Open Blogging
It’s all yours for the weekend.
I’m out of the area until next week and will only be checking in intermittently.
Big news today though…Driscoll has been removed from Acts 29 and they are calling for his resignation.
It’s all yours for the weekend.
I’m out of the area until next week and will only be checking in intermittently.
Big news today though…Driscoll has been removed from Acts 29 and they are calling for his resignation.
Have a great weekend Michael.
Yes Michael, take a break.
Acts 29…..wow… good call.
Get some rest (I hope) and be refreshed!
Now if only CC would act on Alex’s story…
Kudos to Acts 29! Now if only SGM….. nevermind…
Guitar man’s number 4…..that is exactly what I was thinking!
“Over the past three years, our board and network have been the recipients of countless shots and dozens of fires directly linked to you and what we consider ungodly and disqualifying behavior. We have both publicly and internally tried to support and give you the benefit of the doubt, even when multiple pastors in our network confirmed this behavior.
In response, we leaned on the Mars Hill Board of Advisors & Accountability to take the lead in dealing with this matter. But we no longer believe the BoAA is able to execute the plan of reconciliation originally laid out. Ample time has been given for repentance, change, and restitution, with none forthcoming. We now have to take another course of action.”
Huh.
Thinking out loud….
Does anyone else remember seeing or hearing about a “plan of reconciliation” that was laid out? Sounds like it might have come from Acts 29 and was pointed toward MHBoAA.
And this would have been after MD’s behavior was confirmed by pastors in the Acts 29 network. (Why did it take so long?)
Three years…countless shots….dozens of fires. I would like to compare their list with a list from say, Wenatchee.
“Ample time” – makes me wonder how long ago this plan of reconciliation has been in the works?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/zhoag/2014/08/08/breaking-acts-29-removes-mark-driscoll-and-mars-hill-church-from-network-asks-driscoll-to-step-down/
Oops I see you already have this. I was mobile and did not see it.
http://www.wfla.com/story/26213876/family-says-church-canceled-funeral-because-son-was-gay
Would be interested to read the comments from the community here…especially from any of the pastors or church leaders.
100% wrong. The pastor missed a chance to preach Jesus to a mixed multitude.
Steve,
I’ve been to plenty of funerals in churches for unbelievers. This is sin ranking.
Agree 100% with MLD and Jim. Plus, IMO the pastor is a coward, hiding behind fake piety.
This is where I would love to know the church’s side. I know what I ask and require when someone wants me to officiate a funeral, especially if they want it done in our church sanctuary.
Bottom line – If a pastor and church have certain standards, then you better perform your due diligence before letting your yes be yes.
Also note, the church’s pastor was not going to officiate the service. The deceased Mom’s pastor was going to do the service, they just needed a bigger sanctuary
“Based on our preaching of the scripture, we would have been in error to allow the service in our church,” Jenkins said. “I’m not trying to condemn anyone’s lifestyle, but at the same time, I am a man of God, and I have to stand up for my principles.”
What in scripture would indicate that it is error to hold a funeral for a nonbeliever or gay person at a church?
Steve, in your #14 you refer to “our church sanctuary” and “church have certain standards.” Do you see a biblical command not to allow the church to hold a funeral for a gay person?
Jean, a funeral is about as sacred a ministry as any pastor has. I officiated one today as a matter of fact. MLD mentioned an “opportunity” to preach the gospel to a mixed multitude but in my experience EVERY funeral, even for the most devout, is attended by a mixed multitude and is such an opportunity.
We don’t lease our facility (and the story is silent as to whether this was a lease or the granting of a favor to the family). We open our church to those looking for a place if there is even the slightest connection to our church (and there usually is or they would not ask) – however, only if I or one of our other pastors is also asked to conduct the service.
And when we do not know the people, we spend some time talking to the family. So it is beyond me that this church could have taken those basic steps and not known about the gay marriage of the deceased.
Steve, if the reason for posting the article was merely your desire to discuss procedure and good church order, then fine. I don’t disagree with anything in your #17. However, because you posted an article that by its nature raised the issue of the propriety of conducting a funeral for a gay person in a church, I assumed you wanted to discuss the values of the church which denied access to that family. If that was not your intent then fine.
That is so sickening and shameful
Since funerals are being discussed. I’ve run into the attitude that pretty much all the funeral should be is an evangelistic outreach while the more attention spent on the deceased is almost seen as a waste of time.
I am all for sharing the hope that we have as part of the service while at the same time honoring and remembering the person who just died. One pastor did a service wearing a mickey mouse tie which I found shameful.
“Bottom line – If a pastor and church have certain standards, then you better perform your due diligence before letting your yes be yes.”
My late mother, a Roman Catholic, was denied a “church” funeral due to her lack of attendance at her parish down the street, the one where she and my father were the 2nd couple married, where my mom’s father had donated to fund the marble for the altar.
We decided to do an end run around everything and have a series of godly women and men “officiate”, share from their hearts at the funeral home.
We knew the deep abiding presence of God, we sang, we cried, we hugged, and we acknowledged that mom was forever with Jesus.
God was/is glorified and the RCC saved face and kept their standards, had their way, and we & Jesus did too.
Jean..I had no preplanned agenda. 🙂 .
The church actually has opened itself up to a lawsuit – and that is one consequence of treating the sanctuary like a Moose Lodge to rent out as needed (if in fact that is what happened). The funny thing is the lawsuit would likely win based on violation of contract and the homosexual acceptance issue would be irrelevant.
If we are to speak the truth in love (and we are) then the time to do so is when meeting with the family the first time and then encouraging them to find another church – Like I said, I would love to hear the church’s side of this. Was NOTHING asked about the deceased. Did they not talk with the “husband”….If there is a lawsuit, I guess we will hear that side….But you sure can’t violate your word (or contract) 24 hours before the service. The pastor should have told his angry members that called about it that a mistake was made but they needed to honor their word and would make changes to their procedures so that it did not happen again.
I have never done a funeral where there is a surviving spouse without mentioning that spouse, and thus I could not do a funeral in good conscience if the family wanted a celebration of the gay marriage.
That is of course far different than for example, Jim’s point at #12 – doing a funeral for someone who was active in homosexual sin and/or an unbeliever.
G, Thanks for that testimony.
Two questions that immediately come to mind are:
1) Is there anything inherently “sacred” in a building? I thought the Temple was destroyed in 70 C.E.
2) Is the funeral primarily for the deceased or the ones wishing to remember the deceased? I honestly don’t know the theology on this one.
Which is the bigger issue – sin or that he may not have been a member of the church?
If it is the homosexual sin, I wonder if a pastor would object to a funeral under these circumstance.
1.) 25 yr member of the church
2.) Killed by police answering a domestic disturbance as the guy was beating his wife and about to stab her with a knife.
