Things I Think

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95 Responses

  1. filbertz says:

    regarding your first ‘thought,’ those who make that leap of (il)logic are those so Ameri-centric as to also conclude the solar system rotates around Washington D.C. That lack of perspective is also part of the response to your sixth ‘thought’ as well.

  2. Paige says:

    I heard a radio program with Anne Graham Lotz last week, talking about her latest book “Wounded By God’s People”….. definitely ordering it!

    http://www.annegrahamlotz.com/store/wounded-gods-people/

    Cats make great watch ‘dogs’. When I lived in Ashland, the neighborhood racoons came in my cat door nightly and ate all the crunchies, leaving a tell tale mudhole in the water bowl. Had to put an end to that. They were not happy…the racoons, that is. We locked down the house at night, cats all in, then and now. Racoons are cute but nasty.

    Love you,my friend…hope you can find some ways to keep yourself healthy this winter.

  3. Michael says:

    fil,

    One of the ODM’s “graded” the speakers at Chuck Smith’s memorial.
    The determination between “man of God” and “heretic” was based on how many times each speaker referenced the Rapture.
    Congratulations on the “first”… 🙂

  4. Michael says:

    Thank you, Paige…
    I’ve got my flu shot and I’m eating vitamins…we’ll get though this. 🙂

  5. Paige says:

    Interesting, your words about 1 & 2 Corinthians and Galatians. I read those books last night in bed…. plus some of Acts (looking up refs to out pourings of the Holy Spirit)…. indeed, in those days, churches were ‘rgoverned by gifts”….. a re-read last night left me again scratching my head and asking God how we got to the church culture that we now have.
    I read a post from a link you posted last week…. can’t remember who/what/where, of an atheist asking a believer “Did Jesus tell you to do this?” as they watched a TV church service (or something like that). True dat….. So far from the Book of Acts….

  6. Xenia says:

    Green smoothies! The cure for all that ails you!

  7. Michael says:

    Paige,

    It’s an interesting study.
    I always wondered why those letters were not sent to the “senior pastor” to address the problems.
    Paul expected the entire church to be engaged in governance…and the whole church was supposed to benefit from all the gifts present in the assembly.
    The results were often chaotic…so we adopted bishops and a hierarchal system to deal with that.
    I think the result was that we cut off the work of the Holy Spirit in many ways…

  8. Paige says:

    For all the Bible ‘studies” that we’ve all attended all these years, for all the churches that claim to be based on ‘the New Testament”…..WHY does it look like it does? (full of sinners, of course)….. I was reading last night about the Holy Spirit because I’d been to a Sunday school class that insisted that there is a “one time only’ Holy Spirit ‘bestowal’ for believers… Had to look up all those verses in Acts about ‘believers’ and ‘disciples’ who had “not heard there was a Holy Spirit” and an outpouring like ‘at the beginning’ (Pentecost)..

    I guess that God is so vast, the scriptures are so vast and our minds are so small and limited that we simply cannot begin to grasp the totality of what He would have us know….. I was just so amazed that a scholarly & schooled pastor held to that belief…. sigh.

    Of course, my responsibility is to walk in what I know and attempt to keep learning what God would have me know and live out.

  9. I too was moved by the praise and thanks poured on Chuck. No way he grew the organization he had without some real qualities. So like us he was a mix. Interestingly I still remember the first time I heard about Chuck from a friend who went to a conference led by him. I was moved by the hope that churches could be casual, relational, charismatic, but normal and play relevant music. Seemed an impossible dream to a Baptist who was still dealing with arguments over, applause in church, canned music, hymnals being ignored, wearing an open collared shirt, hair too this or that, beards; and really important things. Drums in church were a sign of Satan’s invasion.

    I loved the testimony of the guy who got ordained without knowing it and especially loved listening to Chuck’s daughter reflect on dad.

    Now the orphaned sons will parse things up. But maybe they will just get freer like Chuck did when he pursued his own dreams. Yes I know he moved away from freedom as he aged.

    He’s gone now and we are here. So, man a post.

    Watchman Dread

  10. Xenia says:

    I always wondered why those letters were not sent to the “senior pastor” to address the problems.<<<

    Yet the letters in Revelation were sent to individuals (angels) who many believe were the "senior pastors" of those churches.

