CC Ft. Lauderdale Financials: Celebrity Preacher Wanted
You can read the audited financial statement of Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale by clicking here.
It’s a fascinating look inside of the financial life of a mega church.
The thing that stands out to me as a former banker is a short term loan held by Bank of America for $35,000,000.
It calls for balloon payments of over $3,000,000 for this year, 2015 and 2016, a $2,000,000 payment in 2017, and a whopping $23,000,000 balloon in 2018.
The church had about $9,000,000 in cash on hand as of last June.
That will start disappearing immediately.
Now, that loan was undoubtedly given based on the earning power of Bob Coy.
It is also possible, depending on how the loan was written, that it could be called immediately now that he’s gone.
Bank of America could choose to attach some of the $90,000,0000 in equity the church possesses on the property.
Churches of that size are dependent on the power of personality…and without that personality, the giving and attendance drop precipitously.
I think the Bible calls that idolatry…
I digress.
CCFTL is in need of a savior…will one appear?
LOL! Great minds think alike. I did a similar, but snarkier, article on the CC Abuse blog today.
Michael, the other issue is that a church can’t serve God and its banker. With that kind of debt, it’s pretty clear who this church will be serving for the foreseeable future.
Mine was first LOL.
Mark Driscoll!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂
I beat you by 3 minutes.
Pretty eery, LOL. Must be the SPIRIT!!!!! 😉
Now THAT is below the belt.
I’ll have you know Ft. Lauterdale is a VERY bless’, oops, I mean rich place.
You don’t expect CC to do ministry next to the dirty poor people do you?!
Come on!
Also,
IF anyone is going to bring up the hungry children and single parents without needs being met to try and guilt us, we’ll just insinuate a reason why they deserve it!
And I’ll have no know $30M isn’t what it used to be!
Sorry, meant:
And I’ll have you know $30M isn’t what it used to be!
Churches are so different. Last year my parish’s hot water heater sprang a leak and we passed the plate to pay for a new one and 2 parishioners volunteered to install it.
I swear, it doesn’t surprise me with all the former SoCal CC peeps who have transplanted there, poor FL folks learning shallow Christianity.
Xenia,
Love the story, most of my “church” experience has been SOLELY volunteer effort – MUCH easier to see love in action in IMO.
Wouldn’t trade it for all the “charisma” in the world.
Weird, maybe there is a holy spirit or something.
My spidey senses have been going off big time…only to find out details after-the-fact that make it very possible my hunches could come true.
This is one of the reasons why there is so much staff turn over after these scandals. Imagine being an administrator in this mess. The goose that lays the golden egg is gone and you have to wake up every day thinking about $$$. It’s hard to fit God into the equation anymore. Your pastor replacement options are narrowed down to whose got the talent and celebrity. It sucketh yay verily!
” It sucketh yay verily!” LOL! 😆
Perhaps they will have a casting call – like tryouts for the Improv. 🙂
Holy cow! Our annual budget is approximately $85k per year. This includes salary, benevolence, rent, utilities, insurance & tithing to various missionaries. I like my budget much better than Ft. L. We have 5 Board members who watch every penny!
After reading this, I thought of a song that I was taught many years ago.
The Wise Man Built His House
The wise man built his house upon the rock
The wise man built his house upon the rock
The wise man built his house upon the rock
And the rain came tumbling down
Oh, the rain came down
And the floods came up
The rain came down
And the floods came up
The rain came down
And the floods came up
And the wise man’s house stood firm.
The foolish man built his house upon the sand
The foolish man built his house upon the sand
The foolish man built his house upon the sand
And the rain came tumbling down
Oh, the rain came down
And the floods came up
The rain came down
And the floods came up
The rain came down
And the floods came up
And the foolish man’s house went down!
So, build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ
Build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ
Build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ
And the blessings will come down
Amen?
Amen!
RB,
This situation is truly an example of “the devil’s in details.” You are pretty good at extrapolation and consequences will be an every day issue for every insider at FTL.
The reason for the hard stonewalling from CC is they don’t want people thinking about this that much. Their problem is that there are simply to many thinking people out there for them to silence.
@16
We make it work on about 60K for the year.
Covered,
I wonder what prime rib from a Holy Cow tastes like. Yum!
Prime rib…..
Three more days of Lent!
What I am looking forward to more than anything else is a fried egg.
The reality here is there is not a deep talent pool available for relocation…
Why on earth does a church that is bringing in over $40 million in tithes and offerings and over $67 million in total revenues need to borrow money for in the first place?!?! Now the merits of whether a small to medium church should borrow for purposes like owning their own building can be debated. But a church that is bringing in $67 million? Find a way to handle that huge amount of money that God has allowed to come into the church in a responsible fashion that doesn’t require indebtedness.
Maybe they could have started by cutting back on the $4.3 million expense for “media outreach”.
Is it the real truth that what many Americans worship are just $$$$. After all, we spend six days a week pursuing the American dream = fame and fortune, so Sunday is our day of rest in our Holy place of cash. What more evidence does one need? I’ll bet there are no uncomfortable, wooden pews in this modern temple to legal tender. Praise the Lord and pass the plate.
Not that honest churches don’t require finance. A roof over our heads and heat in the winter (or A/C in the case of Florida). Electric lights and a sound system, these are necessities. These are valid. Pastors need pay and insurance and a retirement fund. It isn’t all evil. But when the extravagance becomes evident, one has to wonder just what is the idol. And built with loans! That really gives me pause.
Our church did use debt to build new facilities, but we were oh so very careful with that debt. If the Lord wants us to have the new facilities, we expect He will provide, not the Bank of America.
Some would argue that mega churches are not, in and of themselves, the problem. But I sure wonder. Is it really true that size matters? Hmmm.
You know, if something awful happened to our priest the bishop would sent a replacement and life would go on. Depending on the circumstances we might mourn or it might be an occasion for gossip but parish life would continue uninterrupted.
“parish life would continue uninterrupted.”
As it should. When the Chief of our unit was retiring, he say that he should be missed by the troops until the time that the door closed behind him for the last time. He left and life as we knew it continued. When did we ever get this ideal that our leaders are so important to us?
We don’t even have a sound system, not even a microphone.
Yet this little parish has provided me and my husband with the richest spiritual life that we have experienced in our entire lives. (We are in our sixties.)
I am very curious as to whether there is a CC anywhere with a larger budget. Greg must be up there but I would be surprised if CCFL isn’t the largest. Michael? Rick Bob?
I hate to say this because ti sounds cynical. It also seems like beating the horse once it has passed away, but I’ve been to a local mega church. Not a giant church, but it does fit the definition of 5,000 parishioners. And I looked at the cars in the parking lot. Mercedes and Lexus outnumbered Ford and Chevy. It is in an expensive neighborhood; that I grant. But it does make one wonder.
I’m not completely negative on mega churches, but I have some severe doubts that this recent hullabaloo has not reduced.
Yet this must be an example of transparent finances if Michael was able to get the balance sheet. That’s good. Isn’t it?
Xenia, you are truly a breath of fresh air!
Ditto what covered said.
This is why I point the finger at the model and philosophy of ministry. The goose that lays the golden egg works until the goose is cooked. No more gold, no more church. Or you go down to the local goose shop and try to find another one. It really is kind of like building on the sand. When the storm comes……… It is there for all to see and learn.
covered,
I don’t have the numbers, but I would guess that only Greg and Costa Mesa are comparable.
If I were to speculate…and it’s only speculation…I would guess that the goose shop is located in Albuquerque, New Mexico as RiBo has written.
I drove past the little neighborhood church that graciously allows me to attend and one of the board members was weed-eating the parking lot…after his 10 hour shift at the cabinet factory.
DREAD IS GOING TO FLORIDA????
😉
Michael,
You know they need to work fast cuz’ atrophy will set in quickly. The staff departure is just now beginning and they need a dutch boy soon to put a finger in the leak.
filberts,
LOL!
FF,
I wonder if they know how short time is or if they have deceived themselves into thinking they have lots of time…or can handle it internally.
Michael,
They may try to maintain with their “rotation” of speakers but that cuts into the grain of their philosophy. They started with a rock star, grew with a rock star and now they think they will continue with substitute teachers. People hated that when they were in fourth grade let alone now in the giant classroom. I think they need some outside consulting before they make a string of mistakes that will kill the church. They need a couple of seasoned pastors an attorney and a financial genius just for starters. A trauma counselor wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
39 – who resigned? last I heard the dept was intact.
Stewardship. That is our priority. Sometimes (most of the time) securing a reasonable loan in order for the church to own its own property as opposed to rent from another is the wisest move.
Securing loans for EXPANSION however, is a different subject in my opinion.
The best thing our church did (and it was way before I ever showed up) was to use a bank loan to purchase our own place so the church could stop bouncing around town looking for accommodating landlords. However, the Bible does not lie when it says the borrower is servant to the lender and there are a lot of headaches in dealing with the bank.