3.) During the investigation it turns out that this 25 yr member has been beating his wife for the entire 30 yrs of their marriage.
Does he get the church funerals?
MLD – How do you all handle funeral requests when it comes to using the church. Is that 100% in the pastor’s discretion or is that one of the issues that your board has the final say?
And would you share how you handle requests from non members, or ex-members, or when the deceased is a relative to some degree of a member etc.
Do you all have a policy or is each request an ad hoc basis….thanks.
I will say that I am for very “close relationship” to use the church for weddings and funerals. I always love the people who want nothing to do with church until they get married or buried.
I have no problem with my pastor going outside the church to do a funeral – several get done at the retirement home or village where many of our members are housebound the past several years or they are graveside service only.
All people are still sinners (I don’t even need to get into my 100% justified / 100% sinner). I have preached 2 funerals – both were strong Christians and both were rascals. But I went on each occasion and got their Bibles and I preached from what they had marked and highlighted on their own pages.
I found verses marked on the exclusivity of Christ – the fact that Jesus was the only way to heaven and I told people that is the message that the deceased would have wanted preached to them.
But because everyone knew they were also rascals, I found verses they had marked on the forgiveness of sin, the trustworthiness of Christ of overcome their sin and their righteousness at that very moment in the presence of God.
What do you say about the non member you don’t know? – what do you say about the person living in open sin? I guess you preach what you preach about the believer – that death is the last enemy and that death wins.
Ateve,
My #26 was not an answer to your #25 – they just happened to pass each other.
I guess dying and being born are similar in one respect. Some deny the dead a proper funeral. Others deny the new born a baptism.
Steve,
I don’t think that we rent out the sanctuary to anyone for anything .. but I need to check.
We do have an associate membership that is available to adults who have not attained or maintained the requirements of communicant membership. So, if they have been on the fringes, perhaps just barely a blip on our radar and they “come home” so to speak, even if just for wedding, baptism, burial, counseling or even further instruction in the Christian faith – we will work with them.
Andrew – my almost a Lutheran friend – where have you been hiding?
I took a break to do some career studying. just stopping by to see whats going on now.
Well, study hard but don’t be a stranger – we don’t have enough east coast input.
Ok, I’m really tired though. So I will say good night for now.
MLD, if a member comes to your church about using the sanctuary (and the pastor) for a funeral of a relative that had no connection with your church, do you all say yes?
A pastor in the coment secdtion said it well:
“This is why people don’t go to church”
Unbelivably tacky to first offer to hold the funeral and then cancel it later on.
I say the church should’ve sucked it up and said to hell with our precious principles. They had a chance to show the love of Jesus. They blew it.
Ann Coulter wrote a very vile article about the Doctors who went to africa to help with the Ebola outbreak. It was extremely cruel. I understand that is how she makes money and that alone justifies what she does but I found it very heartless.
I’m in agreement with Steve and MLD. If a church starts renting out its facility to others, w/o their leadership in charge and setting guidelines, then they are opening themselves up to all sorts or opportunities for conflict.
I find that strange. if a church as an opportunity to generate revenue should they not do all the can to leverage that. Maintaining and increasing the revenue stream should the primaray focus of the Elders / Pastors.
No one ever chooses to be born, but all choose to whom they will die for.
My solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
http://derekthornton71.blogspot.com/2014/08/my-solution-to-israelipalestinian.html
My solution bypasses the historical problems and gets right to the core problem.
If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.
~George S. Patton
Also, I edited my post as I had in mind a solution to the Gaza problem.
A letter to my Congressmen about Iraq, ISIS and the Kurds.
http://derekthornton71.blogspot.com/2014/08/letter-to-my-congressmen-about-iraq-and.html
Thank you Derek. Well done
“No one ever chooses to be born, but all choose to whom they will die for”
___________________________________________________________
I agree with the first part but the second part sounds a little overly zealous with a martyr complex. Just my first impression.
If you’re a Beatles fan, please keep reading.
I love this song, especially during weeks like this last one when I’m tempted to look back to happier times because I can’t make sense of the present times. If you know the melody, hum it out loud as you read the lyrics or, better yet, sing the song out loud. If this song brings someone special to mind, give him/her a hug or telephone call and say “I love you.”
“There are places I remember all my life
Though some have changed
Some forever, not for better
Some have gone and some remain
All these places have their moments
Of lovers and friends I still can recall
Some are dead and some are living
In my life I loved them all
And with all these friends and lovers
There is no one compares with you
And these mem’ries lose their meaning
When I think of love as something new
And I know I’ll never lose affection
For people and things that went before
I know I’ll often stop and think about them
In my life I loved you more
And I know I’ll never lose affection
For people and things that went before
I know I’ll often stop and think about them
In my life I loved you more
In my life I loved you more”
McCartney and Lennon, “In My Life”
Steve,
“MLD, if a member comes to your church about using the sanctuary (and the pastor) for a funeral of a relative that had no connection with your church, do you all say yes?”
Again, that is one to the exact specific of the question I do not know. But I would say if it involved a member doing the asking, I would assume we would work something out – it’s not like we want to be exclusive at all – but we may object to be used as the town undertaker.
Who today outside of being a Lutheran member would want a Lutheran funeral – we don’t do those jazzed up “Life Celebration” services with the videos etc. A Lutheran funeral is just that – “Death as the last enemy has struck.”
Kurdish plea for weapons may finally be heard.
http://news.yahoo.com/kurdish-pleas-weapons-may-finally-heard-040436779.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory
Probably a good time to mention that I have never refused a funeral request. I’m sure our secretary has taken calls from people going through the phonebook looking for a place and has told them, no. But whenever there is any sort of connection at all to our church with someone at the family, even if not the deceased, I seek to accommodate whenever asked.
And Brian, I get the revenue schtick, but surely you don’t think that applies to churches like the one MLD or I (or most any one else here) are leading.
We don’t charge for the place, and I certainly don’t charge for myself. In fact, we often have helped with the final expenses when it was someone poor from our church family God is not going to let us go bankrupt because we have to run the air conditioning a couple hours more than usual, and we are blessed with plenty of servants to assist with clean-up etc.
Andrew
I guess it depends on one’s position on choice and sovereignty.
But my response was really based on this statement:
“I guess dying and being born are similar in one respect. Some deny the dead a proper funeral. Others deny the new born a baptism.”
I for one don’t agree with the doctrine of infant baptism. Of course you could mean those who are “born again” or “new creation” and referring to believers baptism.
I’m sure you got the reference anyway.
I can assure brian that my church has no revenue line in our budget for renting out rooms. We do on occasion allow people to use space. We have an AA group that meets weekly in one of our rooms, and has for years at no charge.
