Things I Think
1. Satan has been getting some bad press in the last week. According to Bob Coy’s peers and supporters the evil one is to blame for everything from Coy’s inability to keep his pants on to the fact that some people feel a responsibility to report on the results of his failure to do so.
Poor ol’ Bob is victim of the the devil and his henchmen, bad women and evil bloggers.
Bob, the victim.
What a crock.
Let’s get some things straight here.
Bob Coy is responsible for this situation.
The devil may have taken him to a high place and showed him the kingdoms of this world, but it was Coy who accepted the deal.
The devil made the offers, Coy took the deals…and God exposed it.
God.
The victims here are his family, the women he chose to share in his sin, and the congregation he failed.
Coy was the willing victimizer.
Period.
2. “But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit to be guilty of moral failure and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?” (Acts 5:3 ESV)
3. The mainstream and online Christian press is as bought and sold as the secular media. They will never write and publish a story that might affect ad sales negatively. God has to use bloggers who can barely pay their bills, but value the truth. I have yet to hear the peers and supporters of Coy ask for prayer for us as we do the work the hirelings refuse to…
4. “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife is guilty of moral failure.”(1 Corinthians 5:1 ESV)
5. Despite current cultural beliefs to the contrary, shame is a good and necessary reaction to sin. We have become a shameless culture and the church is following suit.
6. The biblical illiteracy in this country is astounding.
“Judge not!” the idolaters howl.
Paul said, “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.””(1 Corinthians 5:11–13 ESV). Jesus said, ““Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.”(Matthew 7:1–2 ESV)
Is this a contradiction? Hardly. I’ll let Calvin explain it to you from his commentary on Matt 7;
“We now see, that the design of Christ was to guard us against indulging excessive eagerness, or peevishness, or malignity, or even curiosity, in judging our neighbors. He who judges according to the word and law of the Lord, and forms his judgment by the rule of charity, always begins with subjecting himself to examination, and preserves a proper medium and order in his judgments. Hence it is evident, that this passage is altogether misapplied by those persons who would desire to make that moderation, which Christ recommends, a pretence for setting aside all distinction between good and evil. We are not only permitted, but are even bound, to condemn all sins; unless we choose to rebel against God himself,—nay, to repeal his laws, to reverse his decisions, and to overturn his judgment-seat. It is his will that we should proclaim the sentence which he pronounces on the actions of men: only we must preserve such modesty towards each other, as to make it manifest that he is the only Lawgiver and Judge, (Isaiah 33:22.)”
7. While I’m at it… “all sins are the same!” No, they are not…
“The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.” (1 Corinthians 6:13–20 ESV)
8. “I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority . So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.” (3 John 1:9–10 ESV)
9. In #2, #4, and #8, I took the liberty of correcting Scripture to make it more “biblical” according to current standards. You’re welcome.
10. When we deny the depths of our sins, we forfeit the full measure of the grace of God for them. If we do not fully confess our sins, we cannot fully repent…and that shame will linger instead of being washed clean by the blood of Christ. The discipline of God toward His children is always rehabilitative, never retributive…but when we refuse to fully repent or enable others to avoid doing so, we become our own jailers.
Contact me…phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
Good apologetics, Michael. May this bring healing to those experiencing the stages of grief at CCFL and CC in general. May this be a wake-up call to all Jesus followers to allow him to purify us. May this bring revival to CC that bears fruit.
let him who has ears hear what the Holy Spirit has said though this message this morning.
good morning big brother, may your day be full of wonder and joy. 🙂
Thanks Gary, thanks Dusty!
praying for you today Michael, may the Lord bring you favor in the eyes of all you meet. May you experience His grace and mercy in a new and bold way. Have a fun day 😉
Michael wrote: “The mainstream and online Christian press is as bought and sold as the secular media”
YES, thank you for saying it. The “Christian press” keeps the cash cow going. That is all it is. It doesn’t exalt the Bible. It exalts pathetic “Christian culture” and worship of men.
Great job also with fixing the Scriptures, so we can just say that everyone is guilty of a moral failure. Oops, I failed! Sounds better than the alternative.
Well-written piece, Michael !
The Biblical Illiteracy aspect never ceases to amaze me. I run into so many folks who never actually crack a bible on their own. All they know is what is told to them on Sundays, or whatever sermons they hear online.
How do they know if what is being preached is biblical without comparing it to scripture?
Again, the whole piece is nicely done and obviously very timely.
Thanks for all the hard work, especially of late.
Blessings
God bless you, Dusters.
Andy,
I’ve been utterly disgusted…these guys won’t touch anything that might affect cash flow.
PN,
Thanks my friend.
This gets back to what I’ve been harping on about people taking personal responsibility for their spiritual well being.
They choose to be spoon fed and love the spoon…
Dude,
It makes me really sad that you decided to adopt this tone. When this first broke, I defended you when I challenged my leaders with information you published. I find it difficult to believe that you’re for the healing of souls as the end game.
The guys don’t really get “healed” when the stuff is glossed over and defended. I think Michael is more concerned about Coy’s true healing than most of those I’ve seen from CCFL commenting how it’s not a biggie, God forgives, give him a mulligan or 10, etc.
I had mentioned that in my circle of people, I come across CC FL people all the time, people that had gone there in the past or currently go there. I had said, and I think it bears repeating, I had never found a more Biblically illiterate bunch of people that were from a (supposed) Calvary Chapel background. They all always told me how funny Bob Coy is, and could even recite funny stories he had told. They rarely knew even basic Scriptures that you would expect any Christian to know.
Bryon wrote: “It makes me really sad that you decided to adopt this tone”
Michael’s tone is right. There’s a festering, cancerous disease in “Christendom”, and Michael has the guts to say it. I’m sorry that you don’t care about that.
Michael, good post to those who would take a soft stance on Coy’s blatant sin. May I offer a few thoughts for discussion?
#9 — I think I understand your point per application, but am always uncomfortable to see someone refer to “correcting” scripture to make it “more Biblical”. 🙂
#4 — That’s a great point. Bear in mind, the command was in context of commanding that the offender be expelled from the church until repentant, for the purpose of their spiritual health and eventual restoration to the body– not trumpeting their evils to the world, and to everyone outside the church. Paul’s cares were for (a) the health and testimony of the church and (b) the spiritual health of the offender. I’m not sure how Paul would respond to someone in the church creating a website to air the church’s laundry to the world, while it is being dealt with internally, and the blogger having little to no insight into the offender’s state of repentance, nor the churches internal efforts at discipline/reconcile.
Since we’re quoting Paul, let’s consider the next chapter, 1 Corinthians 6:1-6
“1When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?”
Paul hated public court cases because (a) the local church should be able to work through things and (b) it was airing the church’s dirty laundry to the unsaved world and tarnishing the church’s testimony. He said this to their shame. I wonder what he would say about bloggers blasting the church’s dirty laundry before the unrighteous without understanding of the discipline/reconciliation efforts going on by the saints in the local church.
Since we’re quoting Paul here, let’s also consider 2 Corinthians 2, which many commentators believe Paul is speaking about the same offender being discussed in 1 Corinthians.
“But if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me, but all of you to some extent; not to be too severe. This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow.”
Bob Coy has been stripped of ministry, must reconcile his marriage, his children, families, etc… All indications are that he has repented. I wonder what Paul would say to modern bloggers continuing to attack him in the public media, to drag things on without insight into his heart, his response, or the efforts of his local church to discipline/restore. I wonder if Paul would tell us to shut up and let the church deal with it.
Michael, I’m not telling you not to report. I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m sickened and disgusted by what I have heard of Bob Coy’s actions. I have little personal insight into where Bob is in his repentance, nor what CCFL is doing. Perhaps you do; that’s why I am not saying you should stop posting. I’m just adding a bit more of Paul’s teaching when it comes to handling sin in the church, how it should be done, who should do it.
Galatians 5:15 — But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
Obviously, I agree with # 10 as well.
Blessings to you, brother. I am praying for your job interview.
Like I’ve said many times over…and thanks Michael for pointing it out rhetorically with the redactions from the bible verses in your article:
There are no true Fundamentalists/Literalists when it comes to the bible.
Everyone is a Liberal, theologically….and pretty much all of Evangelicalism are Selective Fundamentalists/Literalists…very specific and literal on verses they like “gays can’t marry!” (even though the bible doesn’t specifically say that)….but very Liberal when it comes to verses that fry their Pastor Idol.
a pastor wrote: ” I wonder if Paul would tell us to shut up and let the church deal with it”
No, Paul wouldn’t say that.
Paul already spoke, and really, the Holy Spirit already spoke. Expose evil, is the message. Bob Coy wanted a worldwide ministry, so he got it. And now the exposure has to be worldwide, because he went far outside the church walls.
Michael,
Good article. Quick question. Whats the deal with quoting scripture and then striking it out? Is that just a literally device to draw attention like making it bold, italicized or underlined?. Just seemed a bit odd to strike out scripture….
Bryon…..have you read some of threads here of late? 600+ postings where many are in denial that BC did anything wrong at all? Or the double standard that he held is own brother to, but did not follow himself? Or the selective-editing of scripture to continue to validate BC IN his sin, and to claim he should still be in the pulpit ?
“Have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them”–The Bible
“Those who forsake instruction praise the wicked, but those who heed it resist them.”–Bible
“I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people”–Bible
“But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning”–Bible
“Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.”–Bible
But that’s just the bible, it has a lot of competing narratives and that’s why those watching all this who actually have read the whole bible and keep it all in tension understand that you all really do agree that you can’t take the bible literally at all…and the good Christians* at Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale are demonstrating that for us in real time.
# 11 I think Mr. Mondok is writing tongue in cheek.
Andy: I appreciate your response.
“Paul already spoke, and really, the Holy Spirit already spoke. Expose evil, is the message.”
Yes, I quoted a bit of what he said about how and where it should be expose.
“Bob Coy wanted a worldwide ministry, so he got it. And now the exposure has to be worldwide, because he went far outside the church walls.”
Can you provide scriptural backing for that principle, that Bob Coy’s exposure and ridicule should be done globally due to the extent of his ministry? The Biblical view that I see of church discipline operates by the principle that it should be kept as private as the offender allows it to be, depending on when they choose to repent. I know it may suit our fleshly desires to see the more successful disgraced more publicly, but what does scripture say?
Besides… He has been exposed publicly. What scripture supports 3-7 blog posts per week whipping him, as he is being disciplined by his church?
Can somebody please provide the link to where Bob Coy repented of his ‘moral failure’? *not holding my breath*. Where is his statement?
a pastor wrote: “Besides… He has been exposed publicly. What scripture supports 3-7 blog posts per week whipping him, as he is being disciplined by his church?”
The Scripture doesn’t address mass media exposure, because it didn’t exist at that time. Everyone has to right to know that, who they were trusting in, was lying to them.
You turned into the typical Calvary Chapel pastor, in my opinion. No shock at all, to me.
We don’t know if he’s repented yet or not. We know he got caught and resigned, we do not know if he is no longer watching p0rn and time will tell if he’s done biblically knowing other women who aren’t his wife.
An apology should extend to all affected. That would include radio listeners.
RiBo wrote: “that you all really do agree that you can’t take the bible literally at all…and the good Christians* at Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale are demonstrating that for us in real time”
It’s a shame that the one that doesn’t take the Bible literally, is one of the main people that gets it.
Bob Coy embarrassed others for their “moral failings”. But when it’s him, he disappears.
RiBo: Thank you.
““Have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them”–The Bible”
They have been exposed.
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““Those who forsake instruction praise the wicked, but those who heed it resist them.”–Bible”
I hope you don’t think I am praising Coy.
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““I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people”–Bible”
He wrote to the Corinthian church to take the offender back after repentance, and worried that the offender’s grief would overtake him.
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“But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning”–Bible
Good word. That happened. (Note: The “you” was the church, and the “everyone” was the church, and the “others” was the church– from context.)
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“Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.”–Bible
He wrote to the Corinthian church to take the offender back after repentance, and worried that the offender’s grief would overtake him.
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I want to be very clear. I am neither praising Coy, nor saying not to write about it. I am merely adding a bit of Biblical take on how we handle this outside of the church.
Blessings all…
a pastor wrote: “I am merely adding a bit of Biblical take on how we handle this outside of the church”
It’s being handled outside the church, as Bob Coy went far beyond the church walls. Michael may or may not ever talk about it again. That is his choice.
But the talk is never going to stop, until Bob Coy’s sins are clear, in public. He was a public figure. You might not like this.
RiBo:
“We don’t know if he’s repented yet or not. We know he got caught and resigned, we do not know if he is no longer watching p0rn and time will tell if he’s done biblically knowing other women who aren’t his wife.”
No. You don’t. That was kind of the point.
Andy:
“You turned into the typical Calvary Chapel pastor, in my opinion. No shock at all, to me.”
I’m sorry you feel that way. I have not defended Coy.
Blessings to you both.
Andy:
“It’s being handled outside the church, as Bob Coy went far beyond the church walls. Michael may or may not ever talk about it again. That is his choice.
But the talk is never going to stop, until Bob Coy’s sins are clear, in public. He was a public figure. You might not like this.”
I would propose the talk probably won’t end then either. Coy has permanently stained his own character, integrity, and reputation. He did it. I agree 150% with Michael on that.
Michael, this piece was well written and I can see that it’s something that you thought about before posting. I appeciate the fact that last week you let Alan and many other’s discuss restoration. If any of the Coy groupies really understood your heart, they would figure out that repentence and restoration is where we all need to go in a situation like this and you did just that.
Your thread today does not take away from the restoration process but it does force those whose eyes are on the man to take another look at how dangerous it is when that man fails while working for God.
Michael: In rereading my original post in this thread, I realize it came across as critical of you. I ask your forgiveness for that. That wasn’t my intent. I appreciate the forum of conversation you’ve created here, and appreciate the work you do, which goes far beyond exposure of sin and serves the Christian community. Please accept my apologies.
I’m sensing a terrific publishing opportunity for you, Michael: The Redacted Study Bible™.
Bryon,
Let’s tell the rest of the story.
I asked you to ask your leaders to please contact me and I gave you my personal phone number.
They allowed me to be the object of scorn and derision and impugned my integrity and character by refusing to confirm the report I published that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt was true.
My request was that they be honest about that part of this matter and refuse to allow another brother to be treated with contempt by the Body of Christ for telling the truth.
I have not heard a word.
Evidently the only souls your leaders care for are their own.
I’ve been in a situation like this although on a much smaller scale. Here is one major thing that I learned. The more the church and those close to the pastor try to minimize the shame of the situation, the more they will be accused of being the real culprit for the pastors absence.
You feel like you’re being the true friend you were always taught to be with your church family when you help to minimize the shame or hide what the moral failing is. But the less time the pastor spends openly admitting to and dealing with his problem, the more everyone else who is close to him will be made to blame for the absence of that pastor. Michael has made it clear how quickly people are to overlook the failings of their pastors in order to keep consuming his product and one of the easiest ways to do this is blame the other guys around him for supposedly using the situation to their advantage for greater control.
It won’t be long before CCFTL has some assistant ministers coming here trying to deal with the rejection they will suffer when they do step up to fill in the void left by their pastor. It will be unreal for them just how far the pain of this particular “moral failing” will stretch itself out into the rest of the lives of the people on that staff.
