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88 Responses

  1. Andy says:

    THANK YOU for exposing the “blood moon” nonsense. If John Hagee really believed that this was a Revelation event, then what happened to ALL of the events that were supposed to happen before it?

    For the record, I believe in the full prophetic understanding that Revelation is all yet future past chapter 3. And I believe in the pre-trib rapture, and the seven year tribulation of a one world government led by the antichrist, and Jesus Christ returning to establish a literal 1000 year Kingdom from Jerusalem.

    But the “blood moon” thing was just nonsense.

  2. Nonnie says:

    It seems people just “need” to get excited about something. Blood Moon, movies about heaven, etc, etc. I’m more moved by Trueman’s article or Steve Brown’s article. Sobering reminders of how difficult life can be, people are suffering, hurting, and yet, these are reminders that Jesus is victor.
    Thank you for these links.

  3. erunner says:

    I see no advantage to CCFL trying to control the narrative. What that leaves us with are leaks, people sharing their observations from having attended, and a whole lot of rampant speculation.

    It was disappointing to an outsider like me that BC didn’t and hasn’t directly addressed his church to confess his sins as he seeming had others do. My heart goes out to his family and those hurt. This feeds the fire that the church is filled with hypocrites more interested in fame and fortune as opposed to doing what the church is called to do. It also casts a bad light on those within and outside of CC that are doing things the right way.

  4. Nonnie says:

    I am guessing that the lawyers have taken over as to what is said and by whom at CCFL, by both BC and the board.

  5. Larry says:

    I can’t help but contrast CCFL’s media strategy with that of Gene Robinson, who revels in any publicity he can get.

    CCFL’s leadership needs to become more media-savvy without becoming self-serving publicity hounds like Robinson.

  6. Hagee’s Blood Moon stuff comes from the exact same place the rest of Rapture Theology comes from … out of thin air and people’s imagination.

  7. Here is something from the CCFL article that I think is telling.
    “Bob Coy, the founder and lead pastor,”

    What does this say about people who put on their literature and web page etc. – Founding Pastor”? Sounds pretty rank to me.

  8. Michael says:


    I’ve made that same argument to some at CC Ft> Lauderdale.
    The response has been that Coy’s privacy right is the priority.

  9. erunner says:

    Michael, it’s VERY hard for me to fathom that people in these positions don’t do what is best in these situations. They’ve been pretty silent and it just feeds the beast. And that never ends well. I do feel for those whose very livelihoods might be on the line here especially if they don’t have a fall back plan. That has to be scary. It’s also sad that one man’s decisions can impact so many others like this. Yet the more that comes out about church finances etc. it’s only going to get worse as people have ways to get to the truth of the matter and the last thing the body needs is another expose on 60 Minutes as opposed to any church not being forthcoming.

  10. Bob says:

    I think it needs to be pointed out the number one thing the “board” and “elders” at CCFL have to do is protect their income. This church is in grave danger of collapse so controlling the flow of info and essentially dropping the love guilt on the folks who attend might keep the funds flowing.

    Sadly BC was the center of those flows and with him gone CCFL is basically going to be a very small church a year from now.

  11. Michael says:


    I’m now of the opinion that we need “60 Minutes” to investigate this because the church won’t.

  12. EricL says:

    I think this might be CCFL in a few years:

    An AoG church in Winter Park, FL that has a 5,000 seat auditorium but only 650 members.

  13. erunner says:

    Michael, there didn’t seem to be too much defense of Bakker, Swaggart, and a few others when they fell. Are we reduced to only defending those in our respective ‘tribes?’ That is a sad commentary when we take satisfaction when some fall but look to excuse or minimize those in our own camps. We all need to examine ourselves in this from where I sit. If we aren’t willing to do that what exactly can we offer the lost?

  14. Nonnie says:

    If CCFL pulls through w/o BC, then it will show that it is more of a church than some thought. Hopefully, the church will become focused upon Christ, rather than upon the man on stage. That would truly be a win!

