King of the Hysterical Ninnies

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149 Responses

  1. Al says:

    Like you said, meh.

    Calvary Chapel has a bad reputation and that bad rep is growing and spreading….and not for any of those reasons, at least not in the general church and civic circles.

    But in those Discernment Ministry subcultures CC is still suspect….but those arguments are nonsense to the vast majority of folks. But pointing out all the abuse and corruption and the lying and the many bad examples….that resonates with people.

    I’ve had very big pubic figures and people in government etc go “Wow, Calvary Chapel and that Moses Model thing are bad news.”

  2. ( |o )====::: says:

    Dear Roger Oakland,
    Nobody cares, Roger, nobody cares!

    They’re all too busy following Jesus, loving their neighbors, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, visiting those imprisoned, those who are lonely… serving The King and The Kingdom.

    How about you do the same?

  3. Al says:

    I wouldn’t say “nobody” cares. Roger has a particular audience and following who is tuned into the nuances of Rick Warren and the Jesuits etc. It’s quite a subculture. There is a niche.

    I see it nonsense and much ado about nothing, but they would likely see me as a heathen heretic or something similar for my Calvinistic beliefs and my liberal theology and my less Puritanical lifestyle.

    Though I can prophesy like a mothertrucker.

  4. the Jesuit Borg (brian) says:

    Resistance is futile you will be assimilated

    Signed Jesuit infiltrator

  5. Al says:

    ^^ Hahahahahahaha

  6. Al says:

    Srsly, how the “frick” are the Jesuits getting anywhere? You have a growing Group of those leaving the church and a huge rise in Atheism and Agnosticism….and the fastest other growing segments are Islam and the LDS Church is making great headway.

    Catholicism and Calvary Chapel type evangelicals are dying off and losing ground.

  7. ( |o )====::: says:

    I honestly think there are plenty of people who have a vital faith in God but are absolutely DONE with organized “religion” except for retaining the right to pick and choose and adapt from the traditions that which resonates with them.

  8. Erunner says:

    How the heck did Roger get that link to the site? What’s nice is from there you can link to a lot of stuff regarding Skip Heitzig. It also is a stroll down memory lane seeing all of the names of those who used to post here. I was new and being a pain at the time. I had jerkdom down quite well! 🙂 That was when posts were coming so fast by the time you posted something you were already behind!! And the beat goes on……

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “the song Roger sings over and over again is that the Roman Catholic church is going to co-opt evangelicalism in general and Calvary Chapel in particular.”

    Well this is not true. From my view, much of evangelicalism and Calvary Chapel are not being co opted at all. They have proudly walked themselves right back into the Roman camp – complete Roman theology of good works without the Roman trappings.

    ** disclaimer – the ELCA has done the same even in a written agreement with Rome and we know they first had to give up the true faith. Evangelicals got jealous I guess.

  10. Kevin H says:

    I don’t know whether to find Oakland’s thinking and writing to be sad or comical or deficient or slanderous. Probably a combination of all of the above.

    So he needs to rehash 10 year old material. Much of it written by a man (Abanes) who has seemingly completely disappeared from the Christian apologetic/theological world. All to grind his ax again with Calvary Chapel and his self-deluded belief that many of them are going the way of the “apostate” Warren and Catholicism.

    So in this newest article he even includes Joe Focht (whose name he can’t even spell right) and Don McClure in his attacks of being associated with Warren. I can tell you that Focht is no friend of Warren and assumably McClure isn’t either. Purpose Driven is a bad word in our Church.

    And so Oakland burns his bridges even with some of those in CC who may be open to his writing. If he’s trying to reach the crowd in CC who place an emphasis on the end times and have significant concerns about current day apostasy and movements, he sure isn’t being very smart about it.

  11. Erunner says:

    I’ve seen discernment types flip at the idea a Catholic could even be saved. They were hysterical that Greg Laurie had that interview with Mel Gibson at the Harvest Crusade. Greg, Mel, Billy Graham are all part of the great whore according to them. Seems there are degrees of “discernment” which is quite scary and has basically consigned all of us to the pit for one reason or another.

    Reminds me of an old saying that states “shoot them all and let God sort them out.”

    It’s distressing when believers can’t even agree to disagree. This is not what Jesus ever intended.

  12. Col46 says:

    “The Vatican has no In ‘n Out burgers, so it may be a while before they swim the Tiber en masse…”

    That was funny!

  13. Al says:

    “I honestly think there are plenty of people who have a vital faith in God but are absolutely DONE with organized “religion” except for retaining the right to pick and choose and adapt from the traditions that which resonates with them.”

    Agreed. I literally get messages everyday on Facebook or from the blog that say exactly that

    stuff like: “I used to go to Calvary Chapel for years, now my whole family avoids church, we just love Jesus” as well as other denoms. It’s the Trend and for good reason.

  14. surfer51 says:


    ‘ I was new and being a pain at the time. ‘

    All I can recall is you wanting more “friends” on your facebook page… 🙂

  15. surfer51 says:

    AI your right on.

    There is an incredible amount of once faithful church goers who no longer go to organized religion.

    But they love Jesus.

    And yes it is a trend.

    Surfing on Sunday at Old Mans is about as much church as some will get all week…

    And it is good.

  16. EricL says:

    Shh, let’s not rile Roger Oakland up, or else he’ll find out about our secret plans to take over his ministry and turn it over to the Jesuits. Don’t let him know, but it’s time to proceed to Stage 2 of Operation Takeover.

  17. Al says:

    surfer51 it really is good, it actually makes me very happy to see people remove those heavy yokes of man-made “church”. For those who like to attend out of some sort of social construct and to “fellowship” or whatever, no problem. But, what is sold, falsely, is the need to go to “church” to validate your salvation and to earn your “get-out-of-hell-free” card and that if you don’t attend and support “my ministry!” ye are a heathen and in danger of the fires of hell!

    That’s bogus. You can find Jesus and love people much more outside of an institutional church than inside and I’m very happy to see more and more people realize they were suckers and that the particular “pastor” has no power over them and is not God or Jesus at all.

    I do my small part to help those folks every day by pointing out the powerlessness and impotence of these supposed “specially anointed” who are nothing more than sinners and humans like the rest of us.