When you are forced to have to deal with a serious matter like this for the sake of your church family, many times you find yourself the one left outside in the end with no friends or church family and doubting everything you once believed about the Christian faith. And it’s a cold, cold place to be.
a pastor wrote “The Biblical view that I see of church discipline operates by the principle that it should be kept as private as the offender allows it to be, depending on when they choose to repent.”
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Not sure exactly where in the Bible you get this at all? I see that the entire congregation was involved in the biblical examples of church discipline.
a pastor,
I was not offended…I publish these to enable what I hope will be thoughtful discussion and some of that is bound to be critical.
I have enjoyed your contributions here, as have most others.
Sergius,
It’s the “Jefferson Bible” all over again… 🙂
The pastor that preached the services the weekend of the disclosure has now been removed from the website…
“When we deny the depths of our sins, we forfeit the full measure of the grace of God for them.”
Psa 106:15 And He gave them their request, But sent leanness into their soul.
This is the apex of the issue and the reason for such exposure. A man with such a large platform did not do his ministry in a corner, and it is unrealistic to expect for his sin to handled in such a private fashion. And if the leadership at CCFtL is angry because this information went public before they had their hand on the plow, they need to look within their own organization. It is ironic that the organizations want such influence and large ministries, and yet they want to shut the doors and act like they are a church of 100 when things go off the rails. They cannot have it both ways, and desire to control is yet another manifestation of the problem that appears to be festering there.
Furthermore, while I have no inside information on this, I can bet that Bob’s sins were not in a vacuum. I have no doubt that blind eyes were turned, ears stopped up from hearing, and eyes shut so that they did not see. In my world, we call it enabling. It is only when we truly humble ourselves and own the sins of the church that we can experience true forgiveness that allows us to walk in full fellowship with God. Not acknowledging such is like a closet in the back bedroom that is not cleaned out.
While I do not know the hearts of those in leadership at CCFtL, this appears to be the classic method of damage control, where those in power have their handle on how this unfortunate event is orchestrated, and the source of their anger is their lack of control. That’s not humility, that’s not justice, and that short circuits God’s ability to fully be glorified in this tragic situation.
So Mr. Mondok, you can take that back to your bosses.
We also need to think about our definition of the “local church”.
This local church is actually 11 local churches, a media and publishing network, and the founder was in leadership with a international denomination.
First century local churches didn’t have these kind of ethical dilemmas to face with leadership issues.
All, I want to be clear here… Michael probably has more insight into what’s going on behind the scenes of the Coy situation than I do, and if that’s the case, he has more right to speak on the situation than I do. It may very well be that an ongoing public conversation is needed here, and if it is I hope it continues.
My post was a collection of thoughts to give what I see as a fuller perspective of sin/repentance/restoration and the ultimate motives everyone should have when dealing with these situations. They were intended in context of the greater blogosphere, and not a specific post meant for Michael. (I’ve enjoyed Michael’s posts last week along just those lines.)
I failed to include that in the original post, and sincerely apologize to Michael, since that failure of inclusion gives the impression that I perceive Michael wrongly.
Blessings…
Ixtlan,
What you said…amen.
CrucifiED,
I’m sorry that happened to you…and I’m in this to see that doesn’t happen to others in this case.
a pastor,
These are very difficult waters to navigate and I do so in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
Critical comments have saved me from grief more than once…
Andrew:
“Not sure exactly where in the Bible you get this at all? I see that the entire congregation was involved in the biblical examples of church discipline.”
Matthew 18:15-17.
Granted, the fall of a leader should be exposed before the entire church, which is what I was promoting. Within in the church.
Michael:
“I was not offended…I publish these to enable what I hope will be thoughtful discussion and some of that is bound to be critical.
I have enjoyed your contributions here, as have most others.”
As always, you’re very gracious. 🙂
“We also need to think about our definition of the “local church”.
This local church is actually 11 local churches, a media and publishing network, and the founder was in leadership with a international denomination.
First century local churches didn’t have these kind of ethical dilemmas to face with leadership issues.”
You bring up a great point. It’s for this and other reasons that I’m not a fan of multi-campus churches.
Michael:
“Critical comments have saved me from grief more than once…”
Amen and amen. Prayers that you have the spiritual discernment to listen to the Godly criticisms while discarding others, and the willing introspection to heed that discernment in all things. Do me the solid of praying the same for me. lol
“Granted, the fall of a leader should be exposed before the entire church, which is what I was promoting. Within in the church.”
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You quoted Matt 18 as a church discipline passage. It doesn’t become church discipline until the end “tell it to the church part”. My point is the average Joe or the next superstar pastor should abide by the same rules regarding church discipline. I doubt there is even one case of anyone in CCFL that was not a well known leader that was ever put under church discipline in the Biblical sense. However, I am sure there were many that were put under church discipline by Coy along with his leadership team that the congregation knows nothing about. That is unbiblical because there is no one praying for these men and women to be restored. They are simply forgotten and all attention is still on Coy.
“The victims here are his family, the women he chose to share in his sin, and the congregation he failed.”
“the women he chose to share in his sin”
I call Bullcrap on that! They were responsible for keeping their panties on and they are adulteresses. Stop being this panzi ass “all women are victims” that this Oprah culture propagates. The Bible hold women responsibile for their sin just as it holds Men. I grew up in the streets not some whitewashed picket fence lifestyle, I have seem women be just as evil as Men.
a pastor, none of what I wrote was directed toward you. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Andrew, the fact that the “and if he still doesn’t listen, tell it to the church” part is in there makes the entire thing about church discipline. It is a gradual process which seeks restoration/repentance while protecting the privacy of both the offender and the offended.
(1) Work it out between you.
(2) Bring a small, spiritually mature (Galatians 6:1) group into it.
(3) Expose it to the full body.
As a pastor, I have to tread these deep waters. I am overjoyed when two believers can work out their differences in genuine love and grace. I am heartbroken if it ever comes to the place where discipline becomes public, corporate and fellowship is broken.
Blessings…
RiBo: Not on you. I was probably a bit hyper-sensitive. 🙂
Solomon,
I never cease to be impressed by your street cred.
I just made myself laugh…
The women are accountable for their sin…but do a little research on the use of position and power to make sexual conquests.
It’s been years since we have seen Bryon Mondock here – welcome back! I have a question for Bryon, how is your granddaughter, and how has her recovery gone over these past several years? Well, I hope.
Michael said, “Evidently the only souls your leaders care for are their own.”
It’s CYA mode for sure. The “bloggers” get to do the dirty work and then get to be part of the distraction of “the devil!” away from the real issues of Coy’s being caught and the legit issues that poses.
Typical evangelicalism and another reason why it is in such decline and has lost its credibility and can’t be trusted and is not an honest broker.
I must say that I am a bit of a prophet … just not 100% accurate. Two weeks ago when we were going hammer and tongs at each other about the World Vision dust up – Michael said that it was going to be the mega shift in evangelicalism … I said (here was my prophecy) – in 2 weeks Mark Driscoll will do something stupid and you will not hear anymore about World Vison.
Good prophecy on my part – I just needed to substitute Coy for Driscoll.I just looked, even RHE hasn’t said anymore on the topic … at least at her blog.
“5. Despite current cultural beliefs to the contrary, shame is a good and necessary reaction to sin. We have become a shameless culture and the church is following suit.”
So true and so sad.
a pastor,
Thank you for your comment @52.
“I am heartbroken if it ever comes to the place where discipline becomes public, corporate and fellowship is broken.”
I am heart broken too. But if the process doesn’t get to the public stage it is not true “church discipline” at all because the entire church is not involved in the healing process. So if a pastor (not you but just any ole pastor) tells you are under church discipline privately yet prevents you from fellowshiping corporately, I know that it is not church discipline at all but rather this pastor fooling himself with his own arrogance and fantasy. And if it was pastor Bob that put you under the discipline, wouldn’t you have to agree with me?
MLD,
I do believe that it was a turning point…confining it to the WV incident is foolish.
Michael,
The point was how easy we change our focus. We went from apparent mega shift issues to the salacious.
Has anyone looked into the connection of this with Blood Moons?
While I do think there is definitely an element of demon involvement in great deceptions like this case (and the situation of my life over a decade ago), there is also a whole lot of ‘co-dependency’ aka enabling.
There must have been many around Bob (and the others) who knew something was very wrong, but chose to ignore the red flags since their jobs and church-centric lives were wrapped up in him being pastor. Not the least of these would be Diane Coy. Perhaps she, as I did, tried and tried to bring light into the situation, to no avail.
I’ve been reading all week. The quality of discussion, even when allowing for the “He may be an S.O.B., but he’s our S.O.B.” defenses from the followers of Bob Coy, has been excellent. This is a troubling issue and these are troubling times. I think the recent discussion has been enlightening and — most of the time — fair and polite.
I welcome the new voice from “a pastor.” I also pray for Michael and his job interviews. Thanks to RiBo and others who have presented various perspectives, and thanks to all those that contributed articles that led the discussion last week. You have all been a blessing to me. Thank you.
It is not in agreement that we learn, but rather in disagreement and argument and discussion that our ideas are shaped. When challenged, we have to dig deep into our Bible understanding and, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, truth will will out. The fire can bring light. “Iron sharpens iron.” — Proverbs.
I’m very sad for the circumstance in Florida. I know many hearts are broken and confusion must be spreading. It is sad when a man of Christ fails in such a prominent way, but I don’t think anyone is rejoicing in this fall. Rather we are trying to learn from it. There are many hurt by this. Imagine those who are weak in the faith and just growing in the Holy Spirit. I pray they will not stumble due to this.
Redemption and forgiveness of sin is the essence of our common belief, but it is not a “get out of jail free” card. It is a difficult journey and a long and slow process that must be followed. That has been as much a focus of the discussion as the original sin. For that focus on redemption, this blog is to be praised. For bravely telling it like it is, the blog author deserves praise. For much of the responses, you all deserve praise. Thank you.
I pray for all those affected and all those hurt by these happenings. It is best to shine a light on the situation and learn from it rather than hide it in the dark. Thank you Michael and all those that have commented.
The blood moons? LOL
What gets me most is the lack of outrage by Christian when the favored leaders like Bob Coy bring hurt and pain to so many others. I have mercy but shed no tears for Bob Coy, or even myself, the result of such sin is to bring pain and suffering to others.
Where is our shame?
Oh I forgot, we are all sinners.
Right…..
#63, #64,
I’m applauding these posts from my kitchen!!
Amen and amen!
And because of the resonating voice of the Spirit through these PP voices of hope and love…..I continue to place my faith in our faithful and tenacious God–this is how I know God is real–this evidence of healthy, familial love in the saints.
None of this is too big for Him:) or beyond His notice. He is able. He is not the dysfunctional disempowered god of modern church landscape. No.
HE IS ACTUALLY GOD.
[feeling the need to be Pentecostal here and claim stuff…..my apologies to the not so demonstrative among us]
blood moons may be accurate if you add a “y” to blood and an “r” in moons. 😉
RE: Alan Hawkins @ # 62:
Has anyone looked into the connection of this with Blood Moons?
Casual connections are harmless and can even be fun, like reading one’s horoscope in the newspaper. But when the fearful, the superstitious, and the ignorant make them causal, witches and heretics get jailed, hanged, and burnt. Hopefully we’ll not repeat those dark times.
“So if a pastor (not you but just any ole pastor) tells you are under church discipline privately yet prevents you from fellowshiping corporately, I know that it is not church discipline at all but rather this pastor fooling himself with his own arrogance and fantasy. And if it was pastor Bob that put you under the discipline, wouldn’t you have to agree with me?”
I agree.
Regarding your #6 above–biblical illiteracy–it reminds me of what a friend likes to say about certain individuals: “often mistaken, never in doubt.” The caricature of other theological positions simply demonstrates that many pastors are not genuinely interested in veracity, intellectual honesty, fairness, or balance, but, instead, set up straw-men to easily knock down and appear heroic & astute.
This blog is like much of life. People come and people go. Souls enter our lives and others depart. This has been a season of departure for me. I’ve lost several good friends and long time acquaintances in these last twelve months. It goes with the territory as you grow older and I’m rapidly approaching my allotted three score and ten. Many don’t make that mark in life.
So I’m extra conscious of the loss of loved ones. As I welcome a new voice on PhxP from “a pastor,” I’m missing some of the departed voices. Some reappear surprisingly and old conversations resume. I am especially missing the voice of “Josh the Baptist.” He was one I loved to read and wish I could meet in person. I am sad at his absence.
As we discuss and discourse on this blog, we should be aware that our choice of words can force some to depart. While I accept conflict and argument as the path to understanding, I would like everyone to consider the affect of their tone on their brothers and sisters in Christ. Say what you think, by all means. But consider the impact of HOW you say it.
For some it was a time in their lives to leave. I would like to believe that no one was chased away. I just hope we will meet again.
J.U.,
Excellent words…thank you.
J.U. always adds value to this blog. Always enjoy this person’s take and whether I agree or disagree.
While I in no way condone what Bob has done and without mitigating the harm and disappointment, I still think it is a shame that all the good he has done has been mitigated and defined by this one act. Pastors, be ware
Bryon
I have followed your plight with your granddaughter Allie for years. I have also contributed to your blog. I have prayed for her through all her trials and I have prayed for you and your “beautiful wife Susan” (as you so endearingly call her.)
It is obvious you are loyal to both CCFL and to the Pastor.
They have enabled you to spend much time you needed to handle your situation with Allie early on. Many would not have that ability given the situation.
I know how much you adore anything to do with CCFL and BC.
I greatly respect you, but I have to object to your tone here.
As one of many who have been affected by his poor leadership, him, I would ask you to put aside your loyalty and face reality.
And as someone suggested, go back over the 600 posts and read the heart’s of those who have contributed here.
I am sure you are still in a state of shock, but when you come out of it, you will see the light and will have to think of your beloved Pastor differently.
I applaud Michael for speaking the truth, something that is sorely lacking at CCFL.
Good word Steve.
1 Corinthians 9:27
Steve wrote: “all the good he has done has been mitigated and defined by this one act”
It was more than one act. Much more.
You make it sound like he accidentally fell down a well.
he did it to himself Steve! all the good he has done, please! he entertained the masses….
“Pastors, be ware’, be faithful to God, to your wife, keep IT in your pants, and be faithful to God’s congregation and you will have nothing to worry about! In other words do your job you were ‘called’ to do.
Dusty wrote: “he entertained the masses”
That’s right. “Bob is so funny!” was the main calling card that people brought to me about him.
it is not your congregation nor is it your church….God gives and will and can take away!
CC will go into a “siege” mentality at this point and try to protect the reputation of the whole group. This is brutal because this is not the only cover up in the system. While many sins will remain secret the damage is done. The power that comes from the “dictator” model has, is and will always produce corruption.
Steve Hopkins said, “While I in no way condone what Bob has done and without mitigating the harm and disappointment, I still think it is a shame that all the good he has done has been mitigated and defined by this one act. Pastors, be ware”
Lonnie Frisbee was gay, that didn’t invalidate Calvary Chapel as move of the spirit etc.