But I’ve seen guys proudly talking about their lack of debt who are paying three times in rent for one third the space of a church which stepped out and secured a loan. And these same guys seem oblivious to the fact that their landlord could boot them at any lease renewal, or raise their rents to the stratosphere, could sell the property to a new owner (who could boot them) or any other problem that comes with trusting someone else (possibly an unbeliever) for the future of the church.
Stewardship
FF,
The substitute teacher analogy is perfect…
If they raptured me to Ft Lauderdale the tribulation would begin immediately. That would prove the pretrib rapture, increase my salary and save FTCC all in one move.
Steve,
Those are excellent observations…
BD,
I’d pay to watch…after I get a job, of course. 🙂
I give it 2 months then they will just relocate bob in hopes no one will remember his moral failing.
Dusty,
He may relocate himself and start over, but CC won’t.
Technically, Coy has been defrocked and CCFTL is no longer a CC.
Churches are very vulnerable structures. Most live week to week financially and people attend completely out of free will. They don’t have to get out bed, get everybody dressed and warm up the car. I have such respect and appreciation when I drive up and see cars in the parking lot at my church. I fear that one day something will happen and nobody shows. Maybe that’s a healthy fear. Churches are fragile and many pastors just take them for granted. I’m sorry but Bob Coy is an idiot.
Let me correct myself.
CCFTL is still showing as a CC.
FF,
I agree on every count…
Michael:
“Technically, Coy has been defrocked and CCFTL is no longer a CC.”
I would expect the church will still be considered a CC until the church ordains its next pastor. If he is not a CC guy, they will give him opportunity to becomes affiliated. Not to split hairs on technicalities, this is how I’ve generally seen it happen. They won’t soon force a name change and confiscate all the doves. 🙂
Long ago, in a land far away, I remember my ex husband often speaking of feeling the pressures of needing to ‘be there’ because of the financial needs of the church. My ex feared taking time off because when people knew he’d be gone, attendance would plummet, thus offerings would plummet putting stress on the whole machinery.
IMO our church was not extravagant in it’s finances and a financial ‘pie chart’ was available to anyone who asked for one.
It was an inescapable trap.
I know he intentionally set himself up as a ‘star’, but people are drawn to churches for several reasons, one being, the pastor’s teaching or style. Neither good nor bad, it is what it is. That is the nature of people. We go again and again to restaurants that we like, etc.
Just a reminder to not give up praying for the Coys. All of them, including Bob. I don’t sympathize with him at all. He disgusts me. Always has. However, he needs to get his crap together for the sake of his kids and Diane. Diane needs a LOT of recovery, in more ways than she can currently dream of. Please continue to pray for this messed up family AND the church, messed up as it may be.
FF, I am still surprised that people show up at all! And I’ve been doing this for 19 years…
a pastor,
You’re correct.
I spoke hastily.
paigemom,
That comment is pure gold.
Thank you.
OK if nothing changes (of course BC’s salary may stop and that will save a mill or two each year) the current cash expenses are about $4.9 mill (excludes depreciation) a month and the average income is about $3.6 mill without special projects. Hmmmm let me think? I would say they are bankrupt even before BC’s fall from grace.
The numbers don’t lie, this church has been living literally on borrowed time for awhile now and even though they have a “financial report” I would bet no one actually read it.
So in light of the CC propensity for lack of accountability, who was responsible for read ing the financials and saying we are in deep you know what? Could it be Bob Coy is more like Judas than Jesus? Let’s see stealing maybe from the purse.
I would say they, CCFL, are not living in God’s wisdom or counsel.
I do have one thought. I wonder if Skip H. would be willing to move to Florida?
Does anyone know the ages of Coy’s kids? At 58 it seems they would be grown and out of the house.
I’m available for the Position. All my sermons will be based on Roddy Piper promos
How can CC hold him accountable when they don’t have affiliations? Where are all the ‘we can’t do anything ‘cuz it is not our church’ comments? is this really a new CC custom? to defrock a immoral pastor? and if so, can we revisit some of the other immoral pastors listed here at PP and get them defrocked?
BD–great response to my tongue-in-cheek comment.
Regarding finances, it works two ways–the pastor of the neighborhood church that graciously allows me to attend is largely incompetent, unmotivated, and needs to leave for the survival of the church. Offerings and attendance has nosedived and reserve funds will be exhausted by early summer. The board is unwilling to direct him to leave due to the poor health of the pastor’s wife. The pastor can’t afford to leave because he is near retirement age and has inadequate retirement funds & no real alternative skills. It is a bind which revolves around money because the board refuses to make it about competence.
Bob, you could not be more wrong. Those statements show nothing like what you reported.
Actually the interest charge is very modest for this church, and nothing worthy of criticism – the problem, as Michael pointed out (and which any pastor with a church loan is familiar with) is that these loans are not 30-year loans like a home mortgage. They are re-underwritten every 5 years and legally the loan is a balloon payment at the end of that five years with no obligation for the bank to reunderwrite.
Bob:
“So in light of the CC propensity for lack of accountability, who was responsible for read ing the financials and saying we are in deep you know what?”
It should have been the financial board.
Are those figures actual expenses or budgeted expenses? I know there would probably be a difference.
I hesitate to mention that it looks like they had a really good year in the year ending June 2013: they cut their debt substantially, refinanced and consolidated a bunch of loans, and swapped out their interest rate risk to get a fixed rate, so when rates go up their payments won’t go with them. It looks to me like they’re carrying substantially less debt than they were a year prior. They also have less outstanding from their line of credit.
It’s hard for non-profits to get good rates for long-term debt, which is why you’re seeing this five-year thing with a balloon payment at the end.
This looks like an organization with its financial house in order. If you divided all these numbers by a factor of 100 you’d have a church you would be happy to be affiliated with.
As far as Bob goes, if he is really repentant then he is my brother and I dare not judge him lest I consider myself and how easily I can get ensared by sin. In fact, I love him and embrace him without chastising him. I see so many that are prideful talking about he disgusts them. Do you stop to think that maybe you have also disgusted God at some point in your life? Oh but I know, Adultery is one of the Church’s pet Sins. Forget Loving money or being Prideful, God forbid someone falls into sexual sin, The American Church has almost eqauted that with blasphemy. Keeping gorging yourselves on McDonald’s and taking Pride that you haven’t ben caught in of the American Church’s pet sins. We know it’s okay to be a glutton and prideful and love money in todays church just so long as you don’t plug no one in the bootie or have sex outside marriage.
5 board members to look over $85,000? I’ve seen that go sideways too…too many chiefs isn’t always what it’s cracked up to be.
My business does over 500k in sales, with one person in charge. Works well.
Dusty,
On a national level all CC can do is remove affiliation.
The local board and elders are responsible for any other accountability.
16 and 18.
“ok now folks today’s teaching is on sex with women who are not your wife, don’t do it, it is sin…but you may say, “but pastor you do that”, …”but i tell you do as i say not as i do’. “
CCFTL’s financials are available on their website if you choose to interpret them. No need for much speculation. They may have taken them down since the ruckus.
FF,
They were still up as of this morning.
We must remember that if we choke our brother in Christ then God may choke us when Judgement day comes if we don’t repent. Was Bob’s repentance real? I don’t know but if it was then I dare not mock him. This may be the best thing for his soul to get out of that false Pastor Centered type of Church Model. If those Florida peeps are depressed now becasue of this and don’t go to CCFTL then that says more about their charachter then it does Bob’s. It was their fault for putting him on a pedastol, the Bible warns about that type of Fawning over Man. Thta’s why I only look to Jesus and the men of the bible as true examples. I don’t look to man even if they are dead 16th Century Reformers. If Bob was fleecing the flock of out their Hard earned $$ I hope his wife didn’t know about it or she will answer to God too just like Sapphira did.
. If those Florida peeps are depressed now becasue of this and don’t go to CCFTL then that says more about their charachter then it does Bob’s
————————————————————
Solomon, you’re the same guy who repeatedly tells us how you left your old church because of the sins of the pastor and refuses to attend any fellowship today…right?
We are all saying, ‘man I wouldn’t want that job(celebrity preacher CCFTL)’ but really I wonder how many guys are crawling over each other to get their app in?
Oh, save one, Solomon wants the job.
I have felt the hurt, sorrow for Bob’s family, the humiliation on behalf of all pastors and compassion for the staff and congregation. Now the pragmatist in me is taking over and I think about the enormous amount of time, energy, money, sweat and tears that will be expended by an already emotionally exhausted mass of people. Even in transitioning to a new pastor the fatigue levels are so high that people would just rather have a new start. That was the dynamic that fueled the rapid growth of at least four churches in Abq after the Skip debacle. Believe it or not people get tired of talking about illicit sex scandals. They take a long shower and find another church.
Dusty,
It’s a pretty short list of guys who are even remotely qualified.
I haven’t heard them say that Coy is gone for good…and that troubles me.
FF,
Those are true statements…and more reasons why time is short for them to act.
Amen, FF.
It is deplorable for anyone to be critical of God’s people who might feel led to another church after all this.
And it is hypocritical in the highest for that criticism to come from certain quarters on this blog.
