Things I Think

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149 Responses

  1. Xenia says:

    You thought some pretty good thoughts this Monday, Mr. Newnham.

    I envy those who believe that their sect of Christianity has all the answers. <<<<

    As someone who has chosen to buy a whole package of belief and practices, I find I am mentally freed up to do other things in the Kingdom without the burden of second-guessing everything. Seriously, it is very freeing.

  2. Michael says:

    Thank you, Xenia.
    I once was freed up like that when I swallowed the whole Reformed package.
    I just couldn’t maintain it intellectually.
    That might be my problem. 🙂

  3. Xenia says:

    Eastern Orthodoxy does not have much in the way of a systematic theology. We have a lot of things we believe to be true but they are not packaged in any systematic way. I think this is easier to accept (maybe gradually) than to attempt to digest and affirm something as large and detailed as, say, the Westminster Confession of Faith. We don’t have anything remotely like this, apart from the Nicene Creed and the findings of the Seven Councils, which pretty much all Christians adhere to.

  4. Em says:

    i think – dunno – that coming as a learner, as a little child (figurative, not literal) one comes to Jesus to absorb all the knowledge we can about Him – ideally growing as a child grows in a family…
    as i’ve read everyone’s comments here over the years, i see clearly why there is a special hell waiting for those dishonest shepherds

    God give us honest teachers that we don’t have to second guess – good shepherds of the Master’s sheep

  5. JoelG says:

    Maybe #10 is why books like “Radical” and “Crazy Love” inspires some and causes others (me) to despair. We all have different personalities, experiences, etc. I hope evangelicalism learns this someday before it burns more of God’s people out.

    Thanks for the good thoughts!

  6. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    The stumbling block for me is that it’s an all or nothing proposition.
    I accept the majority of views expressed in the WCOF…but not all.
    I destined to roam the buffet table of Christiandom. 🙂

  7. Steve Wright says:

    I recently watched the History of the Eagles that originally came out a couple years ago which was being replayed after Frey’s death. There is no doubting the musical talent of Henley and Frey but their arrogance and treatment of other bandmates left a lot to be desired….Don Felder especially got the shaft pretty hard….Felt bad for him.

    The interesting thing is to note the maturity from the wild 70s “kids” to married adults with children and sobriety, and yet they did not mature from the arrogance as to the band…kinda sad.

  8. Josh the Baptist says:

    1. Good point. I wish I had a larger view so that I could see the places that God’s kingdom is breaking out. I would like to go there.

    2. I don’t have facebook friends who post such things, but they do immediately over value the artistic contributions of the one who just died. It’s almost as obnoxious.

    3. I have zero hope in a political answer for the problems in our world and our nation. None. Now, that flies in the face of many of my dearest Christian friends on the bothe the right and the left, but it is true.

    4. Amen.

    5. Haven’t learned that one yet. I’m so helpful to Jesus that I see some burdens He’s carrying that have nothing to do with me and grab hold and try to carry them, along with all mine. Plus some that I just imagine. This yoke is not easy and this burden is not light.

    6. True that. We need more servants, less leaders.

    7. I don’t think the SBC has all the answers. I don’t FULLY agree with all the answers that they give. But I submit. I think it is an important lesson to learn. In some secondary issues, maybe we should just submit?

    8. Yep. I wonder sometimes if my drive for Biblical and doctrinal knowledge, is to cover for the lacking in my knowledge of Christ himself.

    9. I wore a plaid tux at my wedding.

    10. I’m too comfortable for that.

  9. Michael says:

    Thanks, JoelG!

  10. Kevin H says:

    Hmm, #6….. the ends not justifying the means. I have been thinking through some similar thoughts. Maybe you’ll see them soon. 🙂

  11. Michael says:

    Josh…well done. 🙂

    The point about submission is interesting…I’ve wondered about that myself.

  12. Francisco Nunez says:

    Re#10 “afflicting the comfortable and comforting the afflicted…while accepting affliction Himself and eschewing the powers of this world. I think our job description is the same”

    The above functions are without a doubt an integral part of the pastoral calling. It is naturally in our DNA to comfort and encourage the afflicted but we must also not ignore afflicting the comfortable. Most importantly as pastors we must not ignore restoring the unrepentant, this is critically just as important.
    Be blessed today.

  13. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    I await those thoughts eagerly. 🙂

  14. Michael says:

    Well said, Francisco…

  15. Donna says:

    This is good stuff today. Thank you.

  16. Michael says:

    Thank you, Donna!

  17. Xenia says:

    Comforting the afflicted…

    I believe a mentally ill person is afflicted and needs comforting as best as one can.

    But how can you discern someone who has a genuine mental illness from someone who has a personality disorder, or just a rotten personality?

    A mentally ill person needs comforting.
    A narcissistic person needs afflicting.

    I can’t always tell them apart and I know in my life I have goofed more than once.

    For one thing, many mentally ill people appear extremely self-centered yet are truly ill and need to be treated with gentleness and compassion. But some people are just self-centered but maybe act a little odd to keep you on the hook….

  18. Josh the Baptist says:

    My pioused answer would be to err on the side of comforting.

    My truth would be to avoid all people outside of immediate family.

  19. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    That is a very, very, difficult question and one that myself and my loved ones are wrestling with on a daily basis.
    My choice has been to err heavily on the side of comfort…while setting boundaries for acceptable behaviors.
    Some think me a fool for doing so…sometimes I feel like a fool.
    One pretty much has to follow their heart and pray for the best.

  20. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Great stuff today Michael! Determining eternal fates is better left to Jehovah and Jesus. I do believe all people who have died are resting in their graves until the first or second ressurection.

  21. Andrew says:

    All narcissists are mentally ill but not all mentally ill are narcissists. Narcissism is just a subset of the larger class of mental illness. I think with this in mind it is probably safe to say that many in the pulpit are mentally ill. But this illness is curable with a big fat dose of compassion, confession, resignation and brutal honesty. These men certainly don’t belong in the pulpit and for this I pray for their affliction but other than that I am with Michael to err on the side of comfort and set appropriate boundaries for behavior of a narcissistic person.

  22. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    As far as Seventh-day Adventistism goes, my only disagreement is on the over emphasis on vegetarianism in some Adventist circles. While it is certainly good counsel to reduce meat comsumption, it is not a command. I am eating less meat these days for health reasons not because scripture says so which it doesn’t. Thankfully my SDA fellowship is very balanced. Only 20 perecent of Adventists are vegetarians the rest of us just abstain from pork and the sea scavengers.

  23. Andrew says:

    Who’s counsel to reduce meat? The Atkins diet pretty much encourages lots of meat eating. Personally I try to stay away from the carbs from a health perspective.

  24. Xenia says:

    Thanks, all. I have been offering comfort yet setting boundaries with a particular individual. I will continue!

  25. Babylon's Dread says:

    I love Matt 11 the whole of the chapter. It was a large part of my theological and scriptural basis for perpetuating spiritual gifts

  26. Josh the Baptist says:

    SDA thinks there is a biblical reason for abstaining from pork?

  27. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “SDA thinks there is a biblical reason for abstaining from pork?”

    Yes, they follow the Muslim laws

  28. Babylon's Dread says:

    John was very clear in his designation that Jesus was the anointed one but the nationalistic and politicized view of the coming kingdom obscured the work of Jesus and offended John’s mind.

  29. Michael says:

    BD,

    #28…exactly.
    Make your own application in this election cycle… 🙂

  30. Josh the Baptist says:

    What reason do we have to think that John the Baptist was thinking about an eartly leader here?

  31. Dan from Georgia says:

    Those who think they have all the answers and have everything right…

    are usually the ones that we need to fear the most.