  11. Jim says:

    1. Agreed. What’s a rapture? : )
    2. Agreed, although I think the argument for paid elders is disputable. No offense to paid elders, as the way we do church is what it is.
    3. Well said!
    4. Agreed.
    5. I recommend Florida and a dog.
    6. Good lesson in the evils of greed and bigotry.
    7. Single payer is the goal. Hillary 2016!
    8. You only have to do it once. Word gets around.
    9. See 5 above.
    10. It’s fueled by feelings. Fear, compassion, hatred, etc…

  12. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    Pauls letters were written somewhere in the 50’s…the Revelation in the 90’s.
    I think we see that progression happening…though if you read the second century fathers, there is still no central leader addressed in the local churches by the bishops.

  13. Papias says:

    “The complete financial and moral collapse of America will not automatically trigger the Rapture.” You are right – but it may be the impetus for America’s non-mention/involvment in end times eschatology. If our economy is in shambles why would we do anything to stop the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel?

    2. Surprised you quoted Bart Ehrmann.

    3. “All I ask is that grace flow both ways..” I would concur with the hope, but not expect grace. Some of the rhetoric and comments make it seem like Chuck will soon be officially canon-ized. I will say this: no one in CC should criticize a Roman Catholic who reverances the Pope.

    5. Raccoons are cute, but not that cute. “As fast as dogs, and can climb like cats.”

    6. I tired to explain something else to my kids the other day… and it didn’t turn out so well. Forgot what it was about, just that trying to be delicate sometimes doesn’t work. Sometimes we gotta just tell the story warts and all.

    7. Being in IT project mgt as a profession, I can tell you that unless you test an application in multiple environments prior to going to production, you are going to have issues.

    9. Been playing Christmas music for a month. Mostly instrumentals(Gary Hoey, Ottmar Liebert, George Winston). Christmas carols will have to wait a bit.

    10. This goes for all. Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs had a post on FB last week. Someone asked him “how could you associtae with Glenn Beck – he’s a so and so…”. Mike took the time to answer and it was a good reminder to be civil.

  14. Michael says:

    Jim,

    Well done!
    As to #10…if we can corral the feelings and talk as brothers and sisters we can get beyond this mess.

  15. Xenia says:

    #12

    if you read the second century fathers, there is still no central leader addressed in the local churches by the bishops.<<<

    Not exactly, but I am leaving for the day and don't have time to expound.

  16. EricL says:

    I think you hit a great truth on point #2 and I wouldn’t be too surprised if the next movement of God includes an emphasis on a plurality of elders, leading done by community, and a rejection of many of the “innovations” of the Baby Boomer generation.

    It was the BB generation that brought us the idea of church as a business (pastor’s study became the pastor’s office, the church’s treasurer became the church CFO, and so on). It was the BB generation that also gave us church as an event instead of a community.

    I just hope when that fresh new movement arrives, that my heart is tender enough to see what is happening and rejoice in it. I’m not quite old enough to be a Baby Boomer, but I spent decades in churches controlled by that generation and so I’ve become accustomed to doing “church” that way, where the CEO pastor calls all the shots.

  17. Michael says:

    BD,

    Here’s the mistake I think is being made.
    Trey has a penchant for getting into trouble.
    When he blows it, he almost always asks me if I’ve ever done likewise.
    He’s too young to hear the real dirt…but I always speak to him about the mistakes I’ve made and how I tried to correct them.
    Our failures are worth as much to the next generation as our successes.

  18. Michael says:

    Papias,

    Ehrmann is a good scholar…I simply don’t agree with many of his conclusions.

  19. Michael says:

    EricL,

    My gut instinct is that doing church CEO style is not doing church at all.
    I’m fortunate to have a small enough group to implement my gut. 🙂

  20. erunner says:

    Xenia @ 6, green smoothies…. They’ve been a godsend for me. Can’t refrain from responding to a green smoothie reference! 🙂

  21. Your #8 reminds me of something that happened while I was externing at church in the summer.

    A young gal walked in the office, obviously distraught, and told us that she found out that her fiance had all kinds of porn on his computer, and that he had s_x with another girl. All this had been taking place during the months that they had been attending pre-marital counseling with one of our pastors. She was going to try to call him and see if he could come in to the office.

