Linkathon!
Beth Moore leaves Southern Baptist Convention…I love Beth Moore…
In defense of Christian ritual…
Why Seventeenth-Century French Noblemen All Looked Like Grandmas…
Pray to God for protection, then praise Him for your mask…
As a pastor I pray my flock comes back. As a religion demographer I’m more realistic.
Tim Keller reviews book on Christian nationalism…
More scandal on Gospel For Asia…
When can contemporary Christians diverge from traditional Christianity?
“Prophet” who said Trump would win ends ministry…
Do Christians confuse blessings with success?
Minister loses license for endorsing Biden…
Lessons from the parable of the ten bridesmaids…
More later unless there’s not…
An interesting Linkathon to say in the least.
1. Regarding GFA problems, I would not be surprised if an extradition request is made to the US to bring PK back to India to stand trial for all kinds of financial fraud. He has been currently hiding in the US.
2. Regarding Milo, this a just another desperate stunt for attention and relevancy. No one really cares anymore now that Trump and his cult are no longer in power.
I am very proud of Beth Moore. I love her Bible studies – they are some of the best studies I’ve ever done. It must have been hard for her to leave , and I’M sure that many other women will leave with her.
Thanks, CM…we try to find things to think about…some weeks are better than others…
Beth Moore…never was a fan until I started following her on Twitter.
She is a wonderful Christian sister…courageous and gracious…
CM
So if a public figure says that he’s a believer and is doing all he can to live according to his faith, if you disagree with his political stance and his, albeit rather outrageous, delivery, it’s nothing but a stunt for attention?
Remind me not to ever share any triumphs God might be working in me here. I would hate to have it thought of as just a way to get attention.
Beth Moore. Like her. Always have, always will. Over at the Christian Post…all her detractors are men.
Why is that?
(probably a rhetorical question more than anything else).
I listened to Milo a couple years ago and his dis-ease with himself was palpable. It was clear then that he wanted another path.
Someone will definitely care. He’s able to manage himself. After all he poked the bear every time he spoke.
DFG,
Good one! I’m sure there’s no connection.
🙂
Good collection of links Michael.
I liked Tim Keller’s review a lot. The book he reviewed does a great job of breaking down the whole CN thing. I think folks on all sides will find a surprise or two.
Also, please pray for Rev. Keller. He has pancreatic cancer.
Thanks, Dan!
My wife and I left the SBC over women in ministry and the charismata. The week I left an aging church member handed me a note:
“Rebel! Heretic!” a thing to flout,
They drew a circle and put me out
But live and I had the wit to win
We drew a circle and put them in
Beth Moore was one of the best preachers the SBC ever produced.
*love not live 🤷🏻♂️
Everstudy,
Two things about Milo.
1. Trust but verify.
2. The cynic is me says his whole gay thing was an act to begin with. Perhaps as a way to give him cover from the bomb-thrower that he is. He claimed to marry a black man in Hawaii a few years ago. No one has seen or heard from this “husband” since. Did it even happen? His whole act seemed to be performing effeminate gay stereotypes. In which case, that is as fraudulent as the white lady who pretended to be black a couple of years ago.
Keller’s review is worth the price of admission… The book he reviewed is flying to me as I write.
What would make for an interesting conversation regarding Beth Moore is whether it was her theology (and I include in that her view (based on the Bible) of what a woman may or may not do regarding teaching and preaching) or her opposition to Trump that caused the most indignation in the SBC, which seems to have driven her out. In other words, are faith leaders and influencers judged more by their theology or by their politics amongst a Christian convention? What weight should a Christian conventions give to each of these elements? What’s more important? What is relevant to the evaluation of a Christian teacher and their teaching?
Beth has always claimed to be a complementarian, and always got pushback from certain men in the convention. After Trump, the pushback amped up in a major way.
I don’t blame her for leaving. I’m barely hanging on.
Josh and Jean,
As I understand it, Beth Moore has always agreed that with the SBC in that pastors and elders are for men only and that women are not to be in positions of leadership of the local church over men.
Milo has always been so over-the-top playing the alt right troll, I couldn’t help but wonder if it was all an act – just another way to get attention and publicity. There’s money to be made being a ” shock jock” in America today. Perhaps this is just another attempt to “shock” his audience. Time will tell.
