Things I Think
1. I think it…odd…that there are those who think that the Supreme Court decision on gay rights somehow affects the nations standing in the eyes of God. Do you really think that He would be pleased with us if the decision had gone the other way while another drone killed civilians on another shore? While we have the highest percent of our population imprisoned of any Western country? While we’re still trying to find those weapons of mass destruction we invaded another country to eliminate? As long as we define the whole of “morality” by sexual behavior the church will continue to be one long exercise in missing the point.
2. Most of the persecution we face for being a Christian in this country…comes from other Christians.
3. We can’t formulate cogent statements about child abuse in our churches but we’re terribly worried about what adults are doing in their bedrooms…
4. Aaron Hernandez of the New England Patriots football team was arrested for murder last week. This led to non stop blather on sports radio about the “criminal crisis” in the NFL…ignoring the 95% of players who’ve never been in trouble. Kind of reminded me of our blogs…
5. “All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”(2 Corinthians 5:18–20 ESV) This is the message that we are supposed to deliver to the culture.
Do you think this is the message the culture is hearing?
6. Finished a book on the Jesus People movement this weekend and I’m even more convinced that this was true revival, a sovereign act of God in history. We’re about due for another one and it will start on the fringes of society, just like this one did. I’ll be watching both the gay and immigrant communities…
7. When I desire retribution more than restoration I become my adversary…
8. When you lose the fear of the Lord you will inevitably come to care nothing about the love of the Lord…
9. We lost 19 firefighters in Arizona yesterday…praying for their families and home towns.
10. “Nothing that we despise in other men is inherently absent from ourselves.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer
“We can’t formulate cogent statements about child abuse in our churches but we’re terribly worried about what adults are doing in their bedrooms…”
Yup, pretty telling…
Michael, It seems you often argue for or against something based on something worse that is, in your view, going on. We should be worried about this issue. Our children are being raised in a world that demands homosexuality be accepted, more than accepted–approved, and proponents will not be satisfied until it is a perfectly normal, approved way of life. We should also be concerned about child abuse but the two issues have nothing to do with one another. It isn’t necessary to use the either/or hypothesis. It seems at times like you think there is nothing that should concern Christians until Christians are perfect themselves. Can’t you see the need for concern about the things going on? Aruge each issue on its own mertis without the straw-man comparisons please.
fyi,
I see the need…but the greater need I see is for judgment to begin in the house of God.
When you lose your moral authority through lovelessness and turning a blind eye to your own sin, no one is listening…and that’s where I think we are in general.
I’d like to read that book about the Jesus Movement. As I approach my 42nd Born Again birthday (july 12), I am a product of that movement. Definitely a miraculous and sovereign move of God and Holy Spirit. There is a church up here, Solid Rock, that is seeing incredible growth in youths that kind of reminds me of the Jesus Movement days.
I know that the church my ex and I founded in 1976 was a total miracle work of the Holy Spirit as well. How I long to see and be part of something like that again. We had no skills, no training. Nothing but faith in Jesus and HE did an amazing work…. to His praise!
The country is a sick mess, at least in the news, however, not in the news are the salt of the earth, grass roots every day people who are not a sick mess. Same for churches. Lots of ungodly drama in the blogosphere, but many more decent, quiet folks filling the pews, reading the Word, drawing near to God and living by grace quietly in their own homes.
I am interested in the book. I think revivals are sovereign moves of God but I think human responses either nurtures or snuffs such moves. I am very interested in how a move of God can be perpetuated.
As I look at the moves of Calvary Chapel and Vineyard I see moves of God that were alternately nurtured and extinguished by those leaders who received them and their associates.
Also it seems that those two moves (they might be called two parts of one thing) were ignited by the same man and that they were nurtured based upon how much offense was generated within them.
Let me be clearer. When revivalists are offensive or when revival outworkings are offensive those who attempt to domesticate and bring order often find themselves inhibiting the work of God that they have received. More to the point, Lonnie Frisbee was an offensive character but both Chuck Smith and John Wimber were likable and embraceable types. However, both Chuck and John became uncomfortable with what they thought were excesses and in the process quickened the cooling of the revivals they received.