Derek,
Thank you for the Gaza/Israel post. I had no idea Israel and Egypt were currently so chummy, as I tend to ignore international affairs these days.
Two questions-
Has Israel removed all settlements from the disputed territory?
Would Egypt want Gaza?
Dear Michael,
I do not think I have ever said or suggested that I have met George Bryson. I know what he looks like the same you do. I have seen pictures of him with his cowboy hat in Russia. I was even told that the reason the picture looks photo shopped is because it was. The person standing with him in the picture was taken, as was one of many who took a picture with him, in Russia. In this case the person had applied for a job at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and George thought this picture might jeopardize his chances of employment there and he really needed a job. Chuck was interested in hiring him but the person who usually did the hiring was hiring people to work for him but not for Chuck. I know this and have had some interesting conversations with George, as have others who read his Stay the Course Emails. But we have never met. As others have, I have also read what Chuck wrote and am convinced these letters to George from Chuck are authentic and reflect how Chuck really felt about these Stay the Course email articles, what was contained and conveyed in them, as George would say. All that being said, I would like to ask your readers if anyone, friend or foe, believed that:
“Never at any time has George Bryson been authorized to associate churches with Calvary Chapel.”
As you may recall, this is what Joe Focht said in the letter that served notice to 1,600 Calvary Chapel pastors; that if they work or associate with George they will need to change their name (if it was Calvary) and dissociate with Calvary. I know that as time goes by, people forget or lose interest in such matters.
With a little help I was able to confirm that the CCA Council member representing Russia for the CCA council, planted nine churches with George (in Russia alone) and speaks highly of his time working with George in Russia and elsewhere. Jack Hibbs also worked with George in multiple cities planting multiple churches. Together they associated these churches with Calvary Chapel. Altogether 14 CCA council members, relied on George or he relied on them to help in the Calvary Chapel Church Planting process, including Brian Brodersen, Don McClure and Joe Focht. I confess that I cheated a little. All of this is documented in Calvary magazine, which was born while Tom was on a mission with George in Russia. Is it even possible that these CCA council men believe what Joe said? Joe said he was speaking for all of them. Is it possible that Joe believes what he said. Or does the truth even matter?
Derek,
Word on the street is that Egypt can’t stand the Palestinians.
One big hiccup in your plan, methinks.
And they have plenty of their own problems right now.
Jim,
I believe no settlements in Gaza.
I think if the right enticements were offered, it is possible.
I think it should be worked out by the states in the area, with little US involvement.
Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas are two branches of the same tree, so Israel’s enemy is Egypt’s enemy.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/08/08/9-Aug-14-World-View-Hamas-is-at-war-with-Egypt-more-than-Israel
There is bad blood there, but I think it is mainly Hamas vs. Egypt and not Palestinians vs. Egypt. I think the possibility of Egypt being able to win over Palestinians and defeat Hamas stands a much better chance than Israel doing this.
___________________
I think it is in the interests of all legitimate states in the Middle East to band together and find solutions to the problems of all the non-state actors in the region.
Nothing but turmoil has come from giving them aid and comfort.
JTK,
Like I said the right apple needs to be presented. Plus, I think they hate Hamas more than Palestinians.
So, present some solutions. No one ever solved anything by seeing all the ways things can’t be fixed.
This insistence that it is too complex does nothing, but cause paralysis.
Let me say one thing.
The ISIS threat right now is far bigger than the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict.
ISIS threatens Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq.
Whereas, Israel is always accused of genocide unjustly, ISIS is committing genocide right now.
The states in the region need to band together to help put down all these independent operators like ISIS for their own good and the good of their people.
I find that strange. if a church as an opportunity to generate revenue should they not do all the can to leverage that. Maintaining and increasing the revenue stream should the primaray focus of the Elders / Pastors.<<<
Possibly you are being sarcastic.
Possibly you have never been part of a real Church.
Derek,
Would love to see our foreign policy reflect your #58. “We’re out-time for leaders in the region to step up”. Of course, we aren’t really out.
Derek’s 58. Yes! Well said.
Derek, check out ISIS in Belgium right now…very serious times indeed.
I have said for years that the Middle East problem is a European Union problem before it’s our problem. Whatever issues were to come out of it would affect the EU first. Missiles with range to European capitals before US. The ease of illegal immigration to Europe and throughout without having to cross an ocean.
We should be out – let France, Germany, Italy etc work on protecting themselves – let them carry the financial on human weight.
Perhaps the unintended consequence of us going in and bailing Europe out of WW2 is that we have made the European Union and bunch of wimps – time for them to man up.
MLD, it is easy to have a socialist welfare state when they can count on the USA for their military defense budget. Of course, the US has both so we just run it up on the Chinese credit card.
I realize we are no longer on the Acts29/Mark Driscoll topic, but I can’t help but reflect on how Dave Bruskas, now executive elder at Mars Hill, sold out his church in ABQ for Mars Hill affiliation. It was a bad move for the church, but I believe he thought it was good for him….
fme2, the history of how and when that happened would be interesting to learn more about. As in what information at the county level can be discovered about that history, if possible.
I don’t know this Dave Bruskas but I am sure that he was lied to about what he would get for his Mars Hill buck – but by the same token, he put his own congregants last … which makes him just another weekly winner of the independent pastor loser award.
I am playing hooky from church today – haven’t missed a Sunday since December. Gave my class away this week to our minister of education and I am taking my wife to the beach for breakfast. Shrimp & crab benedict and Bloody Marys.
Was suppose to have the whole day free, but somehow I have 2 of the grandkids coming over to spend the afternoon – o well, I can show them my world famous Cannon Ball in the pool.
MLD,
“Shrimp & crab benedict”
Now I’m feeling covetous 🙂
WTH…Dave Bruskas founded City on a Hill in Albuquerque, an offshoot of a Cumberland Presbyterian Church in the same town. It’s mission was to reach out to university area folks. At some point, perhaps around 2007, it became affiliated with Acts29. About June of 2009, Dave, working through his board, excitedly announced that City on a Hill would become a Mars Hill satellite church, the first of its kind out of Washington State. He described how the church would benefit from Mars Hill dollars, teaching, and influence. There would still be campus pastors, but Mark’s teaching was to be the fare each Sunday.
Familiar with Mark Driscoll’s reputation, we objected to the affiliation and planned video stream of Mark’s teachings weekly into the church. My husband’s objection was met with anger from Dave. We left. Dave’s role was to be an overseer and church planter of other Acts 29 churches regionally. At some point, he and his family moved to Washington, where his actions were rewarded with a senior elder position at Mars Hill. Dave’s offering of City on a Hill was not good for that church (it subsequently moved from its university location, and under reached part of the city into a more affluent area of town and began aggressively reaching out to young families, mostly by recruiting them from other churches), but the move cemented Dave’s career.
fme2, thanks. Out of curiosity what was the address of the university location? Being a Seattleite who grew up in the PNW finding things about about WA and OR locations has been pretty simple but NM and other sites have been less easy to find history for.