Coy is a hetero adulterer, many other CC pastors are as well. Many CC pastors are gluttons, liars, full of pride, child abusers etc.
I don’t think many outside the bubble are invalidating his work for his “moral failure”…just pointing out that he’s a hypocrite and that there are consequences when you put yourself on the pedestal as “specially anointed” and then judge others through your particular version of teaching the bible etc.
Coy has a lot of company in the CC pastorate ranks, he’s not nearly unique in “moral failure”. Neither is any Christian* group really. It’s why I continue to see proven over and over that the “transformation Gospel” is a myth.
You get saved…you’re still just as capable of bad and sin and evil as before you were saved. This is proven in spades again and again…or you are forced to argue Coy wasn’t really saved, nor are most if not all of the CC pastors.
Frosted Flake, this is not the first sin in this camp….many sins have already been kept secret and lots and lots of damage done….hopefully this is this is the beginning of something new.
RiBo wrote: “or you are forced to argue Coy wasn’t really saved, nor are most if not all of the CC pastors”
And actually Coy and ALL the CC pastors, would have questioned the salvation of mere pew sitters that lived in constant sexual sin. You know this, if you’ve ever heard any of the major CC pastors speak.
Even Chuck Smith said in a book of his, “If they are living together without being married, I’m going to rattle their cage about their salvation!”
Why were they questioning other people’s salvation?
…all the more reason to have MANDATORY checks and balances in the Calvary Chapel by-laws and Child Protections and Financial Transparency.
Even Calvary Chapel pastors agree when push comes to shove that the “specially anointed” are still capable of as much evil as any heathen out there.
Knowing this makes it even worse that Calvary Chapel doesn’t require checks and balances to the power of the flawed Pastor.
I still think it is a shame that all the good he has done has been mitigated and defined by this one act
——————————————————-
I repeatedly comment about my belief in the independence of the local church. It is that belief that has kept me from stating my POV about how CCFTL has handled things, as it is none of my business, even as a CC pastor, and I would not have wanted Bob Coy and his team to poke his head into our church’s governance either. The CCFTL team needs to seek the Lord in total dependence on Him and be willing to do whatever He says, no matter how painful or embarrassing because the Lord’s will is the path to recovery.
My only advice, if I were asked.
I believe the removal of Coy’s messages and the scrubbing of his name from the history of the church is both wrong and antithetical to any goal of restoring a fallen brother (and I don’t mean to the pulpit restoration – but fellowship restoration). The reasoning offered is weak and I am reminded of two passages – one where Paul speaks of those who proclaimed the truth in order to hurt him personally, and how Paul still rejoiced. Second, when David was being cursed but in his brokenness he said ‘Maybe the Lord wants him to curse” – Who cares if a few people might listen and post messages to mock?
Put a disclaimer that says “The truth of God’s word is not dependent upon the messenger who delivers it. These messages remain as the truth of God’s word being proclaimed with the understanding the messenger has failed to practice what he preached. Our confidence is that they will continue to bless, encourage and edify thousands in the years to come”
And as to the “History” page, what is wrong with saying that Coy started and grew the church?? Why (and how) have a “history” page at all when there is no “history” without Bob? No need to even mention his sin or resignation on this page, but to scrub the record like that seems very odd to me. Just take down the page.
Andy, yes, it’s the Calvary Chapel 2 step…it’s quite a dance.
If you are continuing in sin for a period of time, or are gay or whatever…then they see that as validation to question your salvation.
Yet, the CC pastors themselves live very sinful lives and some get caught, many don’t.
Even today, you have actively sinning gluttons, liars, child abusers, adulterers etc in the CC pulpits and on the radio etc….ongoing sin…unconfessed sin (can’t have repented if you don’t even cop to the sin)…yet they are assumed by CC to be “saved” and just need some of that good old grace and mercy from Jesus! Can I get an amen!
RiBo: “yet they are assumed by CC to be “saved” and just need some of that good old grace and mercy from Jesus! Can I get an amen!”
B-I-N-G-O
It’s the need for mercy and grace when a pastor is caught in years of unrepentant sexual sin. But if the face in the crowd did it, whoa, they’re unsaved!!!
Ribo, capable of bad but have a choice….each choice takes you farther away or closer…just because someone flirts with you does not mean you have to flirt back-choice, just cuz they touch your arm does not mean you touch them back-choice, just cuz they —–choice after choice….you don’t fall into bed with someone….you don’t accidentally sin in that way the like you just slammed a hammer into your thumb……oops…oh well…it’s done now…it does not work that way….choose the narrow less traveled path….
Steve Wright, you seem to be saying that you wouldn’t welcome another fellow Calvary Chapel brother in the Lord who you affiliate and associate with to offer to help you with accountability and to see if you are being accountable?
That doesn’t seem like the point of Association at all. I thought Association’s purpose is to help each other out and have a common bond etc?
Why Associate with other Calvary Chapels then if you don’t want them as fellow brothers in the Lord to offer to help you…or do you view accountability as not helping?
Steve w, If the messenger was a false teacher than his messages needed to come down. You can’t teach ‘do as I say not as I do’. It is ungodly and corrupt.
Dusty,
I hope you are right, but the average age of the veteran CC pastor fits under the category of “old dogs” and I don’t think they can learn very many new tricks. The hope is that a new generation of pastor will be raised up, understand the job description and feed sheep instead of egos.
If Coy’s messages need to be removed then the whole organization needs to shut down based on that reasoning. If his teaching is ungodly and corrupt then to perpetuate the fruit of that teaching is the same thing.
There must be some link between Coy’s teaching and his personal income that concerns them. It must be a way to avoid him having a claim against them.
Seems strange to me that “independent” Calvary Chapels don’t want any help from another CC when it comes to Accountability and doing things a better way…yet still claim some sort of common bond and Association/Affiliation?
Why be connected then? If you don’t want any Accountability input and want to go it alone…then be fully independent and cut ties. Doesn’t make any sense.
RiBo wrote: “or you are forced to argue Coy wasn’t really saved, nor are most if not all of the CC pastors”
_____________________________________________________________________
I won’t defend the transformational gospel “as taught” in many CCs. I think they are quite immature in only drinking milk with no meat. With that said, I am also not going to attempt to judge Coy in regards to his salvation. However, I think in regards to being a pastor he is disqualified.
Now, I think it will be quite interesting how other CC pastors treat Coy and whether they treat him as saved or not. I say this cause I can’t tell you how many times I have heard a CC pastor say when preaching “We need to get people unsaved, before we get them saved”. When ever I hear this little slogan and I must have heard it a thousands times, I am under the impression Calvary doesn’t think any of the congregation are really saved at all. They say they don’t like membership because it gives the individual a false sense of security that they are SAVED. Could it possible be that CC needs to shift their attention off of whether membership gives you a false sense of security to the bigger question of whether being a pastor gives you a false sense of security.
I have been to many CC websites when new pastors take over and they have removed the old pastor’s messages. Thought it was Co. policy.
I thought the bible says Accountability is a good thing and even teaches that “brothers” should come alongside other brothers and help them and hold them accountable etc.
I guess that message is just for the sheeple, not applicable to pastors or churches. My bad.
FF,
Don’t hold your breath. The young dogs are just like the old dogs, only more ambitious for big platform.
Steve Wright, I get it. I don’t want anyone telling me what to do or not do either. I’m with you. Go it alone and tell the other 1500 Calvary Chapels you are officially Associated and Affiliate with to mind their own business.
Dusty, David was able to be used by God even as a sinner. We haven’t expunged the Psalms from the Bible. Solomon was morally bankrupt when it came to women. He even became an idolater that had Asherah poles erected in the hills of Israel. We haven’t expunged the Proverbs, Eccles or Songs…
Failure of the messenger doesn’t negate the message.
David was a king, Solomon was a king…CC pastors are not Kings….show me a pastor in the bible who was a moral failure.
a pastor, and Jesus called Peter, an Apostle “satan!”…how bad is that? Can’t get much worse. Yet got used Peter.
Yep we’re all deeply flawed.
I guess we should just embrace it and be honest about it and go Antinomian.
a pastor wrote: “David was able to be used by God even as a sinner”
Fine, that’s true. So next time I hear a CC pastor question a person’s salvation based on that person having a sin issue in their life (which I’ve heard countless times from CC pastors including Chuck Smith), I’ll send them to you for counseling.
Alan,
In CC if you don’t like history erase it. That has been done numerous times from Frisbee, Stipe when he joined the Vineyard, Wimber who headed several CC pastors conferences at Twin Peaks and launched a new era for Maranatha music. There are giant gaps in CC history where people have been removed to protect the “reputation.” By the way, how’s that workin’ for ’em these days?
RiBo,
A huge part of what they are affiliated around is the doctrine of the autonomous local church.
If the local board and elders aren’t willing to be accountable, an outside agent isn’t going to make a difference.
Considering I just wrote an article to offer advice to other pastors and churches, I trust the difference is obvious between a pastor from another church telling a second church what they must do, versus making suggestions, and sharing experiences and ideas.
Frosted Flake
some of the new generation of pastor are leaving CC
Dusty, David and Solomon wrote Bible books. You misunderstood my point. I didn’t say to ordain Coy again. I was speaking to leaving his messages up. His sin alone does not negate his messages any more than David’s sin negated his message, or Solomon’s sin negated his.
Frosted Flake wrote: “That has been done numerous times from Frisbee”
Yeah, Frisbee got erased from CC and Vineyard.
Andy:
“Fine, that’s true. So next time I hear a CC pastor question a person’s salvation based on that person having a sin issue in their life (which I’ve heard countless times from CC pastors including Chuck Smith), I’ll send them to you for counseling.”
Feel free.
RB,
I think you are purposely misstating Steve Wright’s point. He doesn’t want people just nosing into his church’s business uninvited. I am sure he would take help when he requested it.
I am sure it is the same if i called you and then your wife offering my advise on how to improve your marriage unsolicited. I am sure that you would take great offense that I would assume you had problems. However, if you asked for advise, you would be more ready to accept.
Same thing.
Dusty,
You are absolutely correct, they are leaving like migrating herds.
Dusty wrote: “some of the new generation of pastor are leaving CC”
And even some of the “old guard” changed the name from the get-go.
FF,
That would Alice, not Alan. I get it. I also know there are several CC pastors in the late 40’s to early 60’s that do not fit the model as you described and never bought into the deficient system or erasing the blemishes. That is the demographic within the movement that has by large (with some exceptions of course) been passed over by the power brokers of the first generation.
MLD and Steve, ” I am sure he would take help when he requested it.”
You really think the guys in the big sin want the accountability help? LOL. You guys are naive.
The point I’m making is that you have MANDATE the accountability b/c the bad guys in the major sin won’t want it otherwise.
I am sick of hearing CC pastors compared to King David and King Solomon….Did you know that King David lost 4 of this sons to death because of his sins? and king Solomon with all his wives and concubines….women’s menses all correlate to the same time frame….how is that for a smart man…to have thousands of women PMSing at the same time.
now! do you still want to be compared to these two ‘men’
Ribo:
“a pastor, and Jesus called Peter, an Apostle “satan!”…how bad is that? Can’t get much worse. Yet got used Peter.
Yep we’re all deeply flawed.
I guess we should just embrace it and be honest about it and go Antinomian.”
____________________________________
I don’t know that I ’embrace’ it per se, but I’m absolutely honest about it. I fight it just like Paul said everyone should. I war between flesh and spirit every day. I rely on the power of God alive in me– the very power of God that raised Jesus from the dead– to battle my base human nature. I abide in Christ, that I may produce the fruits of the spirit as opposed to the fruits of the flesh.
Blessings…
Hey, I’m all for all you evangelicals leaving everyone alone and not judging them and not telling them they need to repent and tow a line that folks can’t tow…even the “specially anointed” CC pastors can’t tow it and then want maximum grace and mercy and privacy etc.
No one wants others in their business, got it.
OK, fine, then save your finger waving and judging for yourselves and stop preaching a false “transformation gospel” that doesn’t exist.
You guys are still sinners, just as capable of evil and sin as any homosexual or any fornicator or any drunk or drug user etc etc.
Dusty wrote: “I am sick of hearing CC pastors compared to King David and King Solomon”
From a Biblical standpoint, there is no comparison. It’s a misapplication on their part. The NT describes the pastor very clearly, so that is the place to go for that.
Again, this is why I ask the question: “How do you know you’re saved? How can you prove your salvation?”
When push comes to shove…it isn’t personal holiness. It isn’t “correct” doctrine. What is it?
Why be connected then? If you don’t want any Accountability input and want to go it alone…then be fully independent and cut ties. Doesn’t make any sense.
_____________________________________________________________________
It doesn’t make sense until you look at the possible motives. Is it possible the only affiliation these independent churches want is to draw upon is each others power and strength but not share with their weaknesses. Its like everyone is using each other for their own power hungry ego. I’m convinced of this.
RiBo wrote: “Again, this is why I ask the question: “How do you know you’re saved? How can you prove your salvation?” When push comes to shove…it isn’t personal holiness. It isn’t “correct” doctrine. What is it?”
It is John 3:16.
Andy, even the demons believe.
“Again, this is why I ask the question: “How do you know you’re saved? How can you prove your salvation?”
Because of the work of Jesus on the cross and the promises of Jesus to save me.
I am surprised you still don’t know this. We need to get you saved RB.
Dusty:
“I am sick of hearing CC pastors compared to King David and King Solomon….Did you know that King David lost 4 of this sons to death because of his sins? and king Solomon with all his wives and concubines….women’s menses all correlate to the same time frame….how is that for a smart man…to have thousands of women PMSing at the same time.
now! do you still want to be compared to these two ‘men’”
They lived out the results of their sin just as everyone does. They were sinners. I am a sinner who has and does live out the results of my sin. ‘Want’ or not, I am comparable.
You never spoke to my point though, did you? Even after they fell, God still used the messages He divinely brought through them. I don’t know about you, but as a man painfully aware of my own sins and fleshly battle, God uses their messages in my life more powerfully in light of their failures.
Do you find this also?
MLD, I’ve been baptized twice…I’m Lutheran saved!
There is something you have to realize about pastors in general. When they get together for the city prayer breakfast or a pastors conference they are almost never vulnerable. There is nobody showing weakness, asking for help or admitting failure, let alone confessing sin. There is nobody “helping” nobody. These are the phoniest gatherings I’ve ever attended and they never change. If Coy reached out to anyone the “help” received was along the line of “don’t tell anyone.”
RiBo wrote: “Andy, even the demons believe”
Demons can’t be saved no matter what they believe. James was quoting a fictitious debate partner, one that he later called a fool.
RB, which outside authority is your church accountable to? Your pastor’s friends??
Andrew I agree…the motive for Affiliation/Association is purely Marketing and Brand recognition power. Not very spiritual…but it is what it is.
Steve, I’m not sure if you have looked at other threads on the PP but as of last night, it was brought up that BC was not teaching his prepared messages and that he had someone write his messages for him. If there is any truth to this, should his messages still be available for public consumption? It just seems to me that as more and more information about BC’s behavior comes out, it makes perfect sense to put a lid on all of the teachings if for no other reason, then to just confirm he actually prepared these messages.
A pastor, i did speak to that point, many CC take down the old pastor’s messages when the new pastor comes in…I thought it was CC policy.