    The idea I proposed was to get him into one of the pastors’ offices, then have another one of our externs, who’s about 6’5″ and 300 lbs., guard the door while a couple of us other guys did some “wall-to-wall counseling.” Needless to say, the pastoral staff didn’t go with my idea.

  22. Ehrmann is a scholar and an unbeliever.

  23. Papias says:

    Michael,
    Agreed about Ehrman. Its just that the “Guilty by Association” crowd won’t see the distinction.

    “if you read the second century fathers, there is still no central leader addressed in the local churches by the bishops.<<<

    Not exactly, but I am leaving for the day and don't have time to expound"

    I would believe that Michael is speaking the truth here – there is no one central leader thoughout the Church as a whole. There are bishops in charge of geographical areas, but generally they stick to their rics. As far as I know, the Quartodeciman controversy was the first time that a (Roman) bishop exercised authority outside his jurisdiction.

  24. London says:

    Papi’s #7

    Yep!!

    I say as I sit here mind numbingly entering data so we can begin testing the thing I’m working on now….

  25. I think we spoke about this once before – I think there was a leader in each church. I don’t think the Fed Ex guy just handed the letter to anyone – but was told by Paul “Give this to Pastor Ralph.” The letters were to the church as a whole, but delivered to Pastor Ralph to read to the group … and then he (Pastor Ralph) was in charge of the implementation.

  26. Michael says:

    MLD,

    Maybe…but there is nothing in the historical record that supports your theory.

  27. Steve Wright says:

    I don’t want to contribute to a partisan debate about the general merits of ACA. So I offer this for comment in the spirit of bipartisanship and in the context that Michael brought up the ACA as to the computer.

    The big story, which is just now starting to be written, is the possibility of unimaginable damage to America by hacking this website – imagining the chaos of millions of cases of identity theft.

    BOTH the Democrat and Republican chairpersons of Intelligence Committee (Senate – Feinstein, House- Rogers) after private briefings with the administration advised they need to take down the site until it is fixed for the security of the American people.

    This news came out yesterday. Feinstein on Face The Nation said ““I felt and I said this directly to the president’s chief of staff, that they ought to take down the website until it was right. They believe that they need to keep it running and that they can sort out the difficulties.” (I won’t quote you the Republican nor provide a link – anyone can look it up)

    At some point our leaders have gone beyond incompetence to become the Mayor of Amity Island who continues to argue the beaches need to stay open for the economic good of the people – even as they continue to be eaten by the shark.

    When the Democrat Senator that heads the Intelligence Committee, after receiving a private briefing none of us know the details about, tells the President he needs to shut down the website and he refuses….then we have moved passed simple political shenanigans to something far worse.

  28. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I got real wary when they asked Verizon to come in and help them out.
    I worked for Verizon…and the last thing I’d enlist them for is a working website.

  29. Michael,
    “Maybe…but there is nothing in the historical record that supports your theory.”

    Are you saying there is no evidence for a real Pastor Ralph or are you saying that Jesus did not set leaders for the church? I see many times where Jesus gives instructions to leaders and not the masses and if I remember correctly Paul in some of his letters mentions that so and so has been dispatched to help a leader in a church.

    Headless churches, hmmm

  30. Jim says:

    Maybe Michelle is college buddies with someone at Verizon too.

  31. Ricky Bobby says:

    Like it or not, Erhman is a solid scholar and points out some legitimate issues with the texts.

  32. Erhman is a fantastic scholar. His popular skeptic books are not scholarly.

  33. Josh,
    Fantastic he is NOT scholarly he is indeed. What other books does he have than his large stack of hardback unbelief books and how would his popular books be unscholarly other than by definition.

  34. Not sure what you are asking there Dread.

    Ehrman has made scholarly contributions to the field of textual criticism. His books written for the popular audience (Misquoting Jesus was one, there were a couple others) were not written with anywhere near the precision and academic clarity that his text books are. In order to be salacious and sale books, he sacrificed his integrity as a scholar. He has the right to have opinions and beliefs just like everyone else, but his contributions in the area of textual criticism do not give his opinions more weight in other areas.