  15. Michael,
    “I’m now of the opinion that we need “60 Minutes” to investigate this because the church won’t.”

    OK, you caught my attention. The pastor was out diddling the ladies, the church fired him … what exactly does 60 min need to investigate?

  16. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    “THANK YOU for exposing the “blood moon” nonsense. If John Hagee really believed that this was a Revelation event, then what happened to ALL of the events that were supposed to happen before it?

    For the record, I believe in the full prophetic understanding that Revelation is all yet future past chapter 3. And I believe in the pre-trib rapture, and the seven year tribulation of a one world government led by the antichrist, and Jesus Christ returning to establish a literal 1000 year Kingdom from Jerusalem.
    But the “blood moon” thing was just nonsense.
    ^^^Minus pre trib rapture, I agree with everything you said. False Teacher John Hagee just made merchnadise of God’s people.

  17. Michael says:


    The church has not said he was doing as you say…they only will cop to “moral failure”.

  18. Michael says:


    The Bible nowhere speaks of a “seven year tribulation”.
    It says the tribulation starts at the midpoint of the seventieth week and continues for an undefined period until the coming of Christ.

  19. Michael,
    And why is moral failure vs adultery a 60 min issue?

    Are you thinking the moral issue is he stole the money?

  20. Michael says:


    There is so much smoke around this situation in so many areas that I have some real issues just letting it all go.

  21. But in the end it is not your issue or mine to even hang on to – let alone let go.

    Because we may want to know, does not mean we have a right to know.

    I have a right to not go to that church, and I may even have a right to tease about their troubles … but a right to know the details of what’s up is probably not within scope.

  22. Michael says:


    If it was simply a local church and not an international media ministry I might agree with you…

  23. You said you were concerned because they have not identified the moral failure. So is the scope that 60 min finds out what the moral failure was and moves on – or stay and turn over every rock?

  24. Dusty says:

    is CCFL the East Coast ‘mecca’ like the hot springs campus on the west coast iz…seeing how it looks and feels like Disney?

  25. Scott Barber says:

    “And he ascended into heaven/ From there he will come to judge both the living and the dead.” I have found this to be a good place to stop and get to work on other things…

  26. Michael says:


    That is wisdom…

  27. Michael says:


    That depends on what they find under the first couple of rocks…

  28. Michael says:


    I would think so…it’s the biggest out there.

  29. Sarah says:

    Michael, thanks for the link this week. I’ve been so swamped I haven’t been able to participate much here other than to read. I have hardly been able to write much.

    The whole CCFL issue is numbing to me. Frustrating, overwhelming and numbing. I am somewhat with MLD that I’m not sure there is reason to desire any outside source to investigate. Maybe they would be able to pull out the truth and expose it, but to what end?

    I’ve followed the discussions here this past week with a heavy heart…and yet we still have these moments where the Church shines. Truly shines. Where the Spirit alights and amazing things happen…simple, glorious moments. We can tear those apart as well and question motives and find faults…and we when the fallen one is one we love and treasure we can find mercy for them.

    We are not for the most part the best of judges, so I agree that Scott’s advice is probably wise.

    I just finished reading The Count of Monte Cristo. Interesting read when thinking of vengeance and mercy and judgment. One of the last statements of Edmond has stuck with me…

    ” Live, then, and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget, that until the day God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these two words, ‘Wait and Hope.”

    So much swirling in my mind these days, wish I had more time to sort it out. Thanks again for the link. Off to pick up kids from the tutorial and run to sports practices…

  30. Steve Wright says:

    Michael, I’ve been trying to write for several minutes a comment about “priority of privacy” and a pastor and just can’t put it into words without there being lots of room for misunderstanding.

    I guess I will just say that God’s people are always the priority for the leadership of the Body of Christ and leave it at that. The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve.

    I do have a question for you or anyone reading with insight. If someone at CCFTL missed the special service that afternoon a week ago, do they have any chance to watch the service now and hear Coy’s written announcement?

    I am trying to wrap my head around all the people who might have given his time, treasure and talents to the church, maybe for 20 years or more, who had the misfortune of being sick or out of town last week, being relegated to a press release and the sorts of remarks I keep reading on the church facebook page. It baffles my mind.

