The hope we have in Christ is all based on the fact of his resurrection.
May our hope in Him grow as we celebrate his victory over death and the grave.
I was going to take my elderly mom to my brother’s church for Easter.
She wasn’t up to it. She made me promise that I would go.
I can’t do it.
No space in the small lot.
Plus I’m having asthma issues.
That affirmed my decision to drive past the satellite church and its Walmart sized parking lot.
Drove some, stopped at a park, went looking through FB and YouTube for a virtual service.
I can’t do it. Too many bad memories.
So I yelled at God. And now I shall enjoy His creation, do something related to the job search, get groceries, ride a bike at the gym and hopefully stay alive, not curse God nor die.
This was my church for years.
So – probably not the way she intended it- I did honor Mom’s wishes for me to go to church.
Happy Easter. I hope He is risen.
I’ve spent the morning trying to get enough back pain relief to take a shower…it’s my beloved godson’s 21st birthday and I’m expected at the celebration.
If I can’t get there he will bring me dinner anyway because that’s who he is.
I’ll get there, damn it…
I got the results back on the CT scan of my back and it shows pain will be my companion for the duration.
My mom is on the couch, lost in dementia and I suspect her cat has hidden and died over night.
The future looks short and miserable…but He is risen.
Looking past the immediate future, I see new heavens and a new earth where the cats don’t die, the mind is clear, and the pain is gone…because He is risen.
Today I will celebrate Trey and celebrate Jesus …because someday all will be well.
May He give you all reason to celebrate today…because He is risen, indeed.
I live with back pain myself – spinal stenosis – and without the injections and meds it would mean me a mean S.O.B. It did make me a mean S.O.B.
I am very sorry about your mom, and her cat, and your back. I would say I will pray for you, but that sounds like platitudes just typing it on my screen, and you need far, far better than that – the kind of thing only a powerful God can provide.
For those of us who don’t believe, that sounds absurd.
For those like me who waver, who want to believe despite what we see and experience, it sounds like hope and absurdity in the face of cold, cold reality. And yet it promises everything we want and got robbed of on this earth, in the only reality we know.
Thank you for the kind words.
While I was trying to get ready to go see Trey he was attacked by a dog whilst skateboarding…he’ll be fine, but deserves better on his birthday.
If my faith had anything to do with circumstances and present reality, I’d have no faith at all.
All my eggs are in the resurrection basket…
The difficulty is that I still have some of that “bible promises”theology stuck in me…that stuff they told us about how life would be better if we just believed.
Suffering is always a surprise and we ask God to fix it…and sometimes it gets fixed and sometimes it doesn’t.
I still believe…because I know that this isn’t how it’s supposed to be…I know that someday it will be what He intended.
I pray that God blesses you before then…that you get a glimpse of the joy that is your inheritance.
Michael, thank YOU for the kind words and encouragement.
Great news about her cat!
Sorry that happened to Trey.
In my tradition we were told if we believed in Jesus and obeyed His Word, great things would happen, we would prosper and the devil would run.
In reality, all kinds of things happen, we often struggle to get by and the devil runs alright, he runs amok while the good Christians yell at us from the stands for letting him do it…
Michael
“ The difficulty is that I still have some of that “bible promises”theology stuck in me…that stuff they told us about how life would be better if we just believed.”
Yeah, I get tired of that sermon too. I see just the opposite in the scriptures. “In this world you will have tribulation…”
“ And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.”
Sounds like the gospel mixed with the American dream
I am in Southern California today visiting my mother in law. My back pain, like yours is debilitating. So you and I are connected by our mutual faith and severe back pain. But I like dogs over cats! 🙂
From dust I was assembled and to dust I’ll return.
But I believe that one day Jesus of Nazareth will remake me so that I live again with death no longer coded into my double helix (DNA).
I see several words in this thread with which I can relate. Stenosis (mine is in my neck), back pain, mutual faith, dogs, and this: “If my faith had anything to do with circumstances and present reality, I’d have no faith at all.
All my eggs are in the resurrection basket…”
CK
Your comment reminds me of a line in the Billy Joel song “Piano Man”: “they’re all sharing a drink that’s called loneliness but it’s better than drinking alone”
Easter was tough for me. My first since leaving ministry. My first without a wife in 28 years. One of my two kids was with me, at least. The other had an overnight shift at the hospital. I went to my sisters church to hear her sing, and she’s amazing…but everything else was just salt in a wound.
One thing that helps me is to remember that, although many of us have family traditions revolving around holidays like Easter, the actual feast or holy day we celebrate as Easter is solely about what God in Christ did for the children of Adam. He fulfilled all righteousness and declared “It is finished” without your help or mine, and he took away the sins of the world despite the world’s rejection of his work!