Michael said, “I haven’t heard them say that Coy is gone for good…and that troubles me.’
i know, me too
FF,
we have all been where you are….we have all felt everything you are feeling. I am sorry you are hurting.
So if we come across as uncaring it is because we are becoming callused by all the wounds we have acquired over the past years dealing with the same problems.
Steve said, “And it is hypocritical in the highest for that criticism to come from certain quarters on this blog.”
who is suggesting they stay and put up with it?
Disgust is an interesting word. verb: to provoke to loathing, repugnance, aversion. I like movies and there some actors that I appreciate and others that disgust me. It is not a “Holiness” thing at all I just have strong feelings about entertainers. There are some that I should be disgusted by but am not because I find them, well, entertaining. I think the disgust factor, particularly amongst women, is going to determine some attendance factors in the near future of CCFTL. It is certainly speculation but this is not my first BBQ.
From a financial perspective,
this is actually pretty normal for churches that have been in existence for less than 50 years.
Balloon payments are normal in church financing (as church’s have different financing options than the average person)
If the church’s budget is in excess of 20 mill a year, 35 mill in debt is actually quite normal (and not that horrendous) by usual standards (although maybe horrendous from a biblical perspective). It’s like if you make 40k a year, it is not crazy for you to owe 100k on a house payment.
Plus they no doubt had a keyman policy on Coy (that also is standard) for church’s that have debt on a building.
So although the #s are large, it’s pretty normal
View,
My question is if the key man policy would cover “moral failure”?
According to my attorney friend there is no such thing in an insurance policy but it can appear in a contractual agreement. Sports professionals routinely sign contracts with moral clauses.
It depends on the policy. But it is not the norm for such a provision. The insurance is designed for this exact type of situation. If an organization loses it’s principal unexpectantly (no matter how) there is the explicit expectation that finances will be effected, thus the necessity of the policy. For a budget/org the size of CCFTL , the keyman policy would likely be in the 10s of millions.
New Life Church seems to be making it after the Haggard debacle. I think they were in 26 million.
New Life was left with $26 million in debt, dwindling resources, and uncertainty at every turn.
(New Life After the Fall of Ted Haggard, CT Nov 28, 2013)
correction – CT, Nov 22, 2013
On the idea of the next pastor, I would guess their Board is not worrying about it
It’s one of the top 10 churches in the US in size, financially they are pretty solid overall, multiple campuses, etc
They will make a short list after some due diligence & invite a new pastor in
They are in the driver’s seat & will pretty much be able to cherry pick who they want
Like New Life, they will be fine.
I know someone who goes to New Life & they said the new pastor there is great.
Different from the guy who fell, but the church is way healthier & reaching new people
#92 My son is a worship leader at New Life and he says similar. Different but much better.
I doubt you could even get a Lloyds of London agent after a three martini lunch to underwrite a pastor for “moral failure” – at any premium.
Key man policies are for life insurance (we had several in force for clients at our agency) and there is also key man disability which is far less popular but can be required in certain circumstances involving loans.
However, as stated, given the size of the assets, the loan is modest – this stuff is all relative. They don’t ask for a key man policy on me, nor did they on my predecessor when it comes to our church loan.
Steve:
“Bob, you could not be more wrong. Those statements show nothing like what you reported.”
OK let’s look at the total.
The giving total for 2013 was $71,319,217 expense less depreciation (non-cash) $59,178,377 for a total cash flow of $12,140,840. From this number the mortgage payments have to be made.
Additionally if you go to the Cash flow statement you will see the 3+ mill increase in cash at the end of the accounting period is due to the fact that they borrowed an addition $5.6 mill more in long term debt.
Of course we can look at and eliminate the school, income and expenses, which use the facilities, and other items to see this church spends more than it brings in in 2013. and the burden of the facility will not be met by the continued normal support of the general giving.
Michael is correct they can’t make it and I am saying they can’t make it at the current income even if BC had stayed.
BTW General giving is $35 Mill and I assume that is what is giving when the plate is passed around and you will notice the only other big income item is the school.
No I’m right if BC had stayed another God led capital campaign was on the horizon.
The devil is in details.
View from the board:
Since CCFL has a rather big burden of debt relative to income, look at their cash flows analysis, I would say this little error on the part of BC will cost conservatively about at least $5 million and probably closer to $10 mill in giving over 2014. Those numbers alone seriously jeopardize their ability to meet on-going debt service.
Of course bankers will be more than happy to talk and renegotiate. they really don’t want to foreclose on a church.
The other problem those is the intellectual material value, ie BC’s sermons, books and audio, just took a steep decline.
“Solomon, you’re the same guy who repeatedly tells us how you left your old church because of the sins of the pastor and refuses to attend any fellowship today…right?”
1. I didn’t get depressed over it.
2. I never said exactly why I left CCM
3. I go to a Home Fellowship
“It’s a pretty short list of guys who are even remotely qualified.
I haven’t heard them say that Coy is gone for good…and that troubles me.”
So he doesn’;t get to fellowship there anymore? Show me where that is biblical if he has repented
No one underwrites moral failure.
Let me ask one more question, does CCFTL have a membership commitment pledge, you know the one where when a person joins a church community they pledge to support the organization financially?
If it’s a real CC I would bet they don’t and it’s just a walk in church.
Yep, offerings will be substantially down.
Boy does God have a way of shaking our tree to see if there are figs on it.
Bob,
Why would God hamper the lives of 20,000 people for the sins of Bob Coy?
it is hard to kill a big church because after the initial loss there is always a core group that wants to stay alive and move on. What can kill a church is unresolved debt and foreclosure.
BofA’s loan is well collateralized, CCFTL has a lot of real estate assets and the market has rebounded enough to make them sellable.
When it gets tight, they’ll just have to start selling some stuff off.
Bob, you are counting interest expense twice, ignoring profitable ministries on the property that are generating cash that the debt was used to fund…..when you make such assumptions and errors on a financial scale like we are talking about here, it leads to erroneous conclusions.
This was not a church in trouble financially, or in over their heads in debt.
One source is telling me that Steven Tchividjian (sp?) is going to be Coy’s replacement. I figured it would be Heitzig, but someone in Florida is saying its BG’s grandkid. We’ll see what happens.
That would be cool, the brothers Tchividjian – Tullian & Steven having a preaching duel each Sunday in Ft Lauderdale 🙂
These Tchividjians are Armenians! They are supposed to be Orthodox!
RiBo,
I’ve heard the same, but can’t get a lick of confirmation.
Not sure he can carry that load…
You know what, looking at those numbers makes me sort of ill.
Sometimes, I wish the whole American mega-church scene would just come crashing down and people could get back to a smaller church scene with more real world problems like X’s #9. That makes for far better fellowship and caring than the mega-church scene.
That is the kind of church that I relate to.
Steve’s #44 was so true.
It looks like their “benevolence” ministry is less than 2% of the budget if I’m reading that right…
Michael,
“Not sure he can carry that load…”
He won’t have to – the 2nd guy in gets no power. The board will carry the load.
MLD,
I’m not sure he has the charisma is what I’m saying.
His granddads name still means something there, though…
Yes, Michael, but their “media” ministry is 3 times more than benevolence. So it’s clear they had their priorities straight.
KevinH,
I stand corrected. 🙂
You’re reading wrong, Michael. I think you are looking at the minimal revenue specifically given to benevolence. They SPENT over 2 million, and as a percentage that should be based off the general giving/tithe income.
Steve,
I see two different entries that confuse me.
The offerings are over 35M
There is an entry for benevolence of 147K
Then another for “outreach” and benevolence for 2M
Doesn’t make sense.
I defer to your expertise in this matter.
The 147,000 is a revenue entry – those whose offering checks specifically were for that purpose. It is not a budget item. It is what came in, in that form.
The 2 million is in the expenses – what was spent. Meaning all but the 147,000 spent came out of the general 35 million.
RB @105,
I heard the same thing from a west coast source. They are probably vetting somebody now as well they should. The BG name is still big medicine in the south east.
Steve,
Thank you.
You’re right.
I’m an idiot. 🙂
One of the confusing things in looking at a church statement is we don’t always know how a church categorizes things.
For example, all the retreat money that goes in and then goes right back out as an expense. A church has to account for that “income” but really the church is just a facilitator between the believer and the retreat center.
#109
Derek, Orthodox churches can be very small an intimate but it’s part of a larger world.
Only on an Orthodox forum could I ask a question about dyeing eggs red for Pascha and receive the following answer from some dear soul who lives who knows where (Bulgaria? Siberia?)
“You must smear your eggs with duck grease. This is what you must do to preserve them.”
Yeah, but even with the corrections, they still spent a lot more on media ministry than benevolence. So all is still good. 😉
In my insurance world of course, that is what a trust account was for. When the money was not relevant to the operations of the insurance agency, but was simply people paying their premiums to us to forward to the insurance company.