@WenatcheeTheHatchet, the original address of City on A Hill: 3013 Central Ave NE, Albuquerque, NM 87106. Where they are now: 4700 San Mateo Blvd NE, Albuquerque, NM 87109.
Seeing what ISIS is doing in Iraq makes one realize why the imprecatory psalms were written. There are people that evil in the world.
Derek, you had better watch out. I don’t remember which group or what context but I said something about them not being worth the time of day or a cup of spit and all I got back was that I was unkind and that these too were people who Jesus died for and all that other baloney.
So Derek how can you say that about God’s children (ISIS)? 😉
Bruskas’ move may have been facilitated in part by fear for the safety of his family. He had some violent threats and was also a victim of arson. I would have said later to the ABQ ghetto too……..
I have never bought the explanation that the imprecatory psalms were useless today.
They are there for a reason.
I think ISIS is one of those reasons.
Guess, I will have to be counter to group think on this one. 😉
See my #41.
I am against adding one cent to the U.S. national debt by providing weapons or military support against ISIS in Iraq. So either Iraq and the Kurds pay us for 100% of our costs or Congress should impose a ISIS counter terror tax on the American people. Otherwise, let someone else battle ISIS.
Fine, then I guess prayer for the Christians will have to be enough for people like Jean.
As for me, I am all for supporting the Kurds with weapons and equipment.
Especially when we were the ones who armed ISIS.
#78,
“Fine, then I guess prayer for the Christians will have to be enough for people like Jean.”
Who said that? Not me? I would evacuate those people in partnership with our allies.
The more I hear it, the more I am convinced of the two kingdoms doctrine by MLD and the more I become convinced that letting Christians try to run a government like it is a Christian a bad idea.
#80, It is the Christian influence in our government historically which is responsible for the U.S. providing more humanitarian aid internationally in times of crisis than any other country, and I’m thankful for that.
Regarding my #77, the U.S. has approximately $17 Trillion in debt. We can’t keep funding every war around the world on additional debt and maintain our superpower status. Look what’s going on in Asia with China, in Eastern Europe with Russia, we’re still in Afghanistan, we have operations in Yemen and the Persian Gulf, Africa, etc. At some point, and I believe it’s now, other countries have to step up.
Well, then, be thankful for that and pray for those Christians in Iraq.
As for me, I prefer a more direct approach in addition to prayer.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2014/08/icing-isis-different-solutions-for.html
I don’t let it worry me as much as this guy does, but I support his conclusions.
http://youtu.be/xJrptikLjq8 I found this interesting it is a discussion between James white and Pastor Anderson and its about King Hames onlyism
Robin Williams has passed away at 63 it appears he committed suicide. See Variety.com
O, a bunch of people probably killed themselves today.
Well, at least it looks like the govt. is taking the approach I think is right.
If they had listened to people and stayed out of Syria and not supplied arms to ISIS while it was there, then it is possible that Christians, Yezidis and countless others would not be being slaughtered now.
Democrats and Republicans both are responsible for screwing up what the US military took years to achieve there.
How hard was it to understand not to supply arms and equipment to terrorist organizations?
I was against that from the minute I heard it. It was a no brainer.
Obviously, very hard for Obama and McCain though.
Like I said, at least it looks like the govt. is taking the approach I think is right for a change.
Wonder if guilt plays a part.
http://rare.us/story/if-john-mccain-and-lindsey-graham-are-so-worried-about-isis-why-did-they-want-to-arm-them/
They ought to feel guilty and try to at least help with arms and equipments.
Pacifism doesn’t work, but neither does stupid foreign policy of arming the same people you have been fighting for years.
And if I hear one more story blaming this on Bush and never mentioning the fact that Obama had a hand in arming ISIS, I think i will throw up.
87,
And now we’re helping the governments of Syria and Iran and the enemy of our NATO partner, Turkey. Ironic.
88,
Bush’s fraudulent invasion of Iraq started the whole ball rolling, and only God knows where it will stop.
Here’s hoping Michael Newnham is OK … I have not heard anything.
I am thankful to read from the fme2 posting about the resistance to surrendering the Abq church to MD. I have often wondered. I still have no reason to doubt the good will of Dave B.
It is a curious thing that Acts29 put MD ‘off the bus, under the bus.’
“O, a bunch of people probably killed themselves today.”
Touching.
#92
Remind me to never join a Lutheran chuch
Laura, thanks.
BD a former member I’ve known for a while told me he met with Bruskas during the 2012 call for reconciliation and that Bruskas seemed like a really nice guy and that they just differed on the question of MD’s fitness for ministry, with the former member saying “no” and Bruskas believing “yes”.
Derek, I’m a bit on the fence about two-kingdom. Mileage may vary depending on what eschatological approach is being used. For instance, it would seem the potential applications of two-kingdom theology could differ drastically depending on what one’s millenarian views are. postmillennialism was popular in the US for a while and wedding two-kingdom theology to that eschatology, well, maybe we kinda saw the historic results of that mixture in the Civil War and annexing Indian territories. On the other hand, the Russian Orthodox church was pretty kind to American Indians and did nasty, nasty stuff to Poles and people in the Baltic regions (a number of those states are, last I heard ,officially completely secular states).
Brian-
I’ve felt stunned since I heard.
Usually I am not that affected by celebrity deaths, but this one was so shocking for some reason.
It just felt like another hoax, and I was really sad to find out it wasn’t.
Such a sad loss.
Because he felt so alive, that is true with folks that deal with manic depression. I have know way of knowing that is a given with Mr. Williams. But I have stayed up many nights with folks that struggle with manic depression trying to figure out why they should still be alive. My point mental health awareness is a critical key to successful interventions, I E lives saved.
In the institution I remember spending most of night shift I E PM 3-100 trying to convince one young lady that the “boy” did not cut off her head. We sat in front of the mirror, I was praying secondly, but the “boy” had taken her head away. Eventually I talked her down, this lady could do some real self injurious behavior. Prayer, to a person never had any effect in the moment, but it had a long term effect. I was able to touch a few lives for a few moments of sanity. I never knew what I should do with that. I still dont. It just kills me to see a parent loose kid my parents lost two, granted we all have it coming from the judgement of a Holy God but all that claptrap means nothing what so ever when really dealing with it.
Personally I think one healthy standpoint among Christians Grow up. I think that would very helpful. I am sad he died, I am much more sad that Braxton died, I dont think Jd Hall had any real meaningful input into his actions, I think the young man had some real mental health issues. This is a chance to deal with those outside the apologetic crap. Be adults and deal with it, maybe another young person could be saved. Thats my opinion.