However we’re hurting, whether physically or spiritually, Christ’s death and resurrection holds the answer and provides our only eternal hope. Therefore, we can bring all our hurts, sins and petitions, to our Lord on Easter morning and every following Sunday morning when and where his mercy and grace are freely and abundantly offered to all of us.
Michael
I am in So Cal. I went to an Anglican men’s group last night, with my pal Bob Bennett. Nice folks. After a short 30 min liturgy (which I loved), 15 guys and the bishop had an open discussion while drinking adult beverages and smoking cigars. It was very enjoyable
Anglicanism is both Protestant and catholic…… the center of Anglican theology is the Incarnation and Eucharist, while for Protestants it’s the Scriptures and sermon.
Anglicans also live on a broad spectrum…there are evangelical Anglicans, Reformed Anglicans, and Anglo Catholics….
Historically, it is considered a Protestant sect, but with a lot of nuance…and adult beverages…
I loved the liturgy—I was raised Lutheran where we recited a liturgy—I even remembered the Apostles Creed from my teenaged years and was able to recite it.
I also appreciated he lack of “uptightness” do smoking cigars and consuming adult beverages. Had the nicest glass of French whiskey—and no guilt!
Let me preface by saying I appreciate Jean. I really do. We butted heads for years, but he proved to be a good guy with thoughtfulness and compassion. I appreciate what he said above…but…
That doesn’t help me at all. I almost didn’t survive 2022. Like scary close to not finishing the year. Thanks god, sometime in January the will to live returned, but the pain is still immense.
I used to think it sounded great to tell people we have a god is suffering right there with you. It sounds stupid on the other side. Nobody wants to feel like this ever. If you are god and you can’t alleviate my suffering, at least save yourself. It all sounds like a bunch of stuff we tell ourselves to be OK with life sucking, and to kick the can down the road and only worry about happiness in the afterlife. It all looks so weird to me right now.
I hear you and it’s something I struggle with personally and as a pastor.
As I have said here many times of late, all my eggs are in the eschatological basket, because I don’t see much hope here.
I know that God occasionally intervenes, but I don’t see it often enough to bank on it.
The Scriptures seem to agree with my assessment.
I do not think it stupid, however…I know that my God agrees that things are broken and horribly painful and difficult and demonstrated His unity with those who suffer…and somehow my suffering is part of the plan to end all suffering one day.
If I can play even a tiny part in the re-creation of heaven and earth to what it was meant to be…there is no higher calling.
Things ARE broken and painful – that is indisputable. I can’t for the life of me understand why they have to be that way. We have a good, loving, all-powerful god and he wants us (and himself apparently) to feel this kind of pain all the time.
And “he’s making things right”, which means he lost control at some point and is working to get it back.
There is a lot of mystery here…and for me the only thing that illuminates it is faith.
I do not believe that God wants us to be in this sort of pain and brokenness…but He also created us with the ability to break what He made…and the way back home is hard.
I don’t think He lost control either…I think He respected our choices…
“It all sounds like a bunch of stuff we tell ourselves to be OK with life sucking, and to kick the can down the road and only worry about happiness in the afterlife.”
I hope I wasn’t conveying this thought, but if I came across this way, then I apologize.
My perspective is not that life sucking is OK, but that life sucking is my expectation as a follower of Jesus, that is, it is the norm for a Christian not the exception.
I will give you a short example from a text I am currently teaching:
“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter through it. How narrow is the gate, and how difficult is the way that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Mt. 7:13-14 EHV)
Note that Jesus says the way is “difficult” (ESV, “hard”; GW, “full of trouble”). Jesus’ goal for Christians is future oriented; it is eternal life through the narrow gate at the end of our difficult pilgrimate here in this broken world.
Most people don’t want to take the narrow path at all, and many who do begin there, leave the narrow path later, as the Parable of the Sower teaches. Trouble, persecution, worries of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth are among the reasons that people leave the narrow path.
I say this because with the knowledge of God’s Word, I am able to process and understand why my life so often sucks. I expect my life to be difficult; I place my hope in the life to come. My surprizes come from the unexpected blessings that God sometimes provides me, which I do not deserve, and the good that I sometimes experience here and now. To me, any good I receive is what surprizes me, not when I receive the bad.
I am glad the will to live has returned to you and I pray that God would heal your pain. Don’t give up! Easter proves that a better life is in store for all of Christ’s lambs. He is risen!
Do you think Adam and Eve really understood the consequences of that choice? That for at least thousands of years people were going to be brutalized, die miserable, and suffer eternal torture because of their choice?