    I do appreciate good pastors who do it out of true love of others, their attitude is much different toward folks and I do not count those good pastors in my rant. I’m talking about the Businesses and Cult-like pastors who it’s all about them in a very cult-like manner.

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “That’s bogus. You can find Jesus and love people much more outside of an institutional church than inside…”

    This is not true. We find Jesus where he has told us he would be – in the church, in his preached word and through his water baptism and in his body and blood.

    You and God on the golf course on Sunday morning does not cut it.

  19. Al says:

    “I honestly think there are plenty of people who have a vital faith in God but are absolutely DONE with organized “religion” except for retaining the right to pick and choose and adapt from the traditions that which resonates with them.”

    I disagree. God/Jesus is Spirit. The Ecclesia is in a spiritual context, it’s not the building or the cracker and juice etc. I respect the Lutheran’s right to disagree and understand your position. I just don’t see it that way.

  20. Al says:

    “in his preached word”

    Yes, the Logos of God, God’s utterance. God’s mind, God’s Reason. It’s a spiritual thing not the ink on the page of a physical book.

    Love your neighbor, love God. Beattitudes. Help the orphan and widow. Follow Jesus’s example…he hung out with the sinners, railed against the hypocritical religious leaders, beat the money-changers getting rich off of God, etc.

    You really can’t do all that stuff sitting in a pew listening to anecdotes and a speech.

  21. Al says:

    How many times do you need to hear it to go and be it LOL.

    I got all the sermons memorized. I can preach them better than the preachers. What does going to another lecture about God and the bible going to do? LOL

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I said nothing about a building and I obviously said nothing about crackers and juice. But I will agree with you that ‘crackers and juice’ is not a Christian event.

    Here is where we will disagree – you have your thoughts on this — I have the Bible. The Apostles are clear on how to do church.

    “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.”
    1.) the teaching and preaching of God’s word – not just some sort of solo meditation program
    2.) The breaking of bread = communion
    3.) THE Prayers = not just some, let’s sit around and make up some prayers – but the Prayers.

    Read Paul in 1 Cor 10 and 11 about conduct in the church around the Lord’s Table.

    I know it is not popular today to think that there really is a way to come to church and receive. The normal evangelical method is to gather to do ‘worship’ to Jesus – instead of the biblical way that we are told to gather together (Heb 9) to actually receive from God his good and gracious gifts — but ya gotta be present.

  23. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “in his preached word”

    Yes, the Logos of God, God’s utterance. God’s mind, God’s Reason. It’s a spiritual thing not the ink on the page of a physical book.

    You may wish to re read what you wrote. Preached word means something – verbal communications – NOT as you suggest that it means the exact opposite. How do you equate “preached word” with the Logos, God’s utterance – God’s mind and God’s reason and most of all you equate the preached word as a spiritual thing???? Come on buddy – talk with some reason here.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “How many times do you need to hear it to go and be it LOL.”

    Every week.

  25. Al says:

    I think the Hyper-calvinists and Determinists may be correct. Everyone is going to do what they are compelled to do, it is what it is, it will be what it will be.

    Many folks will do different things, holding different opinions. In a sense, everyone is just doing and opining what they are compelled and created to do.

  26. Dave Rolph says:

    I love Roger and believe he means well. He has been through a lot of personal tragedy that perhaps affected his objectivity at times, but he is a good guy.

    In general, not just for Roger but for most of us, when we become frustrated with the limitations of our own success and accomplishments, it is easy to be critical of people who are more successful than we are. We see them doing things and teaching things that we are certain are wrong. And they keep getting away with it and God seems to bless their efforts more than our righteous offerings. It is confusing and often leads us to a conspiracy mentality. I’ve been there many times where my attitude is that the vast majority of people are either con men or idiots.

    Just doing life and following Jesus seems like pretty much a full time job to me. I would rather assume that someone who serves Jesus the best they know how is my brother or sister, rather than to ascribe some nefarious motives to them and risk attacking a member of the body of Christ.

    There was a time when I was a crusader against those I perceived as bad guys. It never really stopped them and it almost destroyed me.

  27. Al says:

    ” when we become frustrated with the limitations of our own success and accomplishments, it is easy to be critical of people who are more successful than we are”


    And the Passive Aggressive Burn Award of the Year goes to…..

    ….drumroll please….

    Dave Rolph! 🙂

  28. victorious says:

    I completely disapprove of anything Roger has done and will do when it comes to this manic, fear driven obsession with treating apostasy as if you can catch it like the latest strain of influenza.

    However , I worked together with Roger 11 years ago In a fruitful front lines outreach focused upon Creation/ Evolution in a city given over to the occult in his native country When having coffee with him he was already being sucked into the apostasy fantasy the way someone slowly becomes addicted to prescription painkillers.

    Roger is such a workaholic farmer I think he left himself vulnerable by neglecting to nurture his own soul. He was also raised in a denomination that denied the Trinity ; that denomination had it’s origins in the beginnings of the latter rain movement that short circuited legitimate local revival.

    That experience has also left Roger open to being triggered by fears of apostasy.

    I also worked with Roger 21 years prior to that in a similar outreach in another region known for it’s commitment to alternative spiritualities.

    I pray Roger comes back to his sensibilities because he dies have a solid foundation of faithfulness and fruitfulness both in terms of his character and ministry.

  29. Erunner says:

    Proverbs 17:17 A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for the time of trouble.

    This is the ultimate friendship. Even when we’re at our worst this friend will not abandon you. They are in it for the long haul. That’s the kind of friends we all need.

    I see this in Dave’s defense of Roger. Neither of them is perfect.

    I can disagree with what Roger is doing but I can also see why Dave has posted what he did. So I’m fine with it and can only pray I can be that kind of friend to someone.

  30. Dave Rolph says:

    Thanks Erunner. I really didn’t intend what I said as either a defense of Roger or a passive-aggressive burn. I am disappointed with many of the extreme things Roger says and I disagree with most of them. I just feel for the guy, that’s all. And I’m learning that not everyone who disagrees with me does so because they are an idiot. 😉

  31. Al says:

    Dave Rolph said, “There was a time when I was a crusader against those I perceived as bad guys. It never really stopped them and it almost destroyed me.”

    Then why do you preach and fight the devil? 😉

    Just give up and throw in the towel, it’s not gonna really stop the devil or bad stuff etc.

