One Less Enemy

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144 Responses

  1. Paige says:

    What a wonderful gift and testimony. This sort of thing truly glorifies God, IMO…. I’m happy for both you and Jackie…. Grace and peace be multiplied to you both.

  2. Michael says:

    Thank you, Paige…I believe it glorifies God as well.

  3. Thanks Michael and Jackie,

    That is a good example.

    Civility is the least we can offer one another. I am sure we will all go on boldly pressing our points. They matter. This also matters.

    Whatever facilitated this … it is good.

    Now what?

  4. Michael says:

    BD,

    We’ll see…the most important thing has already happened.

  5. This is my favorite entry ever on this blog. THIS is the gospel.

    Thank you, Michael and Jackie, for your witness to God’s greatness!

  6. Michael says:

    Josh,

    🙂

  7. Michael. Thanks for sharing this testimony. We certainly need more of this within the Body of Christ.

  8. Michael says:

    Francisco,

    We have to live what we preach…and that means being open to reconciliation.
    It’s a good thing. 🙂

  9. Ms. Alnor says:

    Feeling emotionally drained this morning, I won’t be engaging in this discussion. Thank you Michael for hearing me out. We are both in the family of God but different flavor and different flaws. I like the way my old pastor Tim Brown, CC-Fremont, put it in this message, comparing our traditions to cookies with different recipes. I’m a Tollhouse chocolate chip cookie and you’re an oatmeal chocolate chip cookie. We’re not going to convince each other to change the ingredients. Shalom – Maranatha!

  10. Nonnie says:

    God bless you Jackie and MIchael!!
    Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1 John 4:11

  11. Jim says:

    Blessed are the initiators, and those who will interact with them. Well done.

  12. Michael,

    Glad she finally recognizes and repents. I celebrate this with you.

    As to unfinished business, 2 names, Barry Taylor & Chuck Smith Jr.

    When Jackie Alnor next reaches out to Chuck Smith Jr and has apologized for savaging his/our church and recognizes him also to be a brother in Jesus, just like you, Michael, then I’ll celebrate the that milestone as well. Perhaps she can reach out to him privately via Facebook and set up a face to face meeting, just like Jesus told her to do, that she has ignored for many many years.

    Until then she needs to do something about her self made millstone regarding Capo Beach Calvary Chapel.

    Ditto for Barry.

  13. Ahh, the grace vacuum.

  14. Steve Wright says:

    Michael, Came on today to banter a little theology on one of the threads and then read this. Going to begin and end my day with this read – and a praise to the Lord.

    I hope that one post above is the only one in this thread that urinates all over what God has done.

  15. mike says:

    Michael
    Why in the world would we call ANY brother or sister in Christ an Enemy in the first or last place anyways?
    Glad u all at he’d it up but lose the list while you are at it.
    -mike

  16. mike says:

    Patched it up. (Darned auto complete)

  17. Michael says:

    Mike,

    Either you are naive or just taking a shot.
    I’m considered an enemy by lots of people in the church…a lot.
    Whether I consider them an enemy is beside the point if they do.
    I don’t have a personal list, nor do I know that Jackie ever considered me an enemy…but many folks do.

  18. I do not mind EVER if I have a disagreement with someone…
    I get riled when they take it to a place of condemnation …

    Above their pay grade. Mine too.

  19. mike says:

    Not a shot nor naive. More of an encouragement for all of us.
    Carry on.
    -mike

  20. xenia says:

    This is the best thing ever posted on the PPhx, with out a doubt.

  21. filbertz says:

    I applaud the conversation and the spirit with which it was held. I’ll only miss reading the word “wonk” as frequently. 😉

  22. erunner says:

    I missed this!! This great news Michael. In some exchanges I had with Jackie recently I was thinking about the idea of you two reconciling. Rubber to the road Christianity. 🙂

  23. Tim Brown says:

    Hi, Jackie – I didn’t know they were filming me (or if I knew it, I forgot!). One correction – I am not your old pastor, I am your former pastor.

  24. J.U. says:

    This is wonderful news. God bless you both.

  25. Muff Potter says:

    Michael,
    You lead by example, and what a good example for all of us. Imagine. A better world by all of us doing what we would want done to us. No more crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, and all the other stuff that makes the Devil cackle with delight. Learning to coexist in peace with those who don’t believe as we believe is a first step. One small step and yet a giant step for humankind.

  26. Francisco says:

    The above conversation between Michael and Jackie is a textbook example of what Peter commanded us to do in 1Peter2:17.

    Christ was honored and when Christ is honored….the brethren are honored. This brings blessings to many.

  27. Captain Kevin says:

    Bravo!!! Thank you Jackie and Michael for demonstrating the peace of Christ.

  28. Ok everyone made nice. My problem is that for a very long time I attempted to be in civil but vigorous dialogue with this one. It was not possible. The nuclear bombs flew. It was always a zero sum game. At least weep tears that you think me damned for my idiocy. Don’t seem so happy about my demise.

    Some meditation on the matter might be good.

  29. Alex says:

    My personal experience with Jackie was very positive, I think she is sincere and has a good heart. Glad to see you guys making some peace and arriving at a detente.

  30. Nonnie says:

    “I do not mind EVER if I have a disagreement with someone…
    I get riled when they take it to a place of condemnation …

    Above their pay grade. Mine too.”

    Agree!!!