MLD, they are accountable to our church membership. We can fire the pastor, we have child protections in place, we have a recourse policy for a member with a beef, we elect our board and elders, etc.
RB,
“MLD, I’ve been baptized twice…I’m Lutheran saved!”
You only got wet … not saved. You have already said many times you (1) don’t know if the Bible is true and (2) don’t believe most of it as it is written – so i am sure you have tossed off the promises of Christ.
Feel the heat?
We also have open/transparent finances so we can see how much Jesus money comes in and where it is spent….something that would send shockwaves through Calvary Chapel if it were ever required.
Why would Calvary Chapel pastors fear financial transparency?
I guess I just don’t get it….maybe I’m not saved.
Dusty:
It is not a policy that I am aware of.
I am not defending them – I am only challenging you. How do you know your church is transparent – how do you know they haven’t been cooking the books? What outside authority can just stroll into your church to do the audit?
That is what you are asking Steve.
The pastor who took over for BC’s brother at my old church took down bob’s brother’s messages, then when that pastor left his following pastor took down his messages, and the pastor took down the pastors messages when he took over…….
a pastor, I think Dusty’s point was how CC pastors are “specifically” always being compared to a King (Touch Not God’s anointed), etc, etc, etc. It gets tiring after a while hearing this all the time. Why isn’t the average CC congregant referred to as a king? Aren’t all believers in a way kings and priests? Aren’t all believers anointed? I too am sick and tired of the duplicity. Take this a step farther, should we all look to Moses and follow his example. Should we all learn to delegate like him? What makes a CC pastor so special that only a CC pastor can take the mantle of Moses or the mantle of David, etc… ?
Thank you Andrew!!!!
“Why would Calvary Chapel pastors fear financial transparency?”
A friend of mine pastors a small CC. He made the financials available, one person looked them over and was angry because he thought that there was too much in savings and not enough giving to other ministries. His anger festered and he finally left, taking others with him. The first time he approached the pastor with his point of view was also the day he told him he was leaving.
Andrew, I merely pointed out that God could use David and Solomon’s messages after they fell, just like he could use Bob Coy’s after he fell.
I personally don’t think that CC pastors are the only people who can use Moses as a leadership model. If you feel called to pastor, start a church and see if anyone follows you. If you do, I hope that you would use the nuances of Moses’ leadership style that I listed in another thread– i.e. selfless service, seeking God, etc…
But again… I never made such appeals in this thread. Must I continually swim against the current of your perceptions just to comment here?
As the Superpastor article pointed out last week the structure and philosophy of the “lone wolf” leader is beginning to fail. To use scripture written to Kings and Prophets such as “touch not God’s anointed” is the height of arrogance for the insecure CC pastor. They don’t even believe it themselves but if they can get the limited public to believe it call it church.
MLD I do hold onto the true faith that God is Love and he is Mercy and will reconcile all at some point if he is really there.
MLD, the only heat I feel from you is the warmth emanating from the manure coming from your keyboard 🙂
J.U. …. I miss Josh as well. He’s a good man and invested in seeing God glorified and wasn’t slow to share his thoughts. I hope he returns.
A pastor, Andrew was not baiting you, nor am I. These are arguments we have heard over and over and over….and we are weary. And I’m not myself today.
Must I continually swim against the current of your perceptions just to comment here?
—————————————————————-
a pastor….Yes.
There was a time a large number of CC pastors posted here, many by name. Those days are gone. As you see from my two simple posts, people’s past experiences and the emotions connected to them often leads to an inability for dialog. The internet medium is hard enough without what we as pastors actually write being twisted into something not even remotely what we wrote.
Good luck
Steve W, ….who twisted your words?
Many of the CC pastors posted here to get us to shut up….nothing more. and they were way meaner that you claim we are.
Steve Wright,
I for one am glad you hang out around here. CC is a family for sure. My dad was sort of a jerk but I still keep his last name. (reluctantly) I’m not proud of CC much these days but a lot of people are in the Kingdom because of their ministry.
a pastor and Steve W. I want you to know that I (and I believe many here) appreciate your presence and your willingness to share.
I also appreciate Dusty is back again and as feisty as ever!
MLD and RiBo are going at it again, but the “mood” seems to be much more positive or “lighter….. Well done, guys!
I too, miss Josh. Hope he comes back.
Thank you all for your participation. I’m reading and grieving over what has happened in Florida, and not commenting too much. I know I can say things I will regret, and have learned to keep my mouth shut. I’ll just say this…Michael is not the enemy in that mess.
Nonnie, its all my fault….me and my feistiness causing trouble again…Michael may not be happy with me when he gets home.
Dusty:
I’m hoping he’s in too good of a mood to let it bother him. 🙂
Maybe I can blame it on Ribo? 😉
A pastor, you don’t want me to sit in time out?
No Dusty!! It is not your fault!! Oh my!! I certainly was not putting a “fault” on anyone. I just wanted to let everyone know I was glad to see therm here and read what they have to say!!
Dusty: lol Why would I? Even if you had done anything wrong? 🙂
Nonnie, your phone call to me that day was a gift from God. it really was. Iwould jlike to fill you in on all that has been going on if you email me…. dust.shaker@gamil.com. I would love to talk to you again.
a pastor – if we are going to use OT figures to see what God thinks of sin … I for one prefer to use the examples where the ground opened up and swallowed the people. 🙂
oh, I thought I was being the bad one today. 😳
Nonnie, I’m not going at it with RB – I am just trying to point out that what he wants from CC (outside intervention) is not something that his own church allows for.
MLD:
I thank God for His grace, through Christ. I see that example and quake! 🙂
Galatians 6:3
Our church welcomes input….but we’ve pre-empted any need by having Open/Transparent finances, membership, elected board/elders, Child Protections and a recourse procedure in place for a member with a beef etc.
Dusty, I meant “Feisty” as a positive/strong word. I was wondering if I used the word incorrectly, so I looked it up. Ah! It fits you to a tee!! xoox
Definition: “(of a person, typically one who is relatively small) lively, determined, and courageous.
Example: “a love story with a feisty heroine who’s more than a pretty face”
Dusty said, “Maybe I can blame it on Ribo?”
yes, LOL, that’s the default go-to around here. It’s like the “devil made me do it!” of the Bob Coy crowd LOL
Dusty: we were also at CC Oakland county while we lived in Michigan. I wonder if we were there at the same time 1990-1992. 🙂
RiBo, lol jk
Nonnnie, you are so sweet! always!
With the “celebrity” mindset of the culture people will forgive just about anything to see their star back on the stage or screen. It is not much different with celebrity culture in the church.
This mans life and family has fallen apart yet look at the CCFTL facebook page and see the numbers of people who want him back immediately. They don’t really care about him, they want their fix.
Reminds me of an old joke: The devil is sitting on the curb with his tail drooping into the sewer grate crying. Along comes a man and asks him,” Poor Devil, why are you crying?”. The Devil wipes his nose and looks up and says, “It’s those Christians”. “Why the Christians” asks the man meekly. The Devil wipes his nose again with his tail and says, “It’s those Christians! They blame me for EVERYTHING!”.
Well it’s good to know that after all these years some of you haven’t lost your bite. Despite the tone, I will take the risk of speaking to the issue of some have posted about “All” Calvary Chapel pastors being the same. I can’t speak for everyone but I can speak for myself and a few I am closely associated with.
We have learned that size doesn’t really matter. In fact, mega churches create more problems than solve them. We are content with the 250 – 400 people God has given us. They are enough to be responsible for and we are able to be led by the Lord with that many people. We don’t have huge mortgages to pay and staff salaries to consider
Many have been tempted but remained faithful to their wives for years. I have been married nearly 39 years…to the same woman. Never even come close to having an affair.
Several years ago our church re did our bylaws creating a checks and balances for of governance. The elders set and carry out the mission of the church while the board makes policy decisions and holds the pastor and elders accountable to carry out the mission
Included was a section making it possible for a pastor to be removed by a vote from the board of directors and board of elders
After redoing our policy, several other CC churches asked for our policy and followed suit. Again, I can’t and won’t condone Bob Coy’s failure. He hurt a lot of people. I don’t know what his future holds but to make all CC’s pay for his sins is simply incorrect.
What I see is mostly confusion. You are, of course, that the excuses are pitiful. However, what solution do you suggest for those overcome by lust? .
My heart is heavy over the lack of knowledge and teaching about how to overcome lust.
All can and are expected to gain victory over this sin.
overcoming-lust.com http://www.overcoming-lust.com/
How do you overcome the desire to murder someone you are mad at? Use the same technique.
Looking past the topic of the day to the greater and more persistent discussion. Not just CC, but really more American Evangelism. What is the problem? Is it in the “American” part or the “Evangelical” part? I have only experienced Christianity here in the U.S. When I lived in England I was not a Christian.
My own particular brand of American Christianity, which it took me a while to find, is Evangelical Free. That is an independent brand of churches, but not tied to a particular person like a Chuck Smith. The corporate body provides really only one thing, and that is ordination of pastors. The central organization has a statement of faith, and that was recently updated from the old 1950’s version making the language more modern and adjusting slightly the view of end times. Yet each church had to vote if we accepted it or not. We are a truly independent church. All Evangelical Free Churches are totally independent.
The perennial topic here is by-laws and ordinances for church management. No set of laws will eliminate entirely sin or other violations, but most agree a good set of guidelines and by-laws is a best practice to protect from financial fraud, child abuse, and other problems.
But to the problem I see, typified by the current BC scandal. Is it particular to America that we have these Entrepreneurial Churches? Started by one man typically, and it is always a man since this is American Evangelism! Then, like any good company on the New York Stock Exchange, it is all about growth and the elegance of the corporate headquarters.
I know I’m sounding a bit mean spirited, but I do wonder how much of these problems that are regularly documented here on PhxP are systemic in the underlying design of “American Evangelism.” The focus on growth, which is then attributed to God’s approval, may just be like any business where growth is considered good.
I’m not here to mock those who have a true calling from God to found their own church, and I understand and appreciate the good works often done by these organizations, but, as Michael and RiBo and others point out, there seem to be intrinsic problems. Is it in the structure of these growth oriented churches? Or is it just the consequence of fallen man?
I’m not pointing fingers at many who I consider good pastors. I appreciate CC and other pastors who will come on this blog to explain and — yes — even defend certain practices and principles. I think many of them are doing it correctly, but I like to look for root causes.
Of course, a strong denominational structure and hierarchy is no guarantee of freedom from abuse. Just consider the scandals of the RCC. But it is hard to see some of these festering problems occurring in MLD or Xenia’s churches due to the way they are organized. No celebrity pastor. No lack of oversight. An outside structure to appeal to in the case of abuse.
I recently visited an Episcopal Church and the “regional supervisor” was there and gave a sermon. Obviously, this is a church with a strong hierarchy and central organization and supervision. That’s true of most Denominations. Yet it is so “American” to have these independent, nondenominational, and founded by the senior pastor or founder. I know of one mega church that was denominational, but dropped that to become non-denom years ago. Why? Do other countries do church like we do? I wonder. Is it an American phenomenon.
Certainly this is food for thought. American Evangelism. It seems to be so, well, “American.”
I don’t want to be insensitive to people’s issues with sin – but I have always found this helpful
RE: Andy @ # 84:
Even Chuck Smith said in a book of his, “If they are living together without being married, I’m going to rattle their cage about their salvation!”
Aren’t you glad that when you finally stand before your Maker, Chuck Smith (or anybody else) has no say in the matter?
J.U.,
I’m EVFree also. Good to know someone else is familiar with it.
hey! it’s puzzletop!!! how have you been my friend?
Muff & Andy,
Doesn’t it make you wonder where someone is with their commitment to Christ, when they are openly and knowingly living in a continual sin with no remorse or repentance?
$100 at the county recorder’s office and they can be married in 5 minutes – the end of the problem – but instead it seems that they just give Jesus the finger and say “hey, you work it out Jesus.”
I think I would not mind the pastor intervening a little more often.
Doesn’t that bother you guys?
I agree with MLD’s 182
Muff Potter wrote: “Aren’t you glad that when you finally stand before your Maker, Chuck Smith (or anybody else) has no say in the matter?”
Yes, I am happy about that. And MLD won’t have any say in the matter either, though he is trying to bait me (as usual).
By the reasoning that these guys use, we’d have to bring Bob Coy’s salvation into question. Because pastoring a dozen churches, doesn’t get a person into heaven.
pastoring one church won’t get you into heaven. silly
Dusty, exactly. So the measure that they give to the pew sitters, has to be applied to the pastors too.
they know that.
some would give the pastor more free passes than they would give a pew sitter. (Im neither btw)
Andy,
OK, we have a different view of sin.
But know one thing – sin is never an issue in the salvation question. It wasn’t for Hitler and it ‘s not for Coy or me.
But how one lives does say something about how they carry out commitment.
But your issue is that Chuck smith wants to intervene in people’s lives. Some of us think this is a good thing. Some of us see and office of the ministry in scriptures and not just Laissez-faire pulpit teachers
I wonder what the conversation is like on that CC (closed to the public) pastor blog? Does that still exist? I haven’t heard anything about that place in years. Cant remember what it was called.
I guess one difference is, I trust my pastor. I don’t come into this game like many here not trusting anyone. Each week, my pastor is on his knees doing confession with the congregation.
Most of you have never done public confession let alone see your pastor on his knees.
Again, another shortcoming in American Evangelicalism.
MLD wrote: “But know one thing – sin is never an issue in the salvation question. It wasn’t for Hitler and it ‘s not for Coy or me. But how one lives does say something about how they carry out commitment.”
The typical reformed double speak.
Now give me a dissertation on how you’re not technically reformed.
MLD wrote: “I guess one difference is, I trust my pastor”
For doctrinal reasons, I could never trust your pastor. Don’t make me elaborate if you don’t want hurt feelings.
The typical reformed double speak. – Lutherans are not reformed.
So you do not believe that Jesus took care of the sin issue on the cross – well what can I say, perhaps you are JW.
2 cor 5:18 “18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Here you probably missed this when you read – “not counting their trespasses against them,”
MLD,
I believe that all sins are taken care of on the cross. 100%, it is finished.
You don’t believe that. Because you assert that later behavior, can prove them unsaved. You would have called Lot, unsaved.
You can’t hurt my feelings. But my pastor does not call Jesus a liar like yours does.
Andy – you make that up – I said I never base one’s salvation on their sin.
You are just lashing out because you are wrong, backed in to a corner and have lost face on this blog.
MLD,
My pastor says that you are saved by faith in Jesus, and it is permanent and can’t be lost or proven “false” by later bad behavior. Believe in Jesus, the person is saved, no matter what.
Luther didn’t believe that.
MLD, you said that commitment proves their salvation. You said it in 189
In addition that Luther believed that the works of water baptism were required for salvation. Luther didn’t believe the Gospel of grace.
Andy, how do you do this
I said “But know one thing – sin is never an issue in the salvation question.
You denied it by saying “The typical reformed double speak”.
Then you come back and say “I believe that all sins are taken care of on the cross. 100%, it is finished.”
I will give you time to consider what you really believe as you are obviously having trouble expressing it here.