I do not know the depth of their understanding…but I know that humans do things everyday and will do things today that cause suffering and death to other humans, sometimes thousands of humans at a time.
Thanks Jean – and my responses to you aren’t personal at all. Your words are kind. I get it.
That said, ” life sucking is my expectation as a follower of Jesus, that is, it is the norm for a Christian not the exception.”
I don’t think I want that anymore. Maybe another system can provide some earthly joy, and maybe…maybe, the one life that we are guaranteed doesn’t have to suck.
I don’t want anybody to feel like I feel, so I won’t take the discussion any further. You are all very kind, loving people. I thank you for taking me in.
“I don’t think I want that anymore. Maybe another system can provide some earthly joy, and maybe…maybe, the one life that we are guaranteed doesn’t have to suck.”
You can pick any system you want…but life will still suck because we do.
Christianity is the only “system” that speaks to the truth about both God and humans…and joy can only take hold in truth.
I’m glad you’re here…and I think discussing these things are healthy and necessary…
I don’t suck. I’m a good dude. I tried my damnedest to raise my kids the best way I possibly could. If nothing else the love I have shown them means that I can’t possibly suck as a person.
“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.”
Romans 4:1-2 ESV
Yeah, in that sense, I don’t expect to go to heaven because I’m such a good dude, but it doesn’t erase the fact that I am a really good dude.
And yes, I could post an entire bible study to show that I am in fact garbage. I’m just not buying that interpretation any longer. I can’t afford to see myself that way, and I’m not going to believe that God sees me that way either.
I’m choosing to believe in the god who runs out to celebrate the prodigal son. Radical acceptance.
We are good in that God created us in His own image and conferred upon us the ability to do good things, which many times we do.
In other ways we are bad when we choose to do bad instead, and yes, even the best of us fall woefully short of the unmitigated holiness of God.
When we reflect upon just our own kind, we can and do genuinely say that some people are “good” people while saying others are “bad” people. Our assessments are many times subjective and biased, but they do also often contain palpable truths and sincerities.
God does not force us to come to Him, but when we do, yes, there is radical acceptance, whether good or bad.
Josh, I do honestly think you are a good dude and believe that God fully accepts you as His child.
“Life is hard but God is good”…so it’s said. All I really know is that life is hard. The “God is good” part still remains to be seen. For me at least. Every accomplishment I’ve ever made (and there aren’t that many) has taken a lot of sweat and tears.
I think God is good because I think it is His Spirit testifying to me that this isn’t the way it was meant to be…and suffered with us so we can someday reign with Him.
I will run everything from Crater Lake to south 25 miles… 🙂
“I’m choosing to believe in the god who runs out to celebrate the prodigal son. Radical acceptance.”
Note what the prodigal son says to his father upon his return:
“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ ” (Luke 15:21 ESV)
It looks as though the son did not think of himself as a good guy.
But, the good news is that on Good Friday, Jesus Christ took our sins to the cross and made atonement for them. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
I think a Christian can and rightfully should say of himself, “I am blessed,” “I am valued,” “I am a saint,” not because of whom I am as a member of the human race, but because of who God has made me in Christ.
Jean
Respectfully, what you said above sounds like the secret to a “happy” Christian life is just mental We should have a positive mental attitude. I guess that’s ok for some and it works. But what do you do when your experience doesn’t match up with your theology or your profession. Life has always been a struggle. As a pastor, I lacked the skills and abilities of my contemporaries. It was a struggle for about 27 years. It wasn’t fun. But i showed up for work every sunday. Felt it was my job to do the best i could with what i had.
The Christian life isn’t always what what it’s purported or proclaimed to be from the pulpit. But I am saved and being transformed. God owes me nothing more than that—IMO.
“Respectfully, what you said above sounds like the secret to a “happy” Christian life is just mental We should have a positive mental attitude.”
The first thing I would say is that Christianity does not deal in secrets.
The second thing is that “happiness” is by definition a mental state. I think the difference between Christians and unbelievers is, What is the source of one’s happiness? or What makes one happy?
In the 3rd Article of the Apostle’s Creed, it invites us to confess, “I believe in … the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.”
Is not the promise of the resurrection of the body, free of pain, disease, sin, etc. and of life with God in the age to come, free of death, the devil, pain, sorrow tears, etc. not ample reason to make one happy? What esle compares?
I don’t really like the word “happy,” because it is IMO a poor translation of the word that is also translated “blessed,” but I use it in the conversation. There are other words that also are apropos, such as joy, peace, comfort, contentment.
In other words, despite the sin and suffering that a Christian may observe or experience around him, he can face today and tomorrow with joy, peace and contentment (happiness if you’d like), assurred that this temporal life is not all there is nor his final destination. That hope allows a Christian to live for and give to others generously, knowing that when he is all used up here on this veil of tears, a better life awaits him.