There are some states that allow insurance agents to comingle funds in one account. That always blew my mind. Talk about a situation ripe for abuse. We often had a few hundred thousand dollars in the insurance trust account at a given moment, and might have been almost down to nothing in checking at the end of the month.
So our church has a separate account for stuff like retreat money we collect. So there is no confusion. CCFTL likely did too (though I have no idea) but for formal accounting statements such a distinction does not show and everything gets lumped into some vague “ministry” or “outreach” category
Kevin, I do think a legit argument for much of a media ministry is as a missions outreach. I found CCCM because of a show on the radio a couple weeks after my salvation.
I do hear you though…but I have a hard time knocking over 2 million a year given for benevolence just because another ministry had more money spent.
Well, if Boz is related, then they could set up some good Child Protection policies and not pull another Rodger Thomas situation.
What percentage of the total monies collected and total budget goes to “benevolence” and actually helping folks?
Seems a bad ROI if your goal is to help folks vs. being entertained. Why not just give the money to the local Food Bank and Homeless Shelter?
…oh yah, b/c that’s not “Serving Jesus!”….not like CC does it.
Steve, I’m not saying there should be no media ministry. But when the money given to media is more than twice as much as what is given towards benevolence, then I see a priority problem.
Ribo, you said, “BG’s grandkid”, isn’t that your son? 🙂
Wrong BG, LOL. The one that’s saved, not the other one 😉
Xenia,
I grew up in small churches.
My family has been at the forefront of fixing things and helping to raise money to fix things at the church.
It reminds me of real life and the struggles that come with it.
Lets put it this way.
When I was 12 or so, my pastor had drawn my Mom’s name in a secret Santa type of thing at church.
He decided to get my Mom switches and ashes as a gag gift.
Unfortunately, he boxed and wrapped them and put them in his car’s floor board where they caught a fire and burned a hole in his carpet.
Only in smaller churches can you all know each other and the pastor like that.
I wish more people would abandon the American mega-church scene and get involved with churches where you can actually know your pastor and the other members.
Kevin, unless I know what all is included in that category, it is hard to talk about a priority problem. For example, is the staff associated with the media ministry included in that category? I doubt there is much addl. staff, if any, associated with the benevolence ministry as it probably is supported by volunteers or assistants already on staff. But the media ministry likely has some engineers and others who would not have jobs otherwise. But again, I am talking with no direct knowledge. I just think that can’t assume that all that money is simply going to TV and radio stations. It would not be uncommon for the sound boards and a lot of other equipment to be lumped in that category too
The church has 20,000 people. 2 million given for benevolence from the general offerings. That’s 100 per person. How many churches with 500 people are giving away anything close to 50,000 a year?
Steve,
I appreciate your professional demeanor on this subject. Details are very important and we need to ask questions but we need to get it right. Thanks!
Derek – secret Santa in a small country like SBC church – I bought my person pig’s ears I bought at the butcher shop. = a GAG gift in 2 ways. 🙂
When I went to South Canyon Baptist Church in Rapid City, the congregation was about 400-500 on any given Sunday.
It is disappointing to go to a Church for 2 and 1/2 years and people still ask if you are new.
And that is only with a relatively small congregation.
Your SS class knows you and the people who sit near you in the service, but others don’t.
Widow’s mite Steve. You can spin numbers any way you want.
The fact is they collect over $70 million a year, they only give $2 million in benevolence to really help people in need.
They give less than 3% of the money they take in to benevolence.
Less than 3%.
CCFTL spends 300% more on Administrative than they do on benevolence or 3 times as much.
CCFTL spends as much on Interest as they do on benevolence.
Before we go any farther down this road I’m bearing that some of the programs they run that wouldn’t fall directly under benevolence have a huge impact on the community.
I want to know more about those before chucking more rocks.
Derek, do like me – wear a bow tie that flashes light. Soon they will not only know you, but never forget you. 🙂
I’m not spinning numbers. Spinning numbers is when someone says a church “collects” 70 million a year, even though 25% of that total is for the school. Then ignores all of the costs of that same school in calculating a percentage given to people in need.
Rick Bob – point blank question. What percentage does YOUR church give? You mention the transparency of the finances often, so you should have those numbers readily available to us, right?
Steve:
I’m very conservative and I read the financials very closely.
RB is correct more than you, CCFLT has debt secured by property probably purchased at well below cost. As far as your ministries ans such the one big ministry which is self supporting and uses the facilities (but not charged for it) is the school. Their expenses are less than the income. The rest of the ministries are basically small in comparison.
My points are this, the schopl will lose people, the weekly service will lose people and considering the cash flow, by their own statement, required borrowing to sustain it last year, I’d say they are in a heap of trouble.
Of course this isn’t a business and God will “speak” to some people and the leaders will spread some guilt to push people to give more.
Overall I have seen and experienced this before. The church builds on their future and not on their needs, so when the income hick-ups they are in a heap of hurt. Well we just heard a major burp.
MLD:
The fig tree in Jesus time represented the leaders and when Jesus cursed it it was just after His confrontation up in the Court of the Gentiles. God shakes the tree to see if it has figs, BC didn’t have any figs, just a shiny court.
Well said, Michael @138
For example, there are plenty of support groups at the church. Recovery, cancer fighters and so forth. I am sure there are some administration expenses to have such groups, and I am sure these are not included in the benevolence expenses.
You folks are, beyond the shadow of a debt, the most typative peeps on this urf! I can’t bereave my eyes! My speakers are burnin’ up. I’m, so far, behind! Slow down and lemma catch my breaf.
Bob, as long as it is just BC getting shaken that’s OK – but rocking the lives of 20,000 for his sin?? . I mean would I know my puppy died because of BC’s sin so that I could learn a lesson – or just assume bad luck?
Bob, I do not know how you can read the financials closely and say they increased their debt and the other statements you have made. Page 18 – long term debt. Page 7 – increase in net assets the last 2 years.
Have you found your error of counting the mortgage interest expense twice, yet?
I know you did not read them THAT closely since you asked about any giving commitments in your post 100, and the statements do cover that topic.
This was my world for over 20 years as a small business owner and the pastor the last several years of a mid-sized church. I’m not reading them incorrectly. But I don’t have time to discuss it further tonight.
Peace
Bad timing for CCFTL, this is a big weekend with Good Friday and Easter services….friends and family who don’t usually come to church…..praying Gods blessing on the innocent bystanders.
so pastors, do you do an Easter message, teach from where you are in your line up, or teach a seeker message or a combo of all of the above…?? what do you do for good Friday?
Dusty,
Great timing! Tomorrow I turn my heart toward The Easter message and a difficult funeral for a 47 year old that I knew pretty well. I coached his son in little league football for five years. We spent a lot of time cheering and shouting from the sidelines. Adults are crazy when it comes to youth sports. He was ready to go be with the Lord. Ministry goes on indeed. Thank you!
Frosted Flake, you will be in my prayers this weekend for your heavy heart and your challenging task.
The social gospel is strong in this thread.
Ex-out the school numbers…which CCFTL includes in their numbers (it isn’t my financial report) and you’re still UNDER 5%.
#150, The social gospel was strong with Jesus too.
Jesus said, “The poor will be with you always.” Then He said to go make disciples. What do you think His priorities for the church was?
I’m not minimizing helping the needy. But it’s odd for me to see so many people stigmatizing the ministry that broadcast the gospel and taught the Bible to disciple believers.
How do you “make a disciple” in 40 minute sermonettes one day a week?
Steve
I’m just an irrelevant person here and maybe I’m blinded for my distaste for anything CC. Please don’t start the comparison of experience and don’t compare a church to a business. A business sells stuff while a church is a community, that’s unless we can agree BC sold stuff and the people come into the building to buy.
Oh and I don’t think I counted the mortgage expense twice. CCFTL. did some creative stuff in 2013, like paying off short term debt with long term debt. In their cash flow reconciliation they borrowed 5.6 mil and then ended up with 3+ million in the bank.
I just don’t know how you miss the fact they spend all they bring in, at least in 2013, and more. How can an organization whose main draw is BC keep their spending commitments at the present rate when the inevitable multi-million loss if income is at the door?
Enjoy enjoy your evening Steve.
a pastor,
In the US the gospel is broadcast almost 24/7 everywhere.
Now I am by no means a “social gospel” kind of person, but was another radio or TV program (I know not which) really needed?
I like these verses which sort of point us in a better direction and give light to a lot of problems with the American mega-church scene.
We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints— and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us. Accordingly, we urged Titus that as he had started, so he should complete among you this act of grace. But as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in our love for you—see that you excel in this act of grace also.
2 Corinthians 8:1-7 ESV
RB: You don’t think the Word of God is alive and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword? That it pierces? You don’t believe that it is profitable for correction, reproof? That it will not return void? That it teaches us to obey all that Christ commanded us? You don’t believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation?
You actually believe that the church’s greater focus is giving away money and canned goods, as opposed to carrying the message of the gospel to an unsaved world and the message of scriptural discipleship to as many people as possible?
a pastor, how did Jesus do it? What did he do when preached the gospel? Did he build a building and put a band on the stage to play some cool music and then walk up on stage to a lectern and then give some clitchy anecdotes and drop a few one-liners?