1. I honestly don’t know what Supreme Court decision would honor God. God honors nations that honor Him. I don’t see America honoring God much these days. God will not honor a nation that does what you are describing such as the drone issue and the court/justice system. The weapons of mass destruction debate is so not an issue. Sexuality is a moral issue but I think I’m missing your point. If hypocracy is the issue I tried in my naïve way to poke at that yesterday
3. My church does something about child abuse in the same way we deal with multiculturism, good works, etc. but I won’t go into the details cuz I’ll get slammed again for appearing to be boasting. sheesh.
5. We as individuals don’t speak to the culture at large. We do speak to individuals though. It’s all under the radar. The message the culture is hearing is the one the media is giving them.
BD,
From the book it appears that what killed the movement was that the radicals grew up and got married…and lost the fervor of revival as they transitioned in to normal life.
Michael, this movement is an attack on the Word of God and it is spreading like a fire-storm throughout churches. This is one place where judgment must begin at the house of God! Of the two issues, it is certain that homosexuality coing into the church and being approved is a far greater threat than not having a unified statement on child abuse. Your later statement about blogs (#4) is significant; there are many, many more churches doing everything possible to protect children than the few who are not/will not. All I am suggesting is a little balance in discussing these issue.
6. I agree that the Jesus movement was true revival on an individual basis. I met people who tried it for a while but they had no conversion. Some people followed Jesus and many followed a charismatic leader. People ask what happened to the Jesus people. They/we grew up.
Gary.
My point is that we pick and choose our targets of moral outrage and ignore some that outrage others.
Feel free to boast about your church…we need more of that…I’d love to do a thread every week about the good things churches are doing.
7. OUCH!!
fyi,
The issue to me is that the church has lost it’s moral authority in the eyes of the culture (and some of the church itself) and that we need to clean our own house before we will be heard outside it.
10. So true. In the boxing ring I grew up in I hated my oldest sister more than my other sibs. One day I realized the reason was because I was just like her.
How does someone loose their fire? Sin. Shame.
Gary,
Not necessarily sin or shame. These folks got busy raising kids and making a living…and that’s where their energies went.
Michael,
I would say that factor is true but I am doing research that indicates that the leaders at key points quenched offensive people or experiences in order to make their churches more palatable to people who they want to enlist in their movements.
In other words the seeker driven, market driven aspects of the movements prevailed over against the radicals who were seeking God to move upon their lives in power.
BD,
No doubt a factor.
I was doing some further studies on revivals and the charismatic aspect is always there and always problematic at some point.
Michael,
In my case it was both. First the sin, then the shame, then marriage and raising a family.
The revival was real – not based on ANY man – men tried to take credit for it and that was the first nail in its demise. The revival centered around the excitement and expectancy of the LORD’s soon return — what killed the revival is how that expectancy got hijacked by those poo-pooing the rapture and coming up with Kingdom-Now expectations – that began the apostasy and as scoffers continue to say, where is His coming?, the deadness sets in even more.
Jackie,
There’s no evidence that eschatological fervor waned during that time.
I would say one of the things in the way of a new revival is the eschatology that was part of the last one…there has been untold damage done to those who expected a rapture that never came.
For me the revival was about being forgiven. It was being at peace with God, having Jesus in me, changing me. Praying for my family. Watching Jesus change them. Seeing whole crowds of people being saved and changed.
We had a bishop visit our parish yesterday, from Kiev, Ukraine. He oversees a ministry for orphans and other displaced youth. During the meal, he answered questions and someone asked him how Ukrainians viewed the US. He said that they see us as an evil empire, arrogant and aggressive. This is pretty much how most of the world views the US. The only country I know that loves us is South Korea.
The world sees us as an evil empire.
The role of rapture theology in the revival was on a number of levels. Culture was falling apart, the sexual revolution, the transition of public views of Christianity (prayer in schools and such), the imminent threat of nuclear destruction, the collapse of confidence in government (Viet Nam, Watergate) these things and more made a nation susceptible to superstitions of apocalypse. The fear of being left behind replaced the fear of hell.
