TGIF
What is the most widely read magazine in the world?
That’s the print voice of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for those who haven’t been visited by any members of the cult lately.
While the “apologists” and “online discernment ministries” rip apart the Body of Christ with accusations and innuendo the real dangers to the church are flourishing.
When you read the passages about false teachers you will find that they almost invariably are marked by the fact that they offer a false Christ or deny His deity as the Witnesses and Mormons do.
If you read the sites of Lighthouse Trails or Apprising Ministries you will look long and hard to find anything about these movements.
Real apologetics don’t lend themselves to shrieking headlines and brazen accusations…it’s hard work and requires skill and knowledge of the Scriptures and a heart broken for those caught in real demonic deception.
Real apologetics isn’t the promotion of one sect of Christianity at the expense of other brethren…it’s offering the real Jesus to the world and pleading with people to be reconciled to God.
We have the ministry of reconciliation between the world and God and then between brethren who have found Him.
The other stuff is from the pit.
Now at the end of long, hard week…an encouragement to prayer;
“But if God knows what things we have need of, before we ask him, where lies the advantage of prayer? If he is ready, of his own free will, to assist us, what purpose does it serve to employ our prayers, which interrupt the spontaneous course of his providence? The very design of prayer furnishes an easy answer. Believers do not pray, with the view of informing God about things unknown to him, or of exciting him to do his duty, or of urging him as though he were reluctant. On the contrary, they pray, in order that they may arouse themselves to seek him, that they may exercise their faith in meditating on his promises, that they may relieve themselves from their anxieties by pouring them into his bosom; in a word, that they may declare that from Him alone they hope and expect, both for themselves and for others, all good things. God himself, on the other hand, has purposed freely, and without being asked, to bestow blessings upon us; but he promises that he will grant them to our prayers. We must, therefore, maintain both of these truths, that He freely anticipates our wishes, and yet that we obtain by prayer what we ask.”
John Calvin
the Lord must have thot i needed blessing this AM – John Calvin, wherever you are 😉 thank you (you, too, Michael)… i hate to show up first here, but just gotta say … again
Interesting that most “church growth” is from ‘sheep swapping’ rather than evangelism and rescue. It has therefore become competitive, as it reflects a zero-sum scenario; no ‘new’ growth means we only have “X” number of sheep to barter for. And if I have nothing to barter for, nothing that makes me appealing to draw sheep, then I scorch the earth of the competition, making him less attractive, seeing how his fields are full of mines, dangers, toils and snares.
Isn’t it only pure consumers who manipulate the “market” this way? Well, consumers and butchers. . .
Also, with Richard Dreyfuss reading the part of Moses in the Word of Promise audio Bible advert’d on the left, what’s the chances of Moses standing at the Nile, as it turns to blood, saying “This was no boating accident, this was no boating accident!!”
I know it’s not in Exodus, but it’s a fun bit of trivia for the kids.
Or maybe at the Burning Bush: “This MEANS something!”
Just trying to be a little funny, is all.
Keep trying, says the family. 🙂
I’ve always wondered why some don’t focus more on the cults. They are making huge gains as they adapt their message and never stop spreading their message.
Scripture does indicate tares growing alongside the wheat and false teaching infiltrating the church so some have chosen to focus on this danger. Matthew 13:24-30
Paul spoke of this in Acts 20:28-31 Paul taught them yet did so with tears as he cared so deeply for the church. Tears may not be necessary in defending the faith but the attitude that produces them is. Otherwise any of us may fall prey to reducing vital spiritual matters to detached head knowledge which is powerless.
In the modern church this can become a very subjective thing and the result is nobody is safe as misguided zeal rules the day.There are other dynamics at play here such as the www but the result shows the world a dysfunctional and fractured church who shoots at anyone and everyone.
Rob, It’s interesting that many of those churches will come down hard on the Pentecostals. The idea is these folks rely on keeping their audience in a frenzy of sorts based on all types of methods. Prayer cloths and anointing water are soon sold with a straight face.
Yet the detractors of those methods are guilty of the same as they go to great lengths to make their church stand out among all others. It’s sad they don’t see it.
Rob..laughing at the Dreyfus joke. If you ever saw Stakeout (about 10-15 yerars after Jaws) he and his cop partner (Emilio Estevez) play a game of movie-line trivia and they throw that out there. Pretty funny if you are in on the joke.