“MLD, you said that commitment proves their salvation. You said it in 189”
Would you please cut and paste what you think I said – because I did not use the word salvation. I will wait.
MLD, you were the one that said in 189, that all sins are paid for, yet their later commitment (or lack thereof) can prove them an unbeliever. You are inconsistent, and that is the double speak.
I don’t believe that later commitment (or lack thereof) can prove them an unbeliever. Once a person believes in Jesus, they are saved forever, no matter what. Because Jesus paid it all.
MLD, in your 189, you brought up forgiven sins, and then you brought up need for commitment. If you weren’t tying it to salvation, you have a funny way of expressing that.
MLD doesn’t get hurt feelings.
In addition that Luther believed that the works of water baptism were required for salvation. Luther didn’t believe the Gospel of grace.
Nope – you are wrong again. You know you make this too easy.
Baptism is not a work we do, baptism is a gift God delivers to us.
MLD, your 206 is pathetic. Baptism is a work. Luther believed it was required, so he didn’t believe the Gospel, and neither does your pastor.
Andy,
“MLD, you were the one that said in 189, that all sins are paid for, yet their later commitment (or lack thereof) can prove them an unbeliever. You are inconsistent, and that is the double speak.”
I didn’t say any of that.
As I requested, go back up and copy / paste where I said that. It is a simple request that even someone like you can do.
This is what happens when a person names themselves for a man (Luther).
MLD, once again, Luther believed water baptism was required, so he didn’t believe the Gospel, and neither does your pastor.
Hopkins, your staff page is hilarious. Love the secondary pics.
“This is what happens when a person names themselves for a man (Luther).”
OUCH those ad hominems are killing me. 🙂
Hopkins, do you still sin? What sins do you struggle with?
“Hopkins, do you still sin? What sins do you struggle with?”
That is a stupid question and shows your lack of maturity. What if someone came up and asked your wife that questions?
Rather it illustrates that even though Steve Hopkins says he isn’t a sinner in the same manner as Coy…he’s still “in sin” just different ones.
My wife’s biggest sin was marrying me, everyone knows that…no one needs to ask her. But, she can’t resist the good lovin’ know what I mean.
Andy,
The gospel “16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
I know you will know deny scripture and explain it away.
Let me ask – must one be born again to be saved? Do you do your own born againing or do you receive your bornagaining/ Think about it.
RB LOL 😉
MLD, so you take verse 16 and ignore the second part of it, which has only unbelief as the cause of damnation. Plus, you ignore the countless verses that say how to be saved, that never include water baptism. So, you do indeed believe the “gospel” of Luther, but not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
RiBo!!
Andy,
First off, John 3 says that we are already condemned – so we are not speaking of condemnation – we are speaking about what saves you and the verse is clear – “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,”
Hey look – “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,”
This just shows that you are a gnostic who does not believe that Jesus uses physical means to save people. Again, we are different.
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
So, this is how men (or women) can collaborate to hide or cover up something. Or defend it. Or pretend it doesn’t exist. God sees it as an agreement between them, which is really a very deliberate thing.
I often think people protect others because they fear their own faults or sins being discovered.
MLD wrote: “Again, we are different”
You can say that for sure. I don’t believe that you have the true Gospel. Because you insist on works for salvation (baptism). Luther is your teacher.
The Bible tells me that faith alone in Jesus without works, is what saves. Baptism is a work, so it cannot be added to salvation. To add it, would mean not believing the Gospel. But instead would mean trusting in your own works (baptism).
Andy, I know your tradition frowns on studying history, but check it out. Christian archeology shows infants were baptized as early as the 2nd century.
It wasn’t Luther who changed the baptism game plan it was your buddies the Anabaptist’s in the 16th century
MLD, so you have to go running to supposed “history” and attempts at “archaeology” in order to desperately hold up your belief system? You don’t believe in the Bible alone.
I do believe in the Bible alone.
No, you guys do baptism as a work – as an obligation to be obedient. As I said, we receive baptism as a gift delivered from God.
As I said, you see no physical means being used by God to deliver salvation – to you it just comes out of the air.
But i can live with the difference.
MLD wrote: :No, you guys do baptism as a work – as an obligation to be obedient. As I said, we receive baptism as a gift delivered from God”
The Bible never says that about baptism. Never calls it a “gift from God”.
MLD wrote: “As I said, you see no physical means being used by God to deliver salvation – to you it just comes out of the air”
Because believing in Jesus is in the heart, not an outward act.
MLD wrote: “But i can live with the difference”
Well I can’t and won’t. Either Jesus Christ is correct, or Martin Luther is correct. Since they contradict, they can’t both be right.
I go with Jesus.
Andy, you must be one of those guys who believes you can be a Christian without the Holy Spirit then.
Look, as I said, God delivers gift through baptism. Oh, I hate to disappoint – but it is in the Bible. Now again, you will have to deny scripture to make your point.
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ”
OOOOPS! what is that? Is that a delivery of gift through your baptism??? Oh, I think it is. What is it? “and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
I sure hope you didn’t with hold the holy spirit from your kids or grand kids. That would be cruel – wouldn’t it?
Baptism wasn’t called a gift there, MLD. The Holy Spirit is a gift, but not the baptism.
And the repenting led to forgiveness and the Holy Spirit, not the baptism. The baptism is outward.
The thief on the cross was never baptized, the Ethiopian eunuch wasn’t allowed to be baptized until he was already saved, and the clincher:
THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS GIVEN TO THE HOUSE OF CORNELIUS BEFORE THEY WERE BAPTIZED.
Luther loses.
LOL – “Because believing in Jesus is in the heart, not an outward act.”
Here is God’s view of your heart – “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
MLD, per your 229 and rejection of Romans 10:10, I can see why you are working for salvation. But it won’t save you. You need to believe in Jesus from the heart, and not add your baptism.
Andy – take a reading course.
“Baptism wasn’t called a gift there, MLD. The Holy Spirit is a gift, but not the baptism.”
I said gift was delivered through baptism – not that baptism was the gift.
You are bad using scripture to disprove scripture – that is funny. OK, I crossed out all my verses in my Bible.
MLD, your 225 has you saying that baptism is a “gift”.
Try again.
So are you saying that you have to say certain words to be saved? How many words? How sincere do you have to be? Do you need to scrunch up your face so people know that you are sincere when you say words that “work” your salvation.
You do believe in works.
MLD, I never said to say words to be saved. A person would likely inevitably say something to confirm that they believed in the heart (a la the thief on the cross).
And don’t forget, the house of Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.
“MLD, your 225 has you saying that baptism is a “gift”.” We receive the gifts that come through baptism – look, it doesn’t matter, you have already denied about 30 bible verse trying to prove your gnostic point.
When you speak your salvation into existence as you said, does that mean you are a name it and claim it kind of guy. Perhaps that is what I don’t understand.
MLD, you are Martin Luther’s disciple. That says it all. Whatever Luther said, you say.
We all know Luther was more right than Jesus, of course!
One last thing and then I need to run for a while. In Acts 8 where do you see that the Ethiopian was saved before baptism. If you look at it, it seems as if baptism was a big part of Phillips message – so as the Ethiopian is pondering what Phil said, he sees the water and want s to receive salvation and the holy spirit through water baptism.
I see absolutely nothing in the passage indicating he was saved before that – in fact I think the reason the Holy Spirit kept Phil on the scene was to complete the job.
And you can play with my screen moniker all you want. You use it only tohide that you have nothing of relevance to say.
MLD, just remember again, the house of Cornelius was given the Holy Spirit before baptism.
I must be missing something with your the house of Cornelius stuff.
The Lutheran position is that baptism is necessary by not absolutely necessary. God saves in other ways through his means.
Let me ask you this – is hearing God’s word necessary to salvation?
“The Lutheran position is that baptism is necessary by not absolutely necessary. God saves in other ways through his means”
That’s funny. Necessary but not absolutely necessary. I’m looking for the Bible verse…. still looking…. nope.
And what “other means”? Goodness. You have a complicated system there.
For me, it is believe in Jesus (John 6:47), done.
A Pastor wrote:#15 “Bob Coy has been stripped of ministry, must reconcile his marriage, his children, families, etc… All indications are that he has repented. I wonder what Paul would say to modern bloggers continuing to attack him in the public media, to drag things on without insight into his heart, his response, or the efforts of his local church to discipline/restore. I wonder if Paul would tell us to shut up and let the church deal with it.”
I hear you “Pastor”, but I’d just like to say that part of the difficulty in responding biblically and defending ‘that’ response biblically is the fact that CCFL has done a very poor job of explaining what happened.
Was Bob caught and chose to “resign” instead of face the truth publicly? Did Bob confess voluntarily and begging for help? For anyone who doesn’t remember, CCFL publicly paraded Bob’s brother, Jim, on stage for his “moral failing”. CCFL should demonstrate a much stronger and sobering tone about their strict allegiance to the Word of God than their love and affection for a man.
“For me, it is believe in Jesus”
You did not answer my question – do you believe that in order to be saved, one must hear God’s word?
CCFL wrote: “Did Bob confess voluntarily”
I don’t believe he did, no.
His last facebook post before he was out, was, “Looking forward to the beach baptisms in May!”
Does that sound like a man that is planning to step down?
“You did not answer my question – do you believe that in order to be saved, one must hear God’s word?”
Make life simple on yourself, MLD. I quoted God’s Word to make my point.
@Andy #224
Now that you mention it, I recall hearing/reading that Bob made mention of looking forward to beach baptisms.
One interesting question. I read that BOA required a $5M policy on Bob in connection with BOA loans/credit. Any finance gurus in here that can answer whether BOA would have had a “moral clause” tied to interest rates or payoff dates, or whatever? Is it possible CCFL is only stating “moral failure” to prevent triggering a moral clause?
Last I heard they had $20M in loans outstanding.
At this rate, MLD will beg Ribo to talk to him by Fri 🙂
Covered, LOL!!! 😀
I rescind my # 21….. it appears Mr. Mondok was serious.
Bottome line is this:
Anyone still putting Pastors on a pedastol and then getting all depressed because they feel let down when these “MEN” fall are responsible for their own idiocy in not looking to Jesus only, who said call no man teacher. These women that fell under Bob Coy’s spell because he was the “Pastor” are just as guilty because they trusted Man instead of the Lord. It’s their fault for being star struck cuz this guy had a title. Yes Bob will have the stricter judgment as he claimed to be a teacher. But these women are by no means guiltless. Unrepentant of, they will go to Hell for their adultery. They can’t blame Bob when they go before God. It’s called personal responsibility people. No one is exempt from it.
Word on the street is that Sol Rod is leading a sensitivity workshop next week in FTL…
I must say, in a way I agree with SolRod.
The women are guilty also.
We can say that is was all about BC misusing power and position, but we all know that there are women out there who go after men in power and position.
They used to be called gold diggers.
Women like this are not guiltless.
So, unless we know the full situation, I don’t feel right just letting the women “off the hook”
Better to place your pity with the wife and children.
It’s funny, several people last week were saying that it is so hard for these celebrities because all these women are just throwing themselves at you.
I don’t know about others, but I find those kind of women not attractive at all – something slimey about them.
I read that BOA required a $5M policy on Bob in connection with BOA loans/credit. Any finance gurus in here that can answer whether BOA would have had a “moral clause” tied to interest rates or payoff dates, or whatever? Is it possible CCFL is only stating “moral failure” to prevent triggering a moral clause?
——————————————————————
I doubt it but the loans are all baloon loans so they are called or renewed when due. If BOA required life ins on Coy, that would cause concern that they will be willing to renew those loans. The finances are online and I think the loans are over 30 million not just 20 The first 3 million is due this year
Hey Steve Hopkins!
Great to see you!
Gonna play some guitar tomorrow night, join with a group in worship. I’ll think of you fondly.
=)
Gonna be hard to pay off those loans with Coy down. CCFL is in big trouble.
CCFtL can’t just bring in another Vegas showman and pack the house?
why would a church need $30 million??????!?!?!? What the Hell!There are children all across the states, the world -starving,need clothing, need beds, and meds… and a church NEEDS $30 million?????????????? Are the carpets made of gold? sounds systems, coffee shops…..all more important? sigh 🙁
Michael, your #3, you broke the – don’t talk about it rule, Pastors Perspective 7 April 2014.
No prayer for you.
Steve Wright said –
“Considering I just wrote an article to offer advice to other pastors and churches, I trust the difference is obvious between a pastor from another church telling a second church what they must do, versus making suggestions, and sharing experiences and ideas”
This is a perfect definition of the CCA regional. Its function is to support the ‘Senior Pastor’.
CCA main is to support the brand.
Who does the congregant go to? The no talk rule?
Steve Wright, you wrote a paper (entitled “10 Keys To Pastoral Ministry”) on pastoral conduct in support of the pastor lead church, but with salaries on the line, nepotism, leadership positions, and friendships that could cloud a fair hearing, shouldn’t procedures also be put down in writing to protect congregants from abusive situations.
Who should be recused? Anyone and everyone who’s judgment would be clouded as listed in the previous paragraph.
What is the process?
Is it just trust us? No.
Everything is supposed to done decently and orderly.
If it can be trusted why can’t it be put on paper?
Dusty, CCFL looks like Disneyland and they have 100 employees and the production quality of the weekly shows is awesome. That’s what 30 mil buys you.
Michael, is the only recourse starting a blog?
It shouldn’t be, but they serve a purpose for sure, yours had shed much needed light.
And talking about it helps others to learn and understand.
Q, b/c most in CC don’t want the accountability, they want to run their Franchise however they want.
Why did they delete all of Coy’s messages and anything to do with him?
It makes you think he owned all the rights to his stuff.
Even the cruiseline that had a video of him speaking in Israel is deleted.
They wipe him off the face of the earth and then the people want him back.
How does that all happen so quickly?
Now I am wondering about his brother.
On his brother’s church website he says he has been saved 30 years and a Sr Pastor for 26.
BC was saved in 1980,and his brother led him to the Lord so I guess those figure on the websites are at least 4 years old if they were saved in the same year.
If that’s so then he would be a Sr. Pastor for 30 years now.
I don’t know how long he was at CCFL with his brother, (then he was thrown out–don’t know how long he was out of Pastorhood)- but he was not a Sr. Pastor there and he only has had his own church since 2000-14 yrs.
It just doesn’t add up.
It makes you wonder who you can believe.
RiBo- I think the employees are 300-500 , the Pastors alone now are 31. Was 21 when we were there.
They have a “media Pastor” probably have a “janitorial Pastor ” as well.
Anonymous, my bad, I meant 1,000 employees (per one of the articles on CCFL). Thanks for the correction.
That may be both the church and the school-as of when we left it was 300 for the church. Wasn’t meaning to correct you Alex!
Funny someone we know from the “inside” today spoke about how much damage control there is going to be there. I guess that’s all they are worried about.
Anonymous, no problem on my end, I’m glad you clarified and the damage control doesn’t surprise me, they have $30 million in loans to pay and those staffers and pastors on salary have jobs to protect. It’s a business.
But they have 129 million in assets right?
RB,
“Q, b/c most in CC don’t want the accountability, they want to run their Franchise however they want.”
You don’t get it – 99.9% of the attenders don’t want to know what’s up – they go for the good time. I will bet if you walked up to the 99.9% and said, let’s go look at the books, they would give you a stare and walk away.