  32. Michael says:

    Josh,

    We know from extra biblical writings that the Jewish expectation was that the Messiah would be both a political and spiritual leader.

  33. Josh the Baptist says:

    Yes, but I’m not sure John the B was on that train. He seemed to have a deeper understanding of the Messiah, and what he was to be. Which is why I think Jesus answered in the way He did. It wa an affirmation for John, that wouldn’t be affirming for anyone looking for an earthly ruler.

    Just thoughts.

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I taught this passage a couple of months ago as Jesus playing the ying to John’s yang. John knew he was going to be executed and needed to get his disciples to Jesus – but he couldn’t just give them the answers, they needed to hear it from Jesus.

    So he sent them with the questions and Jesus delivered the answers.

    John knew who Jesus was – remember that Lamb of God thing to take away the sins of the world? But John’s disciples were no necessarily sold.

  35. Michael says:

    I think the very fact that John asked the question shows us his doubts.
    I think Jesus answer about not being an offense to those who expected something different affirms that understanding.

  36. Jean says:

    “I envy those who believe that their sect of Christianity has all the answers.”

    How about the answer to just one question: How to find a merciful God?

  37. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I think all sects of Christendom believe they offer the way to a merciful God.

  38. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Hmm, I have never heard anyone teach the Jesus baptism section and include “but later John doubted all that he taught.”

    I think he sent the question as the disciples would not know what to ask or even yet, feel like they were walking alone into a competitors camp.

    But I guess we don’t know because it doesn’t say.

  39. Michael says:

    On my better days I affirm all the doctrines I know enthusiastically.
    When trials pile up…the doubts creep in.

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t know about all the answers, but I think that the answers the Lutheran church, at least the LCMS, has are true.

    But I can be convinced otherwise – I was part of group(s) who also proclaimed they had the truth and I followed, led and taught … until I heard the rest of the story and moved on.

  41. Randy says:

    Xenia, Actually Eastern Orthodvy has a large body of systematic theology. The early church fathers wrote a lot and the tradition continues to this day. It’s a rich tradition and sometimes difficult to read.

  42. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Jesus made salvation simple. This is where we het away from all the dogmas, creeds etc. And go by scripture

    John 17:3 (KJV)

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Eternal life is found in the One true God the Father and Him (Jesus Christ) whom thou (The Father) has sent. By knowing the Father and His literal Son Jesus, we will have eternal life.

  43. Josh the Baptist says:

    AS long as you abstain from pork?

  44. Steve Wright says:

    My take – the OT prophesied both a coming King and a suffering Servant. Jesus is both – there are not two Messiahs, but one who comes twice.

    John the Baptist, no different than the disciples later would do, thought in terms of the King, his message was about the judgement the Messiah would bring. Make the paths straight is practically a quote from when a king would come through a village.

    As Jesus seemingly lingered, John was confused and whether one interprets his question as legitimate or as a prod to “get the show on the road” it still is significant that the answer Jesus gives is to quote the Scripture that speaks of the works the Messiah would do when He arrived – in other words, Jesus answers with an affirmative, yes, I am the One, but dismisses entirely the talk of the political aspects..as He also does in Acts chapter One.

    John the Baptist I think is properly excused for wondering such things, whereas any Christian today (or for that matter, starting in Acts 2) should know better about such earthly political realities.

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Ellen, I think that verse shows why we need the creeds etc.

    What if a JW quoted you that verse? Are you believing that he has eternal life? I would think he is saying that he knows the One true God the Father and Him (Jesus Christ)?

  46. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    MLD,

    JW’s teach that Jesus is a created angel, that is heresy!

    The bible over and over again says that Jesus is God’s only begotten Son.

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Ellen – you just stated your creed – which is my point. We cannot work independent of creeds (even if it is just your own) church history and the thought s of those who came before us.

    Creed just means “I believe” – which just means you like your creeds better than mine.

    What does begotten mean? What about all those “begats” in the Bible? Those folks were created beings? I don’t disagree with what you say, but I don’t know that the Bible says it by itself.

  48. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    MLD,

    Begotten means sole child, only born

  49. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So you believe Jesus was a created being also. Perhaps you haven’t gotten that JW background out of your system.

  50. Randy says:

    Begotten mean unique, only one like fin. It is a different Greek stem than one that mean begotten.

  51. Steve Wright says:

    What does begotten mean?
    —————————–
    MLD…think on the Nicene creed for a moment and you will recognize this is not your best example to make your point. 🙂

    No, your basic dictionary is better for that…and it will explain why the same word is used in Matthew’s genealogy of human births, and the Incarnation.

  52. Steve Wright says:

    I think a dictionary could be used in this thread….Randy and E.G.White’s disciple are both incorrect.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3439&t=KJV

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1080&t=KJV

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, I am playing off what Ellen is saying – he doesn’t believe in the creeds so I cannot present the creeds to him. But if he defines begotten as a created (born person) what can I say other than to point out his heresy.

    I used his definition to tell him what he really believes.As I said, using the Bible by itself is not always self explanatory — as can be seen by your pulling out a dictionary or the use of commentaries.

  54. Xenia says:

    Begotten is a difficult word and has lead to heresies over the centuries. Begotten is *usually* used in the sense of ordinary human propagation: Abraham begot Isaac. In the case of the Second Person of the Trinity, it obviously means something different. Rather than suggesting there was a time when the Son was not and then He was “begotten,” it is instead about the relationships within the Holy Trinity. There never was a time when the Son was not. Begotteness refers to the Father/ Son relationship, which is how the Trinity reveals itself to mankind.

    The Father in unbegotten.
    The Son is begotten of the Father
    The Spirit proceeds from the Father

    All three are co-eternal and con-substantial, of one essence with each other. (homoousios).

    When the Scriptures say Christ is the “only begotten Son of God” it is not referring to the Incarnation, although it is true that Christ was begotten, in time, of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. The Son is eternally begotten of the Father, however.

  55. Xenia says:

    Hi Randy, I certainly did not mean to say that the Orthodox have not written books on theology! I am referring to a particular type of theological work which is not common in Orthodoxy. There are a few that I know of:

    St. John Damascene’s The Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith written in the 8th century (but still much read):

    http://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactidx.html

    And Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Fr. Michael Pomazansky.

    http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Dogmatic-Theology-Concise-Exposition/dp/0938635697

    These books are a bit different from the systematic theology books that are common in other parts of Christianity, I think.

  56. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Fundamental Beliefs – Seventh-Day Adventist 144,000 Remnant Congregation

    I.That there is one God Jehovah, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7.

    II. That there is one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, the one by whom God created all things, and by whom they do consist; that he took on him the nature of the seed of Abraham for the redemption of our fallen race; that he dwelt among men full of grace and truth, lived our example, died our sacrifice, was raised for our justification, ascended on high to be our only mediator in the sanctuary in Heaven, where, with his own blood he makes atonement for our sins; which atonement so far from being made on the cross, which was but the offering of the sacrifice, is the very last portion of his work as priest according to the example of the Levitical priesthood, which foreshadowed and prefigured the ministry of our Lord in Heaven. See Lev. 16; Heb. 8:4, 5; 9:6, 7; c.

  57. Cash says:

    On the subject of mental illness, may I recommend our own E-Runner’s site More than Coping? It can be found on this blog’s blog roll. https://morethancoping.wordpress.com Great information from a Christian perspective. Educating oneself to mental illness is the key I think to a better understanding and therefore a better treatment of the mentally ill.

  58. Babylon's Dread says:

    Interesting,

    I did not know that people are troubled by the idea that John lost his bearing and confidence in prison. I believe he surely did. I speculate that the ongoing existence of John’s disciples might indicate that some of the disciples followed John’s concerns and stayed outside the Jesus sect.