Jackie may have a point, but the increasing flood of groups who are jettisoning rapture theology is a huge advance for the kingdom of God. Our message is much better without that nonsense.
Please note the coming of Jesus is a wonderful expectation … pretrib rapture fever has an inevitable apostasy. People relinquish failed ideas and false notions.
Xenia,
I think the Orthodox church sees pretty much anything else as an evil empire.
Rapture fever=escapism. Escapism tried to co-opt first love.
If the Jesus Movement was based on the false doctrine of the Rapture then it was built on shaky ground and will fall eventually. How much bad stuff has come from the so-called Jesus Movement is hard to calculate. Rock music instead of hymns, non-sacramentalism to the max, celebrity pastors, non-denom churches with no accountability, “the Me and my best buddy Jesus” mentality, etc.
Babylon’s Dread, yes, of course. And this is as it should be.
Sacramentalism=dead religion. How much bad stuff came out of dead religion impossible to calculate. I’m guessing Jesus movement bad stuff times ten thousand or more.
Every 15-20 hours an American family in this evil empire adopts a little child from the Ukraine that was abandoned (and often abused) by that child’s own people. Not just the parent – but in international adoption the Ukrainian people have to reject the child before being eligible for international adoption. Thousands of children over the past several years.
For a bishop who oversees an orphanage, I would expect better.
Gary,
As one who believes in sacraments, not ordinances, I don’t think that either my church or faith is dead religion.
Sacramentalism=dead religion<<<
The Sacrament: The medicine of immortality.
Better get some while you still can.
For a bishop who oversees an orphanage, I would expect better<<<
Oh Steve! I did not know that you were there in the church hall with us!
However, I was there and Bishop Jonah was one of the most impressive people I have met in a very long time.
Ah well, forgive me, folks. Someone I know is doing something very harmful to themselves and I am in a sour mood today. God bless America, etc.
Also, many Slavic countries are not thrilled with Americans swooping up their orphans and as you know, Russia has said Nyet to anymore American adoptions. But I say, if the Russian (et al) would adopt their own orphans, outsiders wouldn’t have to. But the societal reasons for the existence of so many orphans is a complex subject. This is all the aftermath of 70 years of godless communism. The after-effects are not wiped out in a day or even in a decade.
I financially support a family of Missionaries to the Ukraine. 🙂
I would happily support a family of Ukrainian missionaries to the US.
“Moral Authority” is a myth. I see that now. I don’t expect the church to be any different than the heathen. The “Transformation Gospel” is a false gospel. Tons of evidence to prove it.
I’ll still report the garbage as it tends to erode away the mythology and tends to knock man and ministry and movement idols off their pedestals that are in place of the true God.
My point stands. Something in the Bible about those who care for the orphans.
The evil empire judgment was made against the nation that is volunteering to take care of little children the other nation has chosen to abandon.
If the Bishop challenged the prevailing view of his people by complimenting the American people for all they do for the people of Ukraine, not just in adoption but in millions and millions of dollars in official government aid as well as private charity, as well as welcoming the multitudes of Ukrainian immigrants who have sought to live in this evil empire as they flee their own homeland……….then I stand corrected.
If sacramentalism is dead religion, then all Christianity before the rise of modern nominalist ontologies (16-17th centuries roughly) was dead. I would say, in argument, that if God is not truly, ontologically present in our worship then it is worse than dead, even evil.
RB,
Moral authority can be a myth or it can be a vital part of raising children, influencing your community, and impacting the world.
The fact that some have abused it in no way removes the reality or necessity of it.
And I know about Russia’s “nyet” to adoptions very well. My wife and I were looking to save two of those little kids, along with many many other Americans willing to do the same, when the big Russian bear said “nyet” – right in the middle of the process for so many of us.
When that sort of national pride would rather see their own children suffer than have Americans give them a better life, then how can I take seriously comments that WE are the evil empire of the two.
Sorry Xenia…a very personal and touchy subject for me. I’ll bow out now.
“If sacramentalism is dead religion, then all Christianity before the rise of modern nominalist ontologies (16-17th centuries roughly) was dead.”
Hinst the rise of modern nominalist ontologies.