The article about the 21-year-old minister losing his license and position at his church because he supported Joe Biden for President was very sad! I could see something like this happening at many Calvary Chapel churches as well. One reason we finally left Calvary Chapel after being members for over thirty years was because of such intolerance towards anyone who wasn’t a conservative, far right, Republican. Beth Moore, this poor young minister, – they’re kicking so many Christians out of their churches there soon won’t be anyone left!
Relevant Magazine participates in clickbait for readers then actually helps Johnson with his rebranding by hyper linking the new schtick. Pretty shamelessly babylonian.
Pray to God for protection (the CT article)-If I lived my life the way some anti-maskers say we should, then:
-I wouldn’t wear a seat belt.
-I would stop taking my medications (I take the same ones a lot of older people take)
-I wouldn’t worry about can goods that bulge or bottles that look like someone drank from them at the grocery store.
-I wouldn’t lock my doors…
I could go on, but we all take certain sensible precautionary measures everyday. And, we add or take them away as we learn more about life and how to be safe. It’s one of the reason we live longer than our ancient forebears.
I am planning on a “soft” return to church this Sunday since my county is doing better and has moved up a couple tiers (here in CA). The church is following the county guidelines (finally), but the lead pastor had quite a bit to say about masks in last Sunday’s sermon (we don’t know which one to wear, all the competing info, why do people wear masks while driving?-because it’s easier to arrive masked to some places than to fumble around and find it? Is it any of your business?). I’ll sit quietly in the back and smile, and see if I can really stay, or if it’s time for a change. I love them and I have much invested there, but I don’t want a harangue when I walk in with my double mask (for all kinds of CDC reasons).
Great points, Linn.
Along the same lines —
You wouldn’t obey traffic lights or really, any cautionary items on the road (speed limits, etc.)
BOC: Do you really think any CC pastors aren’t on board with Trump, etc? I’d think the peer pressure from pastors and those in the pews would militate against any “deviation from
orthodoxy.”
While there is wild-eyed speculation of Trump making a comeback, I think its time to rebrand this movement from Trumpism or even Christian nationalism, to ultra-conservative protectionism. While the the numbers seem to be hard to accurately identify, there are some evangelicals, or post-evangelicals, who do not identify with Christian nationalism, Trumpism, or (as Beth Moore referred to) Bidenism. The net has been too broadly cast.
There are still some conservative voices who are balanced and need to be heard. Beth Moore is one of them. Let’s not allow her to be recast by those who would seek to establish her as the next poster girl for causes she would not endorse. God bless her and keep her.
Winston Marshall is ‘taking time off’ for the harm he has caused by promoting Andy Gno’s book about the danger of ANTIFA.
Apparently he’s deeply sorry but time out seems to be essential for his rehab.
Reminds me of an equally egregious ban that’s exposed in this linkathon.
Beth Moore. She finally heeded the words of Johnny Mac and went home. She left the nest that was increasingly obviously not home & moved on. I am so happy for her. May her tribe increase!
Chris Hogan, brought [himself] down as the heir apparent to Ramsey Solutions. What’s more interesting from the article, leaving a lot of room for interpretation about which we do not know, is that his wife seems to have balked at Christian (patriarchal, likely) reconciliation. Too bad, as he helped a lot of people. So did Ravi Z. So did [insert a lot of people, minus Pepé Le Pew].
Rand Paul Saddened to see Government Flagrantly Helping People
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/rand-paul-saddened-to-see-government-flagrantly-helping-people
With reference to Winston Marshall, he was not in any way banned. In an adult and civil manner he apologized for an endorsement of Gno’s book that he regretted. This is not “cancel culture”, it is simply taking responsibility for one’s words.
“Over the past few days I have come to better understand the pain caused by the book I endorsed. I have offended not only a lot of people I don’t know, but also those closest to me, including my bandmates and for that I am truly sorry. As a result of my actions I am taking time away from the band to examine my blindspots.
For now, please know that I realise how my endorsements have the potential to be viewed as approvals of hateful, divisive behaviour. I apologise, as this was not at all my intention.”
“He was not in any way banned”
Andy Gno is an actual brave man and Marshall’s retraction and apology demonstrates exactly how brave Gno is.