Jean
God bless you friend. But your response is why I find it difficult to attend church. People at times are not happy or blessed, as you say. I, and others, don’t always feel “blessed” or “happy” but they press on regardless because of a commitment they made to Christ. In so many churches, and among fellow believers, it’s almost expected that other believers be happy. To not feel that way seems almost a sin
So many worship service feel like a rah-rah thing to get folks “whipped up”. Some times as a Christian, i want to sing the blues—but people would be concerned if I did.
I often times feel I can’t be honest with my feelings
That’s why I appreciate Josh’s openness. I applaud him for being authentic. With him, I will weep as scriptures say and not try to preach to him or make him feel guilt for his honest, or spout out a litany of scripture (as so many do).
Some times life just feels like sh%t. He’ll work thru it.
These discussions become difficult when we go from general theological principles to someone’s actual life experience. I do not want anyone telling me how I should feel, and do not want to give anyone the impression that I am telling them how they should feel. The fact is: we feel! We all feel.
Feeling is a lot like faith or love or hate. Someone can tell me what I should believe, or who I should or should not love, or who I should or should not hate, but I believe that those feelings are not something I can be coerced to have or even be convinced to have. I just have those feelings.
Having a feeling does not make the feeling right. I am not the arbitar of what is right or wrong. Personally, I think that many of the problems I have had in life and in my relationships have come from defective feelings. I have hurt people and felt good about it. I have hurt people and felt I was the victim. I have been hurt and misinterpreted the action or statement of another person. I have been an ass on this page and have incurred an appropriate punishment for that.
All this is to say that feelings are incredibly deceiving. Feelings in relation to others generally move towards either being in some sense a victim or winning a victory of sorts. This is a defense mechanism protecting us from admitting to ourselves that we were in the wrong.
Faith in Christ allows us to take off the mask and confess to him who we really are. Maybe in a particualr case you are the perpetrator, or maybe you are the victim. Maybe you are in the wrong or maybe you are inocent. Whatever it is, whatever our burden, Jesus bids us to come to him with our burdens.
I don’t think this is psychology. If it is, then the Christian faith is a bunch of hoey. If it’s not psychology, then Jesus actually is the one who became a curse for us, to redeem us from the curse.
I have not read much of this thread so my comments are not pointed into the conversations.
The resurrection accounts are phenomenal in regard to offering us a way forward theologically and sacramentally. My comments will cling simply to Luke. The tightly organized Emmaus narrative gives us a risen and unrecognized Savior, walking and detailing the Gospel story. His self-revelation in the breaking of bread is consequential.
1) Solidifies that Christ cannot be known merely by history but must be known by revelation
2) Passover is forever redefined and now has a new cycle of time, a ‘new exodus’ focus, and a new covenantal function.
3) The document seems to anticipate or perhaps reflect the dawning of docetic accretions. Messiah vindicating his humanity is decisive. Eating fish and claiming flesh and bone.
4) The phrase itself “breaking bread” becomes shorthand for eucharist. Believers have a covenant meal that will be ensconced by the subsequent Luka writing.
I really like points 1-4 Alan. I might go further on point 2 and add that the the focus is not only on a new exodus but a redemption from slavery, of which the OT event was a type. But overall your points are excellent.
A blessed Easter to all…
To you as well, Michael!
The hope we have in Christ is all based on the fact of his resurrection.
May our hope in Him grow as we celebrate his victory over death and the grave.
I was going to take my elderly mom to my brother’s church for Easter.
She wasn’t up to it. She made me promise that I would go.
I can’t do it.
No space in the small lot.
Plus I’m having asthma issues.
That affirmed my decision to drive past the satellite church and its Walmart sized parking lot.
Drove some, stopped at a park, went looking through FB and YouTube for a virtual service.
I can’t do it. Too many bad memories.
So I yelled at God. And now I shall enjoy His creation, do something related to the job search, get groceries, ride a bike at the gym and hopefully stay alive, not curse God nor die.
This was my church for years.
So – probably not the way she intended it- I did honor Mom’s wishes for me to go to church.
Happy Easter. I hope He is risen.
BrianD,
He is…and you will be too.
I’ve spent the morning trying to get enough back pain relief to take a shower…it’s my beloved godson’s 21st birthday and I’m expected at the celebration.
If I can’t get there he will bring me dinner anyway because that’s who he is.
I’ll get there, damn it…
I got the results back on the CT scan of my back and it shows pain will be my companion for the duration.
My mom is on the couch, lost in dementia and I suspect her cat has hidden and died over night.