#6 revival is already happening amongst the immigrant community
RB,
I obviously have no problem exposing bad guys…but I do have a problem with using them as being representative of either the pastorate and the church as a whole.
That is using the worst of a huge group as the measure of all in the group.
There are many godly shepherds and millions of lives have been transformed through the Gospel.
The more I study Paul’s vision of the church, the more I love it…
Steve, the bishop certainly knows more about the orphan situation than you or I do.
Listen, folks. Yes, it is true that the US sends a lot of money overseas for this and that reason and it is also true that many Americans are good-hearted people who want to rescue Slavic orphans for altruistic reasons. All of this is true. However, the US does more than give out money and rescue orphans, it is very heavy-handed (to put it mildly) in its foreign policy. And believe it or not, people do resent it when a powerful nation gives them material aid (with strings attached) or takes their children off to be raised in a foreign culture (even if they are doing a lousy job of it themselves). People don’t like to be patronized. Sure, how lovely it would be if every nation in the world that the US gave money to or invaded (for their own good, of course) responded with gratitude but that just isn’t human nature. They feel bullied. No one likes a bully, as we have discussed here many times.
I’ll go a step further, not only is sacramentalism dead…so is non-sacramentalism. All the institutions, movements, and denominations are dead. The only place where life can be found is in a one-on-one relationship with Christ.
“but I do have a problem with using them as being representative of either the pastorate and the church as a whole.”
When the bad guys aren’t roundly repudiate and are tolerated in a Group/Movement/Political Party “affiliation” etc etc, then they are “representative” by definition
Americans…. Not only do we expect to enjoy one of the highest living standards in the world(at the expense of many others), not only do we expect to have the right to invade whoever we want, not only do we feel we can bully other nations into doing what we want but we expect to be universally admired for it.
I don’t usually comment because “what do I know?” But I think I’ll add my two cents worth to these discussions.
First, I don’t think the United States is a nation favored by God. I don’t think any nation is favored by God. The ancient nation of Israel was God’s people and it was favored. But then the new covenant came into being and now all the God fearing and believing Gentiles and Jews are part of his kingdom.
The nations are “Ceasar’s” and we are to give Ceasar his due and God His. Two separate concepts.
Don’t get me wrong. I love America, the home of the free. And I love modern Israel, the only true democracy in the Middle East. I also love Canada, England, Australia, and and few other countries that are friends of the U.S.A.
But God does not have a favored nation. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world.
And that brings me to gay marriage. I support gay marriage as a social structure and legal union. It is about freedom. I don’t agree with a homosexual lifestyle for biblical reasons and also because I find it “icky.”
But we have freedom in this country, freedom of religion and freedom from religion. There are so many social benefits tied to marriage such as spousal benefits, tax breaks, and even the ability to make decisions for a spouse when they are incapacitated. I agree with gay couples that want to marry and want those benefits.
I think that churches have a right to be opposed to a gay lifestyle and oppose gays in their churches, but no church gets to make the laws for others. That is what freedom of and from religion means.
This may be the start of a slippery slope. What’s next? Polygamy? Marrying your horse? Who knows. But the U.S. government isn’t Christian, it is agnostic. All this “God We Trust” is not really part of the constitution. The constitution is about freedom to think any way we damn well please. There are limits. Like the saying goes, the freedom to swing your arms ends at the other guy’s nose.
Christians should be free to oppose gay marriage, but I consider it a civil matter.
Does this mean that God will punish the U.S. for this behavior. No, God doesn’t favor nations and he doesn’t punish them (although he seemed to be on the allies side against Hitler.)
No, God’s kingdom is for the believers. We are free to believe what we interpret to be true, but we are not fee to tell others what to do. That’s my view of gay marriage. OK as a civil matter, but not as a religious matter. Yet we know some Christian churches support gay marriage. That’s OK for them. They have the freedom and the right to believe that, although I think they are wrong.
J.U.
well done…you should post more often!
Yes Xenia, nationalism at the expense of Christ is a horrible thing. Horrible when it takes place here in the USA, and horrible in other nations as well.
So other nations would rather have their children suffer in orphanages, children they have no desire to adopt themselves, than have another country give them a better life.