Jesus healed folks, he fed folks, he helped them…while preaching the gospel.
Derek,
Amen. That’s one reason I made a point to say I wasn’t minimizing supporting the poor. We could also list the pointed commands to care for widows and orphans. But to disparage the preaching of the gospel? Really?
And, who am I to say if another Bible program was needed. CCFL is not my servant, so who am I to judge the vision their Master gave them? Should we carry your logic on out? If one church is preaching the gospel in a city, there only needs to be one mega-church in that city? I mean, one message should be enough for everyone, right? Why duplicate?
But Jesus did in fact say to take the gospel out. Will you really judge a ministry for trying to do just that?
If I ever decided to do church, I’d turn it on its ear.
I’d have a clinic with volunteer doctors and dentists and nurses to help folks, give out meds, etc. I’d have food and clothing available for those in need….and then I’d give a gospel message. Any money collected “for Jesus!” would go to help folks and not line my pockets.
That’d be different. But it wouldn’t be evangelical church.
Then to make “disciples” I’d show them how to do the same in their community and tell them to go help people in a real way instead of building buildings and man kingdoms and making a nice career from public speaking “for Jesus!”
#157, First, I reject your juxtaposition of helping the poor and making disciples. Second, if the church is the body of Christ, then it should continue the work he started. He healed people physically and spiritually. That to me is what the church should be. Proclaiming the gospel, demonstrating the gospel and being the gospel. I’m a little shocked to read your pushback as a pastor.
Rick Bob:
“a pastor, how did Jesus do it? What did he do when preached the gospel? Did he build a building and put a band on the stage to play some cool music and then walk up on stage to a lectern…?
Jesus healed folks, he fed folks, he helped them…while preaching the gospel.”
Jesus healed folks to prove that He is the Son of God. He fed folks that were actually his mega-church audience. He gathered thousands of people who sat around to hear him preach. He stood on a hillside so all of them could hear Him. He had no lectern or microphone, but he took the stage he had and preached to crowds.
_______________________
“… and then give some clitchy anecdotes and drop a few one-liners?”
As I suspected, your issue is with preaching style.
_________________________
As I said, I’m not trying to minimize helping the needy. But you are minimizing the preaching of the Word and the message of the gospel. I’ll say it again. Christ said we’ll always have the poor. Then He commanded us to carry the gospel into all the world. Would you really stigmatize this?
#159, Who disparaged preaching the gospel? Certainly not me.
Now I understand why the devil was attacking this church so hard and so viciously, with a budget that size think of all the good that was being done for the community and for God’s kingdom, and at the same token it’s not surprising how he leaves these little churches alone for the only growth and fruit they produce is that of scoffers and mockers who serve his cause very well!
“Jesus healed folks to prove that He is the Son of God.”
No, not exclusively….he healed folks and helped folks because he had compassion for them.
“When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.”
“When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.”
“Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way.”
Compassion. That’s a key part of the gospel that you are missing.
Jean:
“#157, First, I reject your juxtaposition of helping the poor and making disciples.”
I’m not trying to be sarcastic. I’m trying to understand your point. You reject me placing ‘helping the poor’ close to ‘making disciples’?
“Second, if the church is the body of Christ, then it should continue the work he started. He healed people physically and spiritually.”
I agree. That’s why I said I wasn’t minimizing helping the needy.
“That to me is what the church should be.”
The church should be making disciples. That’s the great commission. That includes proclaiming the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. It includes teaching the Bible, which is all profitable for such purpose. This thread lambasted CCFL for its media ministry, which exists to broadcast the gospel and the Bible.
“Proclaiming the gospel, demonstrating the gospel and being the gospel.”
Then you should agree with me that the media ministry was not a bad thing.
“I’m a little shocked to read your pushback as a pastor.”
You’re shocked that a pastor has said that feeding the hungry is good, and proclaiming the gospel/Word of God is good? Because that’s what I’ve said so far.
Blessings…
Rick Bob:
“Compassion. That’s a key part of the gospel that you are missing.”
How am I missing compassion by pointedly and repeatedly not minimizing help for the needy, while pointing out that the great commission is important in the church? This thread dissected the benevolence fund while lambasting the media ministry. I’m asking for people to consider the importance of the latter.
a pastor, are you sure that you want to dig in on the premise that BC was making disciples? I agree with RiBo. I guess we have a different take on what making disciples actually means. BC was making $ and he was making a mess of God’s business. If a church that size is giving so little to the poor, then that’s a huge problem.
I do not want to throw gas on the fire but when the earthquake hit Haiti, I went with the first team from the US to do an assessment. There were 2 CC pastor’s with us and they wanted to check on the CC in Port au Prince which was understandable. When we got there the pastor told us that we couldn’t give him any money or aid because it all had to come “through” CCFTL. This was an ignorant decision made by someone at CCFTL. Let me just say from my experience being in that business for several years, there’s big money in “helping” other’s and it doesn’t always make it’s way to the intended destination.
James 1:27
James 2 fifteen & sixteen
1 John 3:17
These are kind of important no?
Jean:
“#159, Who disparaged preaching the gospel? Certainly not me.”
I never said you did. I was responding to those who were disparaging the media ministry whose primary purpose was to preach the Word and Gospel. It was mocked a derided while comparing its budget to the benevolence budget. The logic seems to be that they shouldn’t have been giving so much attention to the Word/gospel, and their greater purpose should have been to feed the hungry.
Again, I’m not minimizing helping the poor, but Jesus didn’t leave His parting words to the church by establishing: “Go. Feed the hungry. Start social programs that clothe people. Tend to their physical needs.”
No. He said to take the gospel into the whole world. Make disciples and teach them.
Blessings.
a pastor, #167, now you’re being dishonest. You implied earlier that Jesus’ priority for the church was to make disciples by preaching, and you implicitly minimized the church’s responsibility to help the poor by citing Jesus’ words that there will always be poor people.
I terminated an earlier discussion with you when you started obfuscating, and now I will do so again, because I’m not really into those sorts of games.
“He said to take the gospel into the whole world”
Then go somewhere where the gospel hasn’t been heard. 2 Billion folks haven’t heard the Gospel in the world today…and none of them are in the United States.
Evangelicals are just entertaining the already saved and preaching to the choir. What a waste of money and resources of the bible is really true.
And by these little churches I’m referring to the churches where these scoffers and mockers attend,
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. Rev 3:9
covered:
“James 1:27Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)
James 2 fifteen & sixteen
1 John 3:17Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)
These are kind of important no?”
Yes. I’m not sure how more plainly to say it. Our church has a benevolence and other service-oriented budget line items. We take these very seriously.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t be doing these things. I’m saying that you shouldn’t minimize the great commission ministries.
Jean:
“a pastor, #167, now you’re being dishonest. You implied earlier that Jesus’ priority for the church was to make disciples by preaching, and you implicitly minimized the church’s responsibility to help the poor by citing Jesus’ words that there will always be poor people.
I terminated an earlier discussion with you when you started obfuscating, and now I will do so again, because I’m not really into those sorts of games.”
Jean. Let me be clear. The church has a greater responsibility to take the gospel and make disciples than it does to create social programs. By “I’m not minimizing”, I meant that I am not saying that we shouldn’t compassionately fill physical needs. By “I’m not minimizing”, I meant that I wasn’t totally negating. I apologize for my lack of clarity.
I would ask you to point out where I obfuscated elsewhere, as I would like to clear that up also. I take that as a serious allegation and would like to respond.
” I’m saying that you shouldn’t minimize the great commission ministries.”
According to credible missionary sources, 2 Billion people have not heard the gospel in the world today.
Zero of them live in the United States.
Jean:
I’d like to follow up, since my character and integrity has been called into question. You said:
“now you’re being dishonest.”
That’s a serious allegation, and I’ll ask you to make it with care.
You said:
“You ***implied*** earlier that Jesus’ priority for the church was to make disciples by preaching, and you ***implicitly*** minimized the church’s responsibility to help the poor by citing Jesus’ words that there will always be poor people.”
I said:
“Jesus said, “The poor will be with you always.” Then He said to go make disciples. What do you think His priorities for the church was?
I’m not minimizing helping the needy. But it’s odd for me to see so many people stigmatizing the ministry that broadcast the gospel and taught the Bible to disciple believers.”
I did give greater priority to that great commission. In the very same quote, I tried to clarify that helping the needy is also important. Perhaps my choice of verbiage wasn’t technically perfect, but I would not have purposefully attempted an obfuscation in the same quote– if I were one for purposeful obfuscation.
Let me do this again, so everyone will know my stance, and that I am being honest about it. We should give to the poor. We should care even more about the great commission.
I’ll ask that, in the future, you ask for clarification before calling me a liar.
Blessings.
If you really cared about the “great commission” you wouldn’t be spending all your time and money in the U.S. You would be somewhere reaching the 2 Billion that haven’t even heard the message once.
a pastor, I must have misinterpreted your 157. I also don’t think that BC was putting the great commission into practice. He was entertaining the masses and I still haven’t found that passage.