    This is a teachable moment and I am going to work with our Board to amend our accountability guidelines to make clear what the process will be in case of my termination or resignation when it comes to informing the church and the aftermath that would follow such a situation. And my “privacy” will not be on the priority list, I can tell you that.

  31. Michael says:


    That service and the Coy announcement are not available.
    I’m off to a job interview…I’ll check back later.

  32. a pastor says:


    “Sadly BC was the center of those flows and with him gone CCFL is basically going to be a very small church a year from now.”

    Maybe not such a bad thing, as long as the greater population of the congregation plugs in and is fed/led elsewhere.

  33. a pastor says:


    “But in the end it is not your issue or mine to even hang on to – let alone let go.

    Because we may want to know, does not mean we have a right to know.

    I have a right to not go to that church, and I may even have a right to tease about their troubles … but a right to know the details of what’s up is probably not within scope.”

    Ding, ding, ding…

  34. paigemom2013 says:

    Praying for the interview Michael….may God bless you and open doors for you, according to His best will and plan.

  35. Dusty says:

    for Michael…..hope it makes you smile

  36. Dusty says:

    Im taking an herbal medicine class this next month….nourishing & healing herbs is the first class. hope to take the other 3 in the series as they come up…im very excited.

  37. Dusty says:

    joining paige mom in prayers for Michael today. Open the doors/flood gates….

  38. Dusty says:

    this bird feeder has been fun…it is just outside my window and I get to see all kinds of birds. I have discovered if you feed the grackles they will let the other bird eat and even push seed onto the ground for the ground feeders. we get the same group of birds every day and a few new ones every now and again. The spring flowers have come up but we got snow last night and had to cover them.

  39. Dusty says:

    I meant to take the herbal classes a few years ago but something always came up each time they came around. I hope I do ok going by myself…Buster is driving me but I am not good in new settings and new people…maybe be I should wear my PP hat, I still have it, and use it….maybe it will give me courage. 😉

  40. Dusty says:

    didn’t even want to try to follow the conversation between MLD and Andy so I came over here….thought some others might join in, but here I am talking to myself – I do that most every day anyway….sigh….

  41. Dusty says:

    been going for walks around the new neighborhood. it is nice. have to work myself up again, seems .5-1 mile is all I can handle by myself. if it is warm enough when Buster gets home he and I will go for a longer walk…about an hour…with the wt. I put on from the meds that is all I can do for now, but I am hoping I can get rid of the wt -been eating right and doing free wts. – then we can go for longer walks. Sunday we did some trail walking in the woods..such fun…. we did about an hour…can’t wait to be able to do more.

  42. Dusty says:

    even today in the snow -cold- I went for my walk.

  43. Dusty says:

    getting better at being outside by myself. a little bit….

  44. Dusty,
    “even today in the snow -cold- I went for my walk.” In the Snow!!! It’s mid April.

    Move out here to SoCal – it’s mid 80s today. 🙂

  45. EricL says:

    Heh MLD,
    Don’t be so misleading. We still have snow in SoCal. We just keep it up on Mount San Gorgonio (11,000+ ft), where it belongs. You can still walk in the snow too, you just have a bit of a climb to get to it. 🙂

  46. EricL,
    Some clear mornings I can see it on Mount San Gorgonio while I jog in the OC

  47. brian says:

    Doug Phillips is a tool.

  48. Got a question for any amillenialists, MLD or BD, or even Michael, for a pre-wrath viewpoint.
    As you may know, I have no eschatalogical ax to grind.
    This whole blood moon thing is a bunch of hullabaloo about nothing IMO.

    What do you make of Joel 2:28-32 and Acts 2?
    Completely fulfilled at Pentecost? Partially fulfilled?
    It just seems to me that it wasn’t fulfilled fully at Pentecost because of the whole sun darkened and moon to blood thing.
    Also, for a lunar eclipse and a solar eclipse to happen on the same day is actually impossible without some type of cataclysmic event as lunar eclipses happen on a full moon and solar eclipses happen on new moons. So, they have to be 15 days apart
    I know these passages are usually associated with the Day of the Lord.
    So, in amillenialism is the Day of the Lord the actual day that the Lord returns?
    Or something else?