Looking forward to tomorrow at efest. Should be a good time.
E – I’ve noticed the cults are re-adapting yet again. For two years the JWs and Mormon guys would bypass my house, I’d be out front doing yard work, waving and they’d do the pretend you don’t see him thing. But now, they’re back with “new and improved” talking points.
Think of what could be done with specific studies and directions for sharing with the cults. Most of the work on sharing with JWs, Mormons are out of date now with some of the new spin. And that’s what’s really funny, is that cults are “ever changing” in their “truth”. You could keep really busy with all the new twists and turns.
But vivisecting the brethren is better sport, apparently.
Everstudy, See you there!
Rob, I used to have a lot of Walter Martin tapes. I think a few of them were titled “conversations on the door steps” or something like that. How many people are caught up in Islam, Mormonism, the JW’s and Scientology? Over a billion quite easily when you factor in Muslims.
Yet the focus for some is people in the body they disagree with. I realize they believe this is their calling but when there’s friendly fire involved something is seriously wrong. It’s hard to imagine being a believer and folks have pegged you as not only dangerous but as a non believer as well. Family members must suffer terribly as well.
Amen Michael…we really need the ODMs and the “Emergents” and the “Calvinists” and “CC’s” and the “Lutherans” and the “One legged, One-eyed, Red-headed Baptists”…and whoever else believes that “God Is, Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and that Salvation is through Faith in Him”…to stand together against the true Apostasy…
Apostasy = those who reject the Cornerstone…the Stumbling Block…Jesus our Christ.
We are sometimes so “geo-centric” and “socio-centric” in the U.S….meaning “we” think the Universe revolves around “our” little Vapor and our small slice of the 5 BILLION humans on this planet.
There are many more Muslims, JW’s, etc. on this planet who clearly believe against the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
There is your “great Apostasy”…the millions upon millions upon millions who are opposed to Jesus as Messiah…the Son of the Living God…
I preached from 2John last Wednesday about not welcoming a false teacher in your home or even greeting them. I mentioned JW’s and Mormons by name. Thursday when I got home from work there was a JW watchtower pamphlet stuck in my door.
Coincidence?
I remember those tapes, we listened through them for ‘Student Venture’ Bible studies when I was in HS.
Hey, we could start a new series, instead of “Conversations on the Doorstep” we could call it “Total Warfare Under The Steeple” . . . it would be a big, big hit.
This week we’re likely to see the passing of John Wooden, and his life is worth examining. His pursuit of personal integrity never hinged on the denigration of others. He demonstrates a faith of quiet dignity and grace that is terribly unappreciated.
Here’s a quick video on Coach Wooden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFbZckxrTTQ&feature=related
It underplays direct mention of his faith, but his walk is impeccable. I probably botched the link, so very sorry.
Shawn, Those cowards! They wait till you’re gone to drop by! 🙂 I would say the odds of that happening aren’t too high and in my mind that eliminates the word coincidence.
Rob, I’ve been thinking about Wooden as there’s been a lot of news of his condition. Wanna know about JW? Ask anybody that ever was a part of his life. That speaks volumes.
I had a couple of Morman “elders” talk to me a couple of weeks ago. They usually don’t stay too long when they drop by. I generally tell them I am a born again Christian and they walk away. These two started doing their shtick. I kept going back to Jesus and who he is and they kept talking about living in a spirit world before being born. Years ago a dear friend said to just keep asking them who Jesus is. After they finished arguing in circles they asked if they could mow my lawn.
“I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.And this is the promise that he made to us–eternal life. 1 John 2:21-25 [ESV]
DavidH, MOW YOUR LAWN!!! 😯
These elders belong to the devil and he has blinded them to the truth. For a Mormon or any cult member to consider their belief system is wrong ends their world as they know it. This leaves them no room to consider being wrong.
At times I wonder what my world would become if Christianity was shown to be wrong. I also wonder how differently we might approach sharing with a Mormon if it was our daughter or mother.