It is just another form of ungodly nationalism that can not be defended.
God says to care for the orphans.
God says to care for the orphans.<<<
Which is exactly what Bishop Jonah and the monks at his monastery are doing, yet you are critical of him.
Isn’t this exactly what should be happening? Slavic people taking care of their own orphans? Teaching Christian morality so their won’t be a next generation of orphans?
As a product of the Jesus Movement now toiling in obscurity, without much explicitly “religious” activity, I would like to think that at some level I have kept faith with the vision of that movement. My concept of what constitutes genuine forward spiritual movement – “edification” in another lingo – has certainly evolved.
I am, seriously, all for screaming and shouting, or “revival”, but I am also concerned about what genuinely transforms people and moves them in the direction of healthy and full-orbed Christian lives. This is a challenging issue folks!
And of course my primary concern is for my family, extended family, neighbors, co-workers, and Christian leaders in the community: Doing and being whatever I can to be a blessing and a positive enabler for all of those.
If God calls me out of my cave, hopefully by the grace of God I will respond faithfully.
#6…gave me much to think about…the “fringe” start the revivals…so true.
I was around for the Jesus People movement and, if the Lord allows, would love to be around for the next one.
24.
Xenia, that man that sees the US as the “evil empire” was he over here fundraising for his ministry to orphans?
London, the bishop did not say the *he* thought the US was an evil empire, he was saying that this was the view of the typical Ukrainian. And I am not saying that *I* think the US is an evil empire, either.
He did not take up a collection while he was at our parish so I don’t think he was here to raise money. He never mentioned money except when someone asked how his monastery was supported and he said through sales of books and donations.
Paigemom,
I have some very dear friends that attend Solid Rock. Is Jon Courson’s brother still one of the pastors there?
Which is exactly what Bishop Jonah and the monks at his monastery are doing, yet you are critical of him.
———————————————-
Xenia if my words above have stated or even implied a criticism for his work with orphans, then I ask forgiveness. Apparently I was unclear as to where my true criticism lies. As I said, this is a personal touchy subject given our experience with the evils of extreme nationalism at the cost of innocent children.
You’re right. I was not there to hear what he had to say in the context of how his people back home criticize this nation.
BabyD at #5, I think you summed up what has happened in the CC/Vineyard movement pretty well.
Ok, just curious.
I’ve been to Ukraine a couple times and have not had that experience. So far, everyone has been nice, although they do seem to think that Americans are made of money and the Ukrainians at good a “marketing” the plight of their orphans to bring in $.
Steve,
You are way over simplifying the orphan situation in Eastern Europe and Ukraine (there’s no “the” in the country’s name btw).
Many can barely afford to pay for their own children let Alone adopt another child.
Please do not judge the size of their hearts by the size of their pocketbooks.
I have “family” in Ukraine who I love dearly and help financially as I’m able.
They are some of the most wonderful folks I know and they have welcomed me with open arms into their lives even when I’m unemployed and can’t spare a dime.
The only person in Ukraine I’ve heard speaking poorly of Americans was an American missionary trying to be “cool” and bashing his own country.
Steve, all’s well. He is a truly humble, pious man with no trace of self-aggrandizement and I am pretty sure you would have really liked him too!
Folks, please pray for the people of Prescott, AZ. 19 firefighters dead. So much sadness.
London, right, the Bishop did say that the Ukrainians do like the American people, just not America’s foreign policy. Well, me too, for that matter!
There’s a Russian family in our parish that adopted a street kid from Moscow. He was 4 years old and scrounging food and money off the streets to feed him and his drug-addicted mother. He was put in an orphanage and that’s where our friends found him. Today, he’s a beautiful 12-year who sings in the choir and is about to become a concert-level pianist. What I like about his story is that he gets the benefits of American prosperity but gets to keep his Russian heritage. When I see him in the choir I sometimes wonder whatever happened to his poor mother and how happy I hope she would be if she saw how well-cared for her son is today. It’s a happy story for the boy and his new parents but a very sad story for his mother.
But here’s something to think about:
Suppose there arose a nation that was much, much wealthier than the US and had a missionary zeal to bring American kids into their country and into their religion. Suppose this country was, say, Saudi Arabia.