Rick Bob:
“According to credible missionary sources, 2 Billion people have not heard the gospel in the world today.
Zero of them live in the United States.”
Is everyone in the US saved? Are they all living the lives of disciples?
Did Jesus say to live out the great commission until we feel like we’ve done it enough? Should we just close all the churches and stop teaching the Word?
You are saying the time for the great commission in America is over?
It’s not about some sort of conviction to the “great commission” or you would be in China or Saudi Arabia or Iraq or Afghanistan or somewhere like that.
You use the great commission to justify doing church the way you like to do it which is the evangelical pastor-centered style where you go up on a stage and deliver a 40 minute entertaining talk about something in the bible and then everyone has lunch and coffee afterwards and goes back to their suburban homes and feels like they’ve done something good.
Many are under the false assumption that BC was the church and the church was BC. The church is comprised of all those individuals serving God with their abilities and talents. So BC was the captain, the captain may have suffered shipwreck, but the ship remains afloat sailing on course, because ultimately Jesus is the captain! And right now what they need is our prayer for God to appoint the person or persons he wants at the helm!
“go into all the world” probably didn’t mean competing for market-share in a super-churched up town in South Florida where everyone has already heard the gospel a zillion times.
covered:
“a pastor, I must have misinterpreted your 157. I also don’t think that BC was putting the great commission into practice. He was entertaining the masses and I still haven’t found that passage.”
Since you’re not the only one, it’s becoming apparent that I could have given my POV in a better manner. My main points are:
(1) Yes. We should serve the needy.
(2) Our primary purpose is to take the great commission.
I understand that you are not a fan of his teaching style. I don’t think that’s really a budget line item issue. 🙂
RB:
“You use the great commission to justify doing church the way you like to do it which is the evangelical pastor-centered style where you go up on a stage and deliver a 40 minute entertaining talk about something in the bible and then everyone has lunch and coffee afterwards and goes back to their suburban homes and feels like they’ve done something good.”
Huh? I wasn’t even talking about ministry style. I was talking about budget line items. You don’t like CCFL’s ministry style. Cool. It’s not a reason to trample through their budget. You have bigger fish to fry with them.
PS: You’ve never heard me teach, and you’ve never been to my church.
a pastor,
I understood you. I am sure others arguing with you do too.
I see where you are coming from.
I just don’t see the need for more radio/tv programs. There are plenty here in the US.
I think this is part of the problem sometimes. Very hands off ways of doing things.
That is not he only way to preach the gospel. it is merely the easiest and most monetarily costly.
Maybe, we need to take the harder and cheaper ways. God can use those ways just as mightily as a radio program. Maybe more so, if it is hands on.
BTW, RB would argue with a rock.
I’ve argued with Derek which is the same thing.
Rick Bob:
“If you really cared about the “great commission” you wouldn’t be spending all your time and money in the U.S. You would be somewhere reaching the 2 Billion that haven’t even heard the message once.”
Can you give me a scripture for that? Seems Jesus actually told the disciples to take the gospel to their home town, their local region, their extended region, and the whole world. We each have our calling. i.e. The Great Commission does not strictly equate to “World Missions”.
Look around the US. You seriously think the work of the gospel is finished here? really?
Acts 1:8 — But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
I can’t really have a fair conversation b/c Michael is moderating half my comments.
Derek gets to take a shot at me even though I haven’t said anything to him out of trying to abide by some rules and as usual there is a double standard.
I’ll go back to my blog since it is still very clear that even though I have invested much time here, given money/stuff and given lots of information and also helped promote this blog, I am persona no grata and not welcome.
Hugh,
Your #165 was just outrageous.
So, you believe like the Pharisees that money is a sign of God’s blessing?
You and Joel Osteen have fun with that buddy!
Derek:
“a pastor,
I understood you. I am sure others arguing with you do too.
I see where you are coming from.
I just don’t see the need for more radio/tv programs. There are plenty here in the US.
I think this is part of the problem sometimes. Very hands off ways of doing things.
That is not he only way to preach the gospel. it is merely the easiest and most monetarily costly.
Maybe, we need to take the harder and cheaper ways. God can use those ways just as mightily as a radio program. Maybe more so, if it is hands on.”
Thanks. I don’t necessarily disagree. And I’m not saying that’s the only way to do it. (We have great outreaches that carry the gospel door to door. We have great outreached that carry the gospel through our food pantry. We also have many shut-in families that write in thanking us for our video and mp3 ministry.) I’m just not willing to stigmatize the preaching of the Word, nor am I willing to mandate another church’s budget line item that is teaching the Word. They aren’t my servant. They are His.
Thanks again… 🙂
I’ll be honest, I haven’t read the article..it’s late and my pillow is calling me. But, the headline caught my attention. This may have already been discussed here. My wounds, although greatly healed still fester up from time to time and I can only read so much about this at a time w/o getting too stirred up and upset. So, I apologize if this is a duplicate post.
http://calvarytraining.org/2014/04/13/first-easter-without-bob-coy-franklin-graham-to-give-message/
I find this incredible on both sides of the argument about the great commission -and as usual you guys either are ignoring what Jesus said or you are just opposed to the words of Jesus. The great commission was to go and make disciples. how, one might ask?? By baptizing people … and then and only then you teach them what it means to follow Christ.
Another thing, the radio people do not go anywhere – they sit and send tapes to radio stations. (I guess today they upload MP3s.)
So what do you say, let’s baptize.
Granted Jesus last instructions was to go unto all the world and preach the good news, baptizing then in the name . . . . However, just because this was the last instructions received does not make it the only instructions he gave:
Matthew 7:
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
He also stated in John that we must be born again, not just say we believe for even the demons “believe.” In John, chapter 3 beginning at verse 15, then continuing on to gain the entire lesson Jesus was teaching:
John Chapter 3: Jesus and Nicodemus
Jesus and Nicodemus
John Chapter 3 : 15
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
We make a huge error by stopping short and making the “great commission” that of only spreading the good news and baptism. Just as we make a huge error when we stop short of just placing an emphasis on John ch. 3:16. There is so much more to the gospel than just lip service and getting people wet. It is part of the gospel—but please do not leave out taking care of the poor, the homeless, the oppressed, the downtrodden, the fatherless, particularly those who are our sisters and brothers, in the faith, for as Jesus has told us, to the least of these you have done it unto Him.
Linda:
Well said. Jesus also said we’ll be judged for how we feed others, give them water, clothe them… He said to let your good deeds be seen that your Father in heaven may be glorified.
He told that to individuals. I don’t see churches being judged there.
It seems to me if the church is taking the power of the gospel for salvation, and discipling believers to maturity, there’ll be a lot more sheep at the judgment– there’ll be a lot more people hearing “well done good and faithful servant”.
I’m not saying that churches shouldn’t have benevolence programs. They should. But if the church gives precedence to the gospel and discipleship, there will be a lot more strong Christians to socially transform the world. If the church gave more energy to the great commission than political activism, there would be a lot more Christians to vote Biblically. Etc… Jesus left us to transform people so that transformed people can transform the world by transforming people by…
My apologies to RiBo for being unavailable tonight.
It’s been a hellish night.
I would make two comments that most will disagree with and that’s ok.
I believe you could shut down every media ministry in the country tomorrow and it wouldn’t affect the Kingdom one iota.
It might actually advance it.
The second thing I would say is that if you want to really torque me off get into spreading this false dichotomy between the “Gospel” and some creation called the “social gospel’.
RiBo nailed it…Jesus’s actions were never just to evangelize for the sake of evangelization…He had compassion…even on those who would reject His message.
Matt 25 is the perfect balance…and the most poorly taught and understood chapter in American conservative Christiandom.
My opinion.
Well I hate to be a fly in anyone’s ointment, but the early evening conversation was about making disciples. After an hour I decided to add the missing ingredient – the words of jesus in how you make disciples = and even Linda said the wording out of order with the preaching before the baptizing. But that is not important – the point is to make disciples and then and only then can they go out and do the work of Christ.
Make the disciple first, then go out and take care of people.
Jesus told us in Acts 1:8 that we “shall be witnesses to Me…” It seems that the instruction is that our behavior should be as His was which was compassionate. This doesn’t take away from making disciples but “shall be witnesses” is different than “go witnessing”
“He told that to individuals. I don’t see churches being judged there.’
What are churches composed of?
The media/radio ministry here in SoCal is an epic adventure in straining gnats and swallowing camels. I’d almost prefer my kids tune into Howard Stern than KWAVE because at least there is not confusion of the Gospel.
covered,
Spoken to his disciples. Those already discipled.
From a front row seat into the belly of the beast, the hypocrisy of what is preached on the radio and how things truly are is literally nauseating.
Neo – good points, both of them.
Bob…
I read your reply. I really don’t like doing the whole “qualifications” thing, but I despise false witnesses due to ignorance and the hope is (like Michael showed) you would say “Oops, I goofed in how I read it” – Not about winning, but about letting false witnesses stand.
