince themselves that it is true

  51. Jean says:

    “BTW… Ya think Kamala does that? … sigh …. guess you do”

    There you go again. Why do ask? Does Christ ask us to rank each other or compare the godliness of each other?

  52. Jean says:

    A Lutheran would say that dispenationalists make up their own truth. And a sacramentarian would say that Lutherans make up their own truth.

  53. Bride of Christ says:

    If this verse is accurate , it seems to show Old Testament religious priests acting like China did during their ‘ One Child Policy’ years. China would kidnap women and for e them to have abortions against their wills. The woman in this Numbers verse is suspected of adultery, and they force her to take this potion that causes her to miscarry. It seems to say that if the husband wants the abortion, then it is okay. I know Old Testament is the “old covenant” but Jesus doesn’t mention abortion in the New Testament, so all we have is Old Testament passages.

  54. Em says:

    BofC, the whole of the 5th chapter is a ponder… We are learning how God views an unfaithful wife.. . Do we apply that to (no slam intended here) to us, the Bride of Christ?
    If so, how do we display unfaithful behavior? Messing with other religions, sins (which we can/should confess and be forgiven), witchcrafts and seances and…?
    more to ponder. ..
    God keep

  55. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bride, help me out. I looked up the passage on my phone in the ESV. I may be missing it but I don’t see the man approving an abortion nor do I see an abortion / miscarriage happening.
    I do see the language of wombs swelling and thighs falling away – but who knows what that means?

  56. Em says:

    Jean, is discernment a part of the Christian life? Wise as serpent, BUT harmless as doves
    Dispensationalism has logic, it is the interpretation i choose, but the day will come when we’ll all know for certain… If I’ve been incorrect i can live with it
    Let God be true and every man…..

  57. Jean says:

    “Jean, is discernment a part of the Christian life?”

    Depends on the topic,

    Regarding Scripture, for any major Christian doctrine, there are a diversity of beliefs. Either one is correct and all the others false, or all are false.

  58. Xenia says:

    Jean’s little sermon would have been more convincing if we hadn’t read what he said to MLD the other day.

  59. Em says:

    All are false is not logical, Jean…. 🙆
    All our teachers can’t have strayed from or embroidered the truth, can they?
    John 3:16 and surrounding verses are as a now, deceased teacher used to say, where the rubber meets the road….
    Our biggest enemy is pride (been studying aspects of humility) . I feel it gets between me and growing in Christ way more than it should
    I’d like to think that part of our time in Eternity will be spent in school, but there’s that “knowing as we are known [now?]”

  60. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia, Jean and I fight like Jr High girls on and off the blog.
    Don’t judge his comments by what he says to me.

    Now I think he’s a horse’s ads, but I’ve earned that right 🙂

  61. Em says:

    Horses don’t have ads, MLD. 😁
    AND their rear ends are really kind of pretty…. Now a steer….

  62. Bride of Christ says:

    MLD: ” Several commentaries on the Bible maintain that the ordeal is to be applied in case the woman has become pregnant… Some interpretations describe the bitter potion as an abortifacuient which induces a purposeful abortion if the woman is pregnant with a child the husband alleges us another man’s child.” Brewer, Julius A. October 1913. The ordeal in Numbers Chapter 5″ The American Journal of Semetic Languages and Literature.

  63. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bride – commentaries are opinions. The text can stand on it’s own.

  64. Jean says:

    Bride of Christ,

    Note the Vulgate translation, which was the Bible of the Western Church for over a thousand years:

    “22 si rixati fuerint viri et percusserit quis mulierem praegnantem et abortivum quidem fecerit sed ipsa vixerit subiacebit damno quantum expetierit maritus mulieris et arbitri iudicarint

    If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.

    23 sin autem mors eius fuerit subsecuta reddet animam pro anima

    But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life,”

    According to the Vulgate, the “mishap” is whether or not the woman dies; in either case there is a miscarriage. if the woman doesn’t die, there is a fine, but not a “life for a life,” because the fetus was not considered a life while in the womb.