I was 100% sure I’d wake up to a surgical counter to my claim.
Has PP become Portland Woke?
Intimidation is a hellishly effective chokehold
I don’t think we’re woke…we all just have different perspectives.
I confess that I had no idea who Marshall was before this.
I followed some of Gno’s work during the Portland mess…and I think he should have had a wider audience.
No, not woke. Part of my academic work is that of a textual critic, a mainstay of which is that, in the first instance, words mean what they say. I simply accept that Marshall means what he says, without placing my own bias or expectations on the text. All I can know is what he has written. All else is surmise and speculation… There is nothing about being banned.
Ok I will play
“Congratulations @MrAndyGno. Finally had time to read your book. You’re a brave man.” with a picture of the cover of Unmasked. Gno is a brave man who has been the actual victim of violence for his investigative reporting about Antifa.
The remorse tweet posted by Duane is written in a near form style; Self-humiliation that has been repeated hundreds of times… a publicist likely formed it… yes I know I am speculating… that gets done here all the time. So I am admitting it. But the intimidation on this is not even thinly veiled.
He’s been lampooned over being a banjo player — that has all kinds of racist overtones you know.
Look he is in a band the- Twitter mob trended him… the band was in danger, real danger, that threatened their income… the twitter mob was clear about it.
So he ate his hat, flagellated himself, went to self-imposed exile …
Someone please educate me… how was his speech worthy of what he is enduring? Andy Gno is a brave man and his work is important and the mainstream press won’t do it because the left wing protests fit their agenda.
The lines of battle are clear… if you criticize Antifa as Andy Gno’s book does then you are a fascist. That is the mantra. Winston Marshall partnered with fascism by praising Gno for courage and implicitly endorsing his book.
Marshall is part of a band that needs public praise and cannot countenance public reproach. The math is simple. Winston, was actually very precise and careful with his tweet. It wasn’t enough. Total submission is the requirement.
I will be buying a hard copy of Gno’s book before Amazon can ban it. Amazon is now the arbiter of what you are allowed to consume. They have put their toe in the waters of censorship and they like the taste. It will increase.
Yes, you are speculating…
…. And you’re being hyperbolic in reaction to your own speculation. Is it possible to take Marshall at his word, or do you have some sort of “inside knowledge”?
Someone here told me about ducks a few weeks ago
BD
Love you, my friend, but I refuse to couch everything as a “battle” implying winners and losers. All life is not binary. There’s a great deal of nuance. In the first instance, however, we should try to take people at their word, unless there are compelling reasons, proof or evidence to do otherwise.
Duane
I am feeling the love in your sweeping characterization of my everything. It is almost too much to bear.
Here an interesting take on Beth Moore’s departure from SBC and to some of the reasons why (warning: some harsh language):
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2021/03/10/beth-moore-leaves-the-southern-baptist-convention-what-does-this-mean-the-convention-is-dying/
I looked at the reaction to Marshall yesterday.
The band had a shelf life of about 15 minutes (depending on the market) without the retraction.
On the other hand, I just got an email from Ted Cruz offering me a Dr.Seuss book for a donation of $60.00…
I do think Ngo overstates the impact of Antifa.
I think me and a bunch of my friends from high school could have solved whatever problem they are in about 15 minutes…they were allowed to do what they did.
They didn’t stay long in my town last summer…
BD
“It is almost too much to bear.”
I would guess that would be the case 😁…
The ‘interesting take’ in the Beth Moore link is that you cannot be a christian and a southern baptist. The blogger espouses the claim that the stain of the SBC founding is irremediable.
It is a continuation of the fundamentalism the writer is trying to refute. He is still a fundamentalist with different fundamentals.
And I will reiterate that there is a brand new secular fundamentalist religion sweeping our nation and it is very subtle … even nuanced. 😉
BD
You might find this of interest…
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/america-politics-religion/618072/
Very interesting indeed.
Duane,
That Atlantic article is incredibly insightful and contextual. Thanks for sharing it.
A fundamental with different fundamentals…. LOL
When we lived in Kansas, we joined the So.Baptists – seemed more like Southern Presbyterians to me… with the exception of the amount of water used…. Always felt like a sprinkle of water wasn’t enough. It wasn’t for our Lord… Different dispensation? 😇
Jean
I heard the author interviewed and found his take on the issue compelling.