  31. E says:

    @ #9 youtube. Its astonishing that CC’s continue in there tradition of CC revisionism. Sanitizing by never mentioning Lonnie Frisbee as the Evangelist that was bringing in the young people by the bucket loads. They basically paint a picture as if some old bald Christian minister, one day decided began to teach the bible verse by verse. And then waamo, revival! And next thing you know, word spread and all the young people in OC began to flock because of the innovation of verse by verse. Yet you hear Mike McIntosh or Debby Kerner Rettino you get closer to the reality. There was this young hippy preacher who dressed like Jesus. And in his meetings, radical things happened, including physically healed, slain in the Spirit, with the masses getting baptized in the Spirit speaking in tongues etc.

  32. Tim Brown says:

    Hi, E – you make some good points. What you label revisionism is actually shorthand and the boundaries of personal experience. The talk I gave on CC that Jackie posted here was after the morning service and was intended to address CC distinctives, not CC history. I had no personal experience w Lonnie F., and in a cursory overview, he wasn’t on my radar. I think some of the recent work done in examining the roots of CC and the wider Jesus Movement have done a good job in drawing attention to the role of Lonnie Frisbee.

  33. Ms. Alnor says:

    Wrong E!! – Were you there?? Well I was. I lived in Orange County – born and raised in So. Cal — There were no real hippies to speak of in Orange County when the revival happened — real hippies were in San Francisco. So in 1970 I headed north to stay in an authentic hippy community and was razzed for being an LA woman. I wasn’t accepted in that circle because I insisted on wearing make-up and shaving my armpits. (The media called anyone who had long hair a hippy; OC long-hairs had the fashion but not the lifestyle.) I did not run into any ‘Jesus Freaks’ in the Bay area. Coming back to OC after my six month trip (and I do mean trip) I found that some of my friends became Christian and were going to some tent meeting in Costa Mesa. These were friends who did not know each other – and a cousin of mine also who did not know my friends. They all turned into Jesus Freaks and that’s what I called them and I could no longer relate to any of them because I was tired of hearing “Praise the Lord” after everything I said. (I didn’t get born again until ten years later – no thanks to any of those friends, but simply from reading the Bible.) I recall all of that just to say that in all the chatter going on about the place where the people my age were going to — in the tent – the ONLY name I kept hearing over and over again was ‘Chuck Smith.’ I NEVER heard the name Lonnie Frisbee until after he was dead. It was – as it happened – ‘Chuck Smith’ that all the people who spoke about Calvary Chapel were naming. So I can say that it IS David Di Sabatino who is the revisionist. He had an agenda. I know because he contacted me when he was promoting his documentary and I discovered he was just fixated on Lonnie, and other colorful leaders like Phil Aguilar, but wasn’t there and had no real first hand understanding. Well I was there – and so was Pastor Tim. So what we say, we do as eye witnesses. Tim just gave a quick summary in the video I posted. He might even have run into the messed up guy. I’ve spoken to others such as Pastor John Higgins that not only knew Lonnie, but even were supposed to look after him and keep him out of trouble. He too testifies that Lonnie was certainly NOT the driving force of those days — not in the slightest.

  34. Tim Brown says:

    Hi, Jackie – I never knew that a real hippie didn’t shave their armpits!

    Whatever you call them, there were a massive amount of dope-smoking, free love, rock ‘n roll, long-haired young people in the OC in the late 60s. I don’t think it takes anything away from God or Chuck or CC history to evaluate the contribution of different individuals. I heard the name “Jesus” much more than I heard the name of “Chuck.” I would hope that all on this blog would not think that CC is the fruit of Lonnie or Chuck or some slick marketing and branding being done in the late 60s and early 70s. CC, and so many other churches and families of churches experienced a glorious outpouring of the Holy Spirit as He came to make Jesus famous.

    Where am I missing it?

  35. E says:

    I know someone who not only helped build CC but went back before the tent days to the little building on Church Street in Costa Mesa. And his account and others like it “WHO where there, way before you. Give a accurate and more realistic account, that coincides with Chucks own historical narrative when he spoke at Lonnie’s funeral. ” I NEVER heard the name Lonnie Frisbee until after he was dead” I find this astonishing and this points to your lack of due diligence and poor information sources.

  36. That Jackie had not heard of Lonnie Frisbee is of no consequence since reading her post tell you that she was not really there either. Lonnie was never a central figure in CC public meetings as I know it other than the fact that for a while he was a the Wednesday night guy with the young. Lonnie was primarily a street guy. He found them where they were. For the truth about Lonnie just read the early books by Chuck where he plainly told the story of Lonnie as a epoch making event. The revisionism is always present and ebbed and flowed with Lonnie. Everyone knows that his personal life made him unusable as the poster boy after a while.

    Read The Reproducers, a little booklet that has the Lonnie story.
    Talk to Tom Stipe who was really there front and center.
    Greg Laurie found Christ through Lonnie … there is a lovely anecdote out there about Greg falling and speaking in tongues on the spot… it may not be true but Laurie is definitely the fruit of Lonnie. Mike Mackintosh got healed and I believe, though I have not confirmed it that Lonnie was the means of his return to sanity… (I love the thought)
    Talk to Chuck Smith Jr. I think he was there.

    Di Sabatino definitely had an angle but he didn’t ruin the narrative just shaded it in the light of Lonnie’s rejection. Victimization is a storyline that sells. Tom will tell you Lonnie was not a victim of anyone but himself.

    The Vineyard connection is well attested and undeniable

    The most egregious editing out of Lonnie that I know was Donald Miller with his Reinventing American Protestantism … I think it may have been that he was a victim of the revisionism of that era but he misses how central Lonnie’s catalytic ministry was to both Smith and Wimber. I don’t think those two make history without Lonnie though they would certainly have had fine ministries.

    There is no question Lonnie Frisbee was the pied piper and they danced.. a whole generation danced. For context Lonnie was 69-71 in Costa Mesa … he was the firestarter … He caught them Chuck cleaned them… many other stars shone bright too Like Laurie, Mackintosh and Stipe who all are still overseeing great ministries.