  35. Xenia says:

    When you read the earliest church fathers- St. Ignatius of Antioch, especially- you notice that unlike today when we have bishops overseeing a large diocese from a major city, bishops in the earliest churches oversaw their own parishes. In other words, it appears that each town (even little towns, as you notice when you read the history of that time) had its own bishop. The idea of a bishop overseeing many churches in his region is a more recent development. So sum it up, in the early church, the bishop *was* the senior pastor.

  36. Xenia says:

    If we are going to appeal to the early church fathers, the pattern is clearly a hierarchical Bishop-Priest-Deacon.

  37. Xenia says:

    And it all centered around this: without a properly ordained bishop (or his delegate) there is no Eucharist and no Church. That is what the ECFs write about.

  38. Xenia says:

    As for listing 1st and 2nd bishops by name:

    First Century Bishops:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:1st-century_bishops

    Second Century Bishops:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:2nd-century_bishops

    So history does bear out the fact that early church leaders were known by name.

  39. Steve Wright says:

    Xenia, I am in agreement with you. Bishop as used in the NT was over a local church, not over a collection of churches.

    Wondering, when you read someone like Ignatius, you are reading an English translation of what was originally the Greek, right?

    I wonder if he was using the same Greek word we find translated “bishop” in our English (the overseer). Which would add even more support to the idea.

    Do you have a source for Ignatius in his original language?

  40. Steve Wright says:

    As far as Ehrman and popular consumption – I have noticed that The Teaching Company and their Great Courses offerings use Ehrman for pretty much all things New Testament, Jesus, Apostolic, and Early Church History related.

    He has a LOT of offerings – and they are using him as the go-to guy.

    I like The Teaching Company and have benefited from many of their courses – but it is unfortunate they use him pretty exclusively for so much of what is no doubt popular subjects. At the same time, there probably is a reason they use him too, as a safe choice given their target audience

  41. Steve,
    I think that http://www.ccel.org has most of those documents in greek.

  42. Xenia says:

    Wondering, when you read someone like Ignatius, you are reading an English translation of what was originally the Greek, right?<<<

    Most certainly! I don't know any Greek except "baklava" and "loukoumades."

  43. Xenia says:

    The Teaching Company does have one series by Prof. Luke Timothy Johnson, who seems fairly (small “o”) orthodox but unfortunately he is also very boring to listen to.

  44. Steve Wright says:

    Xenia, can you point us to specific writings by Ignatius where he speaks on the topic?

    (Thanks Derek)

  45. Xenia says:

    The above mentioned series is “The History of Christianity: From the Disciples to the Dawn of the Reformation.”

  46. Xenia says:

    If anyone would like to borrow it, send me an email:

    diane.xenia AT gmail DOT com

  47. Xenia says:

    Steve, all of his letter speak to this topic with the exception of his letter to the Romans, where he’s mostly pleading with them not to interfere with his upcoming martyrdom because he can’t wait to see the Lord!

  48. Xenia says:

    I think if you go to his online letters you can do a search for the word “bishop” and you will find examples. Also “Eucharist.”

  49. Xenia says:

    I wrote a paper on this topic last year. Let’s see if I can find it. I had a major computer crash recently and probably lost it…

  50. Xenia says:

    I found a rough draft of the paper. Here are some of the references I used;, they might not all pertain exactly to this thread but here they are:

    (These are letters from Ignatius)

    Polycarp 6:1; 8:1,2

    Smyrna 8:1, 3

    Romans (Ignatius’ letter to the Romans, not the NT Romans) 2:2; 7:3

    Magnesians: 3:1, 2; 6:1

    ——

    And a verse from the Didache, Didache 9:10

  51. Xenia says:

    So, it is plain that there is plenty of historical evidence, from the NT and from the ECFs that each church had a leader and they were certainly known by name. Many of their names were recorded and we still know their names 1900 years later.

  52. Michael says:

    I will have to pull together some sources of my own…I would start start with 1 Clement.
    Writing in the late nineties to early 100’s

    “The Church of God which sojourneth in Rome to the Church of God which
    sojourneth in Corinth, to them which are called and sanctified by the
    will of God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Grace to you and peace
    from Almighty God through Jesus Christ be multiplied.