Why aren’t we winning more of these people to Christ? Maybe some of us have forgotten we were just like them until God claimed us? Just rambling…
John Wooden was at UCLA when my late husband was getting his bachelors there and Bill Bright’s work was taking off and Henrietta Mears were being “mightily used of God” – in that part of town … i was a college drop out watching from the sidelines – Wooden was probably the most highly regarded man on that campus
it was a different time – folks in general kinda, sorta knew that there was a God and there was a respect for integrity and underlying fear of the Almighty still pervading our society…
😉
speaking of Bill Bright… and thinking of Chuck Smith and how they both were used… do you think it’s possible that we see that sort of thing being done by God and then are wrong in thinking that we have to “keep the move alive?”
Erunner,
I have a friend who is a “recovering” Mormon (He has spent years studying Mormonism and apologetics. One of the things he points out is that even though is a Christian he still is culturally a Mormon.). The young “elders” are not allowed to visit his home. He is on their list as “Bishop Visit Only.”
We have had long discussions about Mormonism. One of the things I learned from him is that in reality Mormonism does not have any real doctrine. Because Mormonism is subject to so called living prophets. Because they have living prophets doctrine can change at their whim. Just look at how they alter their beliefs to suit the times – polygamy, African-American leadership, etc. Mormonism is more of a socio-political religious system.
More ramblings…
Asking for prayer -ongoing in fact – for a situation at work. Michael and Sarah know the details. You can especially pray for smooth sailing through next weekend. And favor for me and from me.
DavidH…I have had a very similar experience with a close friend who is a Christian…and now attends an Evangelical church…but still associates with the Mormon Church on a more social basis…as the person’s family is still very Mormon.
IMO…from what I’ve gathered from both this person’s experience…and other friends who are deeply Mormon…your take is pretty much spot on.
my latest put to the dear young fellas who come to the door to teach me 😉
after making sure that they understand that i won’t give up on Jesus as the Incarnation of the one and only Triune God and Ruler of the Universe and that only God Himself could pay the price of our redemption and after they’d offered to help out with my chores… it occurred to me to tell them that the day might come when they would conclude that their faith is a little goofy (& it will) and if it does, to not give up on the Jesus of the Bible because He is Who He says He is – (their faces told me that it already had) – but I assume, they had to go back and rework their argument to nice old ladies…
BrianD, praying for you – 2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind… 😉
Believe,
One of the hardest thing for my friend is that he has been shunned by most of his family since he became a Christian.
Em,
When I talked to these fine you men, I did just as you have suggested. I told them that Jesus would not give up on them and that the Cross was for them as much as anyone else.
Maybe I should have let them mow my lawn. 😯
Brian D. Yes, I will be praying for you this weekend. God keep you in His loving care.
…praying now BrianD.
BrianD – Pray for you. Grace and Peace.
DavidH, Gives Mormons a lot of wiggle room in explaining how one prophet can contradict another.
When I have spoken with them I will bring up the Trinity and that Jesus is God the Son and not the son of god. They are always very prepared to combat this as I imagine it’s part of their basic training.
I typically end by saying that if they are right and I’m wrong it’s no big deal. Yet if I’m correct and they are wrong they will be separated from God for eternity with no remedy. I then pray for them as they leave.
I will tell you that if your radar isn’t up you can be talking to a cultist and not even know it as they can really come off as believers with the wording they use.
Where have you gone Walter Martin
The church could use you here today
Hey hey hey…. 🙂 Time for lunch!!
Rob Murphy at 9:13am made this observation – “Interesting that most “church growth” is from ’sheep swapping’ rather than evangelism and rescue.”
I saw this first hand last night. My friend invited me to go to Greg Laurie Thursday Orange County bible study and Greg announced that they are probably going to start up an Orange county (Irvine) Sunday morning church. He then said that they needed support and wanted to know how many people would attend the new church.
It seems to me that all of those in attendance are at other local churches. So, with a new power draw in town, it will be like musical chairs. My friend said that he really likes the CC he attends now, but would consider the move.
something does not seem right.
Erunner, I’m really not all that concerned about being twisted into a theological knot. I’ve found with the Mormons I have dealt with they don’t really understand their own “doctrine” that well. And, yes I do know that most Christians don’t understand their doctrine very well either.
The JW’s in our area won’t even come to our door (I’ll bet I get one knocking at my door tomorrow :mrgreen:). A few years ago I ticked a couple off. They went to the curb and symbolically kicked the dust of their “sandals.”