    And don’t forget the music… but here is the reality… momentum does what will cannot do. Chuck could not have dreamed it and done it. The momentum was the combination of his teaching charism and Lonnie’s evangelistic and healing anointing. Many other players caught the wave … when it got rolling nothing could stop it. Nothing except time and institutionalization.

    As for hippies in SoCal. Chuck Smith’s story completely depends upon the fact that they were there but when it collapsed in SF it was over for the counterculture. In fact 1969 was the high-water mark and it cascaded into decline. Hippies had to make a living too. Meanwhile the JPM was just gearing up and firing on all cylinders.

    Jackie isn’t telling it wrong she is just universalizing her experience which was not the whole story. That’s my two cents. Oh and we are ALL revisionist fro the same reason.

    We should all admit it

  37. Ms. Alnor says:

    E – I am speaking as an outsider at the time – one who gave all the ‘Jesus freaks” a hard time. I was close to the action but not a part of it. And can say that all I heard was Chuck this and Chuck that. Never Lonnie. Looking back to that time I can indeed see that it certainly was a true revival – and as Tim said – the Source was Jesus. But as in any revival, from the Welsh revival to Azusa Street, the devil right away sows tares and brings in lying signs and wonders to try and disrupt things — and that is where Lonnie comes in. Just as Pharoah’s magicians tried to duplicate Moses’ actions, the devil still does that today. That is the nature of his deception. And the influence of John Wimber and Lonnie Frisbee – and that is why both were tossed by Chuck.

  38. Ms. Alnor says:

    Alan – Not disagreeing with you — we can only each testify to what we saw and experienced.

  39. E says:

    @ D: You put forth a good summary.

    @A- Lonnie was tossed from CC by Chuck because of lying signs and wonders? Please cite your information source.

  40. Jackie is wrong again,

    Chuck did not toss John out… nor Lonnie… Every time Lonnie came home papa Chuck received him. Chuck may have pushed but he never told Lonnie or John Wimber to leave. Those two left over their own rejection issues. Lonnie left the first time to get his marriage work on… it failed. He came home… Chuck received him. Chuck made him reform his look and his ways and for a while he did. But Lonnie was a revivalist and a true Pentecostal.

    Chuck was leaving Pentecostalism as Lonnie was embracing it. So their purposes crossed but early on their gifts complimented amazingly. Success breeds odd friends. In 1982 Chuck and some other leaders of Calvary suggested that John Wimber change his name. The brand was being settled and Wimber’s experiential charismatic style was not the brand. Lonnie had by that time gone over the Wimber and the same catalytic explosion that came to Chuck came to John Wimber. Neither allowed Lonnie to become the face of the house.

    When Chuck told John to change his name John took it as a rejection. Chuck Smith was surprised that John left … Chuck had a lot of toleration in those days even though he was clear on the differences.

    Now this is where I am not factually settled. The focus on apologetics that rose in Calvary Chapel was a late 80s emphasis I believe and probably grew out of the increasing need for Calvary Chapel to distinguish the brand and claim the market share. I do not mean that crassly.

    Wimber’s departure made the lines draw sharply … they would not have drawn that sharply that quickly had Wimber stayed in the BIG TENT like Horizon and Harvest. That last part is my opinion. The first 3 paragraphs are, I believe factual.

  41. I should not have begun my post with “Jackie is wrong again” … That was my recent research kicking in

  42. Tim Brown says:

    @36 Thanks for this, D. Alan. Appreciate your style and substance.

  43. Ms. Alnor says:

    Chuck – as I have heard it from those who were there – wanted to keep the focus on the Word of God (signs following) while Wimber wanted to “do the stuff (follow after signs). They diverged on that – so maybe using the word “tossed” was a bad choice for my hyperbole.

  44. I grew up in SoCal and my wife and I moved deep into the OC when we first married in 1969. Lived there until 1978. I had never heard of CC, the tent, Chuck Smith or Lonnie Frisbee in all that time. I lived, went to CSF and worked during that period. No one even mentioned anything.

    I think it must have been a sub culture thing. Moved to Riverside in 1978, went to CC Riverside in 1981, got saved and was there probably 6 months before I ever heard the name Chuck Smith – and Greg Laurie between 1981 -83 never mentioned a guy named Lonnie Frisbee

  45. E says:

    What took place between Chuck and John is certainly no secret. Considering Chuck himself was a campaign manager for the prophetic minister Paul Cain, I find rather interesting. That both Lonnie and Paul both weaved through Smith and Wimbers ministries at different times. I remember hearing that Chuck had said from the pulpit as he was going through his verse by verse talking about the ministry office. And went on to say that I know of a prophet, and that if he would ever come out of hiding, he should you a thing or two”…

  46. That is true

    John was show and tell… because he thought Jesus was too
    Chuck was ‘signs following’ … because that is a scriptural phrase.

    My favorite new historical use of scripture is the Second Great Awakening using the passage about “bodily exercise profits little” in the context of the manifestations of Cane Ridge… The running exercise the falling exercise the barking exercise and the jerking exercise etc.

    Hilarious.

  47. Ms. Alnor says:

    I had thought this thread had died — thank you Alan for commenting using your real name.

  48. E … I love the note about Chuck and Cain… didnt know it

  49. E says:

    Forgot to include this part.Those on the inside loop say Chuck was referring to Paul Cain.

  50. Ms. Alnor says:

    Tim – I do apologize for calling you my ‘old’ pastor. – After all, we are the same age – and I think we still have some spunk left in us. lol

  51. I don’t see a problem. Chuck like many was sucked into the pentecostal abuses of Wimber and Peter Wagner’s signs and wonders missiology – saw the ugly underbelly and backed away.