    For me it is perfectly understandable and the passage is fantastically lucid about the matter. How did John know who Jesus was? He knew because he “saw” the Holy Spirit upon Jesus. What did John proclaim about Jesus? Primarily that he was the one who would baptize them all in the Holy Spirit. That theme is primary in what we know of John even over the theme about the lamb of God which I believe was incipient, not well developed as to how it would work out. The next theme was the presence of the Kingdom. The Kingdom was at hand because the anointed King was at hand.

    How did Jesus answer John? Very interesting, he answered by giving signs of the presence of the Holy Spirit working through him. THUS, John called him the anointed one and Jesus replied to John manifesting the presence of the anointing in his life.

    The Kingdom was “in the Holy Spirit” not in the body politic and therein lies the quagmire and the one we still foment over

  59. Xenia says:

    Ellen :),

    Your description of the Son is not that much different from the description offered by the JW’s. Do you believe that the Son is co-eternal with the Father and the Spirit?

  60. Xenia says:

    We don’t need to be troubled if John the Baptist had a few moments of doubt. He wasn’t the Messiah himself, after all, and was a sinner just like the rest of humanity. If doubting was even a sin in this situation…

  61. Xenia says:

    Hi Cash, I should have thought of eRunner’s blog myself! Thank you.

  62. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Xenia,

    We believe he was born, begotten and brought forth in eternity from the Father (Proverbs 8:22-31) Not a son by creation as the angels (JW view), nor a son by adoption as the forgiven sinner but a Son begotten from Jehovah. Jehovah’s literal Son. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation according to scripture.

  63. Cash says:

    Hi Xenia,

    Good to see you. 🙂

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Ellen,
    Was there a time that he son was not?
    Actually that is a hard question to even ask properly since Jesus created time.

  65. DavidH says:

    2. I gave up trying to discern other peoples salvation. Two of my favorite musicians died in the past four weeks – Lemmy Kilmister, and David Bowie. Neither was a paragon of virtue. They made music I like, so I’ll miss their music. For my generation we are going to see the passing of dozens musicians I grew up with. So, we’re going to hear the “eternal damnation” rants over and over again.

    RE: Mental Illness. I’m still reeling from the suicides last year of two of my dearest friends. I miss them. I’ve had my own battles with depression/anxiety, and maybe I’ve come through to the other side. One step at a time, one second at a time. At least I can sleep again.

  66. Em says:

    John the Baptist was sitting in prison waiting to have his head removed; isn’t it reasonable to interpret his question to a hope that this was the time of the prophesied King and therefore, perhaps he’d be rescued? As has been noted, even if unique, he WAS only human. He had to know prophesy and i’m pretty sure that he was settled in his mind that Jesus was God’s Son – but i’m not sure that it was clear to him that there’d be a second coming.

    not too different than all of us through the ages, knowing of Christ’s return and hoping that it will be today

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Some of you must have weird friends on FB – I did not have a single person even come close to suggest that David Bowie or anyone else who has died is going to hell.

    How does this even come up on your FB as a topic?

  68. Xenia says:

    Ellen, is the Son co-equal with the Father in your view?

    Does this diagram accurately illustrate your view of the Trinity?

    http://i.stack.imgur.com/R7dzs.png

  69. Scott says:

    Jesus was not “brought forth into eternity”. He is eternal and there has never been a time when he wasn’t.

  70. Josh the Beloved says:

    Because im finite in understanding I honestly admit I dont fully understand how three eternal seperate all omnipotent persons who have no beginning and no end share such a oneness in singularity and equally under title of God Almighty the creator. Yet there is an honor in tri unity where the Fathers will has pre eminence.

    But this is my written creed how I believe.

    What is your confessional creed relative to the Holy Trinity?

    Make your own application 😀

  71. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Scott,

    Do you believe that Jehovah and Jesus jave a real Father- Son relationship? I believe Jesus was brought forth in eternity in time out of mind from the Father’s bosom.

    Xenia,

    I believe in the Godhead Trio

    The Father and the Son and their Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus is equal with the Father in nature being that they are of the same substance (DNA) but that the Father Jehovah is the head of Christ in position which is what Paul the Apostle says. Also in 1 Corinthians 15 it says at the end of the thousand years Jesus will turn the Kingdom back over to His Father so that God may be all in all. I believe that while Jesus and Jehovah are of the same substance they are two separate distinct beings who are one in mind, purpose and spirit (The Holy Spirit).

  72. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    1 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV)

    3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    This clearly makes a distinction between God and Christ and that the Father has headship over His Son.

  73. Surfer51 says:

    When a brother first accepts Jesus Christ, he may have many strange ideas, but you still must see the Christ coming forth in him.

    No matter how confused he is mentally, God is getting his heart together, and down in his heart Christ lives.

    Regardless of how inadequate, immature, and undeveloped that person is, he is a member of Christ; and what you do to him, you are doing to Christ.

    That man must also be convinced that what He does to himself, he is doing to Christ.

    During a time of discouragement, he may go out and get drunk.

    This means that he got Christ drunk.

    Perhaps you object to that kind of thinking.

    Do you prefer Paul’s way of expressing it?

    He said, ” If you have sexual intercourse with a harlot, you are bringing Christ into an adulterous, fornicating situation.”

    What you do to the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit where Christ dwells, you are doing to Christ.

    There will have to be a new respect and reverence for the Christ who dwells within us.

    We shall come to know one another not after the flesh, but as fellow members of Christ.

    God’s end – time move is more than restoration of the New Testament Church in a many membered body.

    Only to see individuals move in a ministry was never God’s plan, but rather to see the Body of Christ come together, to see the Son of God manifested in many sons.

    It is not the manifestation of you as a son, but the manifestation of Christ, the pattern Son, in you.

    Every member in the Body will conform to Him.

    Every member will take on the same life and the same being, the same nature and the same oneness.

  74. Surfer51 says:

    Jesus Christ is the Divine expression of God.

    God expresses Himself through Christ the Word.
    John 1:1

    1 …and the Word was with God,…

    John does not say that the Word was a God.

    At the beginning of time before anything was made we find Christ the Word.

    The Word was from the beginning and the Word was in the beginning.

    The Word is eternal.

    The Word in regard to essence and substance was God.

    God was what the Word was.

    A Living Word.

    John wants us to see this greatest of all mysteries that cannot be adequately described.

    It is truly a Divine mystery beyond the grasp of intellect, we know and accept the information in our spirits by faith.

    But we can know the beauty of unity that we see in John 1:1 that exist between the Word and God.

    John 1:2
    The same was in the beginning with God.

    (KJV)

    Christ the Son enjoyed eternity with God the Father and was Himself from eternity with God Almighty.

    The Word coexisted with the Father from the beginning, co eternal.

    Some cults teach that the Father created the Son, making Jesus not eternal.

    John refutes this notion by this verse.

    God paid for our salvation so that we might enter into eternity and be with Him in this same loving relationship.

    In reference to this relationship Jesus prayed:

    John 17:22-24
    2 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    24 Father, I will that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou hast lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    (KJV)

    The Father loved the Son before the foundation of the world.

    1 John 4:16

    16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

    (KJV)

    It is an incredible love relationship that God desires to have with us for all eternity.

    For God is love.

    Scripture says:

    2 Peter 3:9

    9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    This we can and do understand with our minds.

    In loving response we invite Christ the Son of God into our lives and enter into this fantastic love relationship that has always existed and will always exist.

    This is a foundational fact of why we exist.

    If he had then that would mean Jesus was a created being who worked his way into divinity.

    And that would mean everybody could become divine.