Michael,
It’s almost refreshing to imagine Calvin wrestling with the purpose of prayer, pacing, making a note in a worn out journal with a pen or whatever he used, maybe bending the page to refer back, looking at other pages with the same fold, then one day penning the words you quoted, more as an assurance to himself as he settled deeper into the mystery of God’s words and the writer’s commentaries contrasted to his own experiences of heavenly silence and unmistakable provision and presence.
It’s nice to know we’re not alone not uniquely struggling with these mysteries.
By the way, the best sunset shots of the Brooklyn Bridge looking back to lower Manhattan are from the park at the waterfront at the base of the Watchtower building.
I met Bill Bright at a large social gathering for Crusade where I was one of hundreds, and I do not know whether to this day I have met a more genuinely humble man. He sincerely came across as if HE was blessed to meet me – a stranger (and not some huge donor or anything). Basically, I told him I liked some of his books I had read – and he acted like I was the first person to ever tell him that (though ‘acting’ is not the right word of course).
Couple that spirit, a willingness to share Christ with any and everyone he met, and the surrender to Christ he and his wife had made to provide for their needs (where they never even owned their own car – despite starting and presiding over a hundreds of millions of dollars ministry) and it is no surprise how much this man was used by the Lord.
Praise God he went home before the power of the ODMs really got manifested.
funny JWit note – i have a serious stone cross over my doorbell (gift from one of my daughters) and when the J Wits come to my door, they won’t ring the bell anymore, they knock 🙂
MLD, what are they thinking of ? and what is Laurie thinking of ?
M*B,
…because he can.
not should, ought, nor must…but can.
I imagine he hasn’t polled the other CC pastors in the area he’s targeted. But they’ll be good team players and lose a good chunk of their membership so another can trumpet his success…to God’s glory of course. 😉
skeptifil
All of you biblical scholars, I could really use your help. I am teaching the Olivett Discourse this Sunday and trying to ponder freshly the respective passages that record this (Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21). I am pre-millennial/pre-trib.
The question that the disciples brought to Jesus and His response covered two areas: the destruction of the temple (not one stone would be left upon another) and the end of the world. The problem is that in Jesus’ response back, it is hard for me to know when He is speaking to each of those two areas.
In His response, there are in this order, the false Christs that will appear, wars and rumors of wars, nations and kingdoms battling each other, the natural catastrophies that will be increasing exponentially, and the betrayal of believers by loved ones that is mentioned. Then, the gospel must be preached to the whole world. Then, the Abomination of Desolation (from Daniel 9) is mentioned, followed by remarks about the Great Tribulation (one unlike any that ever has or will occur). The coming of the Son of Man and the gathering up of the elect is next mentioned.
All of this is mentioned, and then, there is the phrase, ” this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” Now, when I was first saved back in the early 70s, it was taught that the Lord was soon to return and so in 40 years (biblical length of a generation) after Israel became a nation (1948) all of these things would take place and Christ would return. 1988 came and went. Then, many tried to stretch out what the length of a generation meant from a biblical perspective. All of those theories time has proven wrong.
So, my question is this. Could the generation that Jesus was speaking of refer to that generation in His day, 40 years after which Jerusalem fell to the Romans (70AD), and He be speaking there parethetically about that first generation and the fall of Jerusalem, in the midst of discussing the far bigger fulfillment that would occur when He returns at the end of this present age? Please feel free to weigh in anyone…
Trust me…not everyone is going to be a team player on this one…there is some major unhappy about the situation.
I’m most definitely not pretrib…I’m not a scholar either, I just play one on my blog…but I think the prophecy has a dual fulfillment for 70 AD and the end of the age.
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/olivet-discourse/
Michael,
I have read all of the prophecy threads on pp, I’m ready for the melee even for the Dreaded one… 😆
ShowMeWhere,
Offer what Jesus did to His followers…
1 The words recorded by the gospel writers as His, without commentary
2 The freedom of your hearers to ponder the facts of recorded history
3 The grace to have a room full of mystery and no way to reconcile it
4 An action plan focused on what Jesus clearly told us to be about, calling all people in out path to consider Him as He is portrayed within those 4 gospels
You can only give solid answers where there is little scripture twisting and your forthright understanding of what is in front of you. Every generation has wrestled with the idea of what a “generation” meant, and every generation has formulaic date setters who meant well but contributed toward disillusioning the church once again. Read history, read about Darby, read about The Great Disappointment. Focusing on end times is not going to equip anyone for the difficulties of daily life. How do we equip the church to persevere, grow, seek justice and show mercy, invent, solve problems, innovate, create art, architecture, use resources more wisely as stewards of God’s gifts to us, not squandering. The people of Louisiana could use a miraculous solution to BP’s tragic spill, so does anyone in the congregation have some ideas? Then, send the ideas as a gift to BP to help them. If the brain power of thousands of churches across the USA were focused on bringing solutions to that problem, as one silly example, can you imagine the help and healing that could be brought to those suffering loss? I think of all the wasted energy spent wringing our hands over temples being rebuilt and ashes of red heifers when we need tangible answers for problems of poverty, racism, sexism, tribalism and cultural ignorance… the only way the world will see Jesus is through us, how we treat others within and outside the church. That’s what “little christs” was about during the book of acts.