    The LXX translation, which is still used by millions of Christians today translates into English as follows:

    “22 And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman’s husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. 23 But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life,”

    According to the LXX, the “mishap” is the death of the fetus, but it dies in both cases. The difference is that in the first case the fetus is not perfectly formed (i.e., it is early term), whereas in the second case the fetus is perfectly formed (i.e., it is late term). In the case of an early term miscarriage, the penalty is a fine, but not “a life for a life,” because the early term fetus was not considered a life.

  65. Bride of Christ says:

    MLD: I found a translation for “thigh will fall away”. According to Jewish language scholars ” thigh” meant embryo as the embryo in biblical tines was considered to be a part if the woman’s body. So certainly the ” thigh falling away” after the belly swells , after the bitter potion is consumed, is referring to an induced miscarriage .

  66. Bride of Christ says:

    Jean, from what I understand, evangelicals never even opposed abortion until the 1980s. I have found several examples of prominent evangelicals from The time of Billy Graham’s era that felt the Bible was completely neutral in the subject of abortion. I’ve been married over 4O years and during that time never had an unexpected pregnancy, so I have never had to personally grapple with this issue. I am suspicious as to why this has became such an important issue to Protestant believers so recently, when for thousands of years it was of no concern to them.

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bride, are you trying to make the case that the Bible favors abortion?
    Shouldn’t we find some OT procedures for the proper methods of abortions – heck we have procedures on how to replanted a house if leprosy is found.

  68. Martin Luther's Disciple says:


  69. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It’s odd that the translations used to imply that early term abortion is OK and that human life does not begin at conception – the Vulgate and the XXL are the scriptures for the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox – which I do not think either condones abortion under any circumstances.

  70. Xenia says:

    Bride, actually, it’s been the Catholics who have done much of the heavy lifting in anti-abortion work. They own big hospitals that will not do abortions, for example. They are often the one with signs in front of Planned Parenthood. Christians have always been opposed to abortion from the earliest times. It became a major issue in the 70’s – 80’s because of Roe vs Wade.

  71. Em says:

    I think that women over the years assumed that child bearing was their responsibility, but then along came “the pill.” Now women could swallow a potion that kept the fetilized egg from attaching to the uterus wall and the embryo from forming in the first place. Perhaps, many decided that pregnancy, unwanted, unplanned made them victims. It is easy to rationalize when one feels sorry for oneself…. “Safe sex?” ugghhh
    Is abortion right, not the spontaneous and unplanned ones, but a medical procedure that goes into the uterus and removes what is forming? To save a mommy, perhaps, but I think that God frowns… He forgives, if asked in a confession of wrong doing, but i seriously doubt that He sanctions abortion for convenience…
    That said – He will forgive, remember that fact. God forgives….

  72. Duane Arnold says:

    “Christians have always been opposed to abortion from the earliest times.”

    It is way more nuanced than this, mainly owing to where the particular writer stood on Aristotle’s idea on “ensoulment”, i.e. at what point the fetus became truly human by receiving a soul. Then, as now, there were a variety of opinions even among the Church Fathers…

  73. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Many Christians over the centuries have believed nutty things that are not supported by scriptures.
    Many of those have even put Aristotelian reasoning above scriptures.

    But the point of comments / questions above were to use scriptures that say nothing about abortion to legitimize abortion from the Bible. (Jean’s fighting passage and BoC’s adultery passage)

  74. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    If I use scripture to see pre born personhood, it is not hard.
    Note in these 2 passages it speaks to the person being known pre birth and the person being created / formed pre birth.

    In neither case we you see that ‘something’ was known or ‘something’ was created / formed that later became that person somewhere along in the process and at some later point gained personhood and value.

    Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
    I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
    Psalm 139:13-14 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
    14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.

  75. Duane Arnold says:


    I’m not arguing either way on this matter. When, however, a blanket assertion is made I think a corrective statement is in order. We’re all entitled to our own opinions. We’re not entitled to our own facts…

  76. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, I love a man who can quote Mike Pence off the top of his head.

  77. Duane Arnold says:

    Yes, as you may remember, I have experience with the person in question…

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