    He states that the Word ” was God.”

    Our complete text of verse one in plain everyday English says:

    “At the border of the first place of time and position there existed the unchanging Divine Expression,

    and the Divine Expression was consistently with the Supreme Divinity, and the Divine Expression was the Supreme Divinity.”

    At the beginning of time before anything was made we find Christ the Word.

    And the only way to do that is through the living Word of God, Jesus Christ.

    He loves us desperately.

    He went through great agony to make the way for us to enter onto a loving relationship with Him.

    Jesus Christ died for you.

    He suffered all things He did for the joy that was set before Him.

    What was that joy?

    The joy was that He knew one day we would be able to come to God through Him, and come in the righteousness of Jesus Christ – not the righteousness of man, not the righteousness of the law, but righteousness of the Son of the living God risen from the dead.

    I can come and appear before the throne of grace, the throne of unmerited favor, and stand there because Jesus Christ has made me whole.

  75. Surfer51 says:

    John 1:1

    1 …and the Word was with God,…

    John does not say that the Word was a God.

    If he had then that would mean Jesus was a created being who worked his way into divinity.

    And that would mean everybody could become divine.

    He states that the Word ” was God.”

  76. Surfer51 says:

    “There be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
    ~Galatians 1:7,8

    Some people just do not study the Holy Bible. As a result they do not have a firm foundation in Christ Jesus.

    And some people do.

    Which one are you?

    Acts 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    Check out the truth about this dangerous cult:

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Seventh-Day%20Adventist/sda_cult.htm

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Seventh-Day%20Adventist/sda_occult.htm

    Seventh Day Adventist are indeed a cult…
    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2015/06/seventhday-adventist-are-indeed-cult.html

  77. Em says:

    Surfer, i think i’d question the assertions in your 1st link… for instance the shape of Ellen G.’s tombstone is a fairly common shape of the period

  78. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Surfer,

    It was the Roman Church that perverted the gospel.

  79. Josh the Beloved says:

    I totally support SDA emphasis on dietary restrictions.

    It just means more lobster and crab cakes for me.:D

  80. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV)

    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Surfer,

    Strong accusationa about SDA being a cult. Maybe before you accuse other denominations of being in a cult you should remove the pagan shekinah name from your blog.

  81. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    According to the trinity teaching, we are led to believe that there are 3 separate divine beings in the Godhead – The Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. But what does the Bible teach us about this? Are there 2 or 3 beings in the Godhead?

    How many divine beings are in the Godhead, according to the scriptures? … Godhead1 Corinthians 8:5-6 …’For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.’ … Clearly, the Bible says there are many ‘gods’ and ‘lords’ in the world, but only two divine beings in the Godhead. One God, the Father and Jesus Christ His Son.

    How many beings does the Bible say that we fellowship with? … 1 John 1:3 …’and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.’ … So our fellowship is with two beings.

    How many beings does the Bible say we need to know to have eternal life? … John 17:3 …’And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.’ … So to have eternal life we need to know two beings. The Father and His Son.

    How many beings do the apostles send greetings in the name of? … Ephesians 1:2 …’Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.’ … 2 John 1:3 …’Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.’ … So the apostles sent greetings in the name of the Father and Son only. Two beings.

    How many beings does the Bible say we need to deny to be ‘antichrist’? … 1 John 2:22 …’Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.’ … To be an ‘antichrist’, we need to deny two beings – The Father and His Son.

    How many beings did Jesus pray to while on earth according to the Bible? … John 17:1 …’These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.’ … Jesus prayed to one being in heaven while He was on earth.

    How many divine beings according to the Bible can be hated? … John 15:23 …’He that hateth me hateth my Father also.’ … Only two divine beings can be hated according to Jesus.

    How many divine beings can reveal the Father and the Son according to the Bible? … Luke 10:22 …’All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.’ … So only two divine beings can reveal the Father and Son – The Father and Son themselves!

    How many divine beings are in heaven and will be on the new earth according to Revelation? … Revelation 21:22-23 …’And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.’ … Only two divine beings are in heaven and will be on the new earth according to Revelation (See also Revelation 7:10).

    How many God’s and Mediator’s do we have according to the Bible? … 1 Timothy 2:5 …’For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.’ … So we have one God [the Father] and one Mediator [Jesus Christ], which makes two divine beings in the Godhead.

    How many divine beings does the Bible say we need to honor? … John 5:23 …’That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.’ … We honor two divine beings, the Father and Son.

    How many divine beings bare witness of Jesus Christ according to the Bible? … John 8:18 …’I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.’ … Only two divine beings bare witness of Christ, not three.

    How many divine beings does the Bible say created all things? … Ephesians 3:9 …’And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.’ … So according to the Bible, only two divine beings created all things – God the Father and Jesus Christ His Son.

    Yes, there is a Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of the Father and His Son. But the Bible is very clear on how many literal divine beings there are in the Godhead. Two, and two alone.

  82. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Check my blog out

    http://www.exposenwo.blogspot.com

  83. Josh the Beloved says:

    @ Ellen

    How is Shekinah a hebrew word which denotes the dwelling of Jehovah Gods divine presence pagan?

  84. Em says:

    mortal men arguing or even explaining the mystery of the 3 in 1 God is a naive pursuit

    God – Father, Son and Holy Spirit… the ultimate and unsearchable ‘X’ file …
    explain light, if you can, and you’ll get as close as mortal man will ever get

    be content with a working definition and praise Him – He is God and worthy to be – He is worthy to be God, that is all we know and all we need to know to believe, trust and praise Him

    “Holy, Holy, Holy – God in three Persons, Blessed Trinity”

  85. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Luke 23:35 (KJV)

    35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

    Look at this scripture and you will see that the controversy about Jesus was not whether he was God Almighty but rather the chosen of God, the Christ (anointed one).

  86. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I will take issue witrh both Em & Ellen.

    Em, you issue cannot just be tossed into the “We can’t know category” and left sitting. God has left evidences..
    So when you say why don’t we all just agree with what we know “Holy, Holy, Holy – God in three Persons, Blessed Trinity”

    So my question – how do you know that – other than some song writer wrote a jingle?

    Ellen – you take the enemy’s description of who Jesus is over what the writer’s of scripture say?

  87. Jean says:

    It is beyond ridiculous that we’re going to debate the Trinity on a Christian blog. One would think that everyone shares that belief. Questions to understand it better perhaps, but please don’t argue against the Trinity on a Christina blog.

    Hope I didn’t step out of bounds. 🙂

  88. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Is this a Christian blog? Has it been baptized in water? 😉

  89. Xenia says:

    Ellen’s view of the personhood of the Holy Spirit is heretical. It is the heresy of the ancient Pneumatomachians.

  90. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    It is their Spirit, their mind, that resides within us.

    Php 2:5 Let this MIND BE IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ BE FORMED IN YOU.

    Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the MIND OF THE SPIRIT, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    Rom 11:34 For who hath known the MIND OF THE LORD? or who hath been his counsellor?

    1Co 2:16 For who hath known the MIND OF THE LORD, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    Paul was quoting Isaiah 40:13

    Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

    Paul understood that the Spirit of the Lord is the same as the mind of the Lord.

    Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART.

    Jesus knows what is on our heart and in our mind.

    Psalm 139 connects thoughts and thinking with God’s Spirit and His presence.

    O LORD you have searched me, and known me.
    You know my sitting down and rising up;
    you understand my thoughts from afar off.
    You are acquainted with all my ways.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me.
    Where shall I go from your Spirit?
    Or where shall I flee from your presence?
    How precious also are your thoughts unto me, O God!
    Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts.