    1Clem 1:1
    By reason of the sudden and repeated calamities and reverses which
    are befalling us, brethren, we consider that we have been somewhat
    tardy in giving heed to the matters of dispute that have arisen among
    you, dearly beloved, and to the detestable and unholy sedition, so
    alien and strange to the elect of God, which a few headstrong and
    self-willed persons have kindled to such a pitch of madness that your
    name, once revered and renowned and lovely in the sight of all men,
    hath been greatly reviled.”

  53. Michael says:

    Most biblical scholars believe the early church was governed by a plurality of elders.
    I’ll document that as well as time allows…

  54. Xenia says:

    You know, Michael, that when our bishop who is in San Francisco writes to our parish he does not address it to Father G, he addresses it to the parish as a whole. Yet Fr. G. is most definitely the leader of our parish.

  55. Xenia says:

    I know this because sometimes he directs that the letter be read to the entire congregation.
    I am sure he also writes private letters to Fr. G that are addressed to him specifically.

  56. Xenia says:

    Ignatius did write a letter specially to St. Polycarp, Bishop (“senior pastor”) of Smyrna.

  57. Xenia says:

    I must confess, Michael, that I am not too impressed with “most biblical scholars.”

  58. Xenia says:

    Ok, too many black and white rabbits in a row tonight.

    Read Ignatius! He’s great! Very Orthodox!

  59. Michael says:

    These are arguments from silence.
    Paul was never shy about naming names…I would find it more than odd that he would never reveal the name of the “senior pastor” of any church he ever wrote.

  60. Michael says:

    I am much more comfortable with scholars and historians that aren’t also defending a particular ecclesiastical tradition.

  61. Xenia says:

    Argument from silence? I provided a link to a longish list of 1st century bishops.

  62. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I will look those up…I think both Polycarp and Ignatius wrote letters instructing other congregations.

  63. Michael says:

    I have all of Ehrmanns Teaching Company lectures.
    There is some very good content in them.
    L.T. Johnson is the most boring human ever recorded…I returned his works.

  64. Steve Wright says:

    Well, I went through three of Ignatius’ letters (to Polycarp, the Ephesians and the Magnesians) – and he consistently uses episkopos to speak of the singular leader of the church. That’s the word translated “bishop” meaning overseer.

    I found this to the Magnesians relevant to the discussion. (I omitted chapter breaks)
    ————————————————
    Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed through the grace of God the Father in Christ Jesus our Savior, in whom I salute the church which is in Magnesia on the Maeander, and I wish her abundant greeting in God the Father and in Jesus Christ.

    When I learned the exceeding good order of your love in the ways of God, I was gladdened and I determined to address you in the faith of Jesus Christ.
    For being counted worthy to bear a most godly name, in these bonds, which I carry about, I sing the praise of the churches; and I pray that there may be in them union of the flesh and of the spirit which are Jesus Christ’s, our never-failing life–and union of faith and of love which is preferred before all things, and–what is more than all–an union with Jesus and with the Father, in whom if we endure patiently all the despite of the prince of this world and escape therefrom, we shall attain unto God.

    Forasmuch then as I was permitted to see you in the person of Damas your godly bishop and your worthy presbyters Bassus and Apollonius and my fellow-servant the deacon Zotion, of whom I would fain have joy, for that he is subject to the bishop as unto the grace of God and to the presbytery as unto the law of Jesus Christ:–
    ——————————————————

    He first greets the entire church, then references a singular overseer, multiple elders, and a deacon (in that order)

    I’m not looking to prove a point – but maybe we can all share and learn from each other on this one. Michael does pose a good question.

  65. Steve Wright says:

    (BTW – by “went through” I mean I looked up in English and then hunted the word down in the Greek. I certainly did not translate three entire epistles in a few minutes… 🙂 )

  66. Steve Wright says:

    Same with his letters to the Trallians, to the church in Philadelphia and Smyrna. Definitely one singular individual is the bishop of each church.

  67. Steve Wright says:

    Just read Clement’s letter to Corinth, which, like Paul, also is quite corrective. While he does mention in more of a general manner the office of bishop, he only joins deacons with it – and seems to use it in one place as synonymous with elder. I don’t see a direct connection to a singular bishop in Corinth like in Ignatius’ writings.

    However, Clement on at least four occasions speaks of submission to the elders.

    I believe this letter was written around 98 AD, and I believe history records Corinth definitely had a singular bishop, Primus, around 150 AD.