The future looks short and miserable…but He is risen.
Looking past the immediate future, I see new heavens and a new earth where the cats don’t die, the mind is clear, and the pain is gone…because He is risen.
Today I will celebrate Trey and celebrate Jesus …because someday all will be well.
May He give you all reason to celebrate today…because He is risen, indeed.
Michael, thanks.
I live with back pain myself – spinal stenosis – and without the injections and meds it would mean me a mean S.O.B. It did make me a mean S.O.B.
I am very sorry about your mom, and her cat, and your back. I would say I will pray for you, but that sounds like platitudes just typing it on my screen, and you need far, far better than that – the kind of thing only a powerful God can provide.
For those of us who don’t believe, that sounds absurd.
For those like me who waver, who want to believe despite what we see and experience, it sounds like hope and absurdity in the face of cold, cold reality. And yet it promises everything we want and got robbed of on this earth, in the only reality we know.
BrianD,
Thank you for the kind words.
While I was trying to get ready to go see Trey he was attacked by a dog whilst skateboarding…he’ll be fine, but deserves better on his birthday.
If my faith had anything to do with circumstances and present reality, I’d have no faith at all.
All my eggs are in the resurrection basket…
The difficulty is that I still have some of that “bible promises”theology stuck in me…that stuff they told us about how life would be better if we just believed.
Suffering is always a surprise and we ask God to fix it…and sometimes it gets fixed and sometimes it doesn’t.
I still believe…because I know that this isn’t how it’s supposed to be…I know that someday it will be what He intended.
I pray that God blesses you before then…that you get a glimpse of the joy that is your inheritance.
You’re a good man Brian…and it matters.
Found the cat…still alive…
Michael, thank YOU for the kind words and encouragement.
Great news about her cat!
Sorry that happened to Trey.
In my tradition we were told if we believed in Jesus and obeyed His Word, great things would happen, we would prosper and the devil would run.
In reality, all kinds of things happen, we often struggle to get by and the devil runs alright, he runs amok while the good Christians yell at us from the stands for letting him do it…
This is a fallen world and everything is broken.
There are times when God intervenes, but tracing His hand is difficult.
I do pray for temporal blessings for myself and others…but I’m committed to helping people transfer their hope to where it belongs…to His return…
HE IS RISEN? AMEN,AMEN, AMEN! ! !
Michael
“ The difficulty is that I still have some of that “bible promises”theology stuck in me…that stuff they told us about how life would be better if we just believed.”
Yeah, I get tired of that sermon too. I see just the opposite in the scriptures. “In this world you will have tribulation…”
“ And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.”
Sounds like the gospel mixed with the American dream
I am in Southern California today visiting my mother in law. My back pain, like yours is debilitating. So you and I are connected by our mutual faith and severe back pain. But I like dogs over cats! 🙂
From dust I was assembled and to dust I’ll return.
But I believe that one day Jesus of Nazareth will remake me so that I live again with death no longer coded into my double helix (DNA).
I see several words in this thread with which I can relate. Stenosis (mine is in my neck), back pain, mutual faith, dogs, and this: “If my faith had anything to do with circumstances and present reality, I’d have no faith at all.
All my eggs are in the resurrection basket…”
Officerhoppy,
It wears on you…and like BrianD, it makes me less than pleasant at times…my cat makes me feel better… 🙂
CK,
We have a fellowship of the hurting…
Amen Michael, and I’d rather hurt in fellowship than to do it alone.
CK
Your comment reminds me of a line in the Billy Joel song “Piano Man”: “they’re all sharing a drink that’s called loneliness but it’s better than drinking alone”
Easter was tough for me. My first since leaving ministry. My first without a wife in 28 years. One of my two kids was with me, at least. The other had an overnight shift at the hospital. I went to my sisters church to hear her sing, and she’s amazing…but everything else was just salt in a wound.
WHat the hell has my life become?
Josh,
That’s a lot of hard stuff piled into one day…praying that you come out the other side with some new hope and joy…
Dang Josh, that’s rough. I’m sorry. Praying along with Michael.
Hop Along, that’s perfect!
Thanks friends. THat’s why I still come to PP. The fellowship of pain.
I thought you keep coming in hopes of getting a second trophy since you lost the first one I gave you. 😉
Sorry, Josh, Kevin, Hoppy.
PP has been a lot of things…including the fellowship of pain…and healing .
One thing that helps me is to remember that, although many of us have family traditions revolving around holidays like Easter, the actual feast or holy day we celebrate as Easter is solely about what God in Christ did for the children of Adam. He fulfilled all righteousness and declared “It is finished” without your help or mine, and he took away the sins of the world despite the world’s rejection of his work!