Back to the passages, wouldn’t it be far better to be clear on what is clear to you, and be willing to join the rest of believers who simply said, “OK Jesus, we’ll just be about Your work until You come for us as a group or individually in death”?
Hope that helps.
This is my local pastor’s take from a message we studied earlier this year:
Mark 13:1-37
Two Events:
1. The Destruction of the Temple
2. The Return of Christ
Event One: Destruction of the Temple:
Contextual Argument:
Jesus and the disciples are leaving the temple; they comment about the temple; Jesus tells them, “Not one stone will be left on another.” The disciples ask, “When will these things happen? And what will be the sign?”
“When will this happen? AND what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3
Grammatical Argument:
Jesus said to Peter, James, John and Andrew:
1. Watch out that no one deceives YOU (5)
2. When YOU hear of wars (7)
3. YOU must be on your guard (9)
4. YOU will be handed over to the Sanhedrin (9)
5. YOU will stand before governors/kings (9)
6. When YOU see the abomination that causes desolation (14)
7. THIS GENERATION will not pass away until these things happen (30).
Historical Argument:
The abomination that causes desolation (14)
1. An allusion to Daniel 9:27 Refers to the desecration of the temple by Antiochus IV in 167 B.C. Jesus uses this allusion to predict the coming destruction of the temple by the Romans in A.D. 70.
2. Luke’s comment: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” Luke 21:20-21
Pragmatic Argument:
If this refers to Christ’s second coming, what good are His instructions?
1. Pray it’s not winter, and that you aren’t pregnant. Don’t risk retrieving valuables or your cloak. Those who are in Judea flee to the mountains…
Chronological Argument:
If Verses Mark 13:1-23 are referring to the destruction of the temple… vs. 24 gives a new time stamp.
“But in those days, FOLLOWING THAT DISTRESS…men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.” Mark 13:24-26
Warning Signs:
1. Many deceivers.
2. Wars/rumors of war.
3. Earthquakes and famines.
4. Delivered over to Sanhedrin, governors/kings.
5. Betrayals, arrests, trials.
This stuff happened.
Verse 23 is emphatic: Literally, “But you YOURSELVES watch; I have told you everything ahead of time.”
BrianD or Michael…got one stuck in the filter…it has a few verse refs…thanks 🙂
Event Two: The Return of Christ:
Mark 13:24-27
No warning signs. In Mark’s account, the Second Coming will not be preceded by any premonitory (forewarning) signs. It will, however, be unmistakable.
1. The sun will be darkened.
2. The moon will not give its light.
3. The stars will fall from the sky.
4. The heavenly bodies will be shaken.
5. The Son of Man will come with glory and power with his angels and gather his elect.
He will come “Like a Thief”…no warning signs: 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10
The Two Parables:
The Fig Tree
Mark 13:28-31 “When YOU see these things happening”…”THIS GENERATION”…”all these things have happened.”
The Fig Tree metaphor shows “warning signs” and is used in tandem with the first prophecy…the prophecy for “this generation”…
Mark 13:4 “Tell us, when will these things happen”…is asked right after Jesus references the destruction of the temple.
The Watchman
Mark 13:32-36 “No one knows about the day or hour…” “when THAT time will come…”
This is consistent with Jesus coming “Like a Thief”…
Mark 13:24 Mark 13:26 Mark 13:32
“But in THOSE days, following THAT distress…”
“At THAT time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds…”
“No one knows about THAT DAY or hour…”
“You do not know when THAT TIME will come…”
Second part (part 2) is stuck in the filter…please help 🙂
done, Believe.
i tend to Grendal’s handling of Scriptures where i can’t seem to find a satisfying answer…
never looked up ‘generation’ that i can recall, but one usage jumped out at me as i did so just now (Vine’s #2 below )- i don’t think that i’ve ever heard that taught as our Lord’s intended application?