    God’s Spirit is God’s Presence, God’s thoughts. He is able through his omnipresence to know our thoughts and our “heart,” our mind. When our mind is in tune with His mind, we are at peace with God.

    2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, BE OF ONE MIND, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but TO BE SPIRITUALLY MINDED is life and peace.

  91. Jean says:

    It also sounds like Ellen’s view of monotheism is heretical. In which case, his tribe worships a different god(s) than the creator God of the OT.

  92. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Adventism is a cult, has always been a cult and when Walter Martin changed his mind about them it was because of lies told to him.

    Aside from all of the false prophecies (they number just less than those of the JWs) they placed the words of Ellen G. White (not the false speaker on this blog, but the false speaker from 150 yrs ago) and hold her writings as inspired and on par with scripture.

    “These inspired books, such as Desire of Ages, Great Controversy, and Patriarchs and Prophets, are indeed divine revelations of truth upon which we may place full dependence” (Prophetic Guidance in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, p. 20).”

  93. Michael says:

    I’ve been busy this morning and I’m trying to get the Linkathon together.

    Let’s be clear.

    The disciple of the woman who got hit in the head with a rock is spouting heresy against the Trinity.

    He has blasphemed against both Son and Spirit.

    These views are outside orthodox Christianity and are not acceptable here.

    I will deal with it more later…

  94. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Revelation 21:22 (KJV)

    22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

    Two distinct beings mentioned here, The Lord God Almighty (Jehovah) and the Lamb (Jesus Christ). How does this support a trinity. Jesus is the Lamb and the Father Jehovah is Lord God Almighty. So obviously Jesus isn’t the Lord God Almighty but rather the Lamb the literal Son of God. The trinity teaches that Jesus and Jehovah are just role playing a Father / Son relationship.

  95. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Jesus being identified as the Son of God 48 times in scripture. Jesus being identifed as the Almighty God 0 times. Phrases God the Holy Spirit 0 times in scripture.

    He is the Mighty God and the Son of God and rightfully can be called God as he is Divine being begotten, born and brought forth from His Father Jehovah in eternity as the preexistent Son.

  96. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Michael,

    At least Ellen White didnt have someone put to death like your hero John Calvin who by many accounts was an arrogant prideful haughty man. He apostatized from the faith once he put that man to death but i guess he was following his mother the Catholic Church in persecuting so called heretics. Rome and her daughters always persecute those they deem heretics. You act just like the Roman Church who has always been thw great whore. The true Church has always been in the wilderness. Read BG Wilkinson’s truth triumphant book and learn about the pagan Roman Church and their heretics like Augustine who influenced 2,000 non trinitarian celtic Christians to be slaughtered.

  97. Michael says:

    EGWD,

    Through many monicker changes and changes in which cult you were a part of you have demonstrated the sins of evangelicalism in this country.

    You have never been catechized in the early creeds or confessions of the church and you have always been too proud to study them on your own.

    You have continually been beyond correction and teaching by those with a grounding in the historic Christian faith.

    You are free to hold to any heresy you like and if your pattern continues, you will soon tire of this cult and find another.

    You are not free to spread the manure on my garden however.

    Please take this nonsense elsewhere, stop posting it here, or your ban will be swift and permanent.

  98. ( |o )====::: says:

    Hi EGWD,
    Quick question, when the person in the epistle stated, “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” why would that statement not support the Deity of Jesus?

    I’ll check back later.

    ( |o )====:::

  99. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    I worship both Jehovah and Jesus as both are divine and deserving .of worship (Revelation 5). Jehovah the Almighty God and Jesus the Mighty God and the literal Son of God.

  100. Josh the Beloved says:

    Jesus alone in Isaiah 9:6

    Is called Almighty God.

    Like the book of Mormon which is put on par with scripture as Divine by the Mormons. The SDA sect has followed down the same path. With Ellens Whites writings as being equal and divine yet lead astray its followers from early apostolic teachings.

  101. Steve Wright says:

    The later chapters of John, especially 16:12-15 deals with the nonsense that the references to Father and Son without a 3rd reference to the Spirit somehow disproves the Trinity.

    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

  102. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    G,

    I believe in the full diety of Christ as he inherited this from His Father being the express image (character) of God.

    Michael,

    The SDA denomination is the first one I have been a part of since my Roman Catholic days. I attended Calvary for a spell. I was never a JW but do have family that are. I will respect your wishes and not post my views on the Godhead.

  103. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am clear on Ellen’s position – he is a poly theist and worships 2 gods by his own statement

    “I worship both Jehovah and Jesus as both are divine and deserving .of worship (Revelation 5). Jehovah the Almighty God and Jesus the Mighty God and the literal Son of God.”

  104. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Which would be like worshiping both Thor and Zeus.

  105. Disillusioned says:

    I cringe when I consider my CC days – back when I “knew” all of the answers to everything.

    So much arrogance and ignorance. Still shaking my head at myself.

  106. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    MLD,

    I worship the Almighty God Jehovah and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. One God and one Messiah not poly theism. The trinity is the god of Rome. Jehovah is the God of Israel (Christian Congregation). Even Jesus said God was One not 3 in 1 or 1 in 3. Deuteronomy 6:4.

  107. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Friday, January 22, 2016

    Praise Jah!

    The King James Bible renders the word “Hallelujah” as “Alleluia” which is the greek word for that expresssion. Hallelujah means Praise you Jah/Jehovah. Alleluia the greek rendering for Hallelujah means praise ye Jah!, an adoring exclamation. In Hebrew, the word Hallelujah comes from the Hebrew words “halal” and “Yahh”.

    Halal meaning to celebrate, to be clear, to shine; to make a show, to boast. To commend, glory, give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of praise, rage, renowned.

    Yahh is a contraction for Yhovah and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred name:-Jah, the Lord, most vehement.

     One could argue that since the expression Hallelujah has the proper name for God, it should have been rendered as such in all translations. Either way, understanding that the expression Hallelujah means “praise ye Jah (Jehovah)”, we can rightly see that the first 6 verses in Revelation 19 are about the Almighty Jehovah, the Father of Jesus. 

    The multitudes in heaven praise Jehovah saying Salvation, and glory and honour, and power belong to our God (verse 1).

    Revelation 11:15 (KJV)

    “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    This scripture above is very revealing concerning the Godhead. Notice the words “the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;” the Lord here is obviously the Father Jehovah otherwise it wouldn’t have said “and of his Christ”. Obviously Jesus Christ belongs to the Almighty God Jehovah thereby being subordinate to Him. They are also two separate distinct beings as noted in the passage, being that the Christ belongs to the Lord (Jehovah). Logically, Christ can’t belong to himself being that the passage says he belongs to someone else, in this case his Father. This eliminates them being one in person as trinitarian’s surmise. Unfortunately the use of the word “Lord” throughout scripture has been used by trinitarian’s to confuse the Father and the Son. This theme of Jesus belonging to Jehovah and being subordinate to Him is reiterated in Revelation 12:10:

    “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”

    So here we see that Jehovah is referenced as God and He has His Christ  (anointed one) Jesus who has power. The kingdom belongs to both Jehovah God and His Christ (anointed one) as they both reign on the throne. Jehovah is above all (1 Corinthians 15) however our Lord Jesus Christ has been given an inheritance by His Father to reign over everything else excepting His Father Jehovah. We see here the beautiful Father/Son relationship and co rulership of Jehovah and Jesus. It pleases Jehovah to bestow everything in heaven and earth to the rulership of His only begotten Son.

    True and righteous are Jehovah’s judgments and he avenges His children! (Verse 2)

    Deuteronomy 32:43 (ASV)

    43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: For he will avenge the blood of his servants, And will render vengeance to his adversaries, And will make expiation for his land, for his people.