    I am just going to sit back and see the responses ’cause I am interested.

    Andy, I beg of you though. this is a question I actually would like an answer to without the endless questioning to defend pre-trib. Please keep that argument to the thread it is already on.

  49. Derek,
    As an Amiler, you may know, we see the millennium between the 2 advents. So this Joel and Acts language would be kingdom talk of what happens in that time frame. As tribulation and turmoil buildup, it will culminate with the activities described in the sky and the sudden return of Christ.

    The Day of the Lord is a single event that includes everything in Matt 25:31-46.

  50. So does the sun and moon thing happen on the Day of the Lord in the Amil view?

  51. Derek,
    “The sun shall be turned to darkness, dand the moon to blood, ebefore the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. ”

    Sounds like ‘lights out; to me.

  52. Xenia says:

    The link to the article about internet Orthodoxy is very good and oh so true! He writes about converts who have more online Ortho friends than real life friends from their home parish. I was like this when I first converted 12 years ago. My prayer list consisted almost entirely of people on the Internet. Now it’s mostly people I know in real life, mostly from my parish. I think this is a good thing.

    Hyperdox Herman and Grumpy Orthodox Cat….. IS OUTRAGE! 🙂

  53. CrucifiED says:

    “He is a false teacher whose false teachings could help provoke warfare and the deaths of millions of people unnecessarily—and will persuade millions of Christians to sit by gleefully, consenting to those deaths.”

    Really??? I’m no fan of Hagee or how he ruined an interesting conversation about the eclipses, and I was impressed with how well this fellow truthfully presented Hagee’s perspective before he argued against it, but I also get sick of preterists who say things like this about pre-trib believers.

    Whenever people from any theological/eschatological camp resort to more than resting in the merits of their argument and begin to say stuff like this, then I begin to lose interest in their message.

    I mean, come on, does this guy really think someone as insignificant as Hagee is going to provoke warfare and the deaths of millions of people apart from God’s sovereign plans. And to say such a horrible thing about the hearts of many Christians in our family, that they would gleefully consent to millions of deaths and lost souls.

  54. Xenia says:

    The link to Obama’s choice of pseudo-pastor to “pray” at the White House “Easter” service is revolting, but exactly what I expect from him these days.

    And let’s not forget that Hilary congratulated those blaspheming Pussy Riot women and told them they were soooo brave to desecrate Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow.

    These people have no fear of God.

  55. Derek,

    Acts 2 means Joel 2 is DONE… the pouring out the Spirit part has as a result that things will never be the same in humanity again. The moon and sun saying is an idiom. The last days were a signal of the end of old Israel not the end of the world. When God poured his Spirit out on ALL flesh it signaled an end to the exclusive hold of old covenant Israel on God’s favor.

    The new age would bring cataclysmic change and the inauguration of the ‘age to come.’ The day of the Lord is not the end of history but the end of Israel’s exclusiveness. Calling upon the name of the LORD is also for ALL flesh, and the name of the LORD is now applied to the Son as well as the Father. Being saved is not escaping hell but receiving God’s favor here and now.

    Yes this amil proponent is partial preterist.

  56. CrucifiED says:

    That is an interesting perspective you have there BD.

  57. Carl Trueman is a wonderful taste of classic but dude… breathe slowly in and out.

  58. Please Note says:

    Agreeing with Xenia 100%

    Dusty ….be careful with herbal medicine if you are taking Meds. Do a lot of research, as certain ones can thin your blood, thus increasing the effect prescription Meds can have on you. Others can increase or decrease the absorption rate of Meds, altering what’s called ‘the half-life’, essentially how long a med is in your system, which dictates the dosage and frequency of your script.