“genea
Pronunciation
ge-ne-ä’ (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From (a presumed derivative of) γένος (G1085)
TDNT Reference
1:662,114
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
…..”
SMW, you did ask for some scholarship, buti jumped in anyway 😆 cuz you got me thinking, too — and i learned something … well, i increased my frame of reference a bit…
thanks for the goad
Read the historical account of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2850/2850-h/book6.htm
Read through the entire accounts…they fulfill all the prophecy of the Destruction of the Temple…IMO.
Interested in opinions…the argument seems pretty solid to me. I’ve poked at it from several directions (on my own…in the past).
Believe,
Your perspective is the classic “preterist” perspective, meaning it was all fulfilled in history past (by 70AD). Some problems with the preterist view from the text that I see are:
1) The Abomination of Desolation is looked at something future: Mark 13:14, “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.”
2) Was 70AD the worst tribulation that has ever occurred in the history of the world, an event so bad that if the Lord had not shortened it no flesh would have been saved? Mark 13:19-20, “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. “Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.”
3) In 70AD was the moon darkened and did the stars fall from the heavens? Mark 13:24-25, “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.”
[1]
[1] New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995. LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
[1]
[1] New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995. LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
I just like how Matt 24 & 25 fit right together as a continuous time line. The destruction of the Temple, the scattering of the people (70AD) and the first half of 25 being the period now of faithfully awaiting the return during difficult times, followed in v.31 with the actual return of Christ for judgment.
It cuts out the whole rapture, Israel and new Temple stuff leaving a pretty simple scenario – watch, wait and stay faithful during troubling times and Jesus will return to judge the wicked and take His bride to be with Him forever – Amen. 🙂
( | o )====:::
I really appreciate your missional perspective. However, I don’t want to try to make any passage of scripture come to any conclusions or say anything it was not intended to say. Nonetheless, you have some good points!
Em,
So, after looking up that definition of the word ‘generation’, what might the text be saying?
M*B,
“How about planting a church in some godforsaken area crumbling with crime and socioeconomic pain, devastated by the economy, severely spiritually dark, and without a true gospel witness for the last 40 years or so?”
To be fair (since I was the one who brought it up) – that is exactly what Greg laurie did, almost 40 yrs ago when he went to Riverside. It was a god forsaken place (believe me, I lived their for 20 yrs), crime ridden etc – and harvest has had a tremendous impact on the city.
ugh
Dread,
Are you speaking a Navajo greeting? If so, ‘ugh’ back.
Believe,
I believe 2 Thessalonians also speaks of the Abomination of Desolation as a yet future event: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
SMW…that’s why I am not a complete Preterist.
While I believe the Mark 13 take that my local pastor lays out…it is not necessarily contradictory to the passage you reference…and an End of Days interpretation similar to Walid Shoebat’s.
John Wooden 1910-2010
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/news/story?id=5253601
SMW…I don’t believe that what is referenced in 2 Thess. is the same event Jesus referenced in Mark 13.
SMW, regarding generation? i could guess that He meant the Church (family), but i don’t know – just never heard any teaching that interpreted it in that way … dunno
i do like the back and forth on the topic here because… if there ever was a consensus, i’d be sure the end was near
In fairness to Greg, it is possible that some people might be more inclined to go to a Harvest-like church in that particular area than any other.
Believe,
I’d like you to consider the 20 plus parallels between Paul’s teaching in his Thessalonian correspondence on the parousia and Jesus’ teaching on the parousia in Matthew 24:
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2010/03/if_it_looks_like_the_rapture_quacks_like.php
Also, I don’t share the assumption as many do that Matthew and Luke have the same purpose in their respective eschatological discourse; i.e. preterist interpreters are notorious for collapsing Matthew’s purpose into Luke’s, as if they have the identical intention. I think there are good reasons that Mathew has an absolute futurist outlook in Matthew 24.