    Psalm 19:9 (ASV)

    9 The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring for ever: The ordinances of Jehovah are true, and righteous altogether.

    Revelation 6:10 (KJV)

    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    The above passages confirm the character of Jehovah as a righteous judge and we can see this from text in the old and new testaments. Jehovah avenged His children of Israel (National) in the old testament and He will avenge His children of Israel (spiritual) when he sends His Son Jesus Christ to redeem the 144,000 from the earth after calling forth those resting in graves to everlasting life.

    Jehovah will be praised as He executes justice on those who have persecuted His precious children (Verse 3). The same language in verse 3 of Revelation 19 can be found in Isaiah 34:10 in the destruction of Edom. The Great Whore (Roman Catholicism) and her harlot daughters (apostate Protestantism and Evangelicalism along with the false religions of the world) will be destroyed once and for all. This destruction will take place at the second advent of Christ our King. At the end of the millennium, all the wicked of times past will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. This destruction is on earth and is permanent and final. It is not an unending torment in a spiritual underworld. Just as the smoke and fire of Edom’s destruction is no longer burning or rising this day, the smoke and fire of the great whore’s judgment will cease once it comsumes her fully to ashes. The phraseology of the below verse in Isaiah and verse 3 of Revelation 19 is metaphorical meaning the destruction of Edom and Mystery Babylon is permanent and forever.

    Isaiah 34:10 (ASV)

    “It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

    The elders and beasts fall down and worship God who sits onthe throne saying praise ye Jah/Jehovah! (Verse 4).

    Revelation 5:14 (KJV)

    “And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.”

    Psalm 106:48 (ASV)

    48 Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, From everlasting even to everlasting. And let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye Jehovah.

    Jehovah is the God of Israel (the Christian Congregation) and he is the one that lives forever and is to be praised from everlasting to everlasting. The trinity is not the God of Israel but rather it is the god of Rome. Our God is One and he has a literal Son “The Mighty God” Jesus Christ. The Son by divine inheritance is also due worship.

    All of Jehovah’s servants who fear Him are exhorted to praise Him, both small and great (Verse 5).

    Psalm 134:1 (ASV)

    134 Behold, bless ye Jehovah, all ye servants of Jehovah, That by night stand in the house of Jehovah.

    Psalm 135:1 (ASV)

     “Praise ye Jehovah. Praise ye the name of Jehovah; Praise him, O ye servants of Jehovah,”

    Jehovah is the all powerful God (verse 6) who reigneth!

    Psalms 97:1 (ASV)

    “Jehovah reigneth; let the earth rejoice; Let the multitude of isles be glad.”

    Revelation 19:1-21 (ASV)

    1  After these things I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah; Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God:

    2 for true and righteous are his judgments; for he hath judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

    3 And a second time they say, Hallelujah. And her smoke goeth up for ever and ever.

    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped God that sitteth on the throne, saying, Amen; Hallelujah.

    5 And a voice came forth from the throne, saying, Give praise to our God, all ye his servants, ye that fear him, the small and the great.

    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah: for the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigneth.

    7 Let us rejoice and be exceeding glad, and let us give the glory unto him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.

    10 And I fell down before his feet to worship him. And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren that hold the testimony of Jesus: worship God; for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make war.

    12 And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself.

    13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.

    15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

    16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God;

    18 that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone:

    21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

  108. Nonnie says:

    According to this 7th Day Adventist site, they seem to believe in the Trinity
    https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/god/trinity/article/go/0/god-in-three-persons/

  109. ( |o )====::: says:

    Thanks.

  110. Muff Potter says:

    Y’all play nice now. Don’t go blowing up each others Mosques like they did in Mosul, or fire bombing each others churches like they used to do in Northern Ireland.

  111. Josh the Beloved says:

    I think this is the exact reason why the Apostle Paul didnt permit women to have teaching authority over the entire congregation. Because Paul cited that the nature and of women as the weaker vessal in general fall into spiritual deception by listening to the devil and error. Certainly Paul would be called a chauvinist today. But he said it and we to follow it. I believe women are often more in tune spiritually than men. Its that when you get the good stuff, you also get the bad stuff coming against you.

  112. EricL says:

    I live near one of the hot spots for SDA (Loma Linda, CA), and I’ve encountered them from all over the spectrum, from evangelical-like to cult-like. They even have one charismatic SDA church in town. The stuff that ELGWD is spouting off is as extreme as I’ve heard.

  113. Michael says:

    Good Lord…lets do a head count of cults started by men compared to those started by women…

  114. Em says:

    MLD, for dramatic effect again you snatched a sentence out of the context of what I said?

    perhaps, i wasn’t precise enough? Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God we CAN know that – we accept it as fact because it IS very clear in Scripture – but what is silly is to try to either refute this dynamic or prove it with human reason

    P.S. if you’d ever heard a congregation rise quietly to their feet on a Sunday morning and begin reverently singing acapella: “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty……” at the beginning of the service, you’d not call it a jingle … at least, i’d hope not

  115. Josh the Baptist says:

    “The King James Bible renders the word “Hallelujah” as “Alleluia” which is the greek word for that expresssion. Hallelujah means Praise you Jah/Jehovah. Alleluia the greek rendering for Hallelujah means praise ye Jah!, an adoring exclamation. In Hebrew, the word Hallelujah comes from the Hebrew words “halal” and “Yahh”.”

    This is not even close to accurate, which pretty much disproves the rest of your post. The New Testament greek word is ἁλληλουϊά .

    That is a rough breathing mark over the initial alpha which means it is pronounced with and “H”. So Hallelujah is the proper pronunciation of the Greek.

    There is no difference in definition, as this is just a Greek spelling for a Hebrew word.

  116. Josh the Beloved says:

    Of course because 3/4 of the world today and more so back 2k years ago are male dominated cultures. So opportunities are very rare and limited. So that is a false positive to use that measurement. And besides, the head female teaching pastors that are headed up by a women when I travel around the nation. Tend more to be openly lesbian promoting Christianity along the side of homosexuality. Whatever thats worth.

  117. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’m afraid people think that when you post it is me.

  118. Em says:

    googled “jah” or “Jah” … used only once – in a Psalm, but the Rastafarians call it God… my question is, why the affectation? the word is too holy to say? just don’t use it – a simple “God” will do, won’t it?

  119. Xenia says:

    Ellen mentioned at #56 the Seventh-Day Adventist 144,000 Remnant Congregation.

    From what I gather, this is not mainline Adventism but a cult within the cult.

  120. Michael says:

    As I’ve said in the past I owe my life to a Seventh Day Adventist doctor.

    I have a real soft spot in my heart for Adventists.

    Xenia has spoken well, this is a cult of Adventism being exposed here, not the mainline church.

  121. Josh the Baptist says:

    No, I think that is just the name of Solomon’s blog. I think he is presenting the official beliefs of SDA. He just isn’t adept enough to present them with the nuance that more experienced SDA apologists would.

  122. SJ says:

    Praise Jah? Huh? Doobey time in the park? Sorry in advance.

  123. Francisco says:

    The SDA church is as diverse as it large. I have found that some SDA churches are very conservative while some are essentially mainline evangelicals with SDA on their front sign. There is a local SDA pastor who is essentially a mainstream evangelical, doesn’t emphasize the SDA distinctives, and loves Christ. He even enjoys a good cup of coffee. Others however still believe in Ellen G White’s writings as authoritative , in the investigative judgment, and the doctrine of annilationism.

    This said I agree with Michael that Adventist Health is a good medical system. We have a sizable SDA community in my neck of the woods. SDA author Ellen G White actually lived and died in this area. The Adventist Health hospital in this area is a world class Heart and Health Center. I may not agree with the SDA distinctives but there is no doubt that God has used the SDA church to bless the rest of us in the body of Christ.