  59. CrucifiED …. I am 99.44% pure insanity. But I know it.

  60. Gary says:

    I’m waiting for a full eclipse of the sun. Then I’ll know Hagee is wrong.

  61. I am mystified by how often ‘evangelical’ or bible christians are completely clueless about the millions of Pentecostal/charismatic believers who do not live in their dichotomies.

  62. Let me say this for Hagee he is sensational entertainment for Bible preaching, innovative, passionate, nationalistic, heroes and goats, devils and saints, dramatic crescendoes, in your face confrontations, emotional climaxes and cocksure pronunciations. He is unmatched in the world of TV preachers. He is Swaggart with a cause and a clue. He is the champion of everyman and the terror of the bogeyman. I literally cannot turn him off sometimes. All that an a fat ugly package to lampoon. He keeps the advocate and the adversary busy. I hope he lives to be 100.

  63. Sarah and my wife are the only things stopping the zombie apocalypse. There is nothing as compelling as moral authority.

  64. CrucifiED says:

    I though the same thing BD, great subject by Trueman but could have shortened that one a bit.

    Your also agree about Hagee, even though I’m not on board with much of his theology, he is a thunderous preacher and its hard to not enjoy the sensations of it all. Kind of a heavy metal preacher. : )

    I don’t like the way he has handled this blood moon message but I don’t feel the need to claim the sort of things the fellow who wrote that article did. Provoking millions of Christians to warfare? Give me a break, now who’s being dramatic?

  65. Gary says:

    When the world gets between the believer and the Son you have a backslider’s eclipse- that’s something. But when the Sun gets between the world and the moon… WOW!

  66. Gary says:

    I’m listening to Hagee’s blood moon messages. He is a good speaker. Reminds me of Barnhouse in his delivery. *ducks*

  67. Gary says:

    Do any of you bible scholars know of any prophetic reference to the 1967 war? (The 6 day war)

  68. Dude says:

    Blood Moons…..Okay everybody now lets get out our bible prophecy decoder rings and lets begin….

  69. Gary says:

    For those who send in a gift to my ministry this month I will send you my thank you gift secret bible prophecy decoder ring blessed by me personally. Ring is adjustable. One size befits all. Next month’s thank you gift will be my secret bible prophecy map. You will need the ring to decode the map. Send me 2 gifts. 😉

  70. Gary says:

    Well, this Hagee guy is quite the motivational speaker. He’s more of a woofer than a tweeter.
    He makes a leap of prophecy and/or history insisting that this series of blood moons signifies Armageddon. My guess (guess only) is that it’s America that’s goin’ down in 2015. Nothing more.

  71. brian says:

    Hagee has played this note for decades and he has done quite well. He makes a good living ripping people off by selling end time clap trap. I cant stand the guy.

  72. Gary says:

    Tell me what you really think. This is the first time I’ve listened to the guy.

  73. brian says:

    OK Gary hope you are well but I will tell you what I think. Hagee is a tool, he harps on the latest end time, “gay agenda”, evil government, secular humanist etc note he can play. He picks out a text from the bible and goes into baptist mode and thunders. First his qualities, he is a very good speaker and he does know his bible, from what I have heard on a personal note he is good to his congregation and they do alot of good in their community on some levels. He has taken care of his family, he does not mess around on his wife etc. Honestly demands I say that, from what I can see.

    But he can take the simple black and white mode and is hyper Isreal and he does pull some political weight. I could harp on his weight and “gluttony” but I dont know his medical conditions and some folks are just big people do to genetics etc. I think part of him believes what he says but the other part does not because he is not a dumb redneck they guy is smart, which scares me because he should know better. But some theology just runs to deep.

    On a very personal note, Mr. Hagee gave a sermon on the grace of God and for that 40 minutes this man literally touched my very soul unlike many pastors have. He was hitting every note and he was preaching with faith and power. I will never forget that one sermon, it was profound. I hope that helps, I am trying to look for the good as well.

  74. Gary says:

    LOL! Baptist mode. Good one. *Thinking Magee, Falwell, Barnhouse* I like Hagee’s biblical and evangelical focus but he failed to connect the dots on this.