However we’re hurting, whether physically or spiritually, Christ’s death and resurrection holds the answer and provides our only eternal hope. Therefore, we can bring all our hurts, sins and petitions, to our Lord on Easter morning and every following Sunday morning when and where his mercy and grace are freely and abundantly offered to all of us.
Thanks Jean- well put!
Michael
I am in So Cal. I went to an Anglican men’s group last night, with my pal Bob Bennett. Nice folks. After a short 30 min liturgy (which I loved), 15 guys and the bishop had an open discussion while drinking adult beverages and smoking cigars. It was very enjoyable
Still trying to learn the difference between Anglican and Protestant theology. So I took advantage of the opportunity to attend.
Anglican is protestant.
The Bishop made the distinction between the two not me.
Officerhoppy,
Anglicanism is both Protestant and catholic…… the center of Anglican theology is the Incarnation and Eucharist, while for Protestants it’s the Scriptures and sermon.
Anglicans also live on a broad spectrum…there are evangelical Anglicans, Reformed Anglicans, and Anglo Catholics….
Historically, it is considered a Protestant sect, but with a lot of nuance…and adult beverages…
I loved the liturgy—I was raised Lutheran where we recited a liturgy—I even remembered the Apostles Creed from my teenaged years and was able to recite it.
I also appreciated he lack of “uptightness” do smoking cigars and consuming adult beverages. Had the nicest glass of French whiskey—and no guilt!
Let me preface by saying I appreciate Jean. I really do. We butted heads for years, but he proved to be a good guy with thoughtfulness and compassion. I appreciate what he said above…but…
That doesn’t help me at all. I almost didn’t survive 2022. Like scary close to not finishing the year. Thanks god, sometime in January the will to live returned, but the pain is still immense.
I used to think it sounded great to tell people we have a god is suffering right there with you. It sounds stupid on the other side. Nobody wants to feel like this ever. If you are god and you can’t alleviate my suffering, at least save yourself. It all sounds like a bunch of stuff we tell ourselves to be OK with life sucking, and to kick the can down the road and only worry about happiness in the afterlife. It all looks so weird to me right now.
Josh,
I hear you and it’s something I struggle with personally and as a pastor.
As I have said here many times of late, all my eggs are in the eschatological basket, because I don’t see much hope here.
I know that God occasionally intervenes, but I don’t see it often enough to bank on it.
The Scriptures seem to agree with my assessment.
I do not think it stupid, however…I know that my God agrees that things are broken and horribly painful and difficult and demonstrated His unity with those who suffer…and somehow my suffering is part of the plan to end all suffering one day.
If I can play even a tiny part in the re-creation of heaven and earth to what it was meant to be…there is no higher calling.
Things ARE broken and painful – that is indisputable. I can’t for the life of me understand why they have to be that way. We have a good, loving, all-powerful god and he wants us (and himself apparently) to feel this kind of pain all the time.
And “he’s making things right”, which means he lost control at some point and is working to get it back.
Josh,
There is a lot of mystery here…and for me the only thing that illuminates it is faith.
I do not believe that God wants us to be in this sort of pain and brokenness…but He also created us with the ability to break what He made…and the way back home is hard.
I don’t think He lost control either…I think He respected our choices…
Hi Josh,
“It all sounds like a bunch of stuff we tell ourselves to be OK with life sucking, and to kick the can down the road and only worry about happiness in the afterlife.”
I hope I wasn’t conveying this thought, but if I came across this way, then I apologize.
My perspective is not that life sucking is OK, but that life sucking is my expectation as a follower of Jesus, that is, it is the norm for a Christian not the exception.
I will give you a short example from a text I am currently teaching:
“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter through it. How narrow is the gate, and how difficult is the way that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Mt. 7:13-14 EHV)
Note that Jesus says the way is “difficult” (ESV, “hard”; GW, “full of trouble”). Jesus’ goal for Christians is future oriented; it is eternal life through the narrow gate at the end of our difficult pilgrimate here in this broken world.
Most people don’t want to take the narrow path at all, and many who do begin there, leave the narrow path later, as the Parable of the Sower teaches. Trouble, persecution, worries of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth are among the reasons that people leave the narrow path.
I say this because with the knowledge of God’s Word, I am able to process and understand why my life so often sucks. I expect my life to be difficult; I place my hope in the life to come. My surprizes come from the unexpected blessings that God sometimes provides me, which I do not deserve, and the good that I sometimes experience here and now. To me, any good I receive is what surprizes me, not when I receive the bad.
I am glad the will to live has returned to you and I pray that God would heal your pain. Don’t give up! Easter proves that a better life is in store for all of Christ’s lambs. He is risen!