To this day I still have a book in my business library “Understanding Financial Statements” – my reference to my insurance years was to say I know how to read financial statements. Securing and evaluating financial statements is a necessity for some of the commercial insurance we used to write (I didn’t answer phones for Flo or the lizard)
My reference to the pastor years should be self-evident as to the relevance in this thread’s discussion. I am quite clear not just on financial statements but on some of the specifics of a church’s financial statements in general (though as I have said repeatedly, with no details on some of the breakdowns here).
Now, the simple fact that you speak of “exchanging short term debt for long term debt” shows you do not understand the main point offered by Michael. I know the church calls all their mortgages “long term debt” but I think we can agree that 5 years (which is the max) is hardly long term. Church loans are written for short periods of time, and the balloon payments are typically refinanced into a new loan.That is the whole issue – those balloons coming due and what terms, if any, they will be refinanced without Coy..
You are bearing a false witness because you do not understand what you are talking about. I even gave you page numbers of the report. They paid off multiple old loans with the new loan, and they paid off more than they newly borrowed. Page 18 shows they have less debt in 2013 than they had in 2012 – by a couple million dollars.
As to the double interest comment I made…you wrote, “The giving total for 2013 was $71,319,217 expense less depreciation (non-cash) $59,178,377 for a total cash flow of $12,140,840. From this number the mortgage payments have to be made.”
Bob, as you deducted the depreciation to get to the 59 million in expenses, you left in the interest expense already paid on the mortgages of 1.74 million (the very line above depreciation). Yet you conclude “the mortgage payments have to be made” from your net 12 million figure. That is an error.
I believe everyone here would acknowledge the likelihood of reduced giving and subsequent financial issues for this church.
And while some here may be critical of how they spent that money, you are the only one who is reading these statements and concluding this church was in financial trouble already (living on borrowed time was your phrase) using smoke and mirrors to keep the doors open this long. Should that not give you pause that maybe you are in error?
As far as benevolence. It is jaw dropping to read from some they were “not doing enough.” The church expensed two million dollars of the 35 million brought in. The year before they expensed almost the same two million on the 33 million brought in. I imagine if we could go back further years we would see similar numbers. Four million in two years off 68 million.
And this does not count the money spent as administration that is being derided which went in part to providing jobs for hundreds of people, nor the administration expenses to fund ministry that helped people beyond the benevolence as was noted earlier.
I really would challenge you all, if you truly think this to be such a horrible percentage of church giving, to make sure you see what your own churches are spending. Not people bringing canned goods in to give to others. But actual dollars hitting the offering plate and going out the door to those in need.
If your little church only has a total of 100K a year in offerings, I trust you will make sure a minimum of 5-6 thousand dollars goes right back out this year. Actually, I trust you will make sure more than that goes out since that figure would only equal the CCFTL and they apparently are too low.
And before we hear about all the expenses that have to be paid when you only have 100K, please recognize that is an indictment on putting other expense priorities ahead of a commitment to the poor – the same charge being tossed around here.
“Hugh,
Your #165 was just outrageous.
So, you believe like the Pharisees that money is a sign of God’s blessing?
You and Joel Osteen have fun with that buddy!”
No Derek I believe like Jesus said to make use of worldly wealth to prepare for ourselves eternal habitations, I was merely pointing out that the devil has attacked this church CCFL because of the potential for good that it had in the community and for the kingdom, and then I contrasted the small churches that the mockers and scoffers come from, that if they are a representation of the type of fruit their church is bearing then I can see why the devil would leave these alone, since they are serving his cause!
Luke 16:9
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
You know, I was just struck this morning that Hugh reminds me of a certain character who was here a couple years back named Who (and then went by some other name that I can’t remember). He would antagonize Alex on his blog, too. In fact, I think he showed up first on Alex’s blog. Even the names sound similar, Hugh and Who. Coincidence? Just wondering.
Youtube – search “Bob Coy on the Tiger Woods incident”
Very interesting
teve,
As for the $2 million given to benevolence, I was not saying yesterday that in and of itself, that is “not enough”. I was troubled however, in how that number compared to media ministry. Now you may be right that we shouldn’t judge based on just these broad overview numbers in the report because we can’t see all the details. If we saw all the details of all the line items, maybe things would look more palatable. It did disturb me though, from the high-level view that it looked like more than twice as much money was given towards media than benevolence. And again, I am not saying there should be no media ministry. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any radio or tv ministry. At the same time, however, there already is a proliferation of Christian radio and tv. Most people in this country can turn on their tv or radio or computer at any time on any day and hear the Word of God preached. Yes, a good bit of the programming may be screwed up teaching, but there also still is plenty of solid teaching available. So at what point in media ministry does it transition from wanting to broadcast the gospel and the Word of God to wanting to broadcast Pastor Bob and CCFTL? That is where I am troubled when there “appears” to be a large amount of money given to media in comparison to benevolence.
Michael, churches are made up of people who are being discipled to do just that. I felt I was pretty clear about my view on that– churches discipling people to live his command. Churches are made up of people, but a church is also an organization with a budget.
And to clarify, our budget this year has 10% of income budgeted to go back out into such ministries. It’s a huge priority for us. I just don’t think you can disparage the Bible/gospel ministries like some in here were doing.
*Steve
Kevin:
“So at what point in media ministry does it transition from wanting to broadcast the gospel and the Word of God to wanting to broadcast Pastor Bob and CCFTL? ”
That was part of my point. Are you the judge of that? Do you give the vision to CCFL?
Steve
Good morning! I get what you are saying now about the double expense, but you are now showing your ignorance of the repayment of the mortgage. The interest expense is just that, interest and does not include the principal portion required to pay off the debt. Principal is a cash flow item, not and expense. I know it is a hard concept for many to understand when paying out hard cash, but it is not considered an expense, only the interest charge is an expense.
So I think we are talking in circles. I did make another error, I forgot to deduct non-cash donations for the total. And you are sill missing the fact the church giving is substantially less than reported out going. They have done the typical manipulation of debt to keep their growth solvent.
They are truly on the edge and bk.
Also do not forget this is not a business, or is it?
Also Steve you need to notice of the first comments was this:
“Why on earth does a church that is bringing in over $40 million in tithes and offerings and over $67 million in total revenues need to borrow money for in the first place?!”
“I wonder if they know how short time is or if they have deceived themselves into thinking they have lots of time…or can handle it internally.”
No they are and were in financial crisis and house of cards built on Bob Coy
Herod built the most marvelous temple ever and God brought it down, why?
Steve
Am I the only writing financial doom and gloom for FFTL? I guess you’re right I’m a total idiot and in error.
Steve
If you haven’t guessed by now I’m the guy you don’t want on the church elder board when the pastor is pushing to borrow money to fund some dreamed up growth project. I have seen the problems first hand these debts have brought to a church after the visionary left.
Here’s how I believe it should be done and I think it’s biblical, if we can’t afford it today or haven’t saved the money to do it then the answer is no, no debt. I’ve even seen the church credit card accounts busted so don’t go there either.
Yep I will never lead a successful church.
a pastor,
No, I’m not the one to ultimately decide how CCFTL should be appropriating towards their media ministry. However, I think I can still be personally troubled when I see something from a church that looks like its feeding into our celebrity culture. Like I had stated in my last post, Christian media is already readily available to the large majority of folk in this country. I am of the opinion that there is not a substantial need for much more, especially if that more is going to take significant money to do so.
but you are now showing your ignorance of the repayment of the mortgage. The interest expense is just that, interest and does not include the principal portion required to pay off the debt. .
————————————————
(sigh) – I know Bob. I said only about your error on the interest. The amount of principal on those loans is also shown – about 280,000 a month (less than half of an average one week offering which is definitely in line with a healthy financial situation)
Kevin, Trust me I am not singling you out. Your comment was quite measured
The problem in this discussion is that the church did not simply get a 35 million dollar check and then decide how to spend it. It took 30 years to get to last year and the reason the church is bringing in that sort of money, in order to give 2 million a year in benevolence, is due to looking at the whole picture of their ministry (which includes the pastor and which is why the future will be challenging, especially in the nearterm).
There is no way to calculate the “return” on the media ministry, at least not from those statements. Just like there is no way to calculate the “return” on the coffee shop. People around here can argue all they want about whether that is what a church is supposed to be like, but at the end of the day 2 million dollars got to be people because the church is what it is. Some guy might make CCFTL his home and tithe $10,000 a year in part because he likes to be able to hang out and fellowship at the coffeeshop and catch the service online when he is out of town on business.
And THAT is why I used the percentage argument. Because that is something all churches can relate too. Are the churches of those complaining making a commitment of a similar percentage to the poor as an expense priority before they pay any other expenses, including the rent – or do they just try to help out with whatever might be leftover after they pay the other expenses the Board finds “necessary”
covered wrote: “a pastor, are you sure that you want to dig in on the premise that BC was making disciples?”