    It’s a long letter – the relevant chapters are 42,44,47,54,55,57

  68. David says:

    Your sadly very right especially on #10
    We’ve made a religious republican rift that’s much stronger then any rep/demo rift because it goes into God issues. How will the church reach any young people who have studied science if were claiming they must denounce the general idea of a Big Bang; or agree the world is only 5000 years old or that creation must be literal days; These are areas where the bible is silent or not definitive; yet we’ve made the details some of the biggest issues in Churchdom while the real issues of Christ and his life changing gospel come in second place too often.

  69. Alan Hawkins says:

    What similar sources are there to The Teaching Company?

  70. David,
    Your 8:21pm post is sadly so very true.

  71. Michael says:

    Dread,

    I get those lectures through Audible.
    The best church history lectures are free on iTunes by Frank James when he was at RTS.

  72. Steve Wright says:

    http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/04/21309679-senate-advances-gay-rights-legislation-bills-future-dim-in-house?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=2
    ——————————————————–
    By carving out an exception for religious institutions and schools, the feds are saying that religious convictions must be confined to such places, and can’t travel with you into the marketplace. Sort of blows the whole “vocation” theory to hell – Apparently God’s calling on your life can only relate to serving at a church or Christian school.

    Now, I can already hear the argument. “What sort of Christian would not hire someone, or would fire them, just because they were homosexual, transgender, or bisexual.” Of course, the answer is obvious. A business owner is going to want the best people for the job and could care less (in almost all cases) about the private life behavior off the clock.

    BUT…in asking the question there is a lack of realization that what this opens the door to is an actual agenda to eliminate Christian business owners from our country. Just as we have already seen with the gay wedding lawsuit related issues. Rather than buy your wedding cake or get your photos from someone in the community who wants your business, they sue the Christians out of business instead.

    Any homosexual or transgender person off the street with an agenda and a pro-bono ACLU attorney can now claim a “discrimination” suit and force the company to spend money it likely does not have to defend itself.

    This was yet another issue I dealt with often in my insurance career – but never for this newly protected “class” of folks.

    Fortunately, as the article states, the future of the bill looks dim in the House. And there is one, and only one reason, because the Democrats do not control the House. Otherwise, just like in California, this would be federal law in all 50 states.

  73. Musings…

    God’s calling on our lives is to live in such a way that we glorify Jesus.

    What this opens the door to is an actual agenda to eliminate :: discriminatory :: business owners from our country.

    How about there just be “owners of businesses” who are excellent at what they do, leading by quality and customer service and excellence instead of branding themselves by their religion?

    How about including NOT discriminating against persons just because of what they choose to do behind closed doors with their significant other, or if a person is transvestite or transgender?

    How about there be individual business owners and their staff who are so known by their unconditional love that they win and maintain a customer base by ATTRACTION instead of shunning classes of people and feeling holy about it?

  74. brian says:

    Offered for what its worth.

    Dear Father I have been so far away, I find myself so angry in a strange land living in the sty of my own making. It has been a long time since we have talked, or shall I say since I listened. The grief is so overwhelming at times, the garden is so beautiful but I cant see it. But you understand, you walked in such a garden. I have broken my vows to you so many times, yet you remain steadfast in your love for me. I think that makes me angry at times dear Lord. We often respond to true love with anger because it hurts so much. You know the end from the beginning and I cant even figure out this moment. You wait by the road longing for me to come home, I long to again each day.

    You have given me a chance to see the strength and grace of the Holy Spirit working in the hearts and lives of the people you have blessed me to work with. It has been the highest point of my life to paint just a little of the tapestry that is their lives with You guiding my reluctant and often rebellious hand. Im sorry is not enough, but I have nothing to give but those words. I have never had anything to give you, apart from Your grace that carries every single breath I take. Amen.

  75. Steve Wright says:

    So a business owner one day has four female employees come up to him to announce in unison they feel they are forced to work in a hostile work environment – because the male employee named Mark, (who insists he be called Mary because he wears a dress and had an operation and “self-identifies” as Mary) is staring at them in the bathroom, and has said a couple inappropriate things to them.

    1. Tell the four employees they are bigots and if they don’t like it, there is the door. (I’m guessing that is G’s option) Then wait for the lawsuit from the employees, while you lose all the production the four of them provided for your company all these years..