Wenatchee
Sometimes I get the feeling when doctrines, like the “two kingdom,” are discovered what really is going on is this; someone is trying to answer a question of observed injustice. What I also find is some will use such doctrines as an excuse for their personal ungodly behavior.
Yes there is the kingdom of this world and that of God, we are told to pray for the later, but if we expect one to exist in the present and the other only in the future then I would say we are possibly missing the later.
BTW, good question about Michael. Praying he is at peace somewhere and not in the same condition as Mork.
Brian, yeah he did feel alive.
And funny. when everything in the world is going to shit, his outrageouness always made me laugh.
“Brian, yeah he did feel ” That is an affront to the evangelical religion as practiced in the US, feeling is not an option one does not do that. I try to repent of feeling on a daily basis especially where grief is spoken of, I true follower of Jesus does not grieve ever no matter what. I get that. One overcomes, one deals with and and one moves on always. I dont get it but it is what it is.
Bob & Wenatchee
“Yes there is the kingdom of this world and that of God…”
I think you may be confused as to what is the doctrine of the 2 kingdoms – it is NOT ‘there is a kingdom of this world and a kingdom of God.’ Both kingdoms, that of The Church and that of civil society (government) are both God’s kingdoms – God rules perfectly in each kingdom for a different purpose.
A wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_the_two_kingdoms
101,
“God rules perfectly in each kingdom for a different purpose.”
MLD,
Does that quote push the “2 kingdoms” too far? I understand the secular kingdom in the is in Rom 8 appointed by God, but where does one get the idea that God rules that kingdom perfectly? If that were the case, there would never be a reason/justification/duty to disobey an authority of that kingdom, and we wouldn’t need to pray “your will be done, on earth….”
The 2 kingdoms was formulated before the advent of democratic forms of government, such as our republic. I wonder how the 2 kingdoms doctrine holds up in light of this innovation, where citizens have voting input into their elected representatives.
This is one of those doctrines, with potentially profound implications, which is actually founded on very lite textual backing. One can’t help but ask the question: Why didn’t the Bible teach 2 kingdoms more clearly, since it is evidently so important?
A skeptic might answer that 2 kingdoms was formulated to try and explain the radical departure of Jesus’ teachings from God depicted in the OT, and/or why living under the teachings of Jesus is so difficult. Here, one hears echoes of Luther’s battles with himself and Rome.
The most troubling aspect of 2 kingdoms is the way it has been used by Christians historically to justify evil committed by their own governments. If feels like a bit of a shell game: If I can’t do it, my government can.
Maybe a 2 kingdoms doctrine can be teased out of the Bible, but at this point I’m not sold.
Jean,
First my reply was that I was getting especially from Bob an inkling that his 2 kingdoms were the kingdom of God vs the kingdom of the powers of the air.
In short the 2 kingdoms says that God works through the church for one main objective – to forgive sin. On the other hand, God works through civil society to keep peace so that Christians can carry out their vocations – to serve their neighbor.
It’s odd that you would think that a political system (democracy) and my vote would take the place of God’s will in society.
“but where does one get the idea that God rules that kingdom perfectly?” It’s an assumption I make since God is perfect and I have a hard time with “godly mistakes”
MLD #103,
“It’s odd that you would think that a political system (democracy) and my vote would take the place of God’s will in society.” My thought is not that my vote would take the place of God’s will in society, but that Christian votes would be instruments through which God’s will would be made manifest in society.
“‘but where does one get the idea that God rules that kingdom perfectly?’ It’s an assumption I make since God is perfect and I have a hard time with “godly mistakes.’” If God rules the secular kingdom perfectly, then (i) under what rationale can a citizen ever disobey his/her government? and (ii) how do we account for the governments like the Nazis of the 20th Century?
Jean, are you concluding that God does NOT rule this world…or that His rule is imperfect. Or maybe some 3rd option?
God’s perfect rule according to His will is not to be equated to sinless perfection on the part of His creation….God was ruling perfectly when the most unjust act of human history was carried out by wicked men – namely the crucifixion of Christ.
Jean,
“under what rationale can a citizen ever disobey his/her government? and (ii) how do we account for the governments like the Nazis of the 20th Century?”
Man is not perfect – God has laid out the rules for the Christian – when appropriate disobey – but live by the consequences.
As to Christian influence, this has nothing to do with god’s will from ruling in the civil kingdom – the civil kingdom can do perfectly well whether Christians are involved or not. Supply me with water so I can grow my crops, build me roads so I can deliver my goods to market, have a law enforcement system so that highwaymen do not beat and rob me on the way to market, and have some fair system of trade once my product is at market.
My vocation? To bake the morning bagel so my neighbor can have breakfast on his way to fulfill his vocation – to make good quality shoes so that my neighbor can work to fulfill his vocation of serving his neighbor.
God rules there in our society – what else do you want him to do. None of the things I mentioned requires Christian influence at all.,
Steve 105,
The only thing I would like to conclude is what it means to say that God’s rule is “perfect”? We don’t experience a world ruled with perfection. It feels more like a world that has been subjected to futility (Rom 8:20).
So, where is the “perfection” in the rule?
And how does that understanding of perfect rule work within the 2 kingdoms doctrine?
My whole line of inquiry is regarding the 2 kingdoms doctrine. I am not advocating deism. What also might be at issue is how God exercises sovereignty over the world, but that is not my primary line of inquiry. However, if you have thoughts on that, I would like to hear them.
Jean,
Do you have an issue if the comment were “God’s rule is perfect in the kingdom of the Church”?
#108,
MLD, I don’t know. Some of the reading I’ve done on 2 kingdoms have Luther placing the Church in the earthly/fleshly kingdom along with secular government as compared with the Kingdom of God, which is purely spiritual. The rationale for the church being part of the earthly/fleshly kingdom is that is governed through sinful humans, where as the spiritual kingdom is wholly between the believer and Christ.
Your description of 2 kingdoms appears to place the church in the category of the spiritual kingdom. This is somewhat complicated because I think even 2 kingdom scholars are not in total agreement as to what the doctrine means in every respect, and I understand that it was pieced together to a certain extent after Luther’s death from a variety of Luther’s writings and speaking because he himself never coined it as a self contained doctrine.
That being said, if I had to answer your question in #108, I would have to say “no” in the sense that as long as that rule is mediated by sinful humans, the church will always have a certain degree of corruption within it. I think history affirms that.
However, and this is where I thought you might have been going in your #106, if you use “rule” as a noun (instead of a verb) and you want to say that God’s rules are perfect, then I can affirm that. Is that what you are saying?
Jean,
I guess that’s what makes Lutherans distinct – we see God in control. The doctrine of a God who has lost control or stands on the outside while man mediates is foreign to us.