  124. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    1 Corinthians 8:6King James Version (KJV)

    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Let’s see, the above word of truth says One God and it is the Father. Sorry but I’ll take scripture over the philosophy of man.

    Pagan doctrines:
    Trinity -origim ancient Babylon
    Spiritualism- disembodied soul surviving death doctrine- immortal soul
    Underworld hell fire doctrine of eternal torture
    Disembodied souls floating in heaven
    Babylonian tongue speaking (gibberish)
    Adoration of cross – stauros =stake, upright pole
    Transubstantion
    Celibate preisthood
    Sunday worship
    Christmas
    Easter
    Eternity floatingaround in clouds

    SDA Pioneers were non trinitarian. They believed what the Bible said, One God the Father, One Lord Jesus Christ His literal Son and their Holy Spirit.

  125. Jean says:

    Ellen,

    You wrote:

    “I will respect your wishes and not post my views on the Godhead.”

    Was that a lie?

  126. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    We are not part of mainline SDA Church, they are apostasizing with their inclusion of homosexuals and their love of untiting with papacy. This is our home fellowship which is held at my home and of which I sheperd. Most of these were the original fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church when Ellen White and her husband were alive. Only number 9 was an addition, the rest were the SDA Pioneer beliefs.

    Fundamental Beliefs – Seventh-Day Adventist 144,000 Remnant Congregation

    I.That there is one God Jehovah, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7.

    II. That there is one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, the one by whom God created all things, and by whom they do consist; that he took on him the nature of the seed of Abraham for the redemption of our fallen race; that he dwelt among men full of grace and truth, lived our example, died our sacrifice, was raised for our justification, ascended on high to be our only mediator in the sanctuary in Heaven, where, with his own blood he makes atonement for our sins; which atonement so far from being made on the cross, which was but the offering of the sacrifice, is the very last portion of his work as priest according to the example of the Levitical priesthood, which foreshadowed and prefigured the ministry of our Lord in Heaven. See Lev. 16; Heb. 8:4, 5; 9:6, 7; c.

    III. That the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, were given by inspiration of Jehovah God, contain a full revelation of his will to man, and are the only infallible rule of faith and practice.

    IV. That Baptism is an ordinance of the Christian church, to follow faith and repentance, an ordinance by which we commemorate the resurrection of Christ, as by this act we show our faith in his burial and resurrection, and through that, of the resurrection of all the saints at the last day; and that no other mode fitly represents these facts than that which the Scriptures prescribe, namely, immersion. Rom. 6:3-5; Col. 2:12.

    V. That the new birth comprises the entire change necessary to fit us for the kingdom of God, and consists of two parts: first, a moral change, wrought by conversion and a Christian life; second, a physical change at the second coming of Christ, whereby, if dead, we are raised incorruptible, and if living, are changed to immortality in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. John 3:3, 5; Luke 20:36.

    VI. We believe that prophecy is a part of God’s revelation to man; that it is included in that scripture which is profitable for instruction, 2 Tim. 3: 16; that it is designed for us and our children, Deut. 29: 29; that so far from being enshrouded in impenetrable mystery, it is that which especially constitutes the word of God a lamp to our feet and a light to our path, Ps. 119: 105, 2 Pet. 2:19; that a blessing is pronounced upon those who study it, Rev. 1:1-3; and that, consequently, it is to be understood by the people of Jehovah God sufficiently to show them their position in the world’s history, and the special duties required at their hands.

    VII. That the world’s history from specified dates in the past, the rise and fall of empires, and chronological succession of events down to the setting up of Jehovah God’s everlasting kingdom, are outlined in numerous great chains of prophecy; and that these prophecies are now all fulfilled except the closing scenes.

    VIII. That the doctrine of the world’s conversion and temporal millennium is a fable of these last days, calculated to lull men into a state of carnal security, and cause them to be overtaken by the great day of the Lord as by a thief in the night; that the second coming of Christ is to precede, not follow, the millennium; for until the Lord appears the papal power, with all its abominations, is to continue, the wheat and tares grow together, and evil men and seducers wax worse and worse, as the word of Jehovah God declares.

    IX. That the doctrine of the secret pre tribulation rapture and earthly millennium is a fable of these last days, calculated to lull professing christians into a state of carnal security, and cause them to be deceived by the papal antichrist and the false prophet America into receiving the mark of the beast; That the second coming of Christ will be visible to all on earth and will be at the last day; That the dispensational doctrine of Geo-Political Israel being a fufillment of prophecy is a deception of these last days, calculated to get professing christians eyes off of the papacy as the antichrist; and to deceive professing christians away from the truth that the Christian Congregation is the Israel of Jehovah God made up of both Jews and Gentiles who accept His Son Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

    X. That the mistake of Adventists in 1844 pertained to the nature of the event then to transpire, not to the time; that no prophetic period is given to reach to the second advent, but that the longest one, the two thousand and three hundred days of Dan. 8:14, terminated in that year, and brought us to an event called the cleansing of the sanctuary.

    XI. That the sanctuary of the new covenant is the tabernacle of Jehovah God in Heaven, of which Paul speaks in Hebrews 8, and onward, of which our Lord, as great High Priest, is minister; that this sanctuary is the antitype of the Mosaic tabernacle, and that the priestly work of our Lord, connected therewith, is the antitype of the work of the Jewish priests of the former dispensation. Heb. 8:1-5, c.; that this is the sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, what is termed its cleansing being in this case, as in the type, simply the entrance of the high priest into the most holy place, to finish the round of service connected therewith, by blotting out and removing from the sanctuary the sins which had been transferred to it by means of the ministration in the first apartment, Heb. 9:22, 23; and that this work, in the antitype, commencing in 1844, occupies a brief but indefinite space, at the conclusion of which the work of mercy for the world is finished.

    XII. That Jehovah God’s moral requirements are the same upon all men in all dispensations; that these are summarily contained in the commandments spoken by Jehovah from Sinai, engraven on the tables of stone, and deposited in the ark, which was in consequence called the “ark of the covenant,” or testament. Num. 10:33, Heb. 9:4, c.; that this law is immutable and perpetual, being a transcript of the tables deposited in the ark in the true sanctuary on high, which is also, for the same reason, called the ark of God’s testament; for under the sounding of the seventh trumpet we are told that “the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.” Rev. 11:19.

    XIII. That the fourth commandment of this law requires that we devote the seventh day of each week, commonly called Saturday, to abstinence from our own labor, and to the performance of sacred and religious duties; that this is the only weekly Sabbath known to the Bible, being the day that was set apart before Paradise was lost, Gen. 2:2, 3, and which will be observed in paradise restored, Isa. 66:22, 23; that the facts upon which the Sabbath institution is based confine it to the seventh day, as they are not true of any other day; and that the terms, Jewish Sabbath, and Christian Sabbath, as applied to the weekly rest-day, are names of human invention, unscriptural in fact, and false in meaning.

    XIV. That as the man of sin, the papacy, has thought to change times and laws (the laws of God), Dan. 7:25, and has misled almost all Christendom in regard to the fourth commandment, we find a prophecy of a reform in this respect to be wrought among believers just before the coming of Christ. Isa.56:1, 2, 1 Pet. 1:5, Rev. 14:12, c.

    XV. That as the natural or carnal heart is at enmity with Jehovah God and his law, this enmity can be subdued only by a radical transformation of the affections, the exchange of unholy for holy principles; that this transformation follows repentance and faith, is the special work of the Holy Spirit, and constitutes regeneration or conversion.