  75. Barnhouse was not a Baptist – he was Presbyterian. Also, he was an historical pre miller – which means he did not believe all the Jewish stuff that goes on in crazy Rapture Theology

    Hagee teaches the prime of American Rapture Theology – God got Jesus and his pesky church out of the way so he can now deal with his true Plan A. Even Hagee’s teaching that the Jews don’t need Jesus is just an alteration of regular dispy teaching of Plan A & Plan B.

    Hagee is just more clear … or honest about the position.

  76. Nonnie says:

    “Even Hagee’s teaching that the Jews don’t need Jesus is just an alteration of regular dispy teaching of Plan A & Plan B.” Seriously? He believes they don’t need Jesus? Can you quote him? I’m certainly no fan of Hagee, but that is quite shocking. How could ANY Christian believe that?

  77. Gary says:

    MLD uses the best bait in the vestibule.

  78. Nonnie – He says it’s because they have their own covenant with God

  79. It’s based on an everlasting covenant;
    Genesis 17:13 “He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.”

  80. erunner says:

    Has Hagee backed off of the Jewish thing as I had heard of this long ago? If he hasn’t that disqualifies him from being taken seriously right there as he has now perverted the gospel.

  81. Ixtlan says:

    Got a link?

  82. Michael says:

    “The Jewish people have a relationship to God through the law of God as given through Moses,” Hagee said. “I believe that every Gentile person can only come to God through the cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.
    “The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation. And God has not,” said Hagee . . .9
    “There are right now Jewish people on this earth who have a powerful and special relationship with God,” declares Hagee in one of his books. “They have been chosen by the ‘election of grace’ in which God does what he does without asking man to approve or understand it. Let us put an end to the Christian chatter that “all the Jews are lost” and can’t be in the will of God until they convert to Christianity! . . . there are a certain number of Jews in relationship with God right now through divine election.” 10

  83. Ixtlan,

    I don’t have his link and can only offer this anti Hagee link. But we discussed this here a year ago. We probably need to wait for Babs to come on, because if I remember correctly, Hagee often makes pilgrimages to New Mexico to fleece the flock over there.

  84. Thanks for the answers MLD and BD.
    One question to BD.
    Did you mean idiom or something else?
    If the sun and moon phrasing is an idiom, then what does it mean?
    Idioms usually stand for something, such as “a dime a dozen” for cheap or “go the extra mile” for going above and beyond.

    I have found your positions interesting.
    Me, I think the Day of the Lord, at least in the not yet sense, means the actual day Jesus returns. I think it is going to be a catastrophic sort of day in which everything is so upset that you could actually have a lunar eclipse and a solar eclipse on the same day. In other word the natural order of the sun and moon could be all messed up on that day.
    Don’t take this as meaning I am looking for any sign.
    I think all this stuff is simultaneous with His return.

  85. Steve Wright says:

    MLD – I think it is really wrong for you to say that dispensationalism teaches two plans of salvation. (regular dispy teaching is your exact phrase)

    You know it is not true. You know that Walvoord, Ryrie, Chafer, Unger, Pentecost, Swindoll or any other theologian connected to dispensational studies have never taught such a thing.

    Just quit it. Thanks.

  86. Gary says:

    I see a blood moon rising.
    I see trouble on the way.
    I see quakes and oceans rising.
    I see end times today.

    Don’t you doubt it’s nigh
    Well, it’s out for wolves to cry
    There’s a blood moon on the rise.

    I hear Hagee’s voice ablowing.
    I know the end is coming soon.
    I don’t know where he’s agoing.
    I see red filters on the moon.

    The man has mapped the moon
    but it’s apt to change real soon
    There’s a blood moon on the rise.
    All right!

    Hope you got your life together.
    Hope you are quite prepared to die.
    Looks like we’ll need to find out whether
    Credence is given for a lie.

    You know the end is near
    but that will change next year
    There’s a blood moon on the rise.

    Don’t you pay no mind
    for God is not the kind
    to make a blood moon on the rise.

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