The matter revolves around this – is there both a kingdom on the civil realm that God works with all people to provide order and another kingdom of his church, which is for a select people for a narrow purpose.
Some believe God just operates in the Church and you know who operates the world.
I think the 2 Kingdom ‘scholars’ you may be looking at are more on the end of denial of the doctrine, than advocates.
MLD,
The doctrine you describe may be distinct to Lutherans, but if it doesn’t stand up to the full counsel of Scripture, then it doesn’t amount to diddly-squat. I’m regret that so far I’m not persuaded.
“I think the 2 Kingdom ‘scholars’ you may be looking at are more on the end of denial of the doctrine, than advocates.” MLD, that’s just plain laziness. If you don’t have time to engage the topic, then why jump in? Here’s a quote directly from the Wiki article you linked above:
“In that sermon he [Luther] states that the wordly (left hand) Kingdom includes everything we can see and do in our bodies. This fully and especially includes whatever is done in the church. This is taught so that it is clear that in the Heavenly (right hand) Kingdom, the only thing that is included there is alone faith in Christ. “Christ alone” and “faith alone” are Lutheran slogans that are reflected in this way.” See where the church is placed?
When I research a doctrine, I read all sides, beginning with the supporters. And I select a variety of sources as a check. If you can’t acknowledge the diversity of interpretations from within the supporting scholars of 2 kingdoms, then perhaps you are not engaging the topic on a serious level.
Jean,
“This fully and especially includes whatever is done in the church.”
You will need to explain why you find this problematic. I don’t think that myself nor Luther have made the kingdoms anything other than what God does – we don’t include what man does at all. Look at my previous posts or other places that I have spoken on this topic – I have said that the sole purpose of God’s acts in the right hand kingdom are to forgive sin. Whatever I do in church is left hand kingdom stuff. As president of my congregation I am doing zero right hand work – all left hand – church government is just that – government.
As to proper engagement, you do realize that those who have come after Luther hold differing views – the Calvinists for example see it differently – and that some, as we have seen in the beginning of the discussion (the reason I originally brought it up) use the terminology with no knowledge to the original thought, but what pop Christianity has attached to the terms.
“I guess that’s what makes Lutherans distinct – we see God in control. The doctrine of a God who has lost control or stands on the outside while man mediates is foreign to us.”
I know a lot of “sovereignists”, and I’m one of them. Fully trusting in the God who actively rules everything does not make me passive. I was the kid in school grabbing the bully’s attention so he’d leave the weak alone. it’s how I’m wired, and i think it’s from God. If I’m standing up to the powerful, I’m doing what I think God wants me to do. At the same time, I’m hoping that He’ll stop me if I’m wrong.
The tough part is assessing success or failure, as they may not be accurate determiners.
Anyone else spotted Tripp’s recent announcement
No, Wenta… post it
Jim,
“I guess that’s what makes Lutherans distinct – we see God in control. ”
I was tweaking Jean. … or was I twerking? 😉
http://paultripp.com/articles/posts/mars-hill-boaa-statement
Jim,
“I know a lot of “sovereignists”, and I’m one of them. Fully trusting in the God who actively rules everything does not make me passive.”
You are in good company and may be totally correct. How do confront these questions:
1) Does God ever withhold or suspend His sovereignty to give humans free will?
I will give you two examples:
“Then the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry, and why is your expression downcast? Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate you, but you must subdue it’” (Gen 4:6-7).
“’This commandment I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it too remote. It is not in heaven, as though one must say, ‘Who will go up to heaven to get it for us and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?’ And it is not across the sea, as though one must say, ‘Who will cross over to the other side of the sea and get it for us and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?’ For the thing is very near you—it is in your mouth and in your mind so that you can do it” (Deut 30:11-14).
2) If God rules everything, is He responsible for the evil in the world?
3) Did God create humans to fulfill a function on earth (as His image bearers), which he allows us the free will to accomplish or fail at?
Appreciate your thoughts!
MLD,
“I was tweaking Jean. … or was I twerking?”
Please, no twerking!
God’s sovereignty does not require him to control every event. A king reigns and rules but does not control his subjects.
It amazes me that churches still ask outsiders onto their boards. I think Paul Tripp showed a lack of judgment by accepting in the first place. His reply should have been, “you can’t find some guys & gals in a 12,000 member church to hold you accountable?”
I agree with MLD’s 121.
God in His sovereignty gives people moral agency….choices that matter. They are not contradictory ideas.
I use the example of parenting. I tell my child that if he does his homework and cleans his room by the time I get home, we will go out to the baseball game. If he does not, then we won’t.
My perfect will is that he does what I ask and we enjoy a fun night together. My permissive will is that we stay home because he does not do it – but in both cases MY will is being done, I am sovereign. There is no allowance for him to disobey my demand AND experience the positive result…because I do not allow it.
#120 and #123,
Ok, if we take these definitions (BDs and Steve’s) and we incorporate them into the 2 kingdoms doctrine, can we say that God reveals his perfect will to the governing authority of the secular kingdom, but gives that authority moral agency (i.e., he doesn’t control the authority)?
If the answer is “yes”, then by who or by what means does God reveal his perfect will to the governing authority? Could we say by or through the church (or individual Christians)? If not, and perhaps we can’t apply this hypothesis to a non-Christian country such as Iran, is there a natural law that everyone is responsible for knowing?
Jean,
Didn’t God have his will fulfilled through the wicked governments of Rome? It spread the Church worldwide and the Neros did not have a clue.
” Could we say by or through the church (or individual Christians)?” No, because then you wouldn’t have the 2 kingdoms, you would have only one.
Just look at how the brutal conquests of Alexander the Great were used to create the language of the New Testament and the cultural environment for it to spread in the perfect period of time, the fullness of time as it were….
#125,
“Didn’t God have his will fulfilled through the wicked governments of Rome? It spread the Church worldwide and the Neros did not have a clue.”
In answer to your first question, no, I think God fulfilled his will through the church, through which Christ defeated the whore of Babylon.
“‘Could we say by or through the church (or individual Christians)?’ No, because then you wouldn’t have the 2 kingdoms, you would have only one.'”
This is where I think the 2 kingdoms paradigm may be at its weakest. I’m not seeing how God reveals or exercises his will in His earthly kingdom.
I’m not seeing how God reveals or exercises his will in His earthly kingdom.
——————————————————-
Jean, do you think the 1st Amendment freedom of religion is a good thing in our Constitution, for our nation, through our history and ultimately has been as a model for other nations (that have embraced it). That the 1st Amendment is a good thing for human government in the eyes of God? Especially given the history of the Middle Ages from which it sprung.
It follows then that God must have had a hand in something good. Sinful men did not do anything good, and Satan surely is not the source.