    2. Say you “feel their pain” and do nothing. Then wait for the lawsuit.

    3. Go tell Mark/Mary you have received some complaints about his/her behavior. Watch Mark/Mary storm out the door claiming there is nothing to the complaints and they are all just bigots and it is 100% because he/she is transgender…and wait for the lawsuit.

    4. Go to the expense of providing a third bathroom just for Mary/Mark, who then takes offense and quits. Then wait for the lawsuit.

    Workplace harassment is a very real problem in society – and as I said above, I sold insurance that helped protect business employers from such claims, as well as claims for various hiring or firing complaints. If in my little example, Mark is simply Mark, there are procedures a company will follow to eventually rid themselves of Mark (if he does not change his behavior) so that you do not lose your female employees AND you are less likely to get sued (and far more likely to prevail if the guy tried)

    I saw more fraudulent claims than legitimate ones in over a 20 year career. Easily.

    If anyone thinks this sort of legislation does not open the door for tons of fraud, especially targeted in the way those Christian cake bakers were targeted by a small, yet very militant segment of our society, think again.

  76. Option
    Have the employees talk it out, tell each other how they feel, seek a solution and fill the next Chic-Fil-A order of wholesome foodie goodness

  77. “Christian cake bakers”
    Again, the issue is leading with the wrong branding.

    A cake baker can and must be excellent at preheating an oven, not stoking an argument.

    Marginalizing ones customer by belittling them and refusing to do business with them is the icing on the cake

    This just frosts me

    I’m s(topping)

  78. There will be so few but quite sensational instances of leering in the restrooms.

    What’s the world coming to?

    Next thing ya know Kanye will be sporting The Confederate flag as an attempt to rebrand it as “his flag” and force those who sport it as being supporters of Kanye…

    …it could happen

  79. Seriously, I work at an organization that is majority women, lesbian and a few of us guys.

    If anyone were to lurk or loom in the loo there would be such a whoopin, not to mention a cryptic email sent out after the looker was escorted off the premises. Our HR department would act so swiftly with plenty of supporting reasons for the person having left to pursue more family time and no one would skip a beat

    HR in any savvy org will already have a case built against such a person who is creeping others out and s*xual safety and bullying in the workforce are acute issues that all the fear mongering in the world won’t beat the brutal reality of co-workers who can document someone being a jerk and disrupting the work environment.

  80. The greatest majority of LGBT people just want to live and let live, be treated as equals and be cleft alone to buy, trade and interact as peers in general society.

    Few will want to make a show of it.

  81. ( |o ====::: says:

    “Cleft” should read “left”, but my iPad has been hijacked by autocorrect

  82. “1. Tell the four employees they are bigots and if they don’t like it, there is the door. (I’m guessing that is G’s option) Then wait for the lawsuit from the employees, while you lose all the production the four of them provided for your company all these years..”

    Guessed wrong, my option is coexist or all sit down and figure out a way to work together.

  83. Alan Hawkins says:

    G-man,

    Nevermind….

  84. Well there is something about just going about and doing your business. Right now as I type this, I am working on 2 mtg loans. I for a lesbo married couple who are divorcing that I need to get all the deeds corrected removing one of them – and right behind it another lesbo couple who just formed a domestic partnership and one wants the other now on her home loan and title.

    Hey, I will take the green from anyone in the course of my business.

    Do you think Paul chased anyone away and in the Soup Nazi’s voice said “NO tent for you today!!”

  85. PP Vet says:

    Amen, MLD.

    In my work, almost everyday I have to deal with Presbyterians, for example.

  86. Steve Wright says:

    The greatest majority of LGBT people just want to live and let live
    ————————————————-
    That’s why I specifically wrote “small, but very militant segment of our society” To deny such a segment exists is to put one’s head in the sand. Ask the cake bakers.

    The larger point ignored is that the Senate carved out an exception for churches and Christian schools. Why should they get exceptions? On what grounds could they possibly get an exception if we are creating a whole new protected class. They aren’t excluded from discrimination laws based on race, sex, or age.

    MLD – When I first became an insurance agent in Glendale, we bought a retiring Mom/Pop agency – rather small with basic auto/home sorts of policies. No complicated business accounts and those clients basically became mine.