    Also, I don’t know how many here ever went to one of the CC afterglow services? This may have been in the heyday, but they were spookier than going to a haunted mansion at Halloween.

    I applaud CS exiting such abuses.

  52. E says:

    @ D, Cain had prophesied to Chuck that he saw him as a youth pastor, ministering to untold #’s of young people. And when this was given during early 60’s, being told your going to be a youth pastor, was a put down or in a sense failure in ministry. Now if your a youth pastor and you can draw the young crowd. Your a rock star-

  53. Bob Sweat says:

    This is good reading! Allan, John did get tossed from the Friends Church in Yorba Linda. I had thought all this time that Chuck tossed him too. Thanks for the clarification. By the way, John was a blessing to me during my early years of ministry. If left California for Oregon in 1974, John was tossed from the Friends Church a few years later.

  54. Bob – with ‘Friends’ like that, who needs enemies? 🙂

  55. Bob Sweat says:

    MLD

    🙂

  56. E says:

    @ Ms Alnor:#37 Lonnie was tossed from CC by Chuck because of lying signs and wonders.

    Please cite your information source.

  57. Ms. Alnor says:

    E – I clarified that in #43

  58. Ms. Alnor says:

    Bob Sweat – The Quaker connection is an important one when discussing Wimber/Wagner. That false theology of the “inner light” made inroads into the revival of the time, I am convinced. My cousin married a Friends pastor who graduated from Fuller and was friends with W/W. She got off-track, refusing to do communion or baptism, while my friends that stuck with CC did not go off-track or in a wild manifestations direction. There was a true spiritual battle going on at that time.

  59. Ms. Alnor says:

    E – We have not been properly introduced. I do not like to dialogue with people who hide behind a moniker. It’s like talking to shadows.

  60. I am not aware that anyone considered John Wimber to have been affected by historic Friends teaching but perhaps. I do know that John made them uncomfortable with both his aggressive and successful soul winning … which made the church grow larger than the people were accustomed. And John and Carol separately getting into the charismata and then being clear that they were going to receive and accept it.

    John was evangelical in his theology … pretty rigorously so… he was charismatic in his ministry… he was unique. He accepted that a Christian could have a demon because he cast them out of Christians. Before that he did not accept it. That was a stress for Chuck but not a deal breaker at the time. John’s eschatology was much more in line with historic protestantism. Chuck’s eschatology was Pentecostal. John brought the gifts to evangelicals Chuck (and many others) brought end times fever to evangelicals.

    There is another narrative about their parting of ways … made public by Chuck Fromm who is very unsympathetic to Wimber and paints him as angling to take over the movement and when it failed he pictured him as taking out as many churches as possible. Fromm is pretty uncomplimentary of the man he considered his uncle’s rival.

  61. Ms. Alnor says:

    Chuck Smith was a flawed vessel but the LORD used him. And from my perspective Hal Lindsey was equally used by God in that true revival that brought the young people out of their sinful lifestyle and transformed them as children of the Living God. I do not doubt that Wimber bore fruit and brought many into the Kingdom, but from reading his writings I believe he did just as much harm as good. I would say the same of Paul Crouch.

  62. Bob Sweat says:

    Jackie,

    You, and others, need to understand that teachings such as “inner light” were not part of the teaching of the vast majority of Quakers in California. There are several branches of the Quaker Church, with some teaching false theology. Although I no longer attend a Friends Church, I did for over 30 years. Twenty two of those years as a pastor in three different states. During that time, I met only 2 pastors who I would consider theologically liberal. Although some Friends continue to believe baptism and communion are not necessary, many of the churches now include both. Like Kent Hughes, who was a pastor in the Friends Church before he left for Wheaton, I did not agree with many of the doctrines, but it was the church where I accepted Christ. I still know many people that are Friends and believe them to be wonderful Christian people.

    Also, Wimber was influenced by some of the early Quaker writers and their beliefs concerning the Holy Spirit. Peter Wagner, who was also a member of the Friends Church at one time, also had an influence of John.

  63. C Peter Wagner was Congregational for many many years. Never heard he was in the Friends church. Thanks Bob for clarity about them.

    Just for fun I will toss this out.

    What Frisbee did at Calvary Chuck Smith was uncomfortable with and suppressed it
    What Frisbee did at Calvary he also did at Vineyard and Wimber built his church on it
    What Wimber built his church on happened writ large at Toronto and made John queasy
    What John Arnott built his church on John suppressed but it was the same thing John used

    In the mix was time, health issues, critics, market share concerns, extraneous manifestations, and pressure… tons of pressure.

    I draw an unbroken line from Frisbee and Chuck to Arnott and Randy Clark with a wild ride in between… it goes on now via Bethel Church and Iris Ministry

    A small outbreak in San Diego is stressing out the pastors there too. Some of them are calling it Simony… that kind of bombastic and careless rhetoric is the biggest mess.

    As for lying signs and wonders…. I think Satan’s best work is making us believe lies about one another and wonder with suspicion what we are up to.

  64. Francisco Nunez says:

    Hi Bob
    I wasn’t aware that Kent Hughes came from a Quaker background . I enjoyed reading his book “Disciplines of a Godly Man” Great book for small group fellowships.

  65. Steve Wright says:

    I think most every church has a handful of people that usually are responsible for most of the invites/evangelism – probably greater than even the 80/20 rule.

    I have no clue about the hippy era – wasn’t even born until 1967. And not born again until 1993.