But as we know, God does not support the 1st Amendment when it comes to the spiritual kingdom. God does not encourage the worship of other gods, and is not even neutral towards it either. I make this point often when people get a little too excited about America being “God’s country” – God would not have written the 1st Amendment. But it is a great thing for a nation to be governed by in this fallen world.
#128,
Steve, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but to learn. There’s a doctrine being promoted by MLD (and possibly by you?), in which God purportedly rules perfectly over His earthly kingdom. Now, as you know, Christ’s kingdom is never bifurcated into left and right hand kingdoms in the Bible, so I’m trying to wrap my arms around this doctrine to see if it is something I could affirm.
When I look at the full body of the Constitution, including, but not limited to, the 1st Amendment, I see that it reflects some Christian principles and provides a good environment for the practice and spread of Christianity. But I don’t think we would have the Constitution that we have unless we had founders who were influenced by Christian principles. Thus, I keep coming back to the idea that Christians and churches today have a mission (or as Barth puts it, a “service”) to the government to influence it in the direction of the will of God, at least in certain respects.
I think we never stop being a Christian and using our influence in whatever we are doing, including drafting a document to govern a new nation.
As far as the bifurcation, Paul seemed to make a point about our citizenship being in heaven (significant that those words were written to Phillippi which had special citizenship privileges in the Roman Empire). At the same time, he called on his earthly citizenship legal rights as a Roman citizen when it was necessary and helpful for him to do so.
Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.
I don’t know how much alliance MLD and I have on this. I view the 2-kingdom aspect more along the lines of, for example, not feeling a Christian conviction or sin against taking an oath when called to jury duty. That I can recite the Pledge of Allegiance without guilt and conviction because I am certainly not surrendering my Christianity to the state through the pledge. That love of country does not diminish love of God.
(By the way…I think there are four aspects to God’s kingdom found in Scripture. And that’s what I teach. 🙂 )
“Thus, I keep coming back to the idea that Christians and churches today have a mission (or as Barth puts it, a “service”) to the government to influence it in the direction of the will of God, at least in certain respects.”
I thought that was Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson who said that. 🙂
In that case, you have a theology of one kingdom working to gobble up the other. Most fear the government getting the upper hand, but what you and Barth are saying is that Christians should make the government indistinguishable from the church.
“what you and Barth are saying is that Christians should make the government indistinguishable from the church.”
MLD, now you are twerking. Stop that for heaven’s sake 🙂
Jesus says in a couple of places that the government is on it’s own and with his blessing and never says anything to “shape” that government. Paul did the same – because God is using government for a completely different reason than he is using the church..
“Give unto Caesar…”
Speaking to Pilate “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.”
In that case, you have a theology of one kingdom working to gobble up the other.
——————————————————–
Nonsense. Falwell and Robertson (to use your examples) did not advocate eliminating the 1st Amendment for example…to oppose abortion is not to seek to gobble up a kingdom, anymore than opposition to segregation would be.
Actually, your argument sounds like those professing Catholic politicians who want to keep getting reelected in their districts (and getting campaign donations from certain special interests) who talk about their “personal” opposition to abortion as sinful but resist any and all changes in the law that might actually reduce a few abortions in America – and proceed to villify their Christian opposition.
Surely Luther did not advocate keeping your Christian convictions away from your civic responsibilities and opportunities….
#133,
Those analogies only take you so far. Jesus and Paul were dealing with Empire. What we have today is a republic. It’s apples and oranges.
The whole Israel project, which the church inherited, was to be a royal priesthood, to bring blessing to the nations, to be salt and light. So, I see the church’s mission a little broader than you do.
“The whole Israel project, which the church inherited, was to be a royal priesthood, to bring blessing to the nations, to be salt and light. So, I see the church’s mission a little broader than you do.”
I think if I read that correctly, I am to be salt and light and a blessing to the nations wherever I am, not forcing my way into the halls of congress. I am salt and light right here in my office.
I am salt and light right here in my office.
———————————————
Depends what you are doing…..He also told us about the light under the bushel and the salt that lost its savor…
Steve,
Do you really think that “civic responsibilities and opportunities’ goes as far as running government the “way God would want it run – or the issues God would have come before the legislature?”
Do you vote for the guy who says “God wants this done and I am going to Washington to make sure it gets done!”
Steve, that can happen sitting around in a church building all day. 😉
MLD
It’s been a very long day, but no my comment on two kingdoms isn’t what you thought at all. But I stand by my comment that the doctrine probably is a result of people observing the differences and injustice of the world. Many scream quickly, in all generations BTW, “how can a loving god….”
Now I have no comment, kind of, about your heartless stab at Morks death.
Bob,
I made no heartless comment about Mork’s death – my comment was about all those in the same situation who get no adulation or even condolences.
There was an article about a month ago that mentioned in passing that Robin Williams suffered from depression and had gone off his meds. How many others who are not famous get no mention?
MLD’s #141
Which is exactly how I understood it..
141, It’s called a legacy. People mourn Williams’ death because he affected them. He did it by the millions.
We have gone astray of the 2 kingdoms – which is fine – but I think I have figured out the difference in the latter conversation … definitions.
When Steve asks – “Surely Luther did not advocate keeping your Christian convictions away from your civic responsibilities and opportunities….” he is thinking in terms of politics, voting, legislation.
I am thinking that my civic responsibilities and opportunities relate to vocation as a citizen, working in the left hand kingdom, the civil realm – which equates to stopping at red lights, to care for those in the community, to coach Little League, to stand up to bad people who may be bothering the ladies in the marketplace, etc.
Steve,
“who talk about their “personal” opposition to abortion as sinful but resist any and all changes in the law that might actually reduce a few abortions in America ”
Is there anything that you are personally opposed to but would refrain from legislating against if you were in office?
Is there anything that you are personally opposed to but would refrain from legislating against if you were in office?
————————————————————–
Of course. If I were in office, my oath would be to the Constitution. As I already stated, sometimes the Constitution differs from Christian beliefs – the 1st Amendment being the most obvious example.
As far as your #138 – it’s obviously not about people throwing God’s name out. All I said one takes their Christian faith with them 24/7.
If I am a businessowner, do I break laws, bribe officials, lie about my products (or competition)? Even if all my competition does?
Does your view of the 2 kingdoms mean anything goes for the Christian when he is in the community? (Of course not)
That is all I am saying. Why is there a difference between wanting to coach little league and running for the local school board or city council?
I am not ONLY talking about politics and legislation, but I am certainly not excluding them from the sphere of our Christian influence.
I only brought up about the “personally opposed” because you were throwing that in the face of Catholic legislators (I am sure Biden and Pelosi) – but the fact is, you can be opposed to something and not legislate it.