How would we Americans feel if rich Saudi Arabians began adopting all our street kids, kids in foster care, kids in orphanages, kids living in poverty, etc, and took them back to Saudi Arabia to raise them as Muslims? And who could complain because their material condition would be better? Would we like that? I wouldn’t.
If it mean t unwanted children getting a healthy home, I’d be all for it.
Josh, then would you be in favor of a pair of homosexual men adopting children?
Ugh, never mind. That’s way off topic.
Josh has a heart for children, that much is obvious.
“healthy home”
@ 70 – Thanks Xenia.
My missionary friend who live in Ukraine do spend a great deal of time in the orphanages, and also taking care of widows. I send them money, and they take take it directly and pay some elderly lady’s rent.
Again, apologies to you all for my irritable tone today.
I have a friend who keeps asking my opinion on a certain topic. We talk for hours on the phone about this problem. In my mind, it’s not much of a problem but this person is consumed with it. They ask my advice, I give it, they say they “get it,” and will act accordingly, then do the exact opposite. Then comes another round of asking advice, hours on the phone, etc. Yesterday something happened that was the last straw. Of course, it will not be the last straw because I care about this person and will probably engage in another few hundred hours of conversation that will lead nowhere. I tell you what, I wanted to strangle this person yesterday. So I am taking it out on you all today. I’m sorry.
Xenia, a man whose service to the Lord is given to the orphans is certainly a man I would have enjoyed listening to.
London, Agreeing with you. As is often the case, the issue is not the people of a nation but its leaders. Russia had a line of Americans willing, qualified, approved to adopt some of its kids. It wasn’t the Russian people that stopped it – it was a handful of bureaucrats.
And like Xenia, I might be in a more combative mood than I should be – and it has nothing to do with this community. So I’ll throw my apologies out to the board as well.
5. I like this passage, I think of it as Paul commissioning us to be “Pleading Prophets”.
Like pleading a case in court, when we begin to defend the indefensible, we come to problems too great to surmount. We are pleading with listeners to examine Jesus Christ, who in unassailable in character and conduct.
It’s interesting that we’re not making the whole argument against conducts of Christianity. We’re not saying ‘stop giving money to disaster relief’ until you clean up church conduct. We’re not saying ‘shut down those religiously funded hospitals’ until you clean up church conduct.
We’re not saying ‘stop those global adoptions’ until you clean up church conduct.
Why is it that we’re comfortable draining other Christian’s wallets while we cover their mouths?
Christians get a great many things wrong, but they get a great many things right. Especially giving . . . so I wonder if they’re so generous, why aren’t they entitled to more graciousness when they suffer from hoof in mouth disease?
Especially compared to the great benevolence done in the name of godlessness.
It’s a fascinating tie to #2, most of the persecution in Christian on Christian.
There’s a paradigm that I deal with in teens and parents relationships as well as collegians and their parents.
I tell these young people “if you accept your parents affluence, you also accept their influence.”
I got that principle from the Bible. God said that, too. He gives us life and breath and so He gets to tell us how to live.
It’s part of His conduct that we reflect, too. We use our affluence and hope our influence isn’t pure effluence. I think it’s important not to muzzle the oxen while he’s trying to tell you what to do with his share of the grain.
I was saved at the tail end of the Jesus Movement in 1976. End times theology had nothing to do with my conversion although it sure became the focus of evangelism and many Sunday messages.
I was saved at CCCM because I heard the gospel presented clearly for the first time in my life and I saw I was a sinner without hope outside of Christ. I would say that describes scores who were saved before me.
Anyone who was saved to avoid being left behind as BD stated above probably fell by the wayside at one point. That makes me sad because I took a cousin to see “A Thief In The Night” and he prayed to avoid what he saw depicted in the movie. He fell away and to this day I believe isn’t a believer.
I do know those were special days back in the 70’s that won’t be duplicated as I believe if revival comes again it will take a different shape. And I firmly believe because of social media if we live to see another revival there will be scores of believers stating what will be taking place is false for one reason or the other. I’d like to see us simply get along which might constitute some sort of move of God!!