“This is the danger in transforming mundane political debates into metaphysical questions. Political questions are not metaphysical; they are of this world and this world alone.”
“Always felt like a sprinkle of water wasn’t enough.”
Wasn’t enough for what? What do you think the quantity of the water used signifies?
Luis Palau has passed…
RIP Luis
What does an immersion baptism signify? To me it indicates humility. Does the amount matter? God knows, i don’t.
Michael,
Wasn’t Luis Palau based up near where you live?
😔 Such a humble man and he helped so many
“Does the amount matter? God knows, i don’t.”
Last time I checked, the text still said, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” If it is by grace, then it is not by your humility.
Listening to MacArthur and friends mocking Beth Moore..
If I was her husband..male relative…whatever…I’d be really pissed at the stuffed suit attendees of the Conference.
Yes, Jean saved by grace and faith in that gracious gift.
How shall we escape if we neglect so great a price paid for it
Water doesn’t save, just testifies to the world what we have chosen to believe what the obedient sons death bought..
Nathan,
If I was Beth Moore’s husband, MacArthur and his friends should be worried that they don’t get the sh*t beaten out of them.
Johnny Mac is a bully and increasingly strident. Too many give him credence. His moon is waning.
Beth Moore’s star is still rising…
Em,
“Water doesn’t save, just testifies to the world what we have chosen to believe what the obedient sons death bought..”
I won’t argue with you or try to convince you, but there is not a single jot or tittle in Scripture for your view. The contrary position, on the other hand, has more Scriptural support than almost any other doctrine in the Bible.
When push comes to shove, your view of Baptism requires the rejection of the plain meaning of every teaching of Baptism in the NT.
CM,
He was based in Portland…other end of the state and a different world… 🙂
CM, Thank you for the Link to the article on Beth Moore. I have been following her story and I have admired her long before most people even knew who she is, but I learned even more about her importance to Christianity and how hard she is working to defend Christian values and principles from the article.
Jean, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit [not tongues], the new birth?
I’ll just leave this hanging, trusting God the Holy Spirit to edify us all………..
Michael,
At least you and Luis were in the same state and time zone for that matter. 😀
I think Pat “Word of Knowledge” Robertson has gone off the deep end.
Of course, many of us probably thought he did that many yeares ago.
“Pat Robertson declares that President Biden has senile dementia and that the U.S. is now under the control of two women (Kamala Harris and Nancy Pelosi), which is a sign of God’s judgment” (RWW)
bob1,
Methinks it is Pat Robertson who has senile dementia for the past 10-20 years. Speaking of Robertson, here is a gem from The Babylon Bee (before it jumped the shark about 2-3 years ago):
https://babylonbee.com/news/co-host-forced-to-tranquilize-pat-robertson-during-700-club-taping-again
Interesting read in the Atlantic, but he stopped too soon. It’s not just politics that have replaced religion, it’s science. Where I work, the label “climate denier” is tantamount to being called a heretic. God forbid someone would not want the vaccine as it is based in “science”. Science, however, exists in the echo chamber of “peer review”, where dissent is not tolerated. This is a slippery slope.
Linnea,
I agree there are issues with the peer review process, but at the same time science advances by repeatability of experiments and verification by those in the same field. The peer review process is part of that.
The problem is that American evangelicism used to be science affirming in many ways, but has gone very much anti-science, anti-intellectual, and anti-scholarship in recent decades. For many churches and Evangelicals the litmus tests for one’s salvation has apparently become the following (in no particular order):
1. Pre-Tribe Rapture
2. Youth Earth Creationism
3. Anti-Vaxxer
4. Anti-Masker / COVID hoaxer
5. Support for GOP / Trump
6. Election Fraud
7. Q-Anon
I am sure there are others.
Thi
https://religionnews.com/2021/03/12/allergic-to-religion-conservative-politics-can-push-people-out-of-the-pews-new-study-shows/
A book that I would like to suggest for all is ‘Morality, Restoring The Common Good In Divided Times; by Lord Rabbi Jonathan Sacks. It speaks to much of what is being said here on the blog of late, and I found it to be a book of real thoughtfulness and one that leads to some deep thinking of all these issues facing us.