Do you think Adam and Eve really understood the consequences of that choice? That for at least thousands of years people were going to be brutalized, die miserable, and suffer eternal torture because of their choice?
Josh,
I do not know the depth of their understanding…but I know that humans do things everyday and will do things today that cause suffering and death to other humans, sometimes thousands of humans at a time.
We are full of and surrounded by evil…for now…
Thanks Jean – and my responses to you aren’t personal at all. Your words are kind. I get it.
That said, ” life sucking is my expectation as a follower of Jesus, that is, it is the norm for a Christian not the exception.”
I don’t think I want that anymore. Maybe another system can provide some earthly joy, and maybe…maybe, the one life that we are guaranteed doesn’t have to suck.
I don’t want anybody to feel like I feel, so I won’t take the discussion any further. You are all very kind, loving people. I thank you for taking me in.
“I don’t think I want that anymore. Maybe another system can provide some earthly joy, and maybe…maybe, the one life that we are guaranteed doesn’t have to suck.”
You can pick any system you want…but life will still suck because we do.
Christianity is the only “system” that speaks to the truth about both God and humans…and joy can only take hold in truth.
I’m glad you’re here…and I think discussing these things are healthy and necessary…
“Christianity is the only ‘system’ that speaks to the truth about both God and humans…and joy can only take hold in truth.”
Amen!
” life will still suck because we do.”
I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think you suck, and I’m starting to believe that I don’t suck either.
Josh,
Let me also say that my views are simply my way of coping with my own pain and the pain I see around me…I don’t speak from Sinai…can’t even spell it…
Josh,
Trust me…there are times when I don’t like myself for good reason.
Human history is clear…we break everything.
I know I suck, that’s for sure. Thank God for His mercy.
I don’t suck. I’m a good dude. I tried my damnedest to raise my kids the best way I possibly could. If nothing else the love I have shown them means that I can’t possibly suck as a person.
I suppose I’m ok in comparison to some…but not when compared to the ethics and commandments of Jesus…
“What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.”
Romans 4:1-2 ESV
Yeah, in that sense, I don’t expect to go to heaven because I’m such a good dude, but it doesn’t erase the fact that I am a really good dude.
And yes, I could post an entire bible study to show that I am in fact garbage. I’m just not buying that interpretation any longer. I can’t afford to see myself that way, and I’m not going to believe that God sees me that way either.
I’m choosing to believe in the god who runs out to celebrate the prodigal son. Radical acceptance.
We are good in that God created us in His own image and conferred upon us the ability to do good things, which many times we do.
In other ways we are bad when we choose to do bad instead, and yes, even the best of us fall woefully short of the unmitigated holiness of God.
When we reflect upon just our own kind, we can and do genuinely say that some people are “good” people while saying others are “bad” people. Our assessments are many times subjective and biased, but they do also often contain palpable truths and sincerities.
God does not force us to come to Him, but when we do, yes, there is radical acceptance, whether good or bad.
Josh, I do honestly think you are a good dude and believe that God fully accepts you as His child.
Josh,
I think that’s a much healthier and theologically more accurate view of humanity…
“Life is hard but God is good”…so it’s said. All I really know is that life is hard. The “God is good” part still remains to be seen. For me at least. Every accomplishment I’ve ever made (and there aren’t that many) has taken a lot of sweat and tears.
I think God is good because I think it is His Spirit testifying to me that this isn’t the way it was meant to be…and suffered with us so we can someday reign with Him.
I will run everything from Crater Lake to south 25 miles… 🙂
“I’m choosing to believe in the god who runs out to celebrate the prodigal son. Radical acceptance.”
Note what the prodigal son says to his father upon his return:
“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ ” (Luke 15:21 ESV)
It looks as though the son did not think of himself as a good guy.
But, the good news is that on Good Friday, Jesus Christ took our sins to the cross and made atonement for them. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
I think a Christian can and rightfully should say of himself, “I am blessed,” “I am valued,” “I am a saint,” not because of whom I am as a member of the human race, but because of who God has made me in Christ.
We are all image bearers…
Jean
Respectfully, what you said above sounds like the secret to a “happy” Christian life is just mental We should have a positive mental attitude. I guess that’s ok for some and it works. But what do you do when your experience doesn’t match up with your theology or your profession. Life has always been a struggle. As a pastor, I lacked the skills and abilities of my contemporaries. It was a struggle for about 27 years. It wasn’t fun. But i showed up for work every sunday. Felt it was my job to do the best i could with what i had.
The Christian life isn’t always what what it’s purported or proclaimed to be from the pulpit. But I am saved and being transformed. God owes me nothing more than that—IMO.