When I go to a ballgame or a concert – do I care how the production gets to the level it is at? Do I care where the money goes that I spent? Hell no.
why would these people care? They don’t.
Darn Sorry about the name…can Michael delete…
MLD
You are absolutely right. They don’t care-they say it’s going to God.
In the end, I don’t think most CC attenders care if it’s going up someone’s nose.
I will stick my neck out a bit before retiring.
I believe the problems started with CCFL when they moved to the new location. Prior to that the church was in a warehouse. PB never asked for $ except once a yr in November.
When they moved and he began the fund raising to build the new sanctuary he started asking for money. At first you could see how uncomfortable he was with that. Then it became easy and he used to criticize the church that only 5 % were tithing and if I remember correctly he said that 95% of that 5% were giving less than 1,000.00 a year. Someone can correct me if my memory is wrong. He seemed hurt. And took it out on the congregation.
Maybe the expenses were increasing and he had to start putting pressure.I remember he said that the AC alone cost 30,000.00 a month. Again if that’s wrong please correct me.
I just think things changed with the new place. Anyone who has never been there would be impressed. A really beautiful place. Someone I knew donated a fish tank. Very expensive like what you would see in the mall. He ended up bankrupt since he donated so much when he became a believer. They had professional artists paint characters and themes on the walls. the kids loved being there.
Then the school..so much so fast.
Maybe he felt tremendous pressure and that led him to seek ways to get away. Not to excuse his behavior but it is said that men have affairs when they are depressed.
Maybe the funny guy on the stage was not as happy as he let on, and very stressed.
Imagine having to carry a church that size and be indirectly responsible for all those employees.
Having his asst Pastors definitely gave him lots of free time though. I remember a period where he was only there on weekends for months and then he would take off over 6 weeks in the summer.
Well, I think it just all got too big for him. And in a way I feel sorry for him.
He used to talk about not building bigger barns but that what he was doing.
And he was not interested in any opinions on the matter.
He was bothered so much by negative e-mails that he stopped reading them and directed all his e-mails to staff. He made it a point to discuss this from the pulpit.
I remember a time he responded to mine. And he was quite gracious. But that was a long time ago.
I am praying for him. I have been for many years. I did not think God would let him get away with what he did with our family and how he hurt us. He did not directly hurt us, but he was aware and let other do that.
God has let me know that there will be a time it will all change.
It needed to change and I am praying for brokenness-something we all have to go through to be what God wants us to be, and none of us is exempt,
@Anonymous #273
The wheels started to fall off when Bob moved away from true exposition – verse by verse, chapter by chapter. It is little wonder now why Bob never plunged the depths of hard-hitting epistles, opting instead for Genesis over and over and over.
I actually think CCFL has a chance to be reborn as a church that is firmly planted on the Word of God where the Bible is taught with passion for the blessed hope we have in Christ Jesus – not the pastor… where we come and mourn and lament our sin and see ourselves for what we are – wretched sinners saved by grace alone in Christ alone – and that His will and purpose for our lives isn’t a job, money, pleasure, etc., but rather to be known by Him and to worship Him in truth and Spirit – operating our thoughts and action in accordance with the Word, thirsting and hungering for His righteousness.
If they can do that, Bob’s tenure will long be forgotten and remembered only as a small footnote on Wikipedia.
Lunar eclipses always happen on a full moon.
I believe (check me to be sure) that the four pilgrimage feasts happen on full moons because the Jewish calendar is lunar and the Lord set them up that way.
There are only 12 to 13 full moons in a year and that gives good odds that a lunar eclipse will land on a feast day quite often.
Not buying the blood moon thing, but here is a picture of a lunar eclipse I took in the 90’s. Took 16 exposures to get it.
http://derekthornton71.blogspot.com/2014/04/lunar-eclipse.html
RB, they do like a pretense of accountability.
This is a sad situation, getting sadder by the minute.
Bob Coy is responsible for his situation. James tells us so – James 1:14: But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. NKJV
I would suspect that many of those who are defending him and blaming the devil for his situation are guilty of the same – Romans 1:32: who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. NKJV
A friend of Charles Spurgeon was asked if a man who had committed moral failure could be restored to the ministry. He replied, “Only when his repentance is more notorious than his sin.” Thus, most, if not all who commit such sins should never be restored to the ministry.
The guilty run from one who got caught lest they be exposed. Or, they circle the wagons protecting one of their own. Either way, theirs is a lying vanity.
God desires to extend mercy; however, those who profess to know the word know that mercy is extended in real repentance. The transforming power of the Gospel should be evidenced by those in the pulpit before it is evidenced by those in the pew. Either way, eventually, real character will be known.
“I remember he said that the AC alone cost 30,000.00 a month”
Anonymous, I have heard similar, made feel like I was breathing borrowed air.
It was, for the guy talking, others paid.
Manipulated air is not good air.
“These things says tHe who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is.
And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14
But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of uBalaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, vto eat things sacrificed to idols, wand to commit sexual immorality.
15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, 7which thing I hate
. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and xwill fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden ymanna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone za new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’
I am posting anonymously for proper reasons as I am a pastor, and I have it on record that Bob has been rebuked and continues to be rebuked by his peers. Almost relentlessly. Only time will tell if he is repentant. We will not know for months or years. The damage has been done. A pastor will receive the stricter judgment. That’s the risk and rules you accept when you accept the call. When the CCFL board “bleached” BC from the website, they had every right and good reason to do so. No one here can say that CCFL’s board covered up or had BC’s back in letting him slide. No one can say there is no accountability in CC. They cut the cancer out of the church decisively. Sin is serious. Ongoing/prolonged sin & deception by a pastor will never be tolerated by God fearing men who are authentic in their respective ministries. I applaud the board at CCFL. God will not be mocked. Please forgive me, but the minutia you are trying to parse out on this thread is vanity. Unfortunately, you know so little about so much.
“but the minutia you are trying to parse out on this thread is vanity”
Yes, it’s all so trivial, and prideful.
“Unfortunately, you know so little about so much.”
That is true, but not as much about CC as you think.
“accept the call” Or vocation, profession, occupation…
Yawn.
Reading this blog is like being stuck in a corner of a theater where a brawl has broken out. The live production of Les Miserables is hard to follow and the manager has given up and gone out for a smoke. Can’t tell where the production ends and the audience begins. It has helped take my mind off my petty problems today. Some great ruminations here as well.
Should I vote with my feet? nyuk nyuk.
My favorite lines: “A friend of Charles Spurgeon was asked if a man who had committed moral failure could be restored to the ministry. He replied, “Only when his repentance is more notorious than his sin.” Thus, most, if not all who commit such sins should never be restored to the ministry.”
The brats are swinging and someone was outed, but the manager let it stand.
Good show!
“When the CCFL board “bleached” BC from the website, they had every right and good reason to do so. No one here can say that CCFL’s board covered up or had BC’s back in letting him slide. No one can say there is no accountability in CC. They cut the cancer out of the church decisively. Sin is serious.”
That line rung a bell.
“The Rev. Jimmy Swaggart, who last year condemned a fellow television evangelist, Jim Bakker, as ”a cancer on the body of Christ,” today confessed to sins of his own and begged to be forgiven.” NYTimes Feb 22,1988.
Oh well
“Should I vote with my feet? nyuk nyuk.”
You did, you voted to jump in. 🙂
That was very reverend of Swaggart to cry. Whole lotta cryin’ goin on.
Every day that goes by without a believable confession from Coy is a spot on the reputation of all that is CC. imho
Pastor grieving in FL. This is my translation of what I hear you saying. ” shame on you.Trust us who are in the know . Only we have the knowledge and the right.”
Really, why did the peers allow Bob to buy churches, buy donations and abuse people?
Really, according to Jesus, Bob’s peers should have been the people of CCFTL that he should have immersed himself in humble,lself sacrificial, face to face, heart to heart, back to back fellowship.
Your statement reaks of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
I am posting anonymously for proper reasons as I am a pastor
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I post by my name for proper reasons as I am a pastor.
I offered an opinion only that the purge was a mistake and likewise goes against everything we in CC believe about the power of the word of God to change lives and the power of the Holy Spirit to build a church.
Now, if the media press release explaining the media purge sad ANYTHING like what was stated in post 280, (about cutting out cancers and such) then as I also said, that is all fine and good because the Board can run the church as they see fit. However, they say nothing of the sort…..in fact quite the contrary.
Steve Wright, could you be more vague.
I think I got Gary’s theater fight analogy better.
Actually Wright was clear and Gary was vague. I understand how Gary brings some facetious commentary that may highlight the actions,of key actors in the drama. However executive actions and explanations are worth explaining with precise and accurate detail. Steve does a good job at that.
Grieving with you in Florida, your comment about “no one saying there is no accountability in CC” & “they cut the cancer out of the church decisively” tells me that you are not familiar with this blog. There are many here who know otherwise. The accountability comment was particularly amusing.
Victorious, forgive me, not so. ( I just lost a half hour’s thoughtful careful typing) arrgh!
Steve, I used the term “cancer” not them. Respectfully, the purge fit the transgression. There is great indignation towards BC and his silence is very telling to me as to where he is spiritually. This is not a one, or two time indiscretion. The staff and board have to be beyond taxed as they have been betrayed and played beyond imagination. Silence is not bad, they are probably fearful of the future and need God’s mercy like never before.
If we are a bit honest with ourselves we want a pound of BC’s flesh and rightfully so. It is going to take months or years to make sense and move on. Please pray and learn the ugly and hard lessons from another’s sin.
I am not qualified to speak for CCA, CCFTL only Jesus, I am a CC pastor and do not want another flogging because “one of ours” has been living a lie for years. It is probably very safe to say that Bob will never be back at CC. It’s all on him. Lord, have mercy.
Covered, I am very familiar with this blog. I think you are bent toward your own experience and opinion. I am different from you. Can you accept that? There is nothing amusing to me about any of this. Glad you are amused.
GWYIF – My hope is that the explanations would fit the actions as I think the Body of Christ deserves that always. If the church had taken the same actions but with your cancer explanation, at least it would make sense. But they didn’t go that route at all. In all honesty, the public media message is one of the most bizarre things I have ever read – and I never even listened to Coy. I can certainly understand why so many who did learn from him are outraged or at least confused.
One thing is for sure, I don’t know the details about where any of these people are with the Lord at the moment – or just how ugly it is behind the scenes. So some of what people may want to see in terms of accountability, confession, repentance may not even be possible due to the current state of mind of one or more of the individuals.
I’ve seen my share….
Steve, there has only been one statement I am aware of. You are right in that many might well be left wanting for details. My heart is with BC’s family, then the Congregation, then the leadership, then the church outside that church.
GWYIF wrote: “I applaud the board at CCFL”
I do too. Quite frankly, knowing some of the practices that have been done at Calvary Chpaels, the fact that they cut him and removed association with him even in teachings, shows that they are taking this seriously. So that to me, either means that there are Calvary Chapels that will be serious about pastoral sin, or it means that it’s so bad, that they had to take drastic measures. Maybe both.
CCFL wrote: “The wheels started to fall off when Bob moved away from true exposition – verse by verse, chapter by chapter. It is little wonder now why Bob never plunged the depths of hard-hitting epistles, opting instead for Genesis over and over and over”
Yes, there are few Calvary Chapels that will ever teach line by line on a Sunday morning, just doesn’t happen. Pretty silly for a church that claims “we teach the Bible line by line!”
The wheels came off in Bob’s heart long before they manifested themselves in his sin. Compromise always starts slowly, a little here a little there, and before one knows it, he is in deep trouble. The problem is always in the heart. What is manifest comes from the heart. God help us all to guard our hearts.
And lets not forget Diane. She is going through hell right now with very few comforters. Bob has betrayed her more than he can ever know.
Why is it so many want to find blame somewhere outside Bob C or look for some sort of key which set him in the wrong direction. This one is as easy as can be, Bob did it because he is a human, which is the same reason we all sin.
Some one please go back and read what James has to say about what causes these failures to follow God, no magic required or satan even required.
I also think a review of what Paul taught about when elders are caught in sin. Maybe it will put a bit of fear in us when we start to consider doing then same thing.
a pastor said “I personally don’t think that CC pastors are the only people who can use Moses as a leadership model. If you feel called to pastor, start a church and see if anyone follows you.”
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Looks like the Moses Model is alive and well even if the moniker goes away. Its this casual idea of just going out and starting a church that doesn’t sit well with many of us. Its not only being called but I believe being SENT that is important in starting a church plant. If I were Shimon Peres or president Obama maybe I would consider Moses as someone to emulate in regards to delegation of a nation but not being a pastor of a local congregation. Its just not rightly dividing the Word to take an old covenant figure that was the leader of Israel and use that as the governing model for a new covenant local pastor. Its like using an “apple” to describe an “orange” when you already have a perfect apple we can us as our model. It makes no sense.
Andrew:
“Looks like the Moses Model is alive and well even if the moniker goes away. Its this casual idea of just going out and starting a church that doesn’t sit well with many of us. Its not only being called but I believe being SENT that is important in starting a church plant. ”
I was being tongue in cheek to make the point that we don’t own the principle; we feel it is Biblical thus available and appropriate.
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“If I were Shimon Peres or president Obama maybe I would consider Moses as someone to emulate in regards to delegation of a nation but not being a pastor of a local congregation. Its just not rightly dividing the Word to take an old covenant figure that was the leader of Israel and use that as the governing model for a new covenant local pastor.”
Our country would definitely be in better shape if our secular leaders led by Biblical leadership principles.
I believe you are being a bit short-sighted in accusing me of not rightly dividing the Word. For instance:
(1) Moses was not a king; he was a shepherd of God’s people. The NT word ‘pastor’ comes from the Greek ‘poimen’, which means shepherd.
(2) 1 Corinthians 6:1-11 describes Israel’s exodus, following God in the cloud (under Moses’ leadership, aided by a board of elders), yet drinking from the rock (which was Christ). It then says that all of this happened for our (the church’s) benefit, for our example and was written down for our (the church’s) instruction.
The Bible clearly states that this specific part of Israel’s history was written for the church’s instruction. It goes as far as to say not to grumble and complain. Do you think perhaps he was talking about Israel’s grumbling– in which God said, “Moses, don’t worry about it. They’re not grumbling against you. They’re grumbling against me.”? (I know, this’ll bring down hell’s fire on me for posting that on this site. I’m merely saying that God has shown example for those who needlessly complain about ***Godly*** leadership that are ***following Him***– not complaining against ungodly leadership or asking for accountability.)
So, you propose that it’s wrong to apply this to the NT church. The Bible specifically states that that was why it was written down. I’m not trying to attack or belittle, but the point needs to be made.
Who’s rightly dividing the Word?
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“Its like using an “apple” to describe an “orange” when you already have a perfect apple we can us as our model. It makes no sense.”
No. It’s more like using two apples to better understand apples– because the vinedresser told us to use both apples.
The ‘Moses Model’ in no way contradicts the elder-led church.
GWYIF, I am not the least bit amused about a man presumed to be called of God falling. What did amuse me about your comment is saying, “no one can say there is no accountability in CC”
Just because Bob stepped down, that has nothing to do with accountability in CC and if you are a CC pastor you know this is problem.