    But as I have testified, I too am a first generation, Calvary Chapel guy – God using Chuck in my life no differently than He used him in the lives of those beach kids. The first pastor I ever knew, the first church God led me to after saving me through His word’s testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    I know that in the 8 years I was there in Costa Mesa, I met a whole lot of people just like me. God had brought them to Costa Mesa to sit, learn, and grow under Chuck.- then to be sent.

    Considering Frisbee already was dead before a guy like me even walked in the door the first time, I think it wise to temper the notion that somehow there is no God using Chuck and Costa Mesa if Lonnie had not been around at the beginning.

  66. Joe says:

    I read 43 where is the clarification? Up until an hour ago never heard of Alnor. Did the google thing. Alnor it seems, is striving to convince us she is an authority on the topic regarding cc, smith, lonnie. The more i read her posts the more im convinced, she has no idea what she is talking about. Maybe thats why i never heard of her. Who is D. Sabitino ? A pizza parlor ?

  67. Steve,

    I am pretty careful about my remarks about Chuck. He was remarkable but I am persuaded that he would not have built a movement with out the momentum of that incredible influx during the late 60s to early 70s … Chuck did the best with what he received as any of us could have done but he caught a wave.

    Lonnie’s evangelism
    The birth of Christian rock
    His flight from churchy to natural
    The wave of end times trauma
    Dude was in the right place and ran well with it.

    Then he morphed it into white bread nondenominational evangelicalism

  68. Oh Joe,

    Just when we are having a love in
    Jackie believes that much of the charismatic world is not genuine Christianity and is dangerous… Lonnie Frisbee was as wild a charismatic as ever lived… Chuck Smith benefited from Lonnie and fazed him out as Chuck routinized the house… Di Sabatino is a bit of a historian that is reprising some old Christian legends to tell their story… Jackie is a Christian discernment ministry apologist … I think that is the way to say it.

    And we are having a good discussion without eating each other alive

  69. Bob Sweat says:

    Alan,

    Peter was a member of my home church (Bell Friends) for years while he a Doris were missionaries in Bolivia.

  70. Ms. Alnor says:

    Alan – Just another example of people who hide behind their monikers without identifying themselves can get away with being rude and obnoxious since no one knows who they are – and that’s the way they want it – otherwise they might be accountable for their words and behavior.

  71. Would you guys agree that for the most part, the CC/ Jesus People / Lonnie / Wimber stuff mostly stayed on the West Coast?

    It seems to be getting more widespread now due to the internet, 40 years after the fact. May be the fact that I’m only 40, so really only remember from the 80’s on, but other than Vineyard music in the 90’s, we just haven’t heard about all this stuff on the East Coast.

  72. I should add that I am fascinated by these stories, just stunned that I never heard of them until the last few years.

  73. Michael says:

    “I draw an unbroken line from Frisbee and Chuck to Arnott and Randy Clark with a wild ride in between… it goes on now via Bethel Church and Iris Ministry”

    That is one hell of a stretch…I guess I’ll have to read your book.

  74. Steve Wright says:

    Alan, I don’t disagree with your #66. My response was not geared too directly at any comment in this thread but thinking back on prior discussions where basically the idea is that if Lonnie was not alive, there would be no CC.

    To me, the greatest mistake of Chuck’s memorial service was the total focus on the first generation “Harvest book” guys without mentioning that Chuck continued to be that first pastor for a generation or two afterwards.

    But then again, that sort of emphasis is nothing new in CC circles. Witness just about every conference the last 20 years… 🙂

  75. Josh, as I said in my #44, I don’t know that it was that big of a deal that anyone beyond the active subculture noticed. I lived in the heart of OC, going to college during the ‘hippie’ times (’67 – ’71) – worked for a large OC employer (’71 – ’93)

    Heard not a word. Now for the several thousand who were in the know, it was probably all the buzz in their group … outside, I don’t think so.

    So I lived within 15 miles of CC and heard the same amount as you in the Carolinas. 🙂

  76. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Without Lonnie and the musicians I think Calvary Chapel would have been a small church in Orange County forever…

  77. Michael says:

    MLD,

    Time magazine and every other national news outlet noticed…
    My first taste of it was the “I Found It” campaign…then Courson moved here and all hell broke loose in Southern Oregon.

  78. Thanks MLD. That makes sense. I’m sure it was a big deal to those involved, and has had a tremendous impact this many years later.

    I’m betting most people from Cali never heard of the Turkey Creek Revival either 🙂

  79. Michael – I am speaking specifically about CC – the Tent – Lonnie etc.

    The magazines were doing Jesus movement stuff in general (and Chuck may have been a piece – but I remember the articles including very large events in the Chicago area.) – the I Found It was Campus Crusade for Christ

    “then Courson moved here and all hell broke loose in Southern Oregon.” So Oregon has always been a nutty place. They were also the home for Bhagwan Rajneesh Same difference. 🙂

  80. London says:

    I was a wee child back then, but through the music, I think there was a bigger impact than just on the west coast.
    We had concerts here all the time.

  81. Michael says:

    MLD,

    The Courson story is fascinating…he set up shop as far out in the middle of nowhere as you can get and still be somewhere…and that thing exploded.

    There was a time when it was estimated that 25% of the Rogue Valley attended his church or one of the churches that came out of it.

  82. Who is Courson? Just a first name will be fine, I will google the rest.

    London – Where were you then, and do you remember any of the musicians that played?

    Next question – Is there a difference in what happened there, and the huge 20-30,000 member churches that are popping up here with Furtick and Perry Noble? In 2050, will people be looking back at all that has gone on in those two churches and talk about the wonderful move of God in the Carolina’s in the early 2000’s? Serious question.

  83. Michael says:

    Jon Courson, Applegate Christian Fellowship.

    I think there is a difference…but it would take me a while to define what it is.