  32. Erunner says:

    Dave, I realize you weren’t defending his actions as you were clear about that. You are being a friend which can be done in the midst of huge disagreements. You had nothing to gain by posting but you did nonetheless.

    I can only be encouraged. God bless.

  33. Dave Rolph says:

    Thanks Erunner. That means a lot to me.

    Alex, I fight the devil and not people because my battle is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces of evil. Having said that, I’m not saying that is everyone’s call necessarily. Sometimes you have to battle against people in order to battle against the devil. I’m just not called personally to battle against people who have sincerely held beliefs, even when they are wrong. I only speak for me though. I would always defend someone’s right to go on their own crusades.

  34. Al says:

    Thanks for clarifying that Dave. Speaking of “crusades”…we’d certainly want to resist an Islamic takeover for instance.

  35. Dave Rolph says:

    Good point Alex. I’m sure some crusaders believe their cause is as crucial as stopping Islamic extremists though, so everyone has to pick their own battles. One man’s crusade though is another man’s craziness. Let each be convinced in his own mind.

  36. Al says:

    “One man’s crusade though is another man’s craziness. Let each be convinced in his own mind.”

    Well, Chuck Smith sure was convinced that he needed to rebel against the Foursquare Church and start his own Non-Denomination and co-opt the gay evangelist Lonnie Frisbee’s charisma and institutionalize the hippies and druggies.

    Then he creates a weird sort of personality-cult thing where he became an idol to many, and the Moses Model stuff which hasn’t been good, and the affair he had in 1977 that got covered up which led to many pastors in CC thinking that’s OK since Chuck did it, etc etc.

    Chuck lied a lot. I’m not a fan. Chuck’s stuff is viewed as a “crazy crusade” by many outside the CC Bubble and I don’t think they are wrong. For every so-called piece of “good fruit”…there is a lot of bad fruit and damage that’s been done. It’ll take a generation or two to undo some of that damage.

  37. Al says:

    At least Roger Oakland’s crusade is essentially harmless.

    Chuck’s crusade did a lot of damage to a lot of folks…but the CC faithful like to ignore that fact but can find it in them to publicly criticize a Roger Oakland?

    Seems hypocritical to me. Roger’s not a big fish, why pick on him and not Chuck?

  38. Bobby Grow says:

    I met Roger Oakland in his office in the Logos building back in the late 90s; my friend Steven was his assistant.

    My friend became hardcore Federal Reformed and has since left CC like so many.

  39. Jess says:

    AI wrote: “I wouldn’t say “nobody” cares. Roger has a particular audience and following who is tuned into the nuances of Rick Warren and the Jesuits etc. It’s quite a subculture. There is a niche.”

    Yes, and I am part of that niche. I know few believe it, and the overwhelming majority see it as nutter material. But I am fully convinced of the jesuit conspiracy, and so while I don’t agree with everything that Oakland says, he will continue to have an audience.

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Here is what is really funny. I see no problem with Oakland saying people are wrong — I do it all the time. But I back it up along with my church peeps. I /We will not and do not comune with people we think are teaching wrong – especially if we think it is dangerous. So I would not commune with either Oakland or the people he points out.

    Evangelicals being of a non discriminating tradition ( non discriminating meaning you make no choices or value judgments of right and wrong when it comes to what other believers believe, teach or confess – you all would actually welcome Oakland to the table – why is that?

  41. Michael says:

    There are a lot of people fully convinced of things that don’t exist.
    It is “nutter” material.
    If one is content with being an accuser of the brethren, then that’s probably a bigger issue…

  42. Michael says:

    Oakland would be welcome at the table because of his faith in what Jesus did, not his nonsense.
    That was covered at the cross too.

  43. Except that he is a false teacher.

  44. Michael says:

    So am I…I just don’t know which part is false and I try to avoid it if possible.
    I thought you teach that the sin problem is taken care of…

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well I don’t think I said anything about sin – heck the Supper is for sinners only.
    We are particular about who we commune with so as to not confuse folks.

    If you think the supper is for sinners and that’s all – why would you discipline someone by withholding the supper?

  46. Michael says:

    I would only withhold the Supper from someone who does not profess Christ or is under church discipline.

  47. Jess says:

    Michael wrote: “I just don’t know which part is false and I try to avoid it if possible”

    Then in that vein, you would acknowledge that, perhaps you might be wrong to regard it as nutter material.

  48. Michael says:


    I believe that all of us have some degree of error in our understandings of biblical doctrine.

    The insanity of most of the “discernment” people is crystal clear.

    The high hilarity is that some of the true believers of such nonsense do not realize that it is their soteriology that is similar to Rome and should be the issue ,not random associations.

  49. Michael says:

    Calvary Chapel isn’t headed toward either Rome or Geneva.
    To posit such simply shows a complete lack of understanding of Rome, Geneva, and Costa Mesa.

  50. Jess says:

    Understanding as you perceive understanding to be. That’s why guys like Oakland will always have an audience. You may disparage him and them, but, you might be just as wrong as you believe them to be.

  51. Michael says:


    If you think it’s good to believe stories made out of whole cloth and that false accusations are proper in the church, you have a problem.

    If you think that CC is in bed with the Jesuits, you’re nuts.

    I know and actually speak with a lot of these players…and I know that they are utterly clueless about such things.

    By the way…I don’t agree with Rick’s theology or methodology…but you will never meet people that are nicer and more committed to Christ than Rick and his wife.

    That will give you some meat to rip through…

  52. Nonnie says:

    Michael’s 51 ” but you will never meet people that are nicer and more committed to Christ than Rick and his wife.” Agree!

    As for Roger Oakland; he spoke at our church, here in the UK, a few years ago. It was the same ole’ ODM diatribe of years gone by and of course, several in our church were eating it up. Hubby and I were sorry to see a Sunday service dedicated to that kind of nonsense. However, when he started talking about the orphanage he sponsored in Asia, that, I believe, carried the name of his deceased son, then I could see and hear the compassion of Christ in the man…it was then that he sounded like a man that had the heart of the saviour. Afterwards, as we spoke to him, I walked away feeling like he was a hurting soul. I was sorry for him.