Thanks,
Alan
Believe,
I’d like you to consider another point. In Matthew 24:29, Jesus says “immediately.” If you are a consistent preterist then you must view the parousia in Matthew 24 as occurring in around AD 70. If not, then here is my argumentation that your partial-preterist position is inconsistent. I wrote it in view of historicism, but in principle it can be applied to partial-preterism:
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2010/01/_immediately_in_matthew_2429_undermines.php
Em,
😆
Believe,
Does partial preterist = dual fulfillment?
Alan…thank you…I will review and consider. I appreciate the input.
RE: Greg
Why? Maybe because he lives a lot nearer to Irvine than to Riverside. Just saying…
RE: eschatology
I love that you guys can discuss this without falling into calling each other heretics. Thanks!
SMW…my current “partial-preterist” or “hybrid” position…is yes. Dual fulfillment.
Meaning two prophecies…one already fulfilled in 70 A.D. …one yet to be fulfilled in the End of Days…
One Abomination of Desolation referenced by Jesus in Mark…fulfilled when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple…and one prophecy yet to come…when the Anti-Christ sits in the Temple and declares himself to be God.
I believe the Anti-Christ is the Madhi…the 12th Imam…and that an Islamic State will form and dominate the Middle-East (led by Iran and now Shiite dominated Iraq)…and that the Madhi will have super-natural powers and will deceive many…
Speaking is the False Prophet about The Anti-Christ…the 12th Imam…The Madhi…
Islam’s Messiah…is our Anti-Christ.
Thanks Bella that was a very interesting video. I had a long response but felt I should just say thanks. I hope Mr. Haggard and his family can help those that come. May God be glorified and proclaimed.
You folks who see dual fulfillment in the Olivett Discourse, do you see the entire discourse as having dual fulfillment, or do you see some as relating just to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, and part of it relating to the Second Coming of Christ?
And, no one has tried to answer my question about the statement concerning “this generation” as related to the dual fulfillment. Can that statement refer to the Second Coming of Christ, or can it only refer to the destruction of 70AD? Where did the Greek studs and scholars go, did the water get too deep and they went back to get their floaties? 😆 🙂 🙂
Does anyone know where Israel’s becoming a nation is supposedly referred to in the Olivett Discourse, and thus triggering the calculation of when “this generation” begins? I think I remember reading once that Jesus comment about the “fig tree” showing its leaves referred to Israel becoming a nation in 1948… Is it possible that Jesus was not referring to Israel becoming a nation as triggering this? Obviously, from the pre-trib perspective Israel’s becoming a nation (currently an apostate nation) is a key event…
Alan,
I have read your articles from your pre-wrath website, and I take it that you see the return of Christ referred to in the Olivett Discourse as being the “rapture” event rather than what is referred to as the Second Coming (at the end of the Great Tribulation)? Is that correct?
O no…another eschatology debate…I mean discussion…maybe this one will end up better than the last 15 or 20 we had
“O no…another eschatology debate…I mean discussion…maybe this one will end up better than the last 15 or 20 we had”
(Sarcasm Alert) It will…if everyone will just see it “my” way…since I am special and have the only direct revelation from God Himself… 8)
On a serious note…real excited to have Alan K. on here…reading through his site and learning A LOT. Hope he continues to participate on the PP…we can all learn a lot from a guy like him…
SMW,
Pre wrath views the Rapture and Second Coming as one event.
SMW,
The rapture will initiate the second coming (1 thess 4:15). Here is a good analogy. When we think of the first coming of Christ we do not limit it to just the birth of Christ. The rapture is part of the first coming, indeed God’s first divine purpose to gather his people together, but there are subsequent events within the second coming. I even believe that the second coming extends into the millennium since that will be a time in which Christ’s presence (parousia) is culminated.
*Correction: The rapture is part of the second coming. haha
Alan,
I knew what you meant. Thanks!
Michael,
It sure seems unconditional in Mark 11:25, “Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.”
How much more unconditional can you be than by saying, “whenever”?
Oops, wrong thread…
Is the Watchtower really the most read mag?
Or is it the most distributed mag?
It’s a freebie. Passed out door to door. Residents accept the mag to be polite.
This is a case of don’t go by the headlines.
Facts man. What are the facts?
I agree with Robin, that it is likely the most distributed, not the most read. Many exJWs tell of how they dumped piles of WTs in various public places, and got rid of them any way they could, because there were personal repercussions for not doing enough for Jehovah, namely distributing the mags.! Some even threw them into dumpsters.