I can say from the many BC people I’ve met, they are not disciples of Jesus Christ. The are worldly, living with their boyfriends/girlfriends, they don’t know the Bible. And they all say, “Bob is so funny!”
I’ve personally met several who sat under Bob at CCFL. “He is so funny” came in way down on their comments about him. “That ministry saved our marriage…” “I learned how to serve…” “CCFL counseled me through giving up alcohol…”
Those generally top the list from the admittedly limited folks I’ve met who worshiped there. I guess in a 20,000 person church, the statistics say you’re more prone to talk to some non-disciples. May be I’m more prone talk to the disciples that have moved and come to our fellowship looking to continue being discipled. What strikes me is that we’re not a big church. I’m not a comedian. We teach a gospel of dying to self and pouring out our lives for Christ. They plug right in and love it. I don’t know. Maybe they were starving for it and are finally getting it. Maybe it’s similar to the diet they got at FtL. Who am I to say? My job is to feed this flock and leave the other flocks to be fed by the people called to do it.
If I spent all of my energy devouring others, I would be neglecting what God has called me to do.
Blessings…
This mired scandal was somebody’s dream
A ministry icon as bad as they seem
A four campus highway, a cross, a job
We’re building a home for the family of Bob
Tempers are rising
The church’s to pay,
Moving dissenters that got in the way,
Prayer blogs and meetings to do their job,
deciding the fate of the family of Bob,
And it’s so hard whatever are we coming to?
Yes it’s so hard with so little facts,
And so much to eschew…
Memories replacing the loves that are lost
Burning our bridges as soon as they’re crossed
Empires built where the Spirit ran –
Time’s running out for the CC plan
So hard,,,
So hard, so hard, so hard, family of man, so hard, family of man, so hard, family of man,so hard, family of man,so hard family of man,,,
a pastor, no need to be defensive. I shared my experiences, which have been many. I know of very many people that perfectly fit the description I’m stating.
And their own pastor was doing all of this for years, in his own life. A double life.
I used to go to the rest room where people would talk about getting their friends “saved” and walking forward with them. I would hear “If they aren’t going forward I am going to drag them up there”!
BC would encourage that by saying to walk up with your friends.
It was like a big show. Sometimes you would see someone walk up with their friend and the friend would be laughing. Not the mourning over their sin, repentant attitude.
Like it was a “cool” thing. People also knew they were being filmed.
There was one guy (I am sure others would remember) would walk forward every single week.
Why didn’t anyone say anything to him?
I guess I am trying to say that I wonder how many are truly saved there.
Just yesterday I spoke with someone who said the person they are currently sleeping with ,(outside of marriage) who attends CCFL “looked up to” BC.
Regarding key man risk: at the risk of being incidentally ironic, it is difficult to get reasonable rates from an insurance company where they can’t diversify their risk by insuring a bunch of uncorrelated people against the same thing. They make their money by taking in premiums, investing the cash, estimating the risk of the pool over some period of time, and setting deductibles and fees high enough to cover costs but not so high as to discourage customers to go elsewhere.
So if they could reasonably get enough churches to take out disqualification insurance on key staff, and they could get good data on disqualification rates, there’s probably an insurance company who would offer disqualification insurance for a fee. The problem being that there’s a conflict of interest if the board who would benefit from the insurance paying off being the same people who would make the decision to disqualify key staff.
This particular conflict of interest constituting a moral hazard. Also, there’s a good chance that churches would not go seeking disqualification insurance unless there was a good chance they would need it (or unless they were required to take it on when making a new hire to qualify for some sort of accountability rating). Insurance types call this adverse selection.
In all honesty this sort of risk should be part of a church’s risk planning anyway. Any key staff member is subject to adverse publicity, accidental death, etc. Any church that has a retirement plan should probably think about having transition plans, capital reserves, etc.
226 – I know who that was and security dealt with him. He no longer attends.
Sorry Andy:
Not meaning to sound defensive. I’m secure in our ministry vision. 🙂
I just wanted to point out that I’ve met several families that appear to have been discipled there. I feel like we’ll have wheat and tares in the church– sheep and goats. And Jesus said only He would be able to separate which is which. Can’t judge a ministry solely on whether there are apparent tares and goats.
Blessings. 🙂
a pastor: “Can’t judge a ministry solely on whether there are apparent tares and goats”
The places I met these people, were in Calvary Chapels in Florida. I believe I can judge that ministry. Maybe judge is the wrong word. I’ll use discern.
Anonymous wrote: “There was one guy (I am sure others would remember) would walk forward every single week. Why didn’t anyone say anything to him?”
That guy will show up on someone’s mental tally of, “what amazing transformation of lives and good fruit coming out of it!!!”.
Looks can be deceiving.
It would be odd for Stephan to be chosen as the next Senior Pastor. He hasn’t preached in ages.
Bob opened up the pulpit a few years back, so any one of them could be chosen as the next one. No one is vying for the job, they are deeply wounded and are still mourning.
It’s likewise ridiculous — maybe you were just being facetious — to think someone from outside CCFL like Skip Heitzig could even be considered for “the job”. No one around here knows who the heck he is unless they are avid ReachFM listeners. The job is not open, someone will be chosen from the current talent pool. They are all loved by the church to varying degrees.
Masses will probably no longer be attracted, but the core congregants will remain and feel a renewed committment to their church. The ride will be rough, and I agree the numbers and finances will go down, but it’ll probably end up a healthier church in the long run — probably at the expense of significant downsizing.
I have never met anyone who has gone to Coy’s church – or at least it has not come up in conversation.
Some of you guys have weird conversations – in the restrooms, talking to each other about who is sleeping with whom.
Aside from Rapture theology (not brought up for conversation) the worst thing that comes out of CC (and other evangelical groups) is Decision theology. “If only I can coerce that guy or gal to go up from and be saved.”
Why do people want to pressure people into a ‘decision’ or to go up front? – because to them, that is how they were saved … by their own decision.
From the Bob Coy on Tiger Woods video:
“I’m praying for a happy ending…” –Bob Coy
Well, apparently God answered that prayer! LOL
I will pistol whip the next guy on here who says “blessings”
a pastor said @159: “And, who am I to say if another Bible program was needed. CCFL is not my servant, so who am I to judge the vision their Master gave them?”
_____________________________________________________________________
Who is their Master in your statement above. Is it Boy Coy? Is it God? Is it Money? Or is it something else? If we are not to judge the vision, can you at least tell me who their Master is?
RiBo wrote: “I will pistol whip the next guy on here who says “blessings”
Fine.
Curses.
MLD
BC would give an invitation. then he would say “I know some of you are sitting there…your heart is pounding, etc” I was one of those who sat there in deep prayer praying for that person.
Sometimes he made 3 calls and each time more would come up.
Looking back now I really don’t know how many made “emotional” decisions , rather than their hearts being pierced by the gospel.
I guess you could say (as others have said there) that it doesn’t matter how and why they come forward, they “made a DECISION”.
I am still on the fence about all this.
It seems a bit coerced. It always seemed that by the Holy Spirit he knew there were more.
I know God could have used him regardless of whether he was walking the walk.
The scriptures are clear that Paul knew this as well.
By the way MLD, I have been reading your posts for at least 6 years and I prefer you speaking of how men ought to love their wives as opposed to Baptism and Communion 😉
I hope God affords you the opportunity to be a mentor for the young men. I think you can disciple them in a really profound way based on what you have been sharing in that regard.
Anonymous – thank you. I have done my discipling with my boys and as a grandfather, will follow that vocation with my 2 grandsons. But I always felt inadequate – like when Ted Williams managed the Washington Senators in the late 60s early 70s.
The world’s best hitter, and he could not teach others to hit. Oh well, I will plug along. 🙂
Oh, also, on this day in the year of our Lord 30 (?) Jesus said “This is my body and this is my blood.” 😉
BTW, someone claiming to be a non-member member of CCFTL said on my blog that Chet finally confirmed the p0rn and affairs of Coy in a church meeting/service.
‘non-member member’ 🙂
RiBo:
God bless you. May the blessings of the Lord be upon you.
“Just yesterday I spoke with someone who said the person they are currently sleeping with ,(outside of marriage) who attends CCFL “looked up to” BC.”
That just goes to show how many unchurched people, living in sin this church was reaching!
You sound like those who would have condemned the Samaritan woman and Jesus for talking to her, “how can this woman who has had five husbands and is living with a guy be interested in the things of God, there’s no way she’s a true seeker!”
How many this church was almost reaching, you mean.
Having been a corporate banker, I can tell you it is somewhat unusual that a bank made a loan in the first place, but short balloons are the name of the game. Banks don’t like to make these loans due to negative publicity in the event of default. Sometimes churches have separate assets, that may have been given to the church that they can use as additional collateral, or better yet, sell to pay down the loan. Banks look at debt service, based upon historical cash flow, and any building fund pledges. Unfortunately, many churches that lose a name pastor can expect 20-30% fallout in attendees and offerings. This church as many options for use of its funds. If debt becomes an issue and priority, the church has the latitude to give less other places, and use more for bank debt.