Officerhoppy,
“Respectfully, what you said above sounds like the secret to a “happy” Christian life is just mental We should have a positive mental attitude.”
The first thing I would say is that Christianity does not deal in secrets.
The second thing is that “happiness” is by definition a mental state. I think the difference between Christians and unbelievers is, What is the source of one’s happiness? or What makes one happy?
In the 3rd Article of the Apostle’s Creed, it invites us to confess, “I believe in … the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.”
Is not the promise of the resurrection of the body, free of pain, disease, sin, etc. and of life with God in the age to come, free of death, the devil, pain, sorrow tears, etc. not ample reason to make one happy? What esle compares?
I don’t really like the word “happy,” because it is IMO a poor translation of the word that is also translated “blessed,” but I use it in the conversation. There are other words that also are apropos, such as joy, peace, comfort, contentment.
In other words, despite the sin and suffering that a Christian may observe or experience around him, he can face today and tomorrow with joy, peace and contentment (happiness if you’d like), assurred that this temporal life is not all there is nor his final destination. That hope allows a Christian to live for and give to others generously, knowing that when he is all used up here on this veil of tears, a better life awaits him.
Jean
God bless you friend. But your response is why I find it difficult to attend church. People at times are not happy or blessed, as you say. I, and others, don’t always feel “blessed” or “happy” but they press on regardless because of a commitment they made to Christ. In so many churches, and among fellow believers, it’s almost expected that other believers be happy. To not feel that way seems almost a sin
So many worship service feel like a rah-rah thing to get folks “whipped up”. Some times as a Christian, i want to sing the blues—but people would be concerned if I did.
I often times feel I can’t be honest with my feelings
That’s why I appreciate Josh’s openness. I applaud him for being authentic. With him, I will weep as scriptures say and not try to preach to him or make him feel guilt for his honest, or spout out a litany of scripture (as so many do).
Some times life just feels like sh%t. He’ll work thru it.
I think what Jean posited is indeed how we are to view our lives and circumstances.
The problem is that it is still very difficult to actually live that way.
Stress and pain…physical and emotional… wears one down to the bone.
I find moments of joy because I search for them as I would a lost cat…
These discussions become difficult when we go from general theological principles to someone’s actual life experience. I do not want anyone telling me how I should feel, and do not want to give anyone the impression that I am telling them how they should feel. The fact is: we feel! We all feel.
Feeling is a lot like faith or love or hate. Someone can tell me what I should believe, or who I should or should not love, or who I should or should not hate, but I believe that those feelings are not something I can be coerced to have or even be convinced to have. I just have those feelings.
Having a feeling does not make the feeling right. I am not the arbitar of what is right or wrong. Personally, I think that many of the problems I have had in life and in my relationships have come from defective feelings. I have hurt people and felt good about it. I have hurt people and felt I was the victim. I have been hurt and misinterpreted the action or statement of another person. I have been an ass on this page and have incurred an appropriate punishment for that.
All this is to say that feelings are incredibly deceiving. Feelings in relation to others generally move towards either being in some sense a victim or winning a victory of sorts. This is a defense mechanism protecting us from admitting to ourselves that we were in the wrong.
Faith in Christ allows us to take off the mask and confess to him who we really are. Maybe in a particualr case you are the perpetrator, or maybe you are the victim. Maybe you are in the wrong or maybe you are inocent. Whatever it is, whatever our burden, Jesus bids us to come to him with our burdens.
I don’t think this is psychology. If it is, then the Christian faith is a bunch of hoey. If it’s not psychology, then Jesus actually is the one who became a curse for us, to redeem us from the curse.
I have not read much of this thread so my comments are not pointed into the conversations.
The resurrection accounts are phenomenal in regard to offering us a way forward theologically and sacramentally. My comments will cling simply to Luke. The tightly organized Emmaus narrative gives us a risen and unrecognized Savior, walking and detailing the Gospel story. His self-revelation in the breaking of bread is consequential.
1) Solidifies that Christ cannot be known merely by history but must be known by revelation
2) Passover is forever redefined and now has a new cycle of time, a ‘new exodus’ focus, and a new covenantal function.
3) The document seems to anticipate or perhaps reflect the dawning of docetic accretions. Messiah vindicating his humanity is decisive. Eating fish and claiming flesh and bone.
4) The phrase itself “breaking bread” becomes shorthand for eucharist. Believers have a covenant meal that will be ensconced by the subsequent Luka writing.
There’s more but for now
I really like points 1-4 Alan. I might go further on point 2 and add that the the focus is not only on a new exodus but a redemption from slavery, of which the OT event was a type. But overall your points are excellent.