I’m off topic here as far as Michael’s bullet points but I am concerned about what might happen after a verdict is rendered in the George Zimmerman trial. Hopefully I’m wrong.
This
http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=11517
Quoting jamesk’s link:
Critics of the homosexual lifestyle have long claimed that once it became acceptable to identify homosexuality as simply an “alternative lifestyle” or sexual orientation, logically nothing would be off limits. “Gay” advocates have taken offense at such a position insisting this would never happen. However, psychiatrists are now beginning to advocate redefining pedophilia in the same way homosexuality was redefined several years ago.
Great “things I think” installment, and I agree on all points. And that’s all I’m sayin… 🙂
“psychiatrists are now beginning to advocate redefining pedophilia in the same way homosexuality was redefined several years ago.”
Anything’s possible I guess, depending on a drastic shift in Consensus. Remember, at one time in the OT, concubines (sex slaves), slavery and multiple wives was “permitted” so…
The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. This Gospel is entrusted to the church individually and collectively. This gospel when believed and embraced allows one to enter and perceive the Kingdom and become a partaker of the Holy Spirit of promise. Why do I need this kind of revival more than I need to run till the end while helping others do the same.? To me this is the sign of life that manifests daily and faithfully. Rejoice in The Lord and not in revival.
Speaking of SGM…
http://t4g.org/cj-mahaney
“As long as we define the whole of “morality” by sexual behavior the church will continue to be one long exercise in missing the point.”
Problem is (IMO) that the church as a whole seems to be hyper-focusing on homosexuality as a (sexual) sin – while (for the most part) ignoring all the other sexual sin that goes on in church – fornication, adultery, sex before/outside of marriage, etc. Sexual sin is sexual sin is sin.
Whatever moral authority the church thought it held (or did hold) in the sexual morality arena was lost a long time ago.
The church can continue to fight gay marriage (a losing battle, again IMO) – or it can focus on exemplifying Christ by living pure and loving freely. That doesn’t mean we condone sin – but we deal with *all* sin, not just the one that has everyone’s attention. Live our lives as example (which doesn’t mean compromising our beliefs) and see what happens.
We can’t get our own house in order – why do we think people who disagree with us are going to listen to what we have to say?
So called “Christian” marriages are going to H**l because so called “Christian” husbands either don’t give a d**n or haven’t been taught *HOW* to be a Christian husband. But rather than deal with that issue within the body, we’d rather attack other groups for daring to go against God’s Word.
Leader’s lead by example, not by words.
As to Michael’s Point One.
I now think that our biggest national sin has been denying God as the Creator of all things. Maybe because it’s because I am teaching Romans now – but that is quite a list of sins at the end of the chapter, homosexuality being just one that is included – and all of them, per Romans, spring from a denial of God as the Creator and a lack of thankfulness to Him for so being.
All the sins flow from that, and are actually part of the present wrath of God being revealed against ungodly and unrighteous men who suppress the truth of God as Creator.
That’s my take.
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
“After much prayer, reflection and counsel I have decided to withdraw from participation in the 2014 Together for the Gospel conference. My reason for doing so is simple: I love these men and this conference and I desire to do all I possibly can to serve the ongoing fruitfulness of T4G.”
Excuse me while I go sand blast my eyebrows off.
Re: Mahaney. Goliath is down.
Pastor Wright I mean this with the deepest respect and it is just a question what exactly does “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” mean in a specific sense, I have known many people who are gay, other then maybe 1 or 2 people none of them “wanted” to be gay. It was horrible for them, the mocking, the name calling, the taunting, and the shame were quite common. Real men dont do that bla bla. Now as a heterosexual male who lives a celibate lifestyle, at times looked at like I am gay because I have not gotten married I sort of skate on the outside. The brothers sort of look at you at times in my case in a strange way. I cant seem to understand how they are suppressing anything other then their own personalities but that is another post. I had the Romans 1-3 verse pointed out to me when I said I struggled with the ToE, how does one struggle with a theory but that to is another post. It was stated quite clearly the people at biologos were suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. When I inquired as to this huge scientific cabal who produce huge amounts of data, actual verifiable predictions etc have are part of some international conspiracy. I know when I tried to offer my evidence to defend my point of view of a literal reading I was handed my head. Quite sobering and the international conspiracy angle did not play well.