Michael,
I will have to read that article. The word “allergic” caught my attention quite strongly, as that is how I sometimes feel around or when confronted with the trappings of Evangelicalism. This isn’t fake or being overly dramatic. My faith isn’t the same it was 15 years ago when I was a doormat steeped deeply in Evangelicalism.
CM,
When I became a believer, here is the litmus test that I was confronted with
1. Pre-Trip Rapture
2. Creationism
3. Abortion and Gay Marriage
4. Voting for Republicans
Agree with you on some of the rest you posted, especially the Trump factor. Many a blog over the last year had innumerable posters claiming you were “against God” if you didn’t vote for Trump.
And it is dang certain that this aspect alone drives away those who are seeking. Why non-believers can see this clearly and believers are oblivious to it is downright puzzling and quite maddening.
And again, I am not a leftist.
Dan,
I think the YEC and the Pre-Tribe Rapture as “essentials” and litmus tests for salvation is due to the amalgamation of the Fundamentalists with the Evangelicals over the past few decades. By creationism, I presume you meant YEC only (no OEC or Theistic Evolution).
I am sure the YEC insistence drove you crazy as it did me.
CM-
You can’t get funding for your research unless you toe the line of the politically correct nom du jour. And, you won’t get past peer review unless you do the same. Have research that does not support the narrative? Guess what? You’re not published, even if your research is repeatable, which means your discovery does not make it into the compendium of scientific knowledge. Sorry, it looks like censure from start to finish.
From the Atlantic..
“This is because America itself is “almost a religion,” as the Catholic philosopher Michael Novak once put it, particularly for immigrants who come to their new identity with the zeal of the converted..”..
An emphatic NO!!!. Not like a religion, it WAS a religion. A New Jerusalem, brought from England and set on a hill in the eyes of all the World. And the faction that brought it was in a violent religious struggle against the Crown, and Church of England.
In Virginia, a separate type of immigration was underway, but equally religious and prone to aggression and dominance.
America was divided from it’s inception, even before the first enslavement in Jamestown.
Two quick comments.
Firstly, I’m pleased that the article in the Atlantic provided something of interest. The author, in my opinion, articulated much of my thinking these days. Essentially politics has taken on quasi-religious meaning in many people’s lives. A different point of view offends not a political sensibility which might engender healthy debate, but instead provokes quasi-religious outrage as if it was an attack on a core religious belief.
Secondly, the book by Jonathan Sacks is solid gold…
CM, this evangelical says the planet is ancient, but God’s preparation of it for this drama we are involved in isn’t!
Pre trib raptue? The wise and foolish virgins might apply… Dunno…….
The rest of your list? Personal preference…
CM and Em,
YEC jumped the shark, in my view, when some claim that satan planted fossils in the ground to confuse us about the age of the earth.
So what constitutes the Bee jumping the shark? That they lampoon everyone freely? Late night comedy leaves a lot of comedy material unused.
BD,
That is not true. They used to be an equal opportunity offender until about 2018. But then the Bee was bought by a big-time Trumpista supporter and the Editorial Chief was the same. By 2019 and especially 2020, they hardly satirized Trump at all compared to previous years (even though there was no lack of material). This new ownership and their political allegiances is well known.
You obviously haven’t been paying attention.
Dan, those fossils sre evidence that there was life here before God decided to put us here… that’s all.
Could be Satan designed what he thought compared with what God can do?
Dunno
Scripture says what God has prepared for us is beyond our comprehension now…. I’ll just wait and see somewhere down the line
The Babylon Bee USED to be funny and USED to lampoon EVERY entity in Christendom. Chick-Fil-A and Chris Tomlin, for example, were frequent targets, and it was all in fun.
Those days are long gone.
I stopped reading the BB the middle of last year because their humor was getting strange, and they were seeking fincancial support for some weird causes. Now I know why.
I ended visiting the BB website when they posters were making fun of Stacey Abrams weight. They were brutal too.
Dan,
Agreed. It is used to be witty, funny, and very much an equal opportunity offender. But then it jumped the shark. The humor became much more juvenile and far less witty.