  84. London says:

    Josh, I was in Albuquerque.
    I was 14 when I got involved in radio broadcasting classes and did on air shifts for the education station and then the Christian station.
    Can’t remember who all I saw in concert except Steve Taylor and Steve Camp.
    Sweet Comfort band played at my high school once too.
    I know I went to conferences and concerts pretty often, but heck if I can remember names.
    Wrote a HS senior paper for my music theory class on the 70s Christian music scene too.
    So, it was enough of an impact in my teens that I knew all that stuff

  85. From a very up-close point of view, I would say that Elevation/ Newspring and such are not results of revival, but of very careful marketing, hard work, and following the patterns laid out by guys like Rick Warren.

    I wasn’t at CC in the early days, so I don’t know if some things have been spiritualized over the years. I mean, if you listen to Elevation’s official version of their history, you will be convinced that it was nothing but an act of God.

  86. Steve Wright says:

    I don’t disagree with stuff like the music, the hippy evangelism, but the thing being a little lost is that of the man who helped facillitate it all in the Lord. Chuck didn’t make those kids get shoes and cut their hair, he didn’t make them give up their music for organ-led hymns…and he took a chance on these young guys in support (incl. financial) to go out and plant new churches.

    If he had not, then God would have worked through another man, and another church, and yes, it would have been some small OC church forever.

    And as I said, those principles were still at work in large part when a guy like me showed up in 1993, who now is in his 20th year of teaching the word in some formal setting, with all of those early years being under the authority of CCCM (i.e not a lone ranger).

    Yes, there was a wave…no doubt…along with the 60s unrest, Vietnam and other things needful for there to be a CC too. And on and on. God works in mosaic.

  87. Thanks London! That gives me some perspective. Sounds like a fun time. Here in NC, no decent Christian music came around until about the mid-90’s. Friends would try to take me to Christian concerts when I was a teenager, and it was awful. We were definitely way behind on the Christian Rock phenomena.

  88. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I have to believe it was a move of God as I have no other rational explanation.

    Courson is way out in the woods…looks like something between a hippie and a deranged logger at the time.
    He starts in a trailer house as I recall, the moves into an old storefront in town.
    “Town” consisted of three businesses and a post office as I recall.
    Next thing I hear is that they have to run speakers outside this store so the parking lot could hear.
    It was bizarre to many of us.
    Then they built a large and very beautiful campus which is there today.
    Guys working with him would get angry with him and leave…and their churches exploded too.
    It was a very odd time…but those churches are still here 40 odd years later.

  89. Ms. Alnor says:

    Looking around the Christian landscape today – I do not see anything resembling the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, locally or globally, that comes close to the outpouring we saw during the Jesus Movement. In fact, to me it appears that the Restrainer is letting up His hand of restraint and every church/movement builder is striving in the flesh. The Great Apostasy of the Post-Christian era is firmly in place.

  90. London says:

    Josh,
    It was fun.
    The first Christian sing I heard on the radio was Barry Mcguire’s “cosmic cowboy”. I still remember exactly where I was in my room when I heard it while turning stations.
    It made a huge impact on me right then to think there was a station playing songs about God and wasn’t AM awful “church” music.

  91. Jackie, (I know you aren’t big on screen names, so my last name is Hamrick)
    How would you differentiate between what happened in the early days of CC, with Perry Noble starting a church in his living room with 3 or 4 friends that in 10 years grows to 30,000 with 1,000’s upon thousands professing faith in Christ during that period? I believe you that it was different, just want to know what makes it so.

  92. Jackie,
    “I do not see anything resembling the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, locally or globally, that comes close to the outpouring we saw during the Jesus Movement”

    I know that we come from different perspectives, but isn’t the Holy Spirit constantly present? Doesn’t the Holy Spirit manifest himself each time the church meets? Isn’t the Holy Spirit at work in each conversion?.
    I think you are confusing what we see here vs what we don’t see elsewhere. There is one Lutheran denomination in Kenya that now has 7 million members. While you weren’t paying attention, the Holy Spirit was at work. (about the same number as the LCMS & ELCA combined here in the US.)

    I often wonder, if you see it – is that really a working of the spirit?

  93. Ms. Alnor says:

    Josh – Without getting into the details of every pastor/preacher and his/her congregation- I can say that the hoards of people flocking to mega-churches today – and I’ve seen it in person at Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Church — is the Schuller/Hybels/Warren seeker sensitive model of attracting and entertaining the masses with pep talks and motivational speeches. You won’t hear any convicting Holy Ghost anointed, Gospel-inspired admonitions, exhortations, self-crucifying, Jesus-lifting messages from any of them. But they still attract a self-seeking, itching-ears, crowd of worldly, carnal professing concert-goers. And I say that in love.

  94. Ms. Alnor says:

    MLD (maybe you could give me your real name too) – If you have seen what I described above somewhere, please provide a link to where I could get further information and then I can say that I do know of such a work of the Holy Spirit – would love to check it out.

  95. Joe says:

    Discernment ministry … ohhh. So Jackie is a female version of Roger Oakland?

    Lets test Alnor’s discernment.

    Alnor, how many fingers am i holding up and which finger?

  96. Michael,

    I probably should modify my claim of “unbroken line”
    The line would be ——— not_______ but my point is
    The work of the Spirit in Frisbee was in Wimber was in Clark was in Arnott

    Those of us who navigate in these circles are very aware of the mix of human enthusiasm, demonic confusion and Spirit reality….

    we just think

    That there is just as much of all three in churches without demonstrable emotions.

    People tend to believe that their own experiences are the valid ones and that theirs invalidate others.

  97. Clearly Jackie and I agree.

    And Joe we are not playing games we are really talking to one another.