This is not a snark I envy you, Michael and others, I wish, and I try daily to live in your world I really do, it is exhausting. I am sure it is me, because Michael and you as well strike me as such wonderful people but the gnawing voices eat away at me. It just does not seem so cut and dry. Us needing a savior does, no matter how we got here, through natural selection or divine intervention. That I affirm I / we need a savior and need to be restored. I will die with that hope on my lips but the mechanism by which we get here I struggle with. Again no gotcha type rhetoric just an honest question. Dont feel you have to give some long answer just a web link or book referral would be appreciated. I hope this makes some sense. I do hope all of you have a nice day.
brian,
If we came out of the goo by chance – why do we need a savior?
At leadership meeting in Gettysburg, in 1978, CJ Mahaney had me laughing so hard I could barely stay in my chair.
I have heard a lot of preachers. I have to say, CJ was the most hilarious.
I am sorry about the troubles at SGM. But in heaven, I want to listen to CJ preach.
Michael@#6…. I agree, ready for a revival. Several years ago when the Rainbow people were in our state, we drove a missionary in who ran a kitchen at that gathering. We met some good folks from Dread’s church, too. After leaving, the thought hit me that these Rainbow folks are ripe for a revival. It wouldn’t surprise me to hear of a move of the Spirit at their gathering, wherever it is this year.
PPV,
“CJ Mahaney had me laughing so hard I could barely stay in my chair.”
I prefer a preacher who makes me squirm a little in my chair.
But you know, in the mid 80s I went to an Eddie Murphy show and he had me laughing so hard, I could barely stay in my chair.
Also heard him in York, PA talking about the pastor-prophet dynamic. He had a special gift in those days.
In some ways it was the East Coast analogue to what was happening on the other coast at Calvary Chapel etc. There were really multiple ad hoc moves, and little fires springing up all around.
What fun it was.
Makes one wonder what could happen next.
How do people view these United States from abroad?
I have the great opportunity to travel internationally a fair amount and quite frankly they don’t think much about us at all, except for our stuff.
No matter where I go, from Asia, down under, Germany, UK…, I find the same things; McDonalds, 7-11, Starbucks, KFC, Burger King, US TV shows (also Al Jazeera is everywhere), clothing styles, hair styles, iPhones, iPads, cars, hotel chains, and so much more.
The world wants to be like the USA in general and it’s not our religious beliefs they want. The USA is a light, or maybe we are a darkness?
brian, duct tape is a little less painful on the eyebrows than sandblasting. Might not be as effective though.
Brian, I don’t normally do this, but without writing a book, to answer your question, I’ll point you to the message from two days ago. If you want to forward to about the 11:00 minute mark to get to the suppressing truth. And the science lesson starts around 19:00.
http://www.calvaryle.org/Romans%201_16-32.mp3
Josh, did I read your 71 correctly as saying you think Muslim homes are healthy for children to be adopted into but ones with homosexuals as partners are not?
MLK um ok
Pastor Steve thanks for the link I agree these conversations can deteriorate into tit for tat arguments. So I am listening to it and will just study it on my own. I appreciate it, by the way it was a good sermon.
@98 – J2 – not really. There was a long string of hypotheticals there that I got caught up in. I was basically answering the question of foreign people adopting American orphans. I do not like the idea of gay couples adopting.
Most of us who came to Christ in the Jesus People movement had an interesting time interacting with out natural families.
We started out be terrorizing all the family reunions (wasn’t that fun?).
Over time we realized that we were not the first Christians in the last 1800 years – there were actually some Christians in our extended family and ancestry.
Eventually we found out almost all our church relationships faded, but we were still tied in to our natural families. So we realized we probably needed to have good relationships with them for the long haul.
Then we gave up on converting them to Christ overnight. Even decided some of them actually were, in ways we were coming to accept as valid, believers in Christ.
An awesome run we have had. Thanks.
You’ll have to speak for yourself PP Vet. My experience may vary.
PP Vet, I can relate to a lot of that!