  53. Ms, ODM says:
  54. Jess says:

    Michael, you believe that Rick Warren is “committed to Christ” in what you believe that statement means. I believe he is committed to himself and his own agenda. His agenda doesn’t line up with the Bible, when doctrine is the only factor. But it doesn’t affect me that much. I show someone that Rick Warren is basically promoting catholicism at every turn in recent years, and they themselves distance themselves from Warren. He’ll replace those losses with more lemmings. And many of them will wake up later as well. Those that don’t wake up, well, the way is narrow, and FEW find it

  55. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jess, I am curious. No one speaks against Warrens theology as much as I do – but I don’t do the catholic thing. He just has a poor theology.

    Here is what I would like you to address – which RCC doctrines / dogmas are you seeing Warren promoting? Transubstantiation? The Assumption of Mary? Pergatory? The selling of indulgences? Have you seen Warren praying to Mary or the saints?

    You made the claim – please get down to some specifics.

  56. Michael says:

    MS. ODM,

    I enjoyed that.
    See…I told you he was a good guy. 🙂

  57. Jess says:

    Warren recently spoke about how catholics don’t actually worship Mary, but that they are simply praying to her, and we “evangelicals” just don’t understand catholicism properly. A simple Google search will find you your references/proof. Likewise, he wrote the forward for a book that seeks to bring everyone “home to catholicism”. He met with the pope and stated that he was a great servant of God. He has “purpose driven catholics”. There are many more examples. But if you won’t believe these, then you won’t believe anything else. But you got what you asked for, though you’ll say you didn’t 😉

  58. Michael says:


    I await your answers to MLD’s inquiry…

  59. Jess says:

    My number 57 was addressed to MLD

  60. Michael says:


    And it was a weak response.
    What Roman Catholic doctrines have you evidence that Warren promotes?
    We’re waiting with torches ablaze…

  61. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jess – so your point is that he is nice to Catholics … big deal.

    But you have not named any RCC doctrines that he promotes or that he has incorporated in his church.

    Many evangelicals are ‘nice’ to the Jews – say nice things when they are in the presence of big time rabbis – and tell people that they do not understand Jews or their practices. Jess – do you accuse evangelicals of promoting Judaism?

  62. Jess says:

    Michael, if someone writes a forward and endorses a book that wants every person to jump full-body into catholicism, then that alone is enough. But add the pope being referred to as a “man of God”, and that’s more than enough. You see what you want to see. You won’t see anything that disagrees with your position. So I will return you to your regularly scheduled mantra: “ODM’sareevil.ODM’sareevil.ODM’sareevil….” 😉

  63. Michael says:


    It’s enough for you because you need a devil in the flesh.
    If Warren suggested that people leave the SBC and join the Roman communion, then you have a point.
    He didn’t.

    MLD’s point about the Jews is gold…

    Now ,do you have an example of Warren practicing Roman rites or not?

  64. Jess says:

    MLD’s point about the Jews is fool’s gold. If a pastor wrote a book exclaiming the greatness of keeping the law of Judaism, I’d refer to that pastor as a false teacher.

    Likewise, Rick Warren wants to encourage people to regard the pope as a teacher (who teaches ROMAN RITES), and bring people “home to Rome” (where you find ROMAN RITES). And if I “need a devil in the flesh”, then so did Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, Jude, JESUS……… all of whom pointed out false teachers and false teachings. Pharisees are those who put man’s words above the Bible. Rick Warren does that with Rome.

  65. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jess – “Likewise, he wrote the forward for a book that seeks to bring everyone “home to catholicism”.

    Can you point me to this book?

  66. Michael says:

    What I see is that Warren cooperates with Catholics on issues that concern Christians.
    He respects their leader.
    I have never heard or read of him endorsing any Roman Catholic doctrine.

    Have you?

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This is so funny the blindness to the Roman church. I have grave issue with the RCC – but that aside, people will side with the Jews before ever giving consideration to the RCC.

    So here is the question to you Jess and I would really appreciate Mrs ODM chiming in.

    If you could be only one or the other, and you must choose – would you be a Roman Catholic or a Jew?

  68. Jess says:

    Michael, yes, because catholicism is not Christian. Catholicism, to this day, has an anathema on faith alone per the council of trent. That was never rescinded. So Rick Warren is working with devils, since faith alone in Christ alone without works, is the only way to be saved.

  69. Jess says:

    MLD, that’s a dumb and fallacious scenario. Likened to choosing to be shot in the head or the chest. Get real.

  70. Michael says:


    I didn’t know that you were either Reformed or a Lutheran…because almost al the rest of evangelicalism is works oriented as well.
    They just are blind to their own beliefs.

    I know some devout Catholics and Orthodox who love God more than I do…where are they hiding their horns?

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well here is the deal – when I ask this question, most evangelicals I speak with (and I am mainly talking of the Calvary Chapel types) by far choose to be Jews – time and time again.

    RCC does not reject Christ as do the Jews, but so many times, they will side with the Christ deniers.

    As I said, I have great issues with the RCC, and Trent being one of them) and I have issues with Warren just on basic man center religion – but I would never tie the 2 together – that is boogey man talk on your part.

  72. Jess says:

    Michael, I’m not reformed or lutheran. I’m just this boring guy that believes in Jesus and knows he has eternal life on that basis alone apart from all and any works.

    That being the case, I can’t agree that any catholic or orthodox loves God. Loving God would include agreeing with His statements about the Gospel. I am sure they are sincere and nice people, but being sincere and nice isn’t salvation.

  73. Jess says:

    MLD, both judaism and catholicism deny the Gospel. Anyone can have a false gospel and slap the name of Jesus on it, but it’s still a false gospel that cannot save.

  74. Kevin H says:

    I heard that Warren one time when he was staying in Rome, snuck out in the middle of the night and stuck his pinky toe into the Tiber.

  75. Michael says:


    Based on your definition no one was saved until 1517.
    You can claim that there were secret Calvary Chapel forerunners before that, but no real historian has found them yet.
    I am committed to Reformed theology as my foundation of understanding…but I know that Jesus can save anyone anywhere, even if they are in as much error as the Roman communion and you.

  76. Michael says:


    The key there…is that the toe never dried off.
    It’s like a second baptism…

  77. Jess says:

    That’s not true, about 1517, Michael. John the apostle who was used to write John 3:16, was saved that way, and that was way before 1517. 🙂 And countless millions with him between then and 1517 (and of course, countless many more before John 3:16 was penned).

    You rely on “church history” written by man. I’m just gonna go with the Bible and leave it at that, trusting that God gave me all I need there (yes, even without Calvary Chapel, gasp gasp) 🙂

  78. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I’m just this boring guy that believes in Jesus and knows he has eternal life on that basis alone apart from all and any works.”

    This sounds very Catholic and works oriented to me.

    Your salvation is brought about by your belief? You really believe that you can believe something into existence? That sounds non Christian and way too mystical for me. A Christian is saved because of the life Jesus lived and the death he died to cover my sins.

    So when you say it is through no works, but just your belief – you are wrong – it is based on works – the work of Jesus.

    I point this out only to make the point – a Roman Catholic may stumble over his words also in trying to explain how he is saved … just as you did.

  79. Michael says:


    You amuse me .
    John 3:16 refutes your claim.
    If Roman Catholics believe in Jesus they are saved.
    If John 3:16 is the whole of the Gospel, it says nothing about justification by grace through faith alone.

  80. Jess says:

    If you desire the meaning of John 3:16, Michael, then God blessed us with the rest of His Word. Romans 4:5. You can’t include any works. Catholicism includes works, therefore catholicism cannot save even one person. Again, the way is narrow, and few find it.

    MLD, believing is not a work. So I’m not traveling that reformed trail with you. 🙂

  81. Michael says:


    You just posited that salvation isn’t the work of Christ by grace through faith alone, it is based on believing proper doctrine about justification.
    Jesus doesn’t save, proper theology about justification does.
    I don’t think so…

  82. Jess says:

    Michael, what is to be believed is the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross in paying for our sins, and His resurrection, and His deity. That is what is to be believed, and yes, they are proper doctrines. Doctrine is all that matters.

    Catholicism attacks the finished work of Jesus Christ, by saying that we must add our works, so, catholicism cannot save even one person.

  83. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael hit it on the head. According to Jess, Salvation comes by his action — and that is perfectly in line with what Rome teaches.

    Btw, Jess – I am not reformed.

  84. Jess says:

    MLD, believing is not an action. But I had already stated that, and you passed it by, because you believe it is an action (no pun intended)

  85. Michael says:

    “Doctrine is all that matters.”

    I thought Jesus was all that mattered…not what we did.
    Your version of the doctrine of justification was unknown until the 16th century…therefore not one person could have been saved.

    I’ll bet you’re a big Rapture guy too…

  86. Al says:

    “There are a lot of people fully convinced of things that don’t exist.”

    Ironically, Atheists and Agnostics level that same criticism toward all of us who believe in a God Concept.

  87. Jess says:

    Michael, who is Jesus? I can’t know anything about Him, without doctrine. Doctrine tells me who Jesus is. He’s God, He died for my sins and rose again, He saves only if I believe without my works. You are, once again, falling into trust upon the words of man’s silly agenda-driven fake “history” to say that the 16th century was where this originated. Yet it’s everywhere in the Bible. It might not have been popular, but it is Biblical.

  88. Michael says:


    I do it this way…if you can confess the early creeds and confessions of the church, you’re in.
    You may have some aberrant theology, but you got Jesus right.

    That means I have family in every orthodox denomination.

    How about you?

  89. Bob Sweat says:

    “Both Judaism and Catholicism deny the Gospel”. Sometimes ignorance can add humor to my day. I too know Catholics who love the Lord. I once shared the platform at a high school baccalaureate service with a Catholic priest. He preached the Gospel to the graduating class better than any us Protestants.

  90. Michael says:


    Because you reject the study of history, you can’t answer these things with truth.

    Much of the population was illiterate during that time period and there were times when the Bible was not in every home.
    The people depended on the church for doctrine.

    The doctrine of justification by faith was by Luther in the 16th century…though there were uncodified echoes of it earlier.

    What you have done is taken away the power of the Holy Spirit to convert whoever Christ calls and given that authority to doctrinal reasoning.

    I reject that notion.

    You can’t because you choose to be willfully ignorant of anything other than your tradition.

  91. Al says:

    Another irony, if a person says they believe the bible….

    If you consider another person unsaved, then you are not to judge them according to 1 Corinthians 5:12 you are only to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

    I find it odd that most of the judging I see is of particular Sub-Groups claiming they have the right Jesus etc then judging the others they say are outside the fold. Well if they are outside the fold, according to the bible you are not to be judging them…only the guys under the Tent.

  92. Michael says:


    I think they would hold to a universal application of the “church” as well as the local body.

  93. Xenia says:

    I can’t agree that any catholic or orthodox loves God. <<<

    I will confess that I do not love God as much as I should and that I always struggle with loving myself more than I love God.

    How about you?

  94. Xenia says:

    See there? I little whiff of rage threatened me but I nipped it in the bud.


  95. Michael says:


    I was going to get outraged on your behalf, but I too nipped it. 🙂

  96. Al says:

    ” little whiff of rage threatened me” Haha

    Sinner! 🙂

  97. Al says:

    I got you both covered. I’m enRAGED!!!! Rawrrrrr! 🙂

  98. Em ... again says:

    hmmm… theology can get tedjous
    it isn’t believing in Jesus that saves one… not unless one believes that one is a sinner and in need of rescue from the condemnation that condition brings with it and sees John 3:16 as that remedy from a God Who is worthy… that’s where real life begins… IMHO
    then we move on from justification to sanctification and, boy, do we flail and flounder …
    whose fault is that?

  99. Michael says:

    I’m too tired…and we’ve been down this road too many times.
    I just can’t damn the entirety of the two most ancient expressions of the faith.
    I can damn some recent additions pretty easily when provoked though… 🙂

  100. Jess says:

    Whoa, that’s a lot of posts. The walls opened and the floodgates poured out! I’m clearly out of my league 😉 Well, I will leave you all to have salvation with works, without works, with believing, without believing, with doctrine, without doctrine, with one “church’s history”, with another “church’s history”, with one creed, with another creed, with one Bible, with another contradictory Bible………

  101. Michael says:


    I think you’re right.
    You’re out of your league.
    I do believe you’re “saved” though and we’ll all have stuff to be embarrassed about when we get home.

    I’m hoping the Lord allows Xenia to greet you if she gets home before you do…

  102. Michael says:


    One more thing.
    Please don’t run about talking about how you were persecuted for the truth…it really doesn’t wear well.

  103. Al says:

    Jess, how can I be saved for sure?

  104. Al says:

    Answer: No one really knows for sure. No one. It’s a mystery. We all “hope” we are, but when push comes to shove, none can articulate a sure path to salvation. If we engaged in a serious of questions and answers, that would become evident very quickly.

  105. Al says:

    Series of questions above not serious LOL

  106. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “but when push comes to shove, none can articulate a sure path to salvation.”

    I can – through Jesus who said that he was the way, the truth and the life and if you were going to see the Father it was going to be through him.

    Not that hard of a proposition.

  107. Al says:

    Ironically, it is the “I’m IN and you’re OUT!” crowd that seems to example the most Pride I’ve observed….when the reality is, those folks have a lot of faith in a System and Apologetic and when that System and Apologetic are challenged and shown to have big holes….they get very defensive and angry and don’t example any of the fruits of the spirit at that point and then have to become very intellectually dishonest to continue to defend their position and “lying” is also an abomination, as is “pride”.

    I just accept that it’s mystery, yet I hold some opinions. I try to save my strong conclusions for things like “the pastor had sex with his secretary, that’s wrong” clear cut stuff like that.

  108. Al says:

    MLD said, “I can – through Jesus who said that he was the way, the truth and the life and if you were going to see the Father it was going to be through him.

    Not that hard of a proposition.”

    We’ve well-covered that ground.

    Then I ask you what you have to do to be saved in that scenario, then you reply “nothing” and then when I challenge that statement further, you go into a “prosthetic arms” analogy that God gives you some prosthetic arms to grab hold of the faith you require for salvation etc.

    Then I deconstruct that analogy and then we go back and forth not agreeing and then the PhxP folks want to burn us both at the stake for ruining the blog LOL

  109. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    ““the pastor had sex with his secretary, that’s wrong” clear cut stuff like that.”

    Not so clear – what if his wife is his secretary?

  110. Al says:

    “Not so clear – what if his wife is his secretary?”

    Hahahahahaha you win the internet today.

  111. Rose In The Desert says:

    Nope. That Heretical Dove Award goes to Rick Warren. “Why?” you may ask… Well, keep reading!

    That guy is seriously a wolf intentionally. He has been responsible for:

    1. Calling true believers ‘the enemy of the 21st century’; fundamentalists who believe the main gospel points.
    ’21st century’ is also ‘code’ for the new era, if you know what they mean by that… it’s not good.
    2. That believers who hold to end times prophecy are ‘not fit for the kingdom of God,’ when it’s the total opposite, and he is not fit.
    (somehow that visual also emerges about the camel and the eye of the needle…. but there are about 100 other reasons why).
    3. He spearheaded the ‘Chrislam’ movement.
    4. He supports the pope and catholicism in general, called him ‘our pope.’
    5. Is in on the NWO ‘peace plan’ (false world peace) that will lead to antichrist, ties with CFR, Tony Blair, U.N., and related comrads that run in that circle.
    6. Supports all things contemplative, yoga, new age, all of that.
    7. Is totally ecumenical.
    8. Is against true biblical teaching, only twists scripture to fit his agenda. I think he also uses the ‘message’ bible (new age).
    9. Is into ‘kingdom building’ dominionism (denying Christ’s return as our solution).
    10. Purpose driven harlotry.
    11. If you go to the Lighthouse Trails website and the topical index and search for him, there is more, as well as volumes on the internet.
    12. There is so much more, I run into it all the time and can’t possibly list it all.

    By the way, all of this is available online via research for those brave hearts who dare.
    1. Humanity does not bring the kingdom, nor the church. We can’t! ONLY Jesus can and will bring the kingdom at His return. He is God, not us, nor does He need us to do His work for Him. We can’t without Him, not the other way around. Remember, antichrist comes first. Don’t fall for dominionism, it will be under antichrist. That is for those who stopped waiting for their bridegroom and take another who comes in his own name.
    2. Do not unite with false religion. That brings apostasy, not revival. Only Jesus offers the way of salvation. Catholics are not saved and need to be born again.
    3. Purpose driven and seeker sensitive are harlot movements because the results based motive is making $$$. Emergent is sinful because it compromises with sin. That defeats every good purpose a Christian has. It is also guilty of all items listed here.
    4. Contemplative is a masked term. Communion with the Lord? Great! But it won’t happen using occult practices from false religions of the east, such as mantras, yoga, breath prayers, etc. Repetition is banned, remember? “Do not pray as the heathen do…”
    5. It looks like someone needs to revisit their bible! The end is here, so don’t take the mark of the beast. Don’t deny Jesus in order to escape persecution or martyrdom, or He will deny YOU. Matthew 10; 32-33. It’s all elementary for those in the Word of God.

  112. Michael says:


    This is hysterically funny,but I’m too tired to mock it now.
    Give me time,though…

  113. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Rose – does your church practice open communion? If so, you and Warren would be communion buddies. How can you commune with someone you consider the devil?

    How can you stay at a church with such a practice? Do you see your dilemma?

  114. Em ... again says:

    Desert Rose, your brush is too broad and you are distracted from Christ as you search the ditches for dirt
    yes, the devil is busy, but we’re no match for him – the narrow way requires one to focus on our Lord
    enjoy Him and live strong in Faith … to metaphorize again – live Christ and be a light powered by Christ , not a flashlight

    just sayin – cuz that what i do here 🙂

    folks grow in Christ on this blog of Michael’s … some faster than others, but all grow here

  115. too funny says:

    Rose lays it out the warning in black and white and Michael finds it comical???

    Perhaps someone choking to death from rat poison in their coffee would make PP Comedy Central???

  116. Michael says:

    So, let’s review this fevered bleating.

    First we start with facts.

    Warren is a member in good standing of the Southern Baptist Conference and denies none of the historical creeds and confessions of the Christian faith, but affirms them.

    There has never been even a hint of scandal around the man who has handled more money than any other preacher in America…maybe in American history.

    His marriage seems to be whole and healthy.

    Now, the discussion should stop there, but it doesn’t.

    No, it doesn’t stop there because some people have differences that chap their panties over his emphasis and methodology.

    Those differences do not make him a wolf, they make people who call him a wolf an accuser of the brethren.

    Now, points one and two are misquotes but do capture something of Warrens emphasis. I happen to completely agree with him that those who are bound to their strict interpretations of tradition and focus on eschatology are really little more than negative pains in the corporate ass standing in the way of sound biblical interpretation and kingdom work.

    Point three makes up a movement to have something else to bitch about. We do have to share space with Muslims and people of other faiths, doing so with as much grace as possible isn’t sin.

    Point 4 means that Warren regards Roman Catholicism as an authentic expression of the Christian faith. Most grownups do.

    Point 5 is hilarious. Warren pursues peace. The alternative would be…?

    Point 6 is a favorite bogey man of those vested in ignorance. Contemplative practices are as old as the church, practiced by the church. The new age denies the creeds and confessions, so Warren has spoken against it. Yoga, like the martial arts, is what you make it. It can be a healthy exercise or a religious practice.

    Point 7 spits that he is ecumenical. I believe it was Jesus who prayed for unity in the church…

    Point 8 is a lie…he’s orthodox. The only lie he tells is supporting a pre trib rapture…

    Point 9 is the stupidest of all. He does not teach dominionism. He teaches what the Bible teaches…that the church is to be the advance army of the kingdom coming in it’s fullness. Check out Matthew 25, just for giggles.

    Point 10 a catchy insult without substance or meaning.

    Point 11…if you go to Lighthouse Trails your IQ drops by 20 points each time you visit.

    Back to a new #1… while you’re standing there scratching your ass “waiting for the bridegroom” and noting how holy you are, real disciples are out doing the works that are set before them. The key to kingdom living is to live like the King has come and we’re already in it.

    #2 I have grave differences with Catholicism. So does Warren. We still aim for unity where possible.

    #3 The motive behind purpose driven is actually to convert sinners and make disciples thus growing the church. I disagree with the methodology, but can’t condemn it. Especially when the old way was to hold a “revival” every fifteen minutes…

    #4 is just ignorant. Read a damn book once in a while…

    #5 is hillbilly theology at it’s worst. The end is upon us and if your behavior slips and Jesus shows up you are going to the eternal barbecue. No grace, no biblical understanding of justification, just fear based threats.

    Hee Haw!

    Now, I’m not purpose driven or porpoise compelled, nor am I a Southern Baptist or a Roman Catholic.
    I’m a Calvinist and I think you’re all wrong.
    However, Rick and even you silly hillbillies are brethren…and I’ll stop being snotty when you quit accusing the rest of the brethren.

  117. Kevin H says:


    Good job refuting all this silliness. I’m glad I haven’t had to spend all my time doing so.

    Your response to #10, “a catchy insult without substance or meaning”, can probably sum up the whole list, except most of the insults aren’t actually catchy.

    There is no substance to any of these accusations against Warren. No matter how many times it is asked, not one of the Warren heretic hunters even tries to provide credible evidence where Warren teaches or practices doctrines that are heretical to orthodox Christianity. They don’t try because they can’t.

    If charges like this could even be attempted to be taken to a court of law (or a church council, etc.), they would never even make it trial due to lack of evidence.

  118. Xenia says:

    Repetition in prayer is not banned, only vain repetition.

  119. Bob Sweat says:


    #116 – Thank you!

    Warren bashing gets old.

  120. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’ll never understand the amount of time spent defending Rick Warren here. Oh well. 🙂

  121. EricL says:

    When I see rants like Oakland’s or by Desert Rose, I’m reminded of Matthew 18: 21-35 where the Parable of the Unforgiving Debtor warns us not to hold a small debt over others when we have been forgiven so much ourselves.

    Why spend your days judging others so harshly? Do you not worry that Christ might do the same toward you?

    The picture that comes to mind is a huge crowd gathered at the foot of the cross and, instead of looking up at Jesus, these few folks are busy looking over the crowd and pointing out those whom they think shouldn’t be there, as if those others might sully our Savior. Quit looking around and instead lock your eyes on Jesus.

  122. Michael says:


    It’s not that hard to understand.
    If people want to give a methodological critique of his approach to church planting or point out that much of what is taught is rather shallow, I wouldn’t care.
    When he is declared a wolf and worse,then I care.

    I’ve talked to dozens of people about this guy…and they all say that he is very large hearted and truly loves the Lord.

    Some of us have been surprised when out of nowhere we get a note or phone call of encouragement from him or his wife.

    There is a lot about his empire that is worthy of criticism and open to critique.

    I don’t believe any of the things listed above meet that level of worthiness.

  123. Jess says:

    Michael, my “out of my league” comment was said tongue-in-cheek. That was the point of the wink. What you all created here is a religion. It’s a false religion, but it’s a religion. You put the name of Jesus on it, but it’s just a lie. You don’t have the true Gospel, and you (yes, I’ll use the word) persecute those that do have the true Gospel. I don’t expect to see a catholic or orthodox in heaven, unless they leave those false gospels and believe in the true Gospel. But according to your blog religion here, a person could believe virtually anything and be in heaven, so long as they say “Jesus”. The Bible refutes you, not that you or your religion care.

  124. Michael says:

    I’ll tell a quick story on myself.
    I have a friend I’ve been “evangelizing” gently for years,mostly unsuccessfully.
    He’s an intellectual type so I’ve bought him Calvin, the ESV Study Bible, Packer, etc.
    Nothing made a dent until he read the”Purpose Driven Life”….

  125. Bob Sweat says:

    The amount of time defending Warren is usually preceded by the amount of time bashing him! Give me a break!

  126. Michael says:


    You and your ilk are the most dangerous people in the kingdom.
    You have no “Good news”, no biblical Gospel, just a list of sins and qualifications that you have created to keep a wall around the kingdom.
    Heaven is going to be a huge surprise for you…

  127. Michael says:


    Thank you…you nailed it.

  128. Josh the Baptist says:

    It’s just the passionate defense the he always receives here that surprises. I think he’s a flawed guy with a flawed ministry that has led to much of what we don’t care for in modern evangelicalism.

    Not much different than most of the ministers discussed at this site, but they don’t get the same defense. Just interesting, is all. A little amusing if I’m being honest.

  129. Michael says:


    He gets more criticism than anyone.
    As I said, fair criticism is no problem.
    But the people that criticize him the most harshly also damn Xenia to hell and ban Eugene Peterson books.
    Warren is not a devil,nor apostate…while I don’t agree with a lot of his stuff I do know his heart is in the right place.

  130. Josh the Baptist says:

    I guess my thought is…what you gonna do? You can’t fix crazy. Some people will rant about anything and you can’t fix it. I doubt Xenia is losing sleep because crazy people think she is going to hell. I’d get it if the passionate defense was for Packer or somebody…but Warren? Hmm.

  131. Michael says:


    Did you happen to read through that ridiculous list of offenses?
    They bring these same charges against many decent men of God and they have to be refuted.
    I don’t know what your beef with Warren is, but I suspect it’s more substantial than that.

  132. Kevin H says:


    It would seem the passion to defend is to defend against unrighteous attacks, regardless of who the attacks are against. And since Warren seemingly experiences far more unrighteous attacks than any other modern pastor or Christian leader, it leads to defending him more than others. And since the attacks on Warren often include the deluded belief that he is leading Calvary Chapels astray, that often causes the discussion to end up on these pages.

  133. Michael says:


    What you said… 🙂

  134. Josh the Baptist says:

    “Did you happen to read through that ridiculous list of offenses?”

    Scanned them. Don’t have time for ’em. Can’t fix crazy.

    I’ve argued my beef with Warren for years. I don’t get why we slam evangelicalism for all the things we hate about it, but then defend the poster boy to no end. I’m not upset about it. Just an observation.

  135. Michael says:


    I defend him against the attacks that are completely vacuous and frankly, disgusting.
    Such false claims distract from any real issues that there are.

    We would be wrong to allow such to go on without question in regard to anyone.

    Hell, I had to defend Heitzig once against these jackals…Warren is my blood brother compared to him…

  136. Michael says:

    Then there’s this;

    “I know you guys probably wont post this but it shows that many on here are really the harlot daughters of the Catholic Great Whore. You guys are false Protestants. The great reformers even believed the Papacy was the antichrist .

    I don’t care what Michael or MLD says, they are both liars and reprobrate concerning the faith. Catholics who worship or pray to Mary or any Saint are idolaters and JESUS said Idolaters will not inherit the Kingdom of Jehovah.

    All you have is Gnostic Contstintinian Christmas Christianity. Catholicism is a doctrine of devils and always has been and i notice that MLD and Michael always defend their mother. It figures, you guys are unchrist like in your behavior towards others. That’s what happens when the founders of your faith are murderers. You guys are simply watered down Catholics. The Roman Catholic Church was never the true Church. You guys have changed the truth of God into a gnostic 3 in metaphysical god. You guys deny the literal Sonship of Christ making you antichrist according to John the beloved disciple of Jesus . Your pagan trinity dark mysterious 3 hypoatases persons in one eretheal substance god destroys the personality of the Father and the Son. You liars promote consubstantiality of the three persons which the bible never teaches.”

  137. Kevin H says:

    Hey, well at least that person wasn’t attacking Warren. 😉

  138. Michael says:


    Good point… 🙂

  139. Em ... again says:

    i’ve said this before, but Lighthouse Trails is an awkward moniker… boaters know that the lighthouse is there to tell you, “don’t come close here” … our Lord, on the other hand, is a Light to focus on and move toward… i’m resisting expanding the analogy 🙂

    when i was a small child there was a war going on – our way of participating was to draw chalk faces of Hitler and Tojo on the fence and throw mud balls at them… the grown ups didn’t do that

    just sayin … again

  140. Josh the Baptist says:

    Michael @ 136 – My point exactly. That’s not the argument of a healthy person. You aren’t gonna fix that by engaging them. Just laugh and move on.

  141. Bob Sweat says:

    My moving around over the pat 5 years has led me to be active in the following denominations: Quaker, Calvary Chapel, Church of God (Anderson), Mennonite Brethren, and now Conservative Baptist. They’re all flawed to some extent! Before MLD chimes in, I haven’t tried Lutheran. 🙂

  142. ( |o )====::: says:

    boaters know that the lighthouse is there to tell you, “don’t come close here”


  143. Steve Wright says:

    Don’t know about Oakland or Warren but the forum’s lighthouseology could be better. 🙂

  144. nathan priddis says:

    I am posting this link because it pertains to portions of the above thread regarding Catholic / Evangelical ecumenical efforts.

    Donald Trump is having many unintended results. I continue to say he is a truck bomb in the Evangelical neighborhood.

  145. Steve Wright says:

    Catholic voters are divided along racial and ethnic lines. White Catholic voters are closely divided but lean toward Clinton (44% Clinton vs. 41% Trump), while non-white Catholic voters overwhelmingly support Clinton over Trump (76% vs. 13%, respectively).
    The Washington Post story buries this pertinent fact – even as they refer to that poll in their latest screed. One has to click a little to get to the details.

    Sounds to me less like a “Catholic” issue and just more of the same ethnic issues. (From a different article)….The Pew study continues to find that Hispanics are overwhelmingly Democratic (56 percent Democrat versus 21 percent Republican). The numbers for Catholic Hispanics are almost exactly the same (58 percent Democrat versus 21 percent Republican).

    And of course, the percentage of Hispanic Catholics as part of the totality of the US Catholic population continues to grow along these lines.

    I’ll give Bezos his props though – fighting the good election fight. Anyone else ever wonder why the CEO of Amazon felt the need to buy the Washington Post a couple years ago???

  146. Al says:

    “Anyone else ever wonder why the CEO of Amazon felt the need to buy the Washington Post a couple years ago???”

    I know, I know! (In best Horshack voice).

    B/c Bezos is an uber-Elite Rich PC Liberal who wants to steer the election to fit his Liberal Oligarchical Globalist Agenda?

  147. Al says:

    As far as the “Great Whore” thing….everyone under the Christian Tent is a Great Whore to one degree or another. I call b.s. on all of you/us.

    The Catholics have their issues, this Pope is Mr. Social Justice Warrior and interjects himself into politics….while hiding behind a HUGE WALL, surrounded by a lot of men WITH GUNS protecting his rich powerful liberal ass….and hoarding BILLIONS that the Vatican owns and controls.


  148. Al says:

    ….at least the Pope isn’t protecting Child Molesting Catholic Priests anymore…I hope.

  149. nathan priddis says:


    The racial divide you bring up is a good point.

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