  98. London says:

    Jackie, although I appreciate your tone and openess in this thread, people here have every right to use whatever name they wish to use without you, or anyone else trying to force the issue to use their “real” name.

  99. Ms. Alnor – you used to have my real name on FB until you blocked me a couple of years ago for being an unsaved amillennium guy.

    You may have missed my point. Was what you saw actually an “outpouring of the HS?” Is the HS lazy today? Disinterested? Why would he not be outpouring today? Does he only outpour when everyone will accept it?

    I would think he would outpour when you least expect it or want it. Good rock music is not how I would judge the work of the HS.

  100. This is really kind of an odd conversation. I think there is just as much a presence and a work of the Holy Spirit in my church (even if we are sitting on our hands) as their is is any church that claims a special anointing or outpouring.)

    There is only one Holy Spirit and he works the same in all of us.

    Now who here has the guts to blame Toronto, Brownsville or IHOP on the Holy Spirit?

  101. Joe says:

    Addendum to mld’s post right above. I think the only outpouring Alnor has experienced. Is the outpouring of a critical spirit.

  102. Ms. Alnor says:

    I’ve googled “Joe” and wow,, I discovered he is a serial killer and wanted in five states.

  103. Michael says:

    Alan,

    Somewhat off the topic, but I think you’ve helped me discern my concerns with much of the renewal movement. It seems the final authority is “revelation”…not the Scriptures or ancient tradtions and the Scriptures. Just thinking out loud.

    Joe…that’s enough.

  104. xenia says:

    Some may not regard the so-called Jesus Movement as being all that great. Some might see it as a rebellious movement that introduced and normalized worldliness into American Christianity.

  105. Ms. Alnor says:

    Xenia – I can see how you might think that based upon bad reporting about it. But I know of lots and lots of people who were engaging in drugs, sex, and partying who found Jesus at CC and even though they did not change their clothes style, they flushed the pot, said goodbye to their lovers, and went to Christian concerts and CCCM movie night – instead of dancing, drinking, and picking up dates in the local nightclubs. The fruit of changed lives was tangible.

  106. Ms. Alnor says:

    MLD – I appreciate the fact that Michael has a place where people of differing theological positions can hash things out – hopefully in a respectful way. However, that is not why I have a facebook page. I debate on other people’s facebook page, but discourage that on my own. I see my fb as a place where like-minded friends can fellowship and strengthen one another and pray for one another. I also unfriended Alan and Michael so you’re in good company. And it wasn’t because I am condemning any of you – it is just to keep the discussion there uplifting – one place where we Tollhouse cookies can relax.

  107. Michael,

    Drop the word Final and we can work with it some…
    The people I run around with are academically informed, historically grounded, scripturally submitted and within those bounds very free.

    There is a great deal of energy and focus upon a living revelation. People do live their lives by some of it but not in an untethered fashion around me. We are as I pointed out above.

    I am reading today about the Great Awakening and realizing how much my early Christian sentiments were with the critics of Edwards and especially Whitfield. So the elasticity of it all is something to face.

  108. Michael says:

    Alan,

    I assume you are now familiar with the strange case of Edwards wife?

  109. E says:

    “I draw an unbroken line from Frisbee and Chuck to Arnott and Randy Clark with a wild ride in between… it goes on now via Bethel Church and Iris Ministry”

    I can see the connection.

  110. Michael,

    I love Sarah …

    what source is there for greater information …

  111. Michael says:

    BD,

    I’m sending some journal articles your way…

  112. …so, ChuckJr is acknowledged by JA as a brother in Christ and non-enemy, or did I miss a post somewhere?

  113. Yes I think he is…

    and so is guitar man…

    but we are currently experiencing technical difficulties…

  114. D. Alan Hawkins,
    Would you kindly direct me to a link where JA makes her statement regarding ChuckJr?

  115. Ms. Alnor says:

    G – I am not going to go back and forth on this – just a clarification. I never said Chuck Jr. was not a brother in Christ. I did say he was not fit for leadership — nepotism was his way in, IMHO. When he does favorable things, I report on that too. I posted his tribute to his dad on my fb page, as well as his response to the current litigation. In both instances I patted him on the back. He tried to be a peacemaker with his family and I admire him for that. Would I trust him with rightly dividing the Word of Truth? Nah!

  116. Have you ever reached out to ChuckJr to seek christian reconciliation for disrupting his ministry and church?

    This is a huge issue I have with you as you continue to represent yourself as an exemplary representative of Jesus, yet you continue to fail to obey Jesus’ simplist of directives, to face to face seek dialog and peace with a brother you have an issue with.

    When have you met with ChuckJr and apologized for wronging him, his family and his church?

  117. Post the date, I’ll seek him out to confirm & celebrate your reconciliation

  118. G,
    Has CSJr ever complained about this? Has he ever campaigned for JA to apologize.

    JA a couple of years ago questioned my salvation – and all amillennialist, – I wear it as a badge of honor and would never ask her to retract it.

    If CSJr’s ministry was of God – which I am 100% sure it was, how could JA disrupt it?

  119. MLD,
    Let JA answer

  120. she did at 117. This is 100% a G vs JA thing and 0% JA vs CSJr thing.

    Carry on Dante.

  121. 117 is not the answer to “When have you met with ChuckJr and apologized for wronging him, his family and his church?”

  122. Date for face to face?
    …a simple question

  123. You are assuming that to be the case … your view of the incident(s). However, if CSJr has not responded or made similar demands of JA, then you are entering forbidden territory.

    Now, if JA has offended you, then perhaps you could ask her to apologize and reconcile with you.

    But I have nothing else to say about that.