Edit to my above post. I mis-typed. That was 1 Corinthians 10:1-11.
Sorry for the confusion.
“we feel it is Biblical thus available and appropriate.”
I hope you aren’t serious! If so you’re ability to “rightly divide the word” is being done with rose colored glasses and a dull butter knife.
Paul taught, to a bunch of non-Jews, a very Jewish way of setting up leadership when he established the “elder model.” If one were to read the Torah one might find such leadership being penned by Moses as the principal for leadership. Additionally that form of leadership was mirrored when Acts 15 is examined closely.
This thread has slipped into the abyss.
a pastor said, “The ‘Moses Model’ in no way contradicts the elder-led church.”
That really surprised me. I always thought, according to the CC Distinctives, that the MM was that the pastor ran the church, chose his board, but can “hire and fire” the board (often times his elders) as he chooses. I honestly thought that is what CS taught in his books and even gave examples of the pastor asking for the resignations of all the elders and putting in those of his choosing. Could that be called “elder led?” Maybe I have been wrong all this time. Or maybe I have misunderstood.
Perhaps we are talking about 2 different Moses models. I’m not arguing one is right and one is wrong. I am just trying to see your distinction.
Bob:
“I hope you aren’t serious! If so you’re ability to “rightly divide the word” is being done with rose colored glasses and a dull butter knife.”
How so? 1 Corinthians 9, Paul was writing to those who questioned his authority. In 1 Corinthians 9:3-7, he defended himself, his work and his right to serve, plant a vineyard (church) and tend (shepherded) a flock.
In verses 8-12, he defended his right to be paid for his ministry by appealing to Moses’ law, and saying it was written for our (the church’s) benefit.
Verses 13-14, he appealed to the pay of the priests to support the pay of those in ministry.
Verses 19-23, he defended his ministry and style of ministry.
Verses 24-26, he stated that he lived a life of discipline that he would not be disqualified from ministry.
Immediately in chapter 10, as his very next thoughts and continuation of the same argument, he uses Moses, the exodus, the cloud, the feeding and the water from the rock as Biblical example of his ministry, and purposefully stated more than once that this was written for our (the church’s) instruction, then cautioned people against grumbling. He used the people who grumbled against God through Moses, to instruct the people who were grumbling against his authority and ministry– all within the contextual argument defending his ministry against those who would tear him down.
Note. He wasn’t just defending his rights as an apostle. He was defending his right to (a) plant churches, (b) pastor churches, (c) preach, and (d) get paid to do so. IN so doing, he made direct comparison to Moses’ leadership and (again) stated that those thing were written down to instruct us (apparently in these specific areas!).
Pray tell how I am interpreting this with “rose colored glasses” and a “dull butter knife”.
Nonnie:
“a pastor said, “The ‘Moses Model’ in no way contradicts the elder-led church.”
That really surprised me. I always thought, according to the CC Distinctives, that the MM was that the pastor ran the church, chose his board, but can “hire and fire” the board (often times his elders) as he chooses. I honestly thought that is what CS taught in his books and even gave examples of the pastor asking for the resignations of all the elders and putting in those of his choosing. Could that be called “elder led?” Maybe I have been wrong all this time. Or maybe I have misunderstood.
Perhaps we are talking about 2 different Moses models. I’m not arguing one is right and one is wrong. I am just trying to see your distinction.”
Our board can only be fired by a board majority vote. They can fire the pastor for Biblical reasons.
God told Moses to personally select the elders of Israel, according to the qualities he saw in them, that they may stand with him, help him and serve the people.
Numbers 11:16, 17 — 16 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Gather for me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom **you know** to be the elders of the people and officers over them, and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there **with you**. 17 And I will come down and talk with **you** there. And I will take some of the Spirit that is on **you** and put it on them, and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you may not bear it yourself alone.
Paul told Timothy to personally, carefully select his elders, according to qualities that he saw in them, and not do so quickly.
Unless one implies wrongly that the NT model is a congregationally-elected board, I can’t see how the Moses Model contradicts an elder-board-run church.
I like getting the perspective of the CC pastors who post on Michael’s blogs. We need to hear from you all. (I wish I knew who you are as I read each post but I don’t since you all don’t specify and I can’t keep up with who is who). It gives me hope for CC. It confuses me too but that’s not your fault.
Since we’re bring up the Moses model… It was Chuck who defined his Moses model so if we talk about it we must talk about it as defined by him. Michael has dissected the Moses model many times and it’s clear that Chuck’s Moses model has little to do with the real Moses and what he modeled. The first time I read one of Michael’s blogs on the Moses model I made an extensive list of the differences between the two. (Maybe it was on Alex’s blog.) I won’t do that here, I’ll just say that Chuck’s call was nothing like Moses’ call. Chuck’s experience was nothing like Moses’ experience. Chuck’s leading was nothing like Moses’ leading. You cannot compare the lives of the two. Chuck needed a label for his style of church government. In time I believe it will be better known as Chuck’s model.
“I was being tongue in cheek to make the point that we don’t own the principle; we feel it is Biblical thus available and appropriate.”
Thanks a pastor for the clarification! The question is available and appropriate for what? Are you referring to a how a local pastor governs the local church or are you suggesting this Biblical principal be expanded in the church to include multi-sites, regional areas and eventually national leadership and than global?
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“Do you think perhaps he was talking about Israel’s grumbling– in which God said, “Moses, don’t worry about it. They’re not grumbling against you. They’re grumbling against me.”? (I know, this’ll bring down hell’s fire on me for posting that on this site. I’m merely saying that God has shown example for those who needlessly complain about ***Godly*** leadership that are ***following Him***– not complaining against ungodly leadership or asking for accountability.)”
I’m convinced that Moses ( if you will) was a shadow or a type of Christ that was to come. There was only one Moses over the entire Israel. Just as there is Christ over the entire church. We don’t need to go backwards. There are millions of pastors in the world but only one Jesus so the entire Moses Model for a pastor seems to fall apart here at the seams. Anyway, we can agree to disagree, however I think you have articulated well that the Moses Model is still very much alive and well in CC land and for this reason I really appreciate you posting!
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“The ‘Moses Model’ in no way contradicts the elder-led church.”
I think this goes back to what Michael said about the local church. If the Moses Model is confined to a local church than maybe you won’t see much difference but when the local church is really 11 multi-sites and the local church is a Regional area, I would say no to your proposition and I would say the elder-led church is completely different than a Moses Model church.
Andrew:
“Thanks a pastor for the clarification! The question is available and appropriate for what? Are you referring to a how a local pastor governs the local church or are you suggesting this Biblical principal be expanded in the church to include multi-sites, regional areas and eventually national leadership and than global?”
I only have experience with my local church, and none with multi-site. Personally, I lean toward the stance that churches should plant churches– not be ever-expanding. I’m not the biggest fan of multi-site churches.
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“I’m convinced that Moses ( if you will) was a shadow or a type of Christ that was to come. There was only one Moses over the entire Israel. Just as there is Christ over the entire church. We don’t need to go backwards. There are millions of pastors in the world but only one Jesus so the entire Moses Model for a pastor seems to fall apart here at the seams. Anyway, we can agree to disagree, however I think you have articulated well that the Moses Model is still very much alive and well in CC land and for this reason I really appreciate you posting!”
Moses was absolutely a type/shadow of Christ, but not in this example. Paul makes it clear that:
(a) Moses was the example of Godly leadership.
(b) The rock was a shadow/type of Christ. (Paul makes this explicit in 1 Corinthians 10:4. Thus, one man called to lead God’s people, with the help of a ‘board’ of elders, feeding from God, with all drinking from Christ.)
Question: If Moses was the shadow of Christ, why did he sin against God in his anger by robbing God of His glory? For those of us in the ‘Moses Model’, this is a stern warning, brother.
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“I think this goes back to what Michael said about the local church. If the Moses Model is confined to a local church than maybe you won’t see much difference but when the local church is really 11 multi-sites and the local church is a Regional area, I would say no to your proposition and I would say the elder-led church is completely different than a Moses Model church.”
Perhaps. I pray for the day when our church grows to the point of splitting and planting a new church.
Personally, my mantra is that of John the Baptist: “I must decrease that He [Christ] may increase.”
Blessings, brother.
a pastor, I honestly thought I read that in some book that Chuck Smith advised a pastor to just fire his board and choose new men that would follow his vision. I always thought that was part of the Moses Model. I thought I heard that Skip asked for the resignations of all the board at Oceanhills. MLD could chime in on that. (In my opinion that could not be called “elder led.”)
However, I can see a difference in what YOU are saying is going on at your church. Thanks!
Gary:
“Since we’re bring up the Moses model… It was Chuck who defined his Moses model so if we talk about it we must talk about it as defined by him. Michael has dissected the Moses model many times and it’s clear that Chuck’s Moses model has little to do with the real Moses and what he modeled. The first time I read one of Michael’s blogs on the Moses model I made an extensive list of the differences between the two. (Maybe it was on Alex’s blog.) I won’t do that here, I’ll just say that Chuck’s call was nothing like Moses’ call. Chuck’s experience was nothing like Moses’ experience. Chuck’s leading was nothing like Moses’ leading. You cannot compare the lives of the two. Chuck needed a label for his style of church government. In time I believe it will be better known as Chuck’s model.”
I respectfully disagree. I follow Jesus Christ and model our ministry from the Word of God. I am not a Chuck disciple, and I don’t shepherd Chuck’s church. I have the dangerous, gracious privilege to shepherd Christ’s flock as an under-shepherd. It is to Him that I will answer, and by His Word that I will shepherd. When I see Him face to face, Chuck won’t be of any help to me. He’ll be answering for himself.
Blessings…
“Question: If Moses was the shadow of Christ, why did he sin against God in his anger by robbing God of His glory? For those of us in the ‘Moses Model’, this is a stern warning, brother.”
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This is a real easy one. The type and shadow is never perfect and is not the real thing. Adam was a type of Christ. But boy did he blow it and we are living in those consequences now. That is why Jesus came as the second Adam and why we don’t need to look to the shadows as much as to the real thing or I should say the real perfect person (Jesus).
Nonnie:
“a pastor, I honestly thought I read that in some book that Chuck Smith advised a pastor to just fire his board and choose new men that would follow his vision. I always thought that was part of the Moses Model. I thought I heard that Skip asked for the resignations of all the board at Oceanhills. MLD could chime in on that. (In my opinion that could not be called “elder led.”)”
You did see that example and Chuck did write it. I still don’t see it as unBiblical. But our board is not set up that way because we know that those bylaws can infact lead to abuses of power. The original ‘Moses Model’ in scripture had the ability for abuse of power. That doesn’t mean it was not Biblical.
“However, I can see a difference in what YOU are saying is going on at your church. Thanks!”
Thank you. 🙂
Andrew:
“This is a real easy one. The type and shadow is never perfect and is not the real thing. Adam was a type of Christ. But boy did he blow it and we are living in those consequences now. That is why Jesus came as the second Adam and why we don’t need to look to the shadows as much as to the real thing or I should say the real perfect person (Jesus).”
If you understand the study of Biblical types, it’s not quite so easy for you. Biblical types are meant to teach us principles, and are not the exact representation. However, we have to understand what was being taught in each example of the type. You can’t just ‘willy-nilly” ( technical term 🙂 ) go applying types. From your example:
If Adam was a ‘type’ of Christ, what was he meant to teach us? We can only trust the types that are taught us explicitly in scripture, else we have the ‘thoughts of man’. So, with Adam, in Paul’s explicit use of him, he is not a type. He is an inverse-type. Through Adam, all fell, and through Christ all may be redeemed.
With Moses, he is a type of Christ– in that prophecy promised another prophet like him. But in Paul’s example in 1 Corinthians 10, he is not the type for Christ, because this usage of Moses shows Moses’ failure. And again… In this example, Paul gave the rock that produced water as the explicit type. So, this is not a type of Christ leading the church. This is a historical example of one man, called by God, leading God’s people, with the help of a board of elders, feeding them manna from God, and taking them to Christ as their source of life. It is clearly stated that this historical example was given to the church for the church’s instruction.
Grace and peace to you, brother.
“If Adam was a ‘type’ of Christ, what was he meant to teach us? We can only trust the types that are taught us explicitly in scripture, else we have the ‘thoughts of man’. So, with Adam, in Paul’s explicit use of him, he is not a type. He is an inverse-type. Through Adam, all fell, and through Christ all may be redeemed.”
Actually the inverse-type is very interesting. A shadow is kind of like an inverse. Its like the negative of a photograph. By looking in contrast, you can see Christ. You could probably make a case that all the old testament figures are inverse-types with your example. If It you think about it, Moses with the law was an inverse-type of Christ with the Gospel. The old and new covenants are radically different. You can’t put old wine into new wine skins I believe is what Paul said.
a pastor,
Glad to hear it and I’m sure there are other CC pastors like yourself. BUT if that’s the case, why do you call yourself CC? Why do you identify with that brand?
Andrew:
“Actually the inverse-type is very interesting. A shadow is kind of like an inverse. Its like the negative of a photograph. By looking in contrast, you can see Christ. You could probably make a case that all the old testament figures are inverse-types with your example. If It you think about it, Moses with the law was an inverse-type of Christ with the Gospel. The old and new covenants are radically different. You can’t put old wine into new wine skins I believe is what Paul said.”
I’m actually only a fan of using types that are clearly described as types in scripture.
But here, Paul does not describe Moses as a “type”. He was teaching a history lesson. Now, granted, he used some types to teach the application of the history lesson.
The Red Sea crossing was a type for baptism. The manna was a type for spiritual food being fed by God through Moses. The water from the rock was spiritual drink. The rock was Christ. (But again… The types are clearly and pointedly named, and Christ is a type for the rock– not Moses.)
His example was: These things literally happened, and they were written down for our instruction. He was using these literal historical examples as instruction per an argument about his ministry and leadership. He said: “Hey, look how God worked in the past to instruct us now. The people God were led by God through Moses. They all ate the same spiritual food. They all drank the same spiritual drink.” Important: Paul was doing the exact same thing to defend his ministry planting churches, pastoring flocks, and teaching the word, that CC pastors do today– pointing at the Moses Model.
You previously stated that I was not rightly dividing the Word of God with this application. You are now “typifying” it when the context does not allow, and the text actually disallows your type by naming Christ in the rock– not Moses. You initially stated the comparison can’t be made under the new covenant. When shown this section of scripture making the comparison, you now try to explain it away into vagueries.
Again, I’m not attacking, but I must ask…
Who is rightly dividing the Word? The one who takes it at face value, within it’s textual and historical context (Paul was defending his authority to his detractors in Corinth), or the one who adds to face value by adding some vague “type” that escapes what it clearly says?
Again, peace and blessings to you, brother…
or was it new wine into old wine skins?
“I still don’t see it as unBiblical. But our board is not set up that way because we know that those bylaws can in fact lead to abuses of power. The original ‘Moses Model’ in scripture had the ability for abuse of power. That doesn’t mean it was not Biblical.”
a pastor:
You typically use the scriptures to benefit your view of things. If you go back to the writings of Moses, Torah, which Paul refers to you will find a warning about those who come and claim to be the prophet like Moses. You will also find Jesus is compared to that prophetic statement in the Torah. Additionally Moses was buried in an unknown and unmarked grave so that he would not be worshiped or raised beyond his humble status.