About the voting / politics vs coaching little league – I brought that up because i realized we were looking in different directions when it came to civic responsibility
You’re cool – carry on .:-) .
but the fact is, you can be opposed to something and not legislate it.
—————————————–
Yes. And the fact is one can be full of hot air and say meaningless words to appease people they need to dupe…..and yes, that is a bipartisan fact.
A petition about the current situation in Iraq.
http://iraqrescue.org/
MLD
Does the fact that men have a greater suicide rate than woman, that death from suicide is I believe double or more than homicide mean much? No, until it happen to some we personally know.
Robin Williams is some one we all personally know and love through his characters. When you point out the hard facts of anything you devalue the feelings of those who have been hit with great sadness of hearing about Robin Williams and his choice to end his life.
He is an icon to many and your facts fall into the same category as telling anyone who is suffering , “welcome to the crowd.” Grow some sensitivity.
I have had more than one friend and acquaintance who has chosen to end his life and you don’t know a one of them. Do you think you could join us by sharing in corporate grief over Robin Williams, Mork , and those people many of us know personally who did the same?
Here is my problem with the petition;
“It is imperative that the United States and the international community act immediately and decisively to stop the ISIS/ISIL genocide and prevent the further victimization of religious minorities.”
And then the mention of the International community is heard no more.
Why don’t they just call for UN and NATO action and leave it at that? Why single out the US?
BTW where is Michael? In light of the news, now Lauren B’d death also, I hope he is doing well.
Steve MLD no I do not think that is about your churches, nor most churches, just some of the really noisy ones.
Idol worship – man worship. Some of you are funny. You knew him personally through his work??? come on – talk about living in fantasy land..
Is there such a thing as corporate grief?
As for Michael, I thought he went on a trip, he left town Friday and said he wouldn’t be online. I hope he lied to us and is really at a week long training session for his new job. 🙂
Bob,
“Does the fact that men have a greater suicide rate than woman, that death from suicide is I believe double or more than homicide mean much?”
I always tell people – “Life is hard – a good amount of that time life is crap.” I am actually surprised that everyone doesn’t eventually kill themselves.
So we picked up a new infielder from the Cubs named Darwin Barney. He is playing his 1st game with us tonight and doing very well. Here is the question – can a Christian root for a guy named Darwin?
No one owes anyone else an explanation for why they are feeling a loss when someone dies!
I have mostly good memories of young childhood, and remembering Mork and Mindy takes me back there a moment.
Great memories of college friends – including seeing (and several reruns) of Good Morning Vietnam and Robin Williams HBO specials
3 straight weeks of insurance school in Malibu at Pepperdine right after college graduation with a whole bunch of fun people that went from strangers to close friends with all the sunset beach volleyball, and every evening out – one of which was seeing Dead Poets Society together in the theater. My nickname the rest of the time was “O Captain, my Captain”
I remember enjoying Awakenings with my mom, during a short time I was living at home after college – we didn’t do much together, just the two of us, but we did on occasion watch a movie. That was a good one.
Laughing so much with my new bride at Mrs. Doubtfire, and then a couple years later laughing about as hard as I can remember during his two scenes in Nine Months. That movie had a huge cast but he stole the show in those scenes.
And as my son prepares for college applications and is driving around town now, I look back to when he was still only 8 years old, and Dad was tossing him around the community swimming pool to come back to the house and watch RV together. And then how a couple years ago when “bored” with the grandparents, we got excited to see RV was rerunning that night and watching it again in the hotel.
MLD….I think my little synopsis is what Bob was getting at. And I am sure just about everyone here has their own review like mine, unique to their lives.
#155,
“I always tell people – ‘Life is hard – a good amount of that time life is crap.’ I am actually surprised that everyone doesn’t eventually kill themselves.”
That outlook on life is understandable for the person who believes that Romans 7 describes the Christian life. A life resigned to slavery to sin, to a “wretched” state of being. How could one not but despair that the Holy Spirit dwelling within the Christian is ultimately powerless to make a difference in the life of the Christian, that prayer is ultimately powerless to make a difference in the life of the Christian.
I just don’t buy that interpretation of Romans 7.
MLD:
I know one thing for sure, I don’t have a gift as a counselor, but you have proven one thing to me; there’s hope for my counseling skills.
As far as Michael goes; he is a man who confesses being depresses and yet he has a huge number of followers who listen to him. Does that make his depression any less real?
Yes life’s tough, but it’s the only one God’s given to us. Bless Him!
PS. Steve, good explanation!
I am just presenting it for people’s perusal MLD.
Sign or don’t sign.
The next time you see the international community doing something in response to aggression without us doing it first get back to me.
As for me, I actually know the Kurds need some help.
They have been steadfast in support with us and it would be a crappy thing to do to leave them to their own devices.
Like I said, sign it or don’t sign it.
Derek,
I wasn’t critical of the help request of the petition – but if people continually come to the US first, they are side stepping the international community – the UN and NATO which are set up for this very purpose.
Bob,
I don’t know how you turned a conversation into Michael being depressed – but I am sure that you had a reason.
Jean,
Go out and interview people who live in miserable conditions or who face daily demons and survey how many even have an opinion of Romans 7.
Do you ever discuss anything without tossing in a Bible verse. I’ll bet you are a barrel of fun at a Super Bowl party.;-)
MLD:
Do you ever take time to feel something for anyone but you? All your comments tend to be flipped remarks and eventually come back to how you and your doctrines are correct.
Or even better things like this one:
“I’ll bet you are a barrel of fun at a Super Bowl party.;-)”
Oh well, night!
Anybody hear the W. African countries are protesting not getting the new Ebola vaccine. I fine this strange as well. As soon as they saw it ” worked”, give or take, I would expect the San Diego company would have gone full tilt on its production. Even if there are issues with the vaccine still be working out, the alternative is death. Also, I would of expected government(s) to drop some big cash on the company to increase production.
I also find it funny the mystery US patient with Ebola was not told he had it until he asked. They did not offer up the info. He saw the news story and decided to ask.
With the Africa death toll approaching 1000, I wonder if this outbreak is bigger than we are being told.
Bob,
You spent the evening lecturing me that my view of Robin Williams death was wrong and yours was right.
Especially comical because if you go back and read my comments, I made no mention of RW, his death or depression.
I spoke only of the one’s who have no condolences and I spoke of people’s reactions.
…and my #156 was a baseball comment – you could have said something there.
MLD is a kind, loving, grandfatherly figure.
With a juvenile need to still be dangerous.
So he maintains a nasty online persona, because it is so much cheaper than buying a little sports car.
Who am I to judge ….
🙂
This caught me a bit off guard. Vicky Beeching comes out of the closet.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/vicky.beeching.on.coming.out.god.has.walked.me.through.this.hand.in.hand/39636.htm