  124. ( |o )====::: says:

    MLD
    JA has clarity about this. That’s all that matters until she posts the date of the meeting.

  125. If she has made things right with CSJr is she obligated to tell you?

    Read me correctly – I am not doubting that you were tremendously hurt by the incident(s) – I am sure you were. The point is we have no evidence that CSJr was. I seem to know him as a pretty tough guy who is/was capable of letting things roll off his back.

    It was after the JA thing that he wrote his book with Matt Whitlock (2005) which I always took as his thumbing his nose at the JA type of Christianity.

  126. ( |o )====::: says:

    The date, simple, verifiable.
    Do it, JA, reach out to ChuckJr and make Jesus proud of you

  127. Ms. Alnor says:

    I seriously doubt that Chuck Jr. gives me a second thought. Any time he cares to discuss our differences I’m always open to that. But I think this is your obsession G, not his.

  128. ( |o )====::: says:

    You two are on FB, so do the right thing, reach out privately and apologise. The only thing that will diminish is your pride

  129. Ms. Alnor says:

    Nothing to apologize for – if he has any grudge against me, I’d be happy to talk to him. He knows how to find me. Neither of us lose any sleep over it. End of story.

  130. Ms. Alnor says:

    Grendal – Let’s be honest. This is not about Chuck Jr and my opposition to what he allowed into Capo. This is about you — you are the one holding a grudge. You are the one that is bitter. This is between you and me. You have allowed a bitter root to take hold and I think you hurt yourself thereby. So do yourself a favor and forgive me. I’m sorry if I inadvertently injured you in some way. Can’t you forgive me? Do you really want me to open old wounds in Chuck who has enough on his plate. He went through a difficult time back then – lost his way. Don’t camp out there, Again, I did nothing without filling his dad in fully and his dad did nothing to stop me. I even told him, if you say don’t do it, I won’t, and he didn’t. And Smith family members thanked me for doing what they say they couldn’t do. It’s history – we can’t change it and accept that Romans 8:28 worked out for your former pastor. You can love him without hating me.

  131. ( |o )====::: says:

    Nice dodge. You continue to represent yourself as a champion of truth without reaching out to the man you directly wronged, and to this day you continue to ignore Jesus’ admonition to go to him, seeking a face to face meeting.

    Until that takes place your integrity will remain in question. That’s simply how this stuff works, no matter what you say, it’s only about what you do.

  132. Ms. Alnor says:

    Fine Grendal – I’ll pray for you. This is NOT about Chuck Jr. The information I handed out to his congregation about the guest speaker was accurate and honest with little commentary. I did what I did because we are our brother’s keeper and the elders at that church were not protecting the lambs. When leadership won’t, I will. I am done with Phoenix Preacher — not because of Michael or Alan or anyone else. But because of you. I tried – Good-bye.

  133. Xenia says:

    If you rightly call a church leader out for falling into heresy or apostasy, does this need to be repented of? Does, for example, St. Cyril need to apologize to the heretic Nestorius for exposing his false teachings and eventually getting him defrocked? Does St. Athanasius need to apologize for denouncing Arius?

    I am not saying Chuck Jr. was teaching heresy of the same magnitude as Nestorius but his teaching did deviate from the standard CC teachings and he needed to be confronted. Sounds like his dad wouldn’t do it himself and let Jackie do it instead. I like Chuck Jr. as a person and at one we passed some friendly emails back and forth because he showed a [superficial, as it turned out] interested in Orthodoxy.

    How does your public chastisement of Jackie differ from her public chastisement of Chuck Jr.? When are you going to apologize to her?

  134. Xenia says:

    I don’t know how many people read the Pphx people these days but I would hazard a guess that your attempt to humiliate Jackie here has involved more people than did her picketing of Chuck Jr’s church.

  135. erunner says:

    Xenia, Jackie and Michael have reconciled while still holding strong differences. This article was to recognize and be happy about what has taken place. Grendal has taken away from that which is sad.

  136. ( |o )====::: says:

    Ms Alnor,
    I’m rarely here, so feel free to be who you are. This community embraces you for each persons individual reasons. I’ve only brought up your unfinished business. Leave it undone if you choose.

    I celebrate your friendship with Michael and those here who embrace you.

    The peace of Christ be upon you, within you, and proceed from you.

  137. CSJr is no innocent party. His theology changed radically – read his book with Matt Whitlock that I mentioned before (I will need to go downstairs to the library to get the exact name of the book.) This was at the end of his Capo term.

    His personal life was a mess, that I am sure was caused by the strife his new theology was creating. CSJr divorced his wife and married another woman. I am sure that much of this led to bad decisions on his part regarding the church, leaving JA as the only option to shine the light.

  138. Xenia says:

    MLD, I actually wrote a very positive review about that book on Amazon. At the time, I was chatting a little with him on email and I thought he was working himself up into embracing either RC or EO and I saw some of the stuff he wrote as positive developments. He criticized some of the same things about evangelicalism that I was criticizing. I read that book such a long time ago that I don’t remember its contents very well but at the time, I liked it very much. As a relatively new convert to EO, I liked everything anti-CC. Heh, that’s why I first came to Pphx!

  139. ( |o )====::: says:

    “We have two religious menu options when it comes to orthodoxy: Totality or Heresy….”

    http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/12/10/the-continued-crucifying-of-rob-bell-and-what-it-says-about-the-state-of-modern-christianity/

  140. Another one who is not honest enough to just say “Christianity is not for me, therefore I have forged out my own new religion.” No, they just keep making it up as they go along.

  141. London says:

    I used to really like Rob Bell a lot. Now he just annoys me.
    Not sure what is exactly, but something

  142. Tony says:

    So is Jackie still here?

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