Now to your defense of receiving tithes, you are not a Levite nor do you stand in their position. You also may have missed a historic and quotable statement from the rabbis, “since we receive the Torah without charge we give the torah without charge.” You might also remember Jesus said something similar.
Sir I do not withhold, like Paul states, any man from receiving the due wages for his or her work, including pastoring or anything else related to ministry, but stop twisting the scriptures to raise yourself to high positions not supported by the text.
You are not Moses, the pastor does not stand in the place of Mose, when Moses is taught he is taught from his writings and mine or your interpretations and homilies are just that. I refer to Moses/Torah/OT in my walk through life, I listen to other men to see if I have had a pizza dream or two, and I may even hear what you have to say on a subject, consider it carefully and weigh it according to scripture.
You, Moses? I think not! Any thought you might be Moses, or a modern Levite is a false teaching.
Yes I feel more than strong about it and your Moses Model is the reason I will not step one foot into a CC.
a pastor,
I enjoy your contributions and admire your patience.
Having said that, I think the “Moses Model” as taught by Smith is one of the most twisted, unbiblical, theologically bizarre pieces of ecclesiology ever written.
You cite 1 Cor 10…lets take a look at the actual passage.
“For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”
(1 Corinthians 10:1–13 ESV)
There is nothing, nada, zip, in that passage about ecclesiology.
Paul cites the OT, but he makes the specific applications he’s wanting to be understood from the passage.
I believe the NT teaches a plurality of elders, as first evidenced by Jesus calling 12 to oversee His church…
” I heard that Skip asked for the resignations of all the board at Oceanhills. MLD could chime in on that. (In my opinion that could not be called “elder led.”)”
He didn’t ask for resignations – he fired the board and brought in his outside cronies – of those I remember Raul Ries, Greg Laurie, Franklin Graham and some guy from Albuquerque who owned about 20 McDonald’s and was a board member at some Fundamentalist Christian school.
But skip was somewhat honest – he said he was so well known and powerful that regular church members could not hold him accountable. he needed people of equal power … and the power play began.
MLD,
What Skip said was that the church was “elder infested”…and cleaned house.
Gary:
“a pastor,
Glad to hear it and I’m sure there are other CC pastors like yourself. BUT if that’s the case, why do you call yourself CC? Why do you identify with that brand?”
First: There are. Many of them.
Because I believe it is a Biblical model. I believe in the model. Because I don’t want to be independent. And because I experienced the power of God through the model. I experienced first-hand what God can do in a life and family through Godly, Spirit-led and powered, Bible-teaching, serving leadership in the CC model.
I am a better father, husband, son, brother, friend and Christian in part because of the examples of selfless service that I was given through this ministry model. I will not throw it out because of the failures of some men within this model.
Let me ask you this… And I ask you to answer honestly.
If a pastor/church were to refuse association with a denomination/movement/association just because of abuses and/or failures in that denomination/movement/association, who would they associate with? If absolute perfection is the only acceptable goal, who do they associate with?
Every form of church government is dangerous because every form of church government includes fallen men with human natures. I praise Jesus that He wasn’t afraid of these dangers and chose to establish His church anyway. I praise God that we have the promise that the very gates of hell will not stand against us! 🙂
Blessings to you, sir.
Micahel:
“There is nothing, nada, zip, in that passage about ecclesiology.”
Michael, if you don’t see church leadership in there, then you haven’t considered the context, or the argument that Paul was making. In a follow-up post to defend my position, I quoted and commented on 1 Corinthians 9, section by section. 1 Cor 10 was supporting arguments for his overall argument defending his rights– specifically as a church planting pastor and Bible teacher. If you don’t see the connection, then I don’t know what else to say.
Also please note: That began as a response that the Moses Model could not be applied in the new covenant and that that didn’t have anything to say to us today. Paul said it was all written for the instruction of the church.
“Paul cites the OT, but he makes the specific applications he’s wanting to be understood from the passage.”
Yes he did. That was my point. His specific applications were to support his ministry (specifically listing church planting, pastoring, and teaching the Bible) and shut down his detractors/critics. The specific, applicable examples were: Israel being led by Moses under God, and all eating the same spiritual food and drinking from Christ. He said these things were written for the church’s instruction– (again…) to defend himself and his ministry from critics.
Michael:
“I believe the NT teaches a plurality of elders, as first evidenced by Jesus calling 12 to oversee His church…”
As do I. In practice, I see one man repeatedly instructing one man to hand pick those elders based on Biblical criteria of character. The Moses Model does not contradict this.
a pastor,
I would (and do) want to follow the biblical new testament model of church government but that would have to be within the context of a group who I could see first hand were lovers of Jesus. That’s more important. There are scads of churches who adhere to a new testament style of church government who are spiritually dead or lukewarm. I’ve been to many of them. Many churchgoers settle for mediocrity simply because they don’t take the time and effort to look and to pray for that church. I did. I had to.
Gary:
“I would (and do) want to follow the biblical new testament model of church government but that would have to be within the context of a group who I could see first hand were lovers of Jesus. That’s more important. There are scads of churches who adhere to a new testament style of church government who are spiritually dead or lukewarm. I’ve been to many of them. Many churchgoers settle for mediocrity simply because they don’t take the time and effort to look and to pray for that church. I did. I had to.”
I believe we are in perfect agreement. 🙂
Blessings…
Michael wrote: “What Skip said was that the church was “elder infested”…and cleaned house”
Can anyone explain to me why Skip didn’t just go to San Juan Capistrano/whatever city around there, and just start a church from scratch?
If it was so “infested”, why did he even bother that endeavor? I know this is age-old news, but I always wondered about that.
Again, I’m not attacking, but I must ask…
Who is rightly dividing the Word? The one who takes it at face value, within it’s textual and historical context (Paul was defending his authority to his detractors in Corinth), or the one who adds to face value by adding some vague “type” that escapes what it clearly says?
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The one thing I really agreed with you on is what you said about John the Baptist. Christ must become greater. I must become less. Unfortunately though, I have heard that same thing from many CC pastors and then they go on passionately with their multi-site churches explicitly saying these aren’t church plants but all fall under my senior leadership. It doesn’t make any sense. Now I am glad you are not following this model but this is very typical in CC and they use the Moses Model to justify it. As Gary said, you may want to separate yourself from the Chuck Smith Moses Model and those that practice it because its not exactly what you are teaching with your Moses Model.
a pastor,
1 Cor 9: 24 is a transitional verse as Paul rapidly moves to another subject.
The transition is so jarring that many scholars have posited that 1 Cor 10 actually came from a different letter.
I don’t believe that…but I don’t think your exposition holds water upon close examination.
“As do I. In practice, I see one man repeatedly instructing one man to hand pick those elders based on Biblical criteria of character. The Moses Model does not contradict this.”
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a pastor, you told me tongue and cheek before that I should just go out and start my own church and see if anyone follows. You may be tongue and cheek with me but this is also the reality how many CCs get started. I am not sure how many are church plants from a sending pastor or church body but I would venture to say many individuals just go out on their own and start a church. If what you are saying is true, was there a man that hand picked Chuck that got this entire CC movement going? As far as I am aware, Chuck only reported to God and no man appointed him. To me this kind of sounds like apostle Paul type of experience and language however the apostle Paul had direct revelation from Jesus himself.
Andy:
“Can anyone explain to me why Skip didn’t just go to San Juan Capistrano/whatever city around there, and just start a church from scratch? ”
Just speculating, but I would wager the cost was too high and his chances of success were not good. It should have been easier for Skip to step into a giving church and keep getting his salary and retirement package instead of starting from scratch.
Of course it didn’t work out that way at all, he went back to ABQ in defeat.
I think he came to Ocean Hills because I was there – and I was the Jewel that all pastors search for. 🙂
Michael:
Sorry I can’t share your opinion. I can’t see how it is a transition away from his fitness for ministry, when it immediately returns to his fitness for ministry in vss 26/27.
Blessings…
Andrew:
“a pastor, you told me tongue and cheek before that I should just go out and start my own church and see if anyone follows. You may be tongue and cheek with me but this is also the reality how many CCs get started. I am not sure how many are church plants from a sending pastor or church body but I would venture to say many individuals just go out on their own and start a church. If what you are saying is true, was there a man that hand picked Chuck that got this entire CC movement going? As far as I am aware, Chuck only reported to God and no man appointed him. To me this kind of sounds like apostle Paul type of experience and language however the apostle Paul had direct revelation from Jesus himself.”
He was an ordained pastor from 4-square Pentecostal that left the denomination and started an independent church.
Are you implying people aren’t directed by the Spirit today?
“Are you implying people aren’t directed by the Spirit today?”
Yes they are but it is always confirmed by a calling congregation.
Wasn’t CCCM at the time a church of 25 John Birch Society members who called Chuck in the mid 60s?
“Yes they are but it is always confirmed by a calling congregation.”
I agree. I was ordained by our congregation. That’s why, in my tongue in cheek response, I said, ‘see if anyone follows you’.
a pastor, Mormons have very large followings, so does Benny Hinn, so does Joel Osteen, so does Islam…and I’m pretty sure you’d challenge the “of God” in all those I referenced.
I agree. I was ordained by our congregation. That’s why, in my tongue in cheek response, I said, ‘see if anyone follows you’.
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Really? Was it the same grumbling congregation that Chuck Smith mentions in his “distinctives” that ordained you? That seems a bit odd if they don’t even get a vote. Oh, I forgot they can always vote with their feet. haha 🙂
RiBo,
I don’t recall equating congregation size to God’s blessings or Godliness.
Andrew:
Why would Chuck Smith’s congregation ordain me?
Why would Chuck Smith’s congregation ordain me?
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Actually, I believe only God ordains and the congregation can agree. But how do you even know if they agree if the members aren’t given a vote. And without any kind of membership how do you even know who is your congregation? How do you know if they are believers or non believers or visitors etc…without interviewing each one individually? Having a full congregation following you means absolutely nothing.
Andrew. I say this in brotherly affection. If you want to vote, go to a different church. I’m not sure any CC sneaks up on people by acting like a congregationally led church, then plays the ol’ ‘switcharoo’ on them.
The, Moses Model, as taught by pastor CS should be abandoned. Its very idea is that a specially called man, hears from God, passes it down to elders in one group and assistant pastors in another and then get passed down to the congregation.
That is why you hear things like, please be in prayer for, Pastor so and so, as he seeks God’s will for______.
The veil has been torn and now all in Christ have access to the Father and the priestly duty of all is to help and encourage that personal relationship, not stand between it.
If someone put themselves in the position to constantly stand between God and the congregant, it stunts growth, and causes an unbiblical clergy/laity relationship resulting in Christians abdicating the work of ministry to the clergy.
Plural eldership rule with congregant involvement is more difficult, probably impossible, it requires the Holy Spirit.
a pastor, rightly points out that any form of government can fail because men are involved,but if a pastor lead church is insisted on, it should include what Steve Wright wrote in his ’10 Keys’ paper but also the process when things go bad, recusing those who judgments could be clouded by, salaries, nepotism, positions, friendships, etc.
Maybe appoint the very least to judge.
The “Moses Model” in it’s current incarnation is the most prevalent one in American evangelicalism.
Unless you’re in favor of a state church, it’s here to stay.
a pastor
I do go to a different church. I was simply asking how your congregation “ordained” you. I have been to a couple of ordination services in CC and in each case there was no announcement ahead of time. They just did it and took the congregation by surprise and it was not like you could say no in the middle of the service without being throw out. Its this kind of practice that CC needs to watch out for especially when they say the congregation ordained me later on.
a pastor, you seemed to indicate that a “following” was validation of your “calling” to which I disagree.
RiBo’s post at 347 is on the money.
Having a following, doesn’t make someone called. The “pope” has a following of one billion people. Is he called? Of course not.
Bob Coy had a following too…
Andy, I was basically restating the adage that you can’t be a leader if no one is following. You can’t shepherd if there are no sheep. Would you disagree with that?
Even if a following were one indication of calling, I’m not sure how you could jump to the conclusion that that statement is all-inclusive. It doesn’t say that it’s the totality of proof of calling.
You’ll pardon me, but I sometimes feel as though some of you are looking for reasons to disagree. I’ll exhibit love by being patient and bearing all things. I’ll ask you to exhibit love by believing and being hopeful of the best from me. Deal? 🙂
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends.
a pastor wrote: “You can’t shepherd if there are no sheep. Would you disagree with that?”
I don’t disagree with that, but likewise, having sheep doesn’t prove the calling, either.
Q:
“The veil has been torn and now all in Christ have access to the Father and the priestly duty of all is to help and encourage that personal relationship, not stand between it.
If someone put themselves in the position to constantly stand between God and the congregant, it stunts growth, and causes an unbiblical clergy/laity relationship resulting in Christians abdicating the work of ministry to the clergy.”
Q, I agree with every word of that. However, your application seems skewed. The veil has been torn and every person has access to a personal relationship with God. There is one mediator between God and man, Jesus The problem though, is that you then seem to make the sweeping, non-Biblical jump to indicate that this means every Christian has the right and responsibility to run the church. That is not the case. The two are not the same.
To prove this out, one need only refer to the qualifications of church leadership. The qualifications aren’t just “be saved because the veil is torn”. There are specific qualifications because the offices of leadership are different than the requirements for salvation.
Andy,
“I don’t disagree with that, but likewise, having sheep doesn’t prove the calling, either.”
I never said it did. And again… It may be one indication, but even then, that still doesn’t say that it is the sole criteria.
I told my daughter one criteria for a husband is that it be a man. Does that mean it’s the only criteria, and any man will be a good husband? Of course not.
If I had said that my daughter should marry a man, would you have driven the point home repeatedly, stating that any old man wouldn’t make a good husband– even after I agreed with you? Then why is this my what? sixth? response to this point?
Blessings.
a pastor, I will therefore leave this discussion to be returned into the hands of you and Andrew 🙂
Andy:
🙂 We’re still brothers. (I’m sticking my tongue out at you.)
“I will therefore leave this discussion to be returned into the hands of you and Andrew”
On second thought, please don’t… J/K
a pastor, I deserve it most of the time 🙂
Jim Jones had a following. Every crack-pot has a following. Michael has a following 🙂
People will follow anyone, and a following is not a validation of a calling.
Validation of a calling is pretty elusive and not very objective…there may be tangible validations…but a following cannot be one of them, necessarily.
@Michael
Is there any truth to news that Bob Barnes is the one who confronted Bob regarding allegations of adultery? Difficult to imagine how BC managed to juggle multiple affairs without alerting his staff. He’s one of the most recognized public figures in Broward County.
One wonders if more resignations are coming down in the coming weeks.
Wow, long thread!
Good point Steve @41
In Sundays sermon, Doug Sauder said there were “Nathans” who confronted Bob and brought it to the church… so coming forward was not Bob’s idea of repentance. If it was Barnes, that’s good, but would be nice to know if this is true. BTW, Sauder did a good job of manipulation by blaming Satan and telling everyone to look inside themselves and repent of their own sin. Never ends.