    XVI. That as all have violated the law of Jehovah God, and cannot of themselves render obedience to his just requirements, we are dependent on Christ, first, for justification from our past offenses, and, secondly, for grace whereby to render acceptable obedience to his holy law in time to come.

    XVII. That the Spirit of God was promised to manifest itself in the Christian Congregation through certain gifts, enumerated especially in 1 Cor. 12 and Eph. 4; that these gifts are not designed to supersede, or take the place of, the Bible, which is sufficient to make us wise unto salvation, any more than the Bible can take the place of the Holy Spirit; that, in specifying the various channels of its operation, that Spirit has simply made provision for its own existence and presence with the people of God to the end of time, to lead to an understanding of that word which it had inspired, to convince of sin, and to work a transformation in the heart and life; and that those who deny to the Spirit its place and operation, do plainly deny that part of the Bible which assigns to it this work and position.

    XVIII. That God, in accordance with his uniform dealings with the race, sends forth a proclamation of the approach of the second advent of Christ; and that this work is symbolized by the three messages of Rev. 14, the last one bringing to view the work of reform on the law of Jehovah God, that his people may acquire a complete readiness for that event.

    XIX. That the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary (see propositionX), synchronizing with the time of the proclamation of the third message, is a time of investigative judgment, first, with reference to the dead, and at the close of probation with reference to the living, to determine who of the myriads now sleeping in the dust of the earth are worthy of a part in the first resurrection, and who of its living multitudes are worthy of translation—points which must be determined before the Lord appears.

    XX. That the grave, whether we all tend, expressed by the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades, is a place of darkness in which there is no work, device, wisdom, nor knowledge. Eccl. 9:10.

    XXI. That the state to which we are reduced by death is one of silence, inactivity, and entire unconsciousness. Ps. 146:4; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Dan. 12:2, c.

    XXII. That out of this prison house of the grave mankind are to be brought by a bodily resurrection; the righteous having part in the first resurrection, which takes place at the second advent of Christ, the wicked in the second resurrection, which takes place a thousand years thereafter. Rev. 20:4-6.

    XXIII. That at the last trump, the living righteous are to be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with the resurrected righteous are to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, so forever to be with the Lord.

    XXIV. That these immortalized ones are then taken to Heaven, to the New Jerusalem, the Father’s house, in which there are many mansions, John 14:1-3, where they reign with Christ a thousand years, judging the world and fallen angels, that is, apportioning the punishment to be executed upon them at the close of the one thousand years; Rev. 20:4; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; that during this time the earth lies in a desolate and chaotic condition, Jer.4:23-27, described, as in the beginning by the Greek term abussos )bottomless pit (Septuagint of Gen. 1:2); and that here Satan is ______( confined during the thousand years, Rev. 20:1, 2, and here finally destroyed, Rev. 20:10; Mal. 4:1; the theater of the ruin he has wrought in the universe, being appropriately made for a time, his gloomy prison house, and then the place of his final execution.

    XXV. That at the end of the thousand years, the Lord descends with his people and the New Jerusalem, Rev. 21:2, the wicked dead are raised and come up upon on the surface of the yet unrenewed earth, and gather about the city, the camp of the saint, Rev. 20:9, and fire comes down from Jehovah God out of heaven and devours them. They are then consumed root and branch,

    Mal. 4:1, becoming as though they had not been. Obad. 15, 16. In this everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, 2 Thess. 1:9, the wicked meet the everlasting punishment threatened against them, Matt.25:46, This is the perdition of ungodly men, the fire which consumes them being the fire for which “the heavens and the earth which are now” are kept in store, which shall melt even the elements with its intensity, and purge the earth from the deepest stains of the curse of sin. 2 Peter 3:7-12.

    XXVI. That new heavens and earth shall spring by the power of Jehovah God from the ashes of the old, to be, with the New Jerusalem for its metropolis and capital, the eternal inheritance of the saints, the place where the righteous shall evermore dwell. 2 Peter 3:13; Ps. 37:11, 29; Matt. 5:5.

  127. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)

    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    So if Jesus is Almighty God himself, who is he mediating to on our behalf?

  128. Muff Potter says:

    Ellen G. White @ # 127:

    Try thinking in non-linear terms instead of straight line segments.

  129. Ellen – well at least we know you can copy and paste – but can you have a conversation?

  130. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Eric L,

    Are you talking about Celebration Center in Redlands being the SDA Church that is pretty much evangelical?

  131. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Eric L,

    I meant Charismatic, is Celebration center the one you are thinking of? Sounds like it, I go there often actually

  132. Babylon's Dread says:

    When did this turn into a fishing hole for SDA?

  133. Jean says:

    #132, Amen!

  134. Dan from Georgia says:

    This is getting tiring…you know…scrolling down past exhausting, lengthy, overly-verbose posts to find something actually meaningful and pithy.

  135. Dan from Georgia says:

    P.S., Michael’s item number 7, more specifically, the fruits of item number 7, seem to have been on display here.

  136. Josh the Beloved says:

    Looks like Ellen’s SDA sect high jacked the JW’s 144,000 heresy.
    We all know that the SDA gentiles are really secret virgin jews from the original 12 tribes of Israel, the just dont know it yet 😉
    So Ellen, do you have a choice in what tribe you want to be from? The tribe of Dan or ?

  137. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Josh the Beloved,

    The 144,000 is simply a symbolic number of all God’s people on earth at the time of Check Christ Second Advent. They are virgins spiritually meaning they don’t corrupt themselves with the harlot churches of Babylon and their false doctrines. You do know that there is a lot of symbolism in the book of Revelation right? Unless you think this 144,000 will be an exact literal number of Jewish virgin males which is the Dispensationalists heresy.

  138. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Our motto should be: Unite in Christ and not with Rome. 11 Cor. 6:14-18; 1Jn. 4:1-3; 11 Jn. 7, 10-11).

    Finally, may I remind you that a Christian is one who believes in the Sovereignty of the One True God Jehovah, the Sonship of Jesus Christ the Messiah, and the person of the Holy Spirit. Amen!

  139. Josh the Baptist says:

    Do you know what “heresy” means?

  140. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Yes Josh I do, btw you were wrong about Hallelujah

  141. Ellen G. White Disciple says:

    Revelation 19:1-6 is about the Father

  142. Josh the Baptist says:

    No, I am second semester Greek at Luther Rice Seminary. I am 100% correct about hallelujah. I can give you as many scholarly sources as you want to back up my claim.

  143. Josh the Baptist says:

    “Unless you think this 144,000 will be an exact literal number of Jewish virgin males which is the Dispensationalists heresy.”

    Define heresy in this context, and explain how the Dispensational view of the 144,000 is heretical.

  144. Ellen, I don’t know who has gotten you under their spell, but if you think you were abused spiritually by Pancho Juarez, let me tell you, he was only fondling you. Whoever you sit under now is raping you.

  145. Josh the Baptist says:

    He said is that he is the pastor at his house church.

  146. He always does house churches – he just keeps changing franchise brands.

  147. Jean says:

    “He always does house churches – he just keeps changing franchise brands.”

    It’s a weighty thing to throw the Church fathers, the Reformers and just about every other theologian of any repute in the trash can and start from scratch. Isn’t that what Joseph Smith did?

  148. Joseph Smith at least put more effort into making up his religion. He walked around with his face in his hat looking at magic stones. I don’t think Ellen has put forth that work yet.

  149. Michael says:

    I apologize for letting this go on so long.
    It’s not fair to the readers or to Solomon.

    Solomon, you will give an account for everyone you’ve misled as a self appointed “shepherd’.
    I do not want to be a party to that, nor do I want to enable you to heap the discipline of God upon yourself.

    You are under moderation.

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