    They were located right on Sunset Blvd. in the heart of Hollywood. I too had many homosexual clients and always gave them the same degree of service and professionalism as any.

    As usual, the unintended consequences of federal legislation to the business owner, like with the ACA discussion, is lost on some.

  87. Jim says:

    Although “lesbo” is a bigoted, grumpy old man term probably used to get a rise out of someone, MLD is 100% correct. I seriously doubt that Paul only sold to Christians.

    Steve is also correct about unintended consequences. I’m sure the Fair Housing Act was passed with good intentions, but it’s provisions are now totally out of control. I live in the condo state, with over 20,000 condo communities, and many have a no pet policy. The communities are owned by the unit owners, and if someone is allergic to dogs, doesn’t want to step in crap, or just doesn’t like animals, they can make an adult decision to move into such a community. Adults like myself who will always own a large dog had to find a community that allowed them. No problem for the adults among us.

    Now under the FHA, you can move into a no animal community and bring in a pet monkey, pig, python, or whatever as an emotional support animal. I’m not making this up.

    Once again, the fedgov just wants to “help”, and creates a crap-storm.

    A free market really works, as smart entrepreneurs are always looking for holes in the market to fill.

  88. Jim says:

    I’m just mad because the fedgov killed my gay wedding cake/exotic animal condo business plans. 🙂

  89. G,
    It seems to me that John Holland is doing the very thing he is criticizing – but he probably can’t help himself.

  90. ( |o )====::: says:

    He’s doing it as gracefully as possible. Calling out crazy is something that must be done. All things are not equal. Graham is being wreckless in ramping up the end times judgment rhetoric while Frank is trying to blow up the myths he started.

  91. Ricky Bobby says:

    “7. Call me crazy, but the ACA process is such a disaster that I can’t help but wonder if it was done on purpose…website and database creation isn’t exactly a new science”

    I really think our Govt. can be that incompetent. I think it’s much more probable that it is gross incompetence and typical bureaucratic flustercluck than it is a carefully orchestratd conspiracy toward single payer.

    Doubtful the Dems pick up a majority in the House after this flustercluck…so doubtful single payer gets rammed through.

  92. Bob Sweat says:

    Thought I would share our Obama Care experience. I’m on Medicare, but my wife is not. She is the preschool director at the school where I serve as principal. The school has a group policy with Kaiser. It was costing over $1000 per month for my wife to be insured. To save school some money, we decided to take out an individual policy with Kaiser that cost $550 per month. The policy had a $4500 max on out of pocket, and we have been satisfied, and the school was saving over $400 per month! Well, she received a letter from Kaiser stating that as of January 1, her policy would be terminated because it did not meet the Obama Care requirements. Kaiser explained that for $780 per month she could remain covered. This plan has a $6500 per year max! Go figure!!!

  93. Ricky Bobby says:

    “8. It doesn’t fit in with our delicate culture anymore, but when I was a kid we had a very effective way of dealing with bullies in school. We grew up and punched them out. It was primitive, but effective “sensitivity training”.”

    Yup. A guy bullied me in Jr. High. I was a year behind my grade and a late bloomer. He was a year older, same grade, and an early bloomer. He was much taller, much bigger and picked on me quite a bit during those years. I never forgot it.

    My senior year of high school, I was pretty much a man at 17. 5’11” and 175lbs. of muscle and anger (from the abuse at home). He was still bigger, 6’1″ and 200+lbs. He was picking on a friend of mine at a party one night (my friend brought this up on FB a week or two ago and recounted the story). I heard my friend screaming my name for help. I remembered that this bully had almost gotten into a fight with my younger brother a week or two prior…and I remembered what this bully had done to me in years past…and now he was picking on one of my best friends.

    I had some alcohol in me (and I was like an Injun in those days, if I drank there was going to be a fight)…I squared off with this guy and told him if he was looking for a fight, he found one. He tried to talk his way out of it, said he’d rather have a shot contest inside. I said, “here’s my shot” and hit him with a right hook and knocked him into the garage door, then took him to the ground and kicked his butt. No more bullying from that bully, not toward me, my bro or my buddy.

    I was bullied by my step-dad and watched him bully so many others. I took on that bully, too.

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