Though in a strange way they were prophetic (and much more accurate than all those so-called prophets (profits?) who predicted a Trump win last year):
https://babylonbee.com/news/first-baptist-dallas-members-melt-golden-jewelry-towering-donald-trump-statue
Turns out that giant golden statue of Trump really did show up at the most recent CPAC….
CM,
Yes, sadly prophetic it was! Just goes to show you who indeed suffers TDS.
Well that settles it the Bee is cancelled until the take time out to consider their blind spots.
Who wants to read a publication that only tells one side of things? That cherry-picks according to their corporate masters’ wishes?
Oh, wait…some do.
Let’s be honest…if there was a site that blasted Trump and Q crazies, half of us would have paid subscriptions…
I don’t like the BB…so I don’t read it.
BD,
No one is cancelling the BB any more than you no longer going to a restaurant because they changed the chef and now the food sucks. It is really quite simple. Of course I find all this outrage of evangelicals on cancel culture rather amusing since the have been practicing it for decades. Disney boycott anyone?
Em wrote:
“Scripture says what God has prepared for us is beyond our comprehension now…. I’ll just wait and see somewhere down the line”
I’m convinced that Scripture contains much hyperbole too.
So from that standpoint, I can imagine quite a lot in a new cosmos…
Muff Potter,
According to Scriptures, the entire universe and everything in it was affected by the Fall. This includes our imaginations, senses, etc along with all objects, atoms, energies like EM, Weak and Strong Nuclear forces, physical laws like gravity, etc. We therefore have no reference point to compare since all our reference points have been affected as well.
One does not use the Bible as a textbook on astronomy, astrophysics, geology, biology, etc. and it is not meant to be used that way (Tell that to the YECs and Ken Ham), so one can therefore see that God would not try to explain all the minutiae of this to a Bronze Age nomadic people (as in the first 5 books of the OT or even the classical Roman and Greek periods either.
Muff,
As a follow-up, while there is a lot of hyperbole and many Christians take things literally when they should not be and completely ignore the literary forms and devices employed in a particular section of text, there are some general things that can be shown. I don’t Moses was interested in how the Fall affected Planck’s Constant nor do I expect God bothered to tell him when Moses wrote the first 5 books of the OT. Same with Paul and his Epistle to the Romans.
CM.
I take the opposite view on hyperbole. Personaly, Planck’s Constant was probably the single biggest factor of many in arriving at this conclusion. I bracket this series between Newton’s prism/1672, and the emergence of The Holographic Principle/1990’s and onward. I now have an extremely literal take on Scripture, more or less.
Nathan,
Besides the true answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything is 137, not 42.
137 is the reciprocal of the fine structure constant, as you may know.
https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/number-137-physics?rebelltitem=3#rebelltitem3
CM @ 11:03
That is why we in the Faith need good teachers…..
CM. I really sticking to my guns. 42 is the missing theory of everything. It will explainit all.. The final answer is yes.
Actually…as much as 42 is dear to my heart..I don’t see it as a fundamental number to the existence of the Universe. Let’s call it’s purpose..purely ornamental. I view it as an omen as well I guess.
If one adopts the Holographic Priciple, a logical extension is the hologram is a product. If a product, then the operation of a system results in the product. The system would not be visible to any observer with a frame of reference within the hologram. The dimensions of the image and location within it would likewise be unavailable to an internal observer.
This system components would be capable of reverse engineering. The operating parameters, result in observable phenomenon described by Constants such as Planck’s. A field theory is ultimately discussing a 2D field or surface, the same structure that is used to hold information resulting in holograms.
” We therefore have no reference point to compare since all our reference points have been affected as well.”
No reference point?
All the sublime beauty of various human achievements in the arts and sciences is too tainted by the fall to serve as navigational aids?
I don’t buy it.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Muff Potter,
Let me clarify.
No reference point as in we do not have a Pre-Fall reference point.
Let me use the analogy of Imago Dei. According to Scriptures, humans were created Imago Dei before the Fall. After the Fall, it does not mean we don’t reflect that image, but due to the Fall, that image is distorted, not as clear, etc. Much like one’s reflection in a mirror that is cracked, curved (like a Fun House mirror), etc. This doesn’t means you can’t use it as reference point and as a navigational aid, but that reference point’s characteristics are NOT necessarily the original divine specifications and tolerances (+- a delta value) preceding the